O'Connor on the Afghan War

[weaponeer]

Canada was asked to be there, I am just stating why we could not be. Go to the DND website, look at our weapons sysytems, they cannot stand up to RG units, no way.

As for Romania, they have the capability to fight high intensity, they have modern Russian MBTs, and modern mech units. Japan has one of the most modern militaries in the world, we are not in their leauge.

Actually, I was in an AWACS over southern Iraq, so we did have small units there. There were Canadians "attached" or "on exchange" with US & UK units, in 1's & 2's.

Anyone that know's anything about militaries, various intensities of warfare, know's what I mean. CF cannot fight high intensity.

What ole Jean did, as I have stated in other posts is he increased our commitment to a-stan from an infantry battle group to a brigade HQ & BG. In doing this, the US was able to send 3/101st abn from a-stan to iraq.

The US asked, yes, jean said no, I am just stating why.... Iraq we could not handle, Afghanistan we can....

[Wilber]

Human Rights Watch

Amnesty Inter.

RAWA

UN

Afghan Observer

Read RAWA, wilbur find out how the Karzi government abuses women, and read how the elections were corrupt. Reaf Human Rights Watch see the autrocities occuring even now against women and how the elections were corrupt. This government and its puppet masters are doing worse Afghans think.

It doesn't matter if the world recognizes the government so much, as the actual people in the country recognizing it.

Now you do remember that al qaeda and Osama bin Laden, who are being blammed for 911, are NOT the Taliban, don't you? Though they were sympathetic to one another it is alleged.

Canadians reallly aren't about retribution and retribution for what? Being there is self defense? Hardly!

Also, O'Connor doesn't even have the guts to say we are there for the women and people of Afghanistan, if you read his words he said the Karzi government wants Canadians there.

HRW, Amnesty International and the UN all said that there were attempts by the Taliban and different war lords to influence the election through intimidation and violence. None of those organizations has said the elections were rigged.

Who are the Afghan Observer and the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan?

You have a country where there is no law and the only security is provided by too few foreign troops. Duh, what do you expect? They managed to have an election in spite of that. How many people would have the guts to go to the poles in this country if they thought there was a good chance to be assaulted or even murdered on the way? Would you? Give them some credit. You need real cojones to cast a vote in that country, particularly if you are a woman.

Women have a tough go in Afghanistan. I believe it but tougher than before? How would you improve that, give the place back to the Taliban? If you have ideas to make life better for Afghan women and children lets hear them because there are Canadians putting their lives on the line trying to do that right now.

Wikipedia

In 1996, Osama bin Laden moved to Afghanistan from Sudan. When the Taliban came to power, bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and his Al-Qaeda organization. It is understood that al-Qaeda-trained fighters known as the 055 Brigade were integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. The Taliban and bin Laden had very close connections, which were formalized by a marriage of one of bin Laden's sons to Omar's daughter. During Osama bin Laden's stay in Afghanistan, he had helped finance the Taliban.[8]

etc, etc.

[Catchme]

Canadians reallly aren't about retribution and retribution for what? Being there is self defense?

Also, O'Connor doesn't even have the guts to say we are there for the women and people of Afghanistan, if you read his words he said the Karzi government wants Canadians there.

HRW, Amnesty International and the UN all said that there were attempts by the Taliban and different war lords to influence the election through intimidation and violence. None of those organizations has said the elections were rigged.

Who are the Afghan Observer and the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan?

..Women have a tough go in Afghanistan. I believe it but tougher than before? How would you improve that, give the place back to the Taliban? If you have ideas to make life better for Afghan women and children lets hear them because there are Canadians putting their lives on the line trying to do that right now.

Yes, you just answered your question and supported my point. Those organizations told how the election was rigged. And who is in power in the Karzi goverent? The war lords! When you read RAWA you will see what the Karzi government war lords aka Northern Alliance, are doing to the women and children there.

RAWA is the voice of Afghanistan women, please do read their site, they have all the answers you need about what they feel and perceive will make their lives better and their childrens. It is NOT what I feel and perceive, unless I am using their words expressing how we in the world can help them. They say we can help them by getting out. 2 problems solved, our military will not have to put their lives on the line, and the Afghans would have what they want, foreigners out of their country.

Afghan Observer is a news blog devoted to observing what is going on in Afghanistan.

[tml12]

It is where BOTH Harper and Martin thought we should be. It is also where (although Chretien claimed he kept us out) the Liberals thought Canada should benefit from all the defense contracts.

