CBC reports settlement between government and Arar

[Fortunata]

Twelve point five in final compensation. But truthfully, like the new child care allowance, a goodly portion will be clawed back by taxes. Maybe we should proceed this discussion by the net amount Arar will receive.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Twelve point five in final compensation. But truthfully, like the new child care allowance, a goodly portion will be clawed back by taxes. Maybe we should proceed this discussion by the net amount Arar will receive.

Is there anything you won't turn into an attack on the Choice in Childcare program?

Good decision by the Government. Maybe Arar didn't really deserve so much, but it would have cost them huge dollars had they tried to fight him in court.

It is income. It should be taxed.

[guyser]

Somewhere mikedavid is in a white coat with lots of buckles and a padded room going stark raving mad at this.

That or trying to get the Gov to send him to the US and then syria.

[Who's Doing What?]

Somewhere mikedavid is in a white coat with lots of buckles and a padded room going stark raving mad at this.

That or trying to get the Gov to send him to the US and then syria.

True enough.

[Fortunata]

Is there anything you won't turn into an attack on the Choice in Childcare program?

I actually haven't attacked this program much. Mostly it speaks for itself .i.e. what you get on the surface is not what you put into your pocket.

Other than that how it must gall Steve to utter an apology since the Conservatives were so convicting without proof re: Arar in the beginning. A little humble pie there Steve? But he got his licks in about the Liberals saying this happened under the last government, which indeed it did. But didn't it come out that Zacardelli hadn't briefed the government before Arar was deported? Is Steve inferring that the government should have hands on influence and/or direction over RCMP business? I thought that this was not allowed. Did Steve try to deliberately make something out of what isn't? Is it because Steve does not keep the RCMP business at arms length? So many questions so little answers.

[Black Dog]

$10mil? How do they justify such a large sum?

They figure that's what he would have recieved had his suit gone forward.

We have no responsibility for a dual citizen in their home nation IMO.

What about responsibility for our own citizens? After all it's not as if Maher Arar ever demonstrated any desire to be regarded as a Syrian citizen.

If Syria came and invaded Canada to 'liberate' one of their citizens, it'd be unacceptable. Why do we expect Canada to do the same?

Bad analogy. Canada had a hand in sending Arar to Syria in the first place.

August1991

They're not spending their own money. It's very easy to be generous with other people's money.

You and I had nothing to do with this but you and I are the ones who are going to pay for it.

By rights, the people who made this mistake (assuming there was a mistake) should have to pay for it.

Does the governmnet represent us and act, theroretically at least, according to our interests?

The precedent is doubly bad. It's an invitation for people to seek compensation. (How many people are wrongfully held in Canadian prisons pending trial and then found innocent?)

And this is a problem why? Oh an there's a difference between being wrongfully held and being held pending trial. Being held until innocence or guilt casn be determined is part of a process that was denied to Arar.

It's an invitation for government employees to commit errors without personal penalty. (How many health care bureaucrats can simply refuse to reimburse medical treatment received abroad?)

I agree that those individuals involved should bear some personal responsibility. But their actions must be viewed in the context of their role as representatives of the Canadian government, which is us.

I never did anything wrong to Mr. Arar. Why should I have to pay a dime?

Because Arar's deportation etc was done on your behalf.

[hiti]

Can Steve be anymore disgusting? The following was included with his apology:

Although these events occurred under the last government, please rest assured that this government will do everything in its power to ensure…

And that after what he said in 2002 chastising John Manley for defending Arar, whom Harper called "a suspected terrorist":

While the minister participated in high level consultations to defend a suspected terrorist, it apparently took a trip by the U.S. Secretary of State for the minister to admit what he really knew.

Good ole USA, ah Stevie?

And the mouth Diane Ablonczy went even further:

Mr. Speaker, it is time the Liberals told the truth: that their system of screening and security checks is pathetic. Arar was given dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship by the government. It did not pick up on his terrorist links and the U.S. had to clue it in.

