O'Connor on the Afghan War

[August1991]

"When the Taliban or al-Qaeda came out of Afghanistan, they attacked the Twin Towers and in those twin towers, 25 Canadians were killed. The previous government and this government will not allow Canadians to be killed without retribution," Mr. O'Connor told his audience of roughly 200 people, many of them military personnel.

In an interview after his speech, Mr. O'Connor said the word retribution doesn't necessarily mean punishment.

"What it means is, if our country is attacked, we are not going to stand blandly by and not do anything about it," he said.

"I don't believe the (former) Liberal government would have committed us to Afghanistan had there not been Canadians killed."

...

Canada does not want a Taliban government to regain control of Afghanistan because it would provide fertile ground for terrorism, Mr. O'Connor warned.

"If they returned and took the government, they then would allow terrorist organizations to operate in the country, international terrorist organizations. We believe that."

But Saleem Qureshi, a professor of Middle East politics at the University of Alberta, said the federal government should pull Canadian soldiers out of the country.

The soldiers are doing heroic work, but war carried out by the world's most powerful states will always prompt less powerful opponents to use terrorism, Mr. Qureshi argued.

"Political issues can only be resolved by political negotiations."

Edmonton Journal

O'Connor is right and this academic is wrong. The academic's argument is tantamount to urging us to give into extortion.

I'll add that our NATO (and moral) obligations would require us to participate even if there had be no Canadians killed in September 2001.

[Catchme]

So, what O'Connor said was we Canadians are in Afghanistan for retribution purposes and nothing else.

I wonder if Canadians actually feel that way, or believed that to be the reason?

I believe, that Canadians would be extremely upset if they felt we were in Afganistan for purposes of retribution. Particularily, seeing as how Afgans had nothing to do with 911, except by having those accused of masterminding it run and hide in their mountains without Afghans approval, or even ability to do something about it.

Moreover, I do not believe Canadians would be supportive of acts of retribution by our government upon innocent peoples and countries.

O'Connor said Canadian soldiers are in the country because Afghanistan's democratically elected government wants them there, because Canada has a responsibility to help as one of the world's richest countries and because the war is in Canada's own interest.

Now above is the 3 fold reasons why O'Connor, the former military defense industry lobbyist, talk about Cheney and halliburton all over again, now turned defense minister, said we are in Afghanistan.

Let's look at the first O'Connor reason, beyond of course hisprimary one of retribution:

The Democratically elected government wants us there.

This is the first glaring mistruth he spoke. They were not democratically elected, organizations around the world have attested to the fact the election was not a free or democratic one. Indeed NATO is propping up Karzi and nothing more.

The next mistruth is that Canada has a responsibility to help as one of the world's richest countries.

Actually, no we don't, if that was the case there would be at least another 100 countries where would have to be doing the same thing.

Plus, what is his definition of "help"? Help what?

Also he just presents the assumption that what we are doing there is help, with NO concrete proof or support of his contentions that indeed our military being there is "helping" Afghanistan at all, or that even it will help sometime in the future. It is an empty statement at best.

Now the final reason actually might be a partial truth, but is still not a good enough reason to destroy a country and allow the further oppression of Afghans by propping up a corrupt murdering government.

O'Connor states: "because the war is in Canada's own interest". Oh? And what best interests would that be?

What exact Canadian interests are being met, by our having a war with Afghans who do not want us in their country propping up a government they do not want?

[Wilber]

I believe, that Canadians would be extremely upset if they felt we were in Afganistan for purposes of retribution. Particularily, seeing as how Afgans had nothing to do with 911, except by having those accused of masterminding it run and hide in their mountains without Afghans approval, or even ability to do something about it.

It was done with the approval and support of the Taliban who made up the government of Afghanistan at the time and are the people our troops are fighting. Our presence there is more like self defense but those who attack us and our allies should fear retribution.

This is the first glaring mistruth he spoke. They were not democratically elected, organizations around the world have attested to the fact the election was not a free or democratic one. Indeed NATO is propping up Karzi and nothing more.

What organizations?

As opposed to the Taliban who took power by force and have never held or taken part in an election, ever? A government that brutalized women, anyone and anything else which didn't conform to the letter of their vision of Islam? A government which was recognized by only three other countries, the Emirates, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

[Borg]

Kill them there or kill them here.

Sooner or later it will come to us if we do nothing.

Borg

[weaponeer]

In the 1990's AQ had several formal press conferences where they "DECLARED WAR" on the US. Theyb stated their reasons, and formally declared war.

The Americans did not take this declaration seriously. The sluffed it off, "crazy guy living in a cave". Well AQ struck, US embassies, USS Cole, etc... Now the Americans took them seriously.