When did Paul Martin want Canada in Iraq?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/

Make a logical conclusion for yourself.

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2459/35145

[weaponeer]

I have read all the links here, some good stuff.

However, I have said before, there's no way we could have or would have gone to Iraq. Our military simpley could not stand up toa head-on with RG div.

Our aircraft are old & outdated, they lack the modern secure radios & data link sytems. Our tanks are too old to go up against modern Russian tanks (Iraq had over 1000). At the time we lacked modern precision arty capability, we now have it.

We could have perhaps been used in the rear echelon, protecting supply convoys, or duncucting other RE duties, but not likely......

[weaponeer]

that's conducting RE duties, sorry, it's late:)

[tml12]

I have read all the links here, some good stuff.

However, I have said before, there's no way we could have or would have gone to Iraq. Our military simpley could not stand up toa head-on with RG div.

Our aircraft are old & outdated, they lack the modern secure radios & data link sytems. Our tanks are too old to go up against modern Russian tanks (Iraq had over 1000). At the time we lacked modern precision arty capability, we now have it.

We could have perhaps been used in the rear echelon, protecting supply convoys, or duncucting other RE duties, but not likely......

I agree weaponeer. It is exactly why I think we need the Conservatives to be in power for a LONG time to change the national myths of Canada to include a strong armed forces as part of the national dream of Canada.

[Canadian Blue]

RAWA is the voice of Afghanistan women, please do read their site, they have all the answers you need about what they feel and perceive will make their lives better and their childrens. It is NOT what I feel and perceive, unless I am using their words expressing how we in the world can help them. They say we can help them by getting out. 2 problems solved, our military will not have to put their lives on the line, and the Afghans would have what they want, foreigners out of their country.

As well as the Taliban back in power.

[weaponeer]

The CF is slowly coming back together, the new Chinooks, C17s (OH YEAH!!), new C130s, SAR aircraft, not bad. The new M777 arty guns, awesome. New maritime helos, well done, finally!!

We have a new ultra modern Air Defence system, BCS-F, the CF18 fleets is in statge 2 of the upgrade to take them to 2017, then we are getting JSF. Navy is doing great, despite fuel shortage, very modern.

there's still more work to be done, new tanks, attack helos would help. We need a capability to operate in the arctic in a big way.....

Future looks good.....

[Catchme]

I agree weaponeer. It is exactly why I think we need the Conservatives to be in power for a LONG time to change the national myths of Canada to include a strong armed forces as part of the national dream of Canada.

Why do we need a national dream of a strong armed forces?

[Remiel]

Is stupidity one of the valuable national myths you guys want us to value? We didn't want to go to Iraq because we didn't believe Bush's lies, AND BY GOD WE WERE RIGHT ABOUT THAT!

[Wilber]

Yes, you just answered your question and supported my point. Those organizations told how the election was rigged. And who is in power in the Karzi goverent? The war lords! When you read RAWA you will see what the Karzi government war lords aka Northern Alliance, are doing to the women and children there.

They did not say they were rigged, they said that different interests including the Taliban tried to stop or influence the election by the use of violence.

RAWA thinks life was better under the Taliban?

I read the link and though they have beefs with the Karzi government and with NATO for not putting more pressure on him, a great many of which are probably valid, I missed the part where they wanted NATO out.

The last paragraph.

We are of the staunch belief that after fulfilling the crucial task of defeating fundamentalism, the day will come when we breathe the fresh air of freedom and democracy and reconstruct our wasteland by our own hands and with the sincere help of freedom-loving nations.

How's that supposed to happen if everyone leaves?

[Catchme]

Wilbur, the whole RAWA site is worth reading, these women have been openly fighting for women's rights in Afghanistan since 1977, they know what they are speaking off and face murder everyday.

Those International organizations were admitting that the elections were going to be corrupted because of what the NA and taliban were doing. Drs Without Borders have left Afghanistan because of this.

This election is to be held when corruption, bribery, red-tapism, drug trafficking, and the abduction of children are at unprecedented levels, and guns and terrorism dominate the country. Guns, money and intimidation rule over and influence the law.