How is it that the U.S. could uncover this man's background so quickly when the government's screening system failed to find his al-Qaeda links?

..

Mr. Speaker, the government needs to take responsibility for what it is doing to protect Canadian security. The fact is that these Liberals were asleep at the switch. Arar was not properly checked. Instead, the government ran around chastising the U.S. for sending Arar back to Syria, where he is also a citizen. Why is it that the Liberal security system is so weak here that they overlook vital information that the U.S. picked up on a routine check?

"THIS" is what our government has come to........... This PM has absolutely no scruples and this use of Arar to gain political points is absolutely the most disgusting thing I've ever seen in the dirt of politics.

And some wonder why people find this "new" government to be so despicable.

[Leafless]

Good decision by the Government. Maybe Arar didn't really deserve so much, but it would have cost them huge dollars had they tried to fight him in court.

Money to the government spent in court, especially when trying to set a precedent, really means nothing to government.

I believe the government would have won regardless.

This was all about minority votes....Muslim votes.

I also find this horribly despicable.

[guyser]

I believe the government would have won regardless.

This was all about minority votes....Muslim votes.

I also find this horribly despicable.

Yes and the Gov felt the same way, thats why they paid off Arar???

Well then , by some estimates this has cost the gov in excess of $30M so lets hope they get those votes right?

Damned if they do, damned if they dont. The advisors to the Gov said "here are the facts, and the facts do not look good, at trial we will lose and if a jury decides the penalty then we are screwed.They will go for the moon"

Do you find it equally horrible when you have a useless capital project built in your riding?

[jdobbin]

I have no idea if the money is more or less for what should be paid as compensation. The government was in the wrong and in this, I'll accept what their advisers told them was adequate.

[guyser]

I have no idea if the money is more or less for what should be paid as compensation. The government was in the wrong and in this, I'll accept what their advisers told them was adequate.

Oh please , there you go again , inserting rationality into these debates .

[August1991]

If I can play devil's advocate here...

If you own a car, everytime someone else crashes, you pay money through insurance. Doctors have malpractice insurance to protect them financially from mistakes, and we all pay for it. One could argue that the people responsible were in a position (much like doctors) where the potential for mistakes can happen. Would you feel better if the government paid for some sort of malpractice insurance for government employees, which would cover a situation like this?

That's not a position of the devil. It's perfectly reasonable.

In theory, civil servants should pay the "premium" for their "liability insurance" through lower salaries (compared to what equivalent employees in the private sector earn). They don't.

But worse, anyone makes a claim usually pays a deductible and sees their premiums go up.

IOW, insurance doesn't absolve one of suffering teh consequences of one's actions. In the Arar case, all that I've seen is that Zaccardelli resigned, taking early retirement.

Consider for example the consular official who saw Arar in prison in Damascus. Or how about the CSIS/RCMP agents who concluded that Arar was a risk. How many civil servants made mistakes in this case? Will they suffer in any tangible way, appropriate to the mistake they made?

What kind of driver would you be if you had zero deductible and your premiums never changed even if you made a claim?

Good for him. Might be a bit much but nothing one can do.

Guyser, it is almost terrifying how easily you can agree to take money from one anonymous person and give it to someone else. It is hard to imagine a more arbitrary use of power.

I agree though that compensation of that size is way over the board. Let's not forget that though it was wrong for the RCMP to send this wrong information, it's the americans who sent him to Syria.

It was the American government that sent him to Syria, not teh Canadian government. And it appears now that American government was acting on its own information and using its own judgment. It's not obvious at all that the Canadian government is to blame.

[guyser]

Good for him. Might be a bit much but nothing one can do.

Guyser, it is almost terrifying how easily you can agree to take money from one anonymous person and give it to someone else. It is hard to imagine a more arbitrary use of power.

It was the American government that sent him to Syria, not teh Canadian government. And it appears now that American government was acting on its own information and using its own judgment. It's not obvious at all that the Canadian government is to blame.