Since AQ "DECLARED WAR" on the US, the Americans have the right & obligation (to protect thier citizens) to attack AQ bases, cells, orgs reguardless of where they are. AQ was in A-stan, the talibs supported & aided them, makes them a target!!! Simple as that.

If the Canadian gov't provided land & support to establish an AQ camp in Canada, that camp would become a legitimate target, and we would pay the price. The talibs should of handed over the AQs in A-stan, they chose not too. Too bad for them...

Socialists hate the US, because the Americans have fought against everything they believe in for the last 60 years (thank God). They will appose the US no matter what they do, or do not do.

[Borg]

In the 1990's AQ had several formal press conferences where they "DECLARED WAR" on the US. Theyb stated their reasons, and formally declared war.

The Americans did not take this declaration seriously. The sluffed it off, "crazy guy living in a cave". Well AQ struck, US embassies, USS Cole, etc... Now the Americans took them seriously.

Since AQ "DECLARED WAR" on the US, the Americans have the right & obligation (to protect thier citizens) to attack AQ bases, cells, orgs reguardless of where they are. AQ was in A-stan, the talibs supported & aided them, makes them a target!!! Simple as that.

If the Canadian gov't provided land & support to establish an AQ camp in Canada, that camp would become a legitimate target, and we would pay the price. The talibs should of handed over the AQs in A-stan, they chose not too. Too bad for them...

Socialists hate the US, because the Americans have fought against everything they believe in for the last 60 years (thank God). They will appose the US no matter what they do, or do not do.

My, my my ... you are going to stir up the limp wristed Canuckleheads who sit on the left side of God in a big way with your chatter. They will be all over you - wringing their hands in despair.

Keep it up my friend - but be prepared for the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune! You obviously are not a devoted follower and devout believer in MacLeans Mag - there will be those that will attempt to drag you to the dark side - where independent thought and keeping your tax dollars at home is frowned upon. They want you to send your dollars to China - and save our environment by purchasing from China the right to burn fuel. ;->

Your talk on cells coming to Canada ..... The Hadjis would love to set up in Canada - in fact they may be here - time will tell.

In the end we kill them there or we kill them here - I believe it will come to that now.

Regards

Borg

[jdobbin]

O'Connor is right and this academic is wrong. The academic's argument is tantamount to urging us to give into extortion.

I'll add that our NATO (and moral) obligations would require us to participate even if there had be no Canadians killed in September 2001.

I believe it was 24 Canadians killed September 11 including my neighbor Christine Egan.

The mission of going after Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda has been tripped up by the huge task of regime change. If Pakistan can't control some of its provinces, I don't see how Afghanistan can assert control over all its territory either.

As far as the Taliban go, they can hide in Pakistan and wait indefinitely for an opportunity to attack. It is hard to imagine if Afghanistan will ever be able to fight them off if officials in Pakistan continue to undermine Afghan sovereignty.

[jdobbin]

Kill them there or kill them here.

Sooner or later it will come to us if we do nothing.

The Taliban and al Qaeda are safe in Pakistan. It seems many of them are not being killed there.

[Wilber]

The mission of going after Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda has been tripped up by the huge task of regime change. If Pakistan can't control some of its provinces, I don't see how Afghanistan can assert control over all its territory either.

As far as the Taliban go, they can hide in Pakistan and wait indefinitely for an opportunity to attack. It is hard to imagine if Afghanistan will ever be able to fight them off if officials in Pakistan continue to undermine Afghan sovereignty.

I agree that the real mission got side tracked by Iraq but it seems you are maintaining that the only way Afghanistan could be sovereign is under the Taliban. Even more reason to make sure that doesn't happen, IMO. Sometimes winning is not losing.

[weaponeer]

talibs ARE NOT safe in Pakistan. We know where they are, we will know when they move across the border, we will have an appropriate welcome ready for they. It would simpley but rude not to welcome them:)

Our commanders are not stupide, they will handle it.......

[jdobbin]

talibs ARE NOT safe in Pakistan. We know where they are, we will know when they move across the border, we will have an appropriate welcome ready for they. It would simpley but rude not to welcome them:)

Our commanders are not stupide, they will handle it.......

It is a huge border and despite everything, weapons and people are making it across the border. Even the commanders you say are welcoming them admit they are getting through because there simply not enough soldiers to do the job.

[weaponeer]

I assure you, each & every mountain pass is known, and watched. Preditor drones, SOF units, they know where they are and when they move.

Will some get thought, sure. Will thousands, NO!!

[jdobbin]

I assure you, each & every mountain pass is known, and watched. Preditor drones, SOF units, they know where they are and when they move.

Will some get thought, sure. Will thousands, NO!!

I'm sure the violence will be over in a week then.