The “Election Commission” is occupied by the warlords and their agents. Among the 18 presidential candidates, there are some notorious faces like Ahmed Shah Ahmedzai, Hafizull Mansour, Abdul Hadi Dabir, Latif Pedram, Qanoni, Dostum and Mohaqiq who were among the first to be put on trial as treacherous criminals. Over 150 complaint letters have been submitted by the victims against the above criminals, but the Commission has rejected them all. The Election Commission breached election law and opened the door for these bloodthirsty warlords. The few candidates whose hands are not stained with blood are weak and wavering against fundamentalists, and are considered to be more interested in their own fame than getting votes from the masses.

http://www.rawa.org/election_e.htm

Five years have passed since the so-called "democratic" government of Hamid Karzai has been installed but the depth of tragedy and miseries of Afghan people still remain intact. Unlike what is being shown in the media, RAWA and other human rights organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch paint a very different picture of Afghanistan.

The large scale of corruption and fraud in the 2005 parliamentary elections by the fundamentalists are clear indications that democracy cannot be practiced in a country infected by the germ of fundamentalist terrorists. The votes have been grabbed by the force of guns, money and authoritative power.

Karzai turned his back on the hopes and expectations of our people and failed to fulfill his commitments. He betrayed the people's trust by relying on warlords. By compromising with infamous fundamentalist warlords, and appointing them to high governmental posts Karzai has failed to bring any radical positive change. Now we have a parliament full of warlords. The most disgusting faces include Jehadi criminal leaders, former Taliban commanders and some former puppets of the USSR. Those who ought to be prosecuted before anyone else for their crimes against our nation are going to legislate to the Afghan people! The rule of private armies of the warlords in different parts of the country and infighting between different groups of them has resulted in the loss of innocent lives.

http://www.rawa.org/zoya_oct7-06.htm

Five years ago, the US and allies attacked Afghanistan in the name of bringing "Human Rights", "Democracy", and "Freedom" to the war-torn country. The Taliban regime fell and Hamid Karzai's puppet regime, which included the world-known Northern Alliance criminals, or as UN envoy Mahmoud Mestri said, "the bandit gangs", took over in the name of a fake democracy. However, today, the deceitful policies of Mr. Karzai and his Western guardians have brought Afghanistan to a very critical situation in which disaster is a ticking time bomb that can explode any minute. Treason and mockery have efficiently been used under the name of "democracy" and "freedom" in these five years, and the human rights situation in Afghanistan is a product of the painful deception of the warlord led government.

http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-06_e.htm

[jdobbin]

The US asked, yes, jean said no, I am just stating why.... Iraq we could not handle, Afghanistan we can....

I'm afraid that I have *never* heard that from any military person aside from yourself. I'd be hard pressed to find confirmation from any source of that being the reason why Canada is not in Iraq.

[jdobbin]

I agree weaponeer. It is exactly why I think we need the Conservatives to be in power for a LONG time to change the national myths of Canada to include a strong armed forces as part of the national dream of Canada.

I think you guys are creating a myth of why Canada was not in Iraq. Please show some credible evidence rather than your belief why Canada couldn't go to Iraq.

It has never been cited by anyone that Canada couldn't go because it wasn't capable.

[jdobbin]

Make a logical conclusion for yourself.

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2459/35145

I already know what Sheila Copps thinks of Paul Martin. And Paul Martin *was* leader when asked according to the link I gave you. He said "no" again when asked for troops. Take a look if you don't believe it.

[tml12]

Make a logical conclusion for yourself.

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2459/35145

I already know what Sheila Copps thinks of Paul Martin. And Paul Martin *was* leader when asked according to the link I gave you. He said "no" again when asked for troops. Take a look if you don't believe it.

Chretien majority=in control of the rhetoric and conscious only Paul Martin would face the consequences of his decision, Chretien said "no" about sending troops in. Then (as a true Liberal), showing he was clearly in it for the money, Canadian defense contractors went in to Iraq and have since made lots of $$$ in the country. The elites on the Canadian left clearly cannot show Canada's "moral superiority" in saying no. Plus I think you know we would have gone all the way with a Martin majority. That being said, you may be suprised to know that I did not favour the war in Iraq at all. However, knowing that Canada would end up there (and keeping in mind that Bush is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces that would protect us if we were attacked, along with our own courageous men) I thought Chretien should do the noble thing. Instead, he played good politics.

[tml12]

The US asked, yes, jean said no, I am just stating why.... Iraq we could not handle, Afghanistan we can....

I'm afraid that I have *never* heard that from any military person aside from yourself. I'd be hard pressed to find confirmation from any source of that is not why Canada is not in Iraq.