I do not see it as terrifying at all. This man was wronged by his govt, and they saw fit to alert the US authorities knowing that full well in this day and age something along the lines of incarceration would occur.They did not have due diligence done on Arar, and thats when they should have shut up.

They didn't and they paid. And in all likelyhood they got off cheap, otherwise they should have gone to court .But they didnt.

[August1991]

Was Steven Marshall tortured? Did he and his family live in fear that he would be killed in prison?

Mulroney got $2 million for libel and taxpayers paid for it too. On top of that 15 years later it seems that he was worthy of the accusations. Was his suffering worth $2 million?

And what exactly did you in particular pay for? Do your taxes exceed the part of your education costs that the government covers? How about other services you use?

The name is Simon Marshall, not Steven. My error.

If you look at the article linked, Marshall was imprisoned from 1997-2003. This is how his lawyer described the ordeal:

Marshall's lawyer, Jean-Paul Michaud, told CBC News that his client went through "hell" in prison because of his handicap, and because of the nature of the crimes he was accused of committing.

"Think of the worst, and that's what Simon lived through," Marshall said.

Arar is a functioning member of society and can give press conferences. Simon Marshall lives in an institution and wants nothing to do with the media. His parents wanted the money to ensure that he can live decently when they are too old to care for him.

But as I noted above, it is inhuman to compare these two horrific stories. Ignoring the amounts, in both cases, taxpayers will pay and civil servants will escape any penalty - hiding behind the institution of the State.

I coudl say the same about Mulroney's judgment although that seems to have been more politically motivated.

And Saturn, how much was my share of this $10 million to Arar? About 30 cents. That's what makes it terrifying. It is so easy for Stephen Harper to take 30 cents from every Canadian and give it to one person of his choosing.

I do not see it as terrifying at all. This man was wronged by his govt, and they saw fit to alert the US authorities knowing that full well in this day and age something along the lines of incarceration would occur.

You have a different view of government than I do.

When a government employee commits an offense, why should I, a taxpayer, suffer all the consequences?

They're not spending their own money. It's very easy to be generous with other people's money.

You and I had nothing to do with this but you and I are the ones who are going to pay for it.

By rights, the people who made this mistake (assuming there was a mistake) should have to pay for it.

Does the governmnet represent us and act, theroretically at least, according to our interests?

As I posted above, I guess you and I have a different view of government and government employees. You see them as Godlike and I see them as human beings.

The precedent is doubly bad. It's an invitation for people to seek compensation. (How many people are wrongfully held in Canadian prisons pending trial and then found innocent?)

And this is a problem why? Oh an there's a difference between being wrongfully held and being held pending trial. Being held until innocence or guilt casn be determined is part of a process that was denied to Arar.

BD, my point was that many people are held in pre-trial dentention in Canada either without bail or because they can't make bail. When they are found innocent, does the State (taxpayers) compensate them?

Or, another example. Revenue Canada often causes hardship to people by over-collecting taxes that are later refunded - again, without compensation for the hardship.

(Or think of Duplessis's orphans or residential schools.)

These are just a few of the ways in which government employees wrongly impose costs on innocent people. These people now have every reason to seek redress. If successful, it is taxpayers who will pay for these errors.

[August1991]

What is my take on this payment?

It's political hush money. The Tories are buying peace. Arar will now disappear from the front pages. The Tories did not want a long drawn out court case.

You'll notice something else. Arar's legal fees are around $2 million and these will also be paid by the government (in addition to the $10 million). This verges on a contingency fee. The lawyers were smart and there's no doubt government payment of their legal fees was non-negotiable.

----

I also think the long-arm of Brian Mulroney can be found behind this decision of Harper. Mulroney pardoned the Japanese and arranged payouts. I think it's Mulroney's generous Irish soul. Or Mulroney's belief that the Tories must buy their way to Natural Governing Party status.

I'm sure that Mulroney advised Harper to do it for political reasons and Harper reasoned that it was cheaper to pay now rather than fight and pay more later.