[weaponeer]

No, it will not be over in a week. But we are not cowering in the corner waiting for them to come across. We are not tripping over each other to be on the last plane outta Kandahar before they come.

We'll (NATO) be ready & waiting. Some of you make it sound like, Oh my God, here they come, run away, run away!! Oh it's hopeless!!!

Some of you, safe behind computers in your homes seem to know more about counter-insurgencey warfare than the experts. Perhaps we could get your phone #'s passed on to Gen Hillier and the rest of the NATO commanders & they could seek out advice from the experts!!

I recieved my orders to go this morning. Leave in Apr........

[tml12]

No, it will not be over in a week. But we are not cowering in the corner waiting for them to come across. We are not tripping over each other to be on the last plane outta Kandahar before they come.

We'll (NATO) be ready & waiting. Some of you make it sound like, Oh my God, here they come, run away, run away!! Oh it's hopeless!!!

Some of you, safe behind computers in your homes seem to know more about counter-insurgencey warfare than the experts. Perhaps we could get your phone #'s passed on to Gen Hillier and the rest of the NATO commanders & they could seek out advice from the experts!!

I recieved my orders to go this morning. Leave in Apr........

I completely respect your committment to both Canada and Afghanistan. We need more people who are as brave and loyal as you. The left would have us cut and run. But run where? The Canadian left (Dion/Layton) would assure this is an American problem and that the enemy knows we are a more sophisticated nation.

I call major BS. Our freesom isn't free. I hope that you remain safe and secure when you leave weaponeer and know that you (and all the soldiers) are in my thoughts and prayers.

[Catchme]

I believe, that Canadians would be extremely upset if they felt we were in Afganistan for purposes of retribution. Particularily, seeing as how Afgans had nothing to do with 911, except by having those accused of masterminding it run and hide in their mountains without Afghans approval, or even ability to do something about it.

It was done with the approval and support of the Taliban who made up the government of Afghanistan at the time and are the people our troops are fighting. Our presence there is more like self defense but those who attack us and our allies should fear retribution.

This is the first glaring mistruth he spoke. They were not democratically elected, organizations around the world have attested to the fact the election was not a free or democratic one. Indeed NATO is propping up Karzi and nothing more.

What organizations?

As opposed to the Taliban who took power by force and have never held or taken part in an election, ever? A government that brutalized women, anyone and anything else which didn't conform to the letter of their vision of Islam? A government which was recognized by only three other countries, the Emirates, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

Human Rights Watch

Amnesty Inter.

RAWA

UN

Afghan Observer

Read RAWA, wilbur find out how the Karzi government abuses women, and read how the elections were corrupt. Reaf Human Rights Watch see the autrocities occuring even now against women and how the elections were corrupt. This government and its puppet masters are doing worse Afghans think.

It doesn't matter if the world recognizes the government so much, as the actual people in the country recognizing it.

Now you do remember that al qaeda and Osama bin Laden, who are being blammed for 911, are NOT the Taliban, don't you? Though they were sympathetic to one another it is alleged.

Canadians reallly aren't about retribution and retribution for what? Being there is self defense? Hardly!

Also, O'Connor doesn't even have the guts to say we are there for the women and people of Afghanistan, if you read his words he said the Karzi government wants Canadians there.

[tml12]

I believe, that Canadians would be extremely upset if they felt we were in Afganistan for purposes of retribution. Particularily, seeing as how Afgans had nothing to do with 911, except by having those accused of masterminding it run and hide in their mountains without Afghans approval, or even ability to do something about it.

It was done with the approval and support of the Taliban who made up the government of Afghanistan at the time and are the people our troops are fighting. Our presence there is more like self defense but those who attack us and our allies should fear retribution.

This is the first glaring mistruth he spoke. They were not democratically elected, organizations around the world have attested to the fact the election was not a free or democratic one. Indeed NATO is propping up Karzi and nothing more.

What organizations?

As opposed to the Taliban who took power by force and have never held or taken part in an election, ever? A government that brutalized women, anyone and anything else which didn't conform to the letter of their vision of Islam? A government which was recognized by only three other countries, the Emirates, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

Human Rights Watch

Amnesty Inter.

RAWA

UN

Afghan Observer

Read RAWA, wilbur find out how the Karzi government abuses women, and read how the elections were corrupt. Reaf Human Rights Watch see the autrocities occuring even now against women and how the elections were corrupt. This government and its puppet masters are doing worse Afghans think.

It doesn't matter if the world recognizes the government so much, as the actual people in the country recognizing it.

Now you do remember that al qaeda and Osama bin Laden, who are being blammed for 911, are NOT the Taliban, don't you? Though they were sympathetic to one another it is alleged.