I think it is quite clear that, thanks to Liberal cost-cutting measures, Canada's army could probably not handle Sweden's. And I should add, it is not because of the lack of courage among our brave and courageous soldiers but rather because the army is in need of dire rebuilding after successive Liberal governments let it go to shame. You may not know we used to have the fourth largest army in the world.

I think it was weaponeer who stated that it is disgraceful that leftist Canadians have let down the armed forces through electing successive Liberal governments. I agree.

[Wilber]

Wilbur, the whole RAWA site is worth reading, these women have been openly fighting for women's rights in Afghanistan since 1977, they know what they are speaking off and face murder everyday.

They have a beef with Karzi and his government and they don't like the support he is getting. Many of their criticisms are no doubt valid. Trouble is, we are limited to working with the least objectionable and those who do not support organizations who will attack us. We don't get our first choice because such a thing probably doesn't exist in Aghanistan and we know we can't govern the country ourselves. Show me where RAWA, Amnesty International, or Human Rights Watch have said that NATO and the UN should abandon Afghanistan, that the Taliban should be allowed to retake the country or that they believe women would be better off with the Taliban being given a free reign.

[Black Dog]

Upthread tml12 asks this question:

And exactly what do you prescribe we do in the future?

Which, to me, gets to the fundamental problem with the discourse over Afghanistan which is divided between those who think we must do something and those who think it's not our place.

Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning can we do anything?

[Wilber]

Upthread tml12 asks this question:

And exactly what do you prescribe we do in the future?

Which, to me, gets to the fundamental problem with the discourse over Afghanistan which is divided between those who think we must do something and those who think it's not our place.

Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning can we do anything?

We are doing something. The questions are. Can we do enough? Is it possible for anyone to do enough? Is it right not to try?

[Fortunata]

Army Guy or Canadian Blue said that the military told the government we were in no position to deploy troops to Afghanistan and Chretien did anyways. With that in mind, if the government really wanted to go into Iraq (at any point), do you think a little thing like readiness would have stopped them? Doubtful. It seems we gear up when forced to only. Right now Afghanistan is the impetus that is driving the upgrades.

[Wilber]

I agree weaponeer. It is exactly why I think we need the Conservatives to be in power for a LONG time to change the national myths of Canada to include a strong armed forces as part of the national dream of Canada.

I think you guys are creating a myth of why Canada was not in Iraq. Please show some credible evidence rather than your belief why Canada couldn't go to Iraq.

It has never been cited by anyone that Canada couldn't go because it wasn't capable.

Maybe a look at the Canadian contribution to the First Gulf War might be appropriate. Had the CAF's capability to fight a high intensity ground war changed much between 1991 and 2001? I doubt it. It may well have got worse.

I agree that it wouldn't have made any difference to Chretien. He was always committing troops and equipment we didn't have to politically correct causes which would make him Brownie points.

[Topaz]

Where does one start when the topic of this war or Iraqi war is brought up??? Whose right or wrong will only be answered in the future. The Middle-East is so complicated that perhaps we in the west don't understand them enough. I do know, from reading about the Taliban, that the US helped them come to power and also decided to take them out just like they did Hussein. Seems to me, that maybe the US foreign polices should be more carefully thought out. I don't mind helping other countries out, but I'm not sure what the results will be with Afghanistan. There's been money pouring into this country and its not getting to the people only to the govt. Why aren't we seeing more on the news about what is happening there?? I think Harper is keeping a tight lid on any news coming out of there. The US has stopped reporting when an American soldier is killed by only saying a NATO soldier was killed.

[jdobbin]

Chretien majority=in control of the rhetoric and conscious only Paul Martin would face the consequences of his decision, Chretien said "no" about sending troops in. Then (as a true Liberal), showing he was clearly in it for the money, Canadian defense contractors went in to Iraq and have since made lots of $$$ in the country. The elites on the Canadian left clearly cannot show Canada's "moral superiority" in saying no. Plus I think you know we would have gone all the way with a Martin majority. That being said, you may be suprised to know that I did not favour the war in Iraq at all. However, knowing that Canada would end up there (and keeping in mind that Bush is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces that would protect us if we were attacked, along with our own courageous men) I thought Chretien should do the noble thing. Instead, he played good politics.

Why not go to Iraq? What is the reason you had for not wanting to go? How would Bush protect Canadian soldiers when he can't even protect his own?

As for the rest of your assertions on Canada and Iraq, please produce some citations. I simply don't believe any of it.