----

A country whose citizens spend their time arguing and suing each other over past grievances is a country where nobody thinks really about producing anything. It is a country of moochers.

The injustices of this world are legion. If the Canadian government tries to correct them, it will soon find that all its energies will be consumed in doing nothing but.

[jdobbin]

The injustices of this world are legion. If the Canadian government tries to correct them, it will soon find that all its energies will be consumed in doing nothing but.

I think that the government should correct the errors they are directly and utterly responsible for. This is one such case.

Also, you mentioned a "pardon" for Japanese Canadians. It was no such thing. It was compensation for imprisonment (including children) and theft of property.

[jbg]

No question, the settlement is disgusting.

Having said that, I'll give you my insight as a practicing attorney, albeit one not licensed anywhere by in New York, and thus not entitled to give an opinion on legal matters. I am commenting as an informed citizen.

Settlements are guided, basically, by what courts are deemed likely, by each party, to do if the matter is litigated. Arer's attorney knows the strengths and weaknesses of his client's case, as does the Crown's. Typically, settlements are at a midpoint of both clients' counsel's expectations, with some discount or premium for uncertainty, prompt payment, etc.

Since the government would have no choice by to pay out any award, as ultimately fixed on appeal, the government's choice may have been extremely rational. I have simply no way of knowing personally what factors went into the mix. Crucial to note is that in litigation involving solely private parties, there is a nonpayment risk not present where a principal defendant is the Crown.

[August1991]

Crucial to note is that in litigation involving solely private parties, there is a nonpayment risk not present where a principal defendant is the Crown.

IOW, Arar's lawyers knew that Stephen Harper had direct access to the bank accounts of 30 million Canadians.

That changes the negotiating tactics.

For a mere $12 million of other people's money, Stephen Harper has bought political peace. For now.

[August1991]

Maher Arar asked for the impossible: “I wish I could buy my life back.”

G & M

"Buy my life back?"

What about Steven Truscott? Did he receive 10 million dollars? Did he receive such quick justice? Did he have access to lawyers who could negotiate contingency fees?

Steven Truscott is not of political interest to Stephen Harper.

[geoffrey]

They figure that's what he would have recieved had his suit gone forward.

No, it's a pretty number the CPC can point to in an election.

On what basis can you award $10mil. Canada was contributory to his deportation, but that's where it ends. I say lost wages and perhaps a cushy government job for him. What else does he deserve?

I certainly didn't participate in his torture, why am I being effectively sued and paying a settlement for it.

If the individuals at the RCMP were responsible, they should be paying, not us.

The torture also would be tough to prove in court. There is absolutely zero evidence. In fact, the numerous times he was visisted by the Red Cross and consular staff without protest is evidence to the contrary.

He remembers the exact dates in times of the beatings in his recollection of events. I call bullshit on that.

What about responsibility for our own citizens? After all it's not as if Maher Arar ever demonstrated any desire to be regarded as a Syrian citizen.

A Syrian is subject to the laws of Syria while in his country. Again, like I said, if it were the other way around and a Syrian-Canadian were charged in Canada, I'd say Syria has no business in what happens.

Again, if individuals at the RCMP made up false claims about Mr. Arar then they should be punished and pay compensation. Not me. I had nothing to do with this.

Bad analogy. Canada had a hand in sending Arar to Syria in the first place.

No. Canada did not. Some corrupt individuals at the RCMP did. No elected official had a hand in this, you didn't have a hand in this, nor did I. So why are we paying as much as those at the RCMP that made the errors?

Remember the Americans deported him within the law back to a country of citizenship. Why have American courts rejected his claims but our govenrment settled outright when we are far less liable than the Americans or the Syrians that are alleged to have tortured him.

He sued in Canada because he could win. Not because we're the ones to blame.

Does the governmnet represent us and act, theroretically at least, according to our interests?

Yes. This wasn't a government policy though. This was the *possibly* criminal actions of a few intelligence officers/police.