Canadians reallly aren't about retribution and retribution for what? Being there is self defense? Hardly!

Also, O'Connor doesn't even have the guts to say we are there for the women and people of Afghanistan, if you read his words he said the Karzi government wants Canadians there.

And exactly what do you prescribe we do in the future?

[jdobbin]

No, it will not be over in a week. But we are not cowering in the corner waiting for them to come across. We are not tripping over each other to be on the last plane outta Kandahar before they come.

We'll (NATO) be ready & waiting. Some of you make it sound like, Oh my God, here they come, run away, run away!! Oh it's hopeless!!!

Some of you, safe behind computers in your homes seem to know more about counter-insurgencey warfare than the experts. Perhaps we could get your phone #'s passed on to Gen Hillier and the rest of the NATO commanders & they could seek out advice from the experts!!

I recieved my orders to go this morning. Leave in Apr........

No, I suspect that the fighting will still be there for you in April. Good luck with that and hope you stay safe.

I have no idea how the situation in Afghanistan will turn out. I just know what the precautions are.

There was a lot of brave talk about Iraq. Still is if you listen to some people. I think that the situation in Afghanistan is by no means decided at the moment. It will only be decided when Afghanistan can take care of itself. They don't seem like they will be able to do that anytime soon.

[jdobbin]

I completely respect your committment to both Canada and Afghanistan. We need more people who are as brave and loyal as you. The left would have us cut and run. But run where? The Canadian left (Dion/Layton) would assure this is an American problem and that the enemy knows we are a more sophisticated nation.

I call major BS. Our freesom isn't free. I hope that you remain safe and secure when you leave weaponeer and know that you (and all the soldiers) are in my thoughts and prayers.

The right would have had us in Iraq. Don't forget that. It is where Harper thought Canada should be.

Do you still think we should have gone and should be in Iraq now?

[weaponeer]

We did not go into Iraq because of the state of the Canadian Forces. We could not survive in high intensity warfare against an army like Iraq had. We could not hold are own against one of his Rep Guard units, we would have been a burden to the US.

I still have faith in Iraq truning out for the better. Why, because I am crazy, no, one word Bosnia!! I did 2 tours there, if that civil war could be turned around, anything is possible....

[jdobbin]

We did not go into Iraq because of the state of the Canadian Forces. We could not survive in high intensity warfare against an army like Iraq had. We could not hold are own against one of his Rep Guard units, we would have been a burden to the US.

I still have faith in Iraq truning out for the better. Why, because I am crazy, no, one word Bosnia!! I did 2 tours there, if that civil war could be turned around, anything is possible....

You'll have to show a citation for Canada not being capable of sending 2000 troops to Iraq.

Stephen Harper certainly thought we were capable of it.

[tml12]

I completely respect your committment to both Canada and Afghanistan. We need more people who are as brave and loyal as you. The left would have us cut and run. But run where? The Canadian left (Dion/Layton) would assure this is an American problem and that the enemy knows we are a more sophisticated nation.

I call major BS. Our freesom isn't free. I hope that you remain safe and secure when you leave weaponeer and know that you (and all the soldiers) are in my thoughts and prayers.

The right would have had us in Iraq. Don't forget that. It is where Harper thought Canada should be.

Do you still think we should have gone and should be in Iraq now?

It is where BOTH Harper and Martin thought we should be. It is also where (although Chretien claimed he kept us out) the Liberals thought Canada should benefit from all the defense contracts.

[jdobbin]

It is where BOTH Harper and Martin thought we should be. It is also where (although Chretien claimed he kept us out) the Liberals thought Canada should benefit from all the defense contracts.

When did Paul Martin want Canada in Iraq?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/

[weaponeer]

There's nothing to show. The Canadian Forces does not posess the capability anymore to engage in high intensity combat. We could not stop, destroy or defeat an Iraqi RG division or regiment.

We do not have mobern tanks, the Leps are 30 years old, & their guns are 105mm, too small. Greta for fighting in A-stan, no good for tangling with modern MBTs. We did not have modern arty at the time, although we do now, M777. We do not posess a modern heavy IFV like the American Bradley or British Warrior, our LAV3's could not tangle with T80 tanks. We do not have modern attack or transport helos, we did not have modern fighters capable of operating over Iraq. Remember, we cannot even evac our own wounded off the battlefield in a-stan, US does it for us.

We could not survive in high intensity combat even today, simple as that.....

[jdobbin]

We could not survive in high intensity combat even today, simple as that.....

The why was Canada asked to be there? And asked again after Chretien left? Why did the military plan on sending 2000 troops to Iraq?

I'll need something a bit better than your word. Perhaps there is some expert out there that will attest to the fact that Canada was less capable than Romania or Japan in Iraq.