And this is a problem why? Oh an there's a difference between being wrongfully held and being held pending trial. Being held until innocence or guilt casn be determined is part of a process that was denied to Arar.

Again, not by policy, but by the actions of a few crooked cops.

I agree that those individuals involved should bear some personal responsibility. But their actions must be viewed in the context of their role as representatives of the Canadian government, which is us.

If a Canadian diplomat kills a foreign in a hit and run, would you serve a portion of his jail time because he was acting on your behalf? Eventually the one that acted inappropriately should pay the price IMO... long before I pay it for him.

Because Arar's deportation etc was done on your behalf.

Wrong yet again. It was done on the behalf of the government of the United States on the advice of a crooked cop who happened to be Canadian.

I think that the government should correct the errors they are directly and utterly responsible for. This is one such case.

You and BD simply don't get it. This wasn't a decision of the government, especially not ours. This was an American decision done upon some faulty advice from a misguided Canadian cop.

[Remiel]

Didn't Milgaard get twenty two million, one for every year he spent in prison?

[jdobbin]

You and BD simply don't get it. This wasn't a decision of the government, especially not ours. This was an American decision done upon some faulty advice from a misguided Canadian cop.

I doubt that the government would have won on that argument in court.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Our government handed over one of our own citizens to a foreign power. That citizen was literally tortured due to the actions of our government. In my opinion the focus should be on the process that let a political decision impact the life of a citizen to such a degree. What have we become?

If the man was guilty of anything, our governments responsibility was to utilize our justice system to address the problem. In this case the citizen was only accused and then given over to a foreign power. Our government failed in its responsibility to tyhis citizen, and in that regard ten million is peanuts.

[geoffrey]

You and BD simply don't get it. This wasn't a decision of the government, especially not ours. This was an American decision done upon some faulty advice from a misguided Canadian cop.

I doubt that the government would have won on that argument in court.

I doubt the government has the right to settle this without taking it to court. Arar wouldn't have been awarded his entire demand. He likely would have been awarded far less as long as we didn't have an activist judge.

Why is he unable to work now, that's my other question. He's taking PhD studies full time and making press conferences. The guy can work, he just wanted a nice big torture bonus from the government, something else that would never have stood up in court (due to the fact there is no evidence other than him saying so that he was tortured).

The government could call all of the consular staff, the Red Cross people, whoever, to testify that he never made a claim of torture or ever appears to have been tortured... until he talked to his lawyers in Canada.

Our government handed over one of our own citizens to a foreign power. That citizen was literally tortured due to the actions of our government. In my opinion the focus should be on the process that let a political decision impact the life of a citizen to such a degree. What have we become?

Your wrong. The US government handed over a Syrian citizen to the powers of his national government. It was completley under the law, a deportation order should be made to the country where that person holds citizenship, which just happens to be Syria in the case of Arar.

Sure he held Canadian citizenship too, but that's not an issue in the deportation. The US is free as a sovereign country to deport people within the confines of international law to legal destinations. And they did.

If the man was guilty of anything, our governments responsibility was to utilize our justice system to address the problem. In this case the citizen was only accused and then given over to a foreign power. Our government failed in its responsibility to tyhis citizen, and in that regard ten million is peanuts.

He wasn't in our country. He made the choice to go the US after associating with terrorist related people and holding the citizenship of an enemy nation of the United States. I have very very little sympathy for someone so reckless. And even less for someone with no real proof of torture.

Good ridance Arar, I had nothing to do with your affair yet I'll pay the price. The settlement is too high anyways, maybe a $1mil total for his lost wages and then some resettlement money.

We didn't torture him. We didn't even deport him. We did nothing. A few crooked cops made a false claim to the US government. They should be responsible for the damage they caused, not I.

[Remiel]

I am constantly suprised by the vitriol spewed by some posters I otherwise like on this issue. Would you volunteer to go to Syria to be possible tortured for a year and maybe even killed for a measly $10 million?