Dion Courting Western Canada

[geoffrey]

I must say though.. Montreal has the best street signs, public benches, most nicesest shopping complexes, clean washrooms, best street lamps, infrastructurer maintance I've seen... it's just an amazing city. It's so hard to believe that it's such a welfare provicnce. When you drive into Montreal it almost screams wealth and prosperity.

If I won the lottery, I'd move to Montreal... if it had better skiing (Tremblant is ok, skied it a few times... it's no Kicking Horse, Fernie or Panorama though). It's a fantastically beautiful city (with the best food and nightlife IMO), most days, but economically it's not my style. I couldn't imagine trying to make my way up in a city like that, perhaps that's the trick, get the experience, the money in Calgary, then move to Montreal and enjoy the socialist kickbacks?

Who knows.

I am hoping to spend the summer there this year.

[August1991]

I must say though.. Montreal has the best street signs, public benches, most nicesest shopping complexes, clean washrooms, best street lamps, infrastructurer maintance I've seen... it's just an amazing city. It's so hard to believe that it's such a welfare provicnce. When you drive into Montreal it almost screams wealth and prosperity.

And potholes that can swallow a small SUV not to mention bridges that collapse killing people in cars below.

If MikeDavid says it's true, you won't go far wrong believing the opposite.

----

Returning to the OP.

At the moment, I don't think anyone can properly assess the Dion approach. He names his shadow cabinet this week. This will be an important first step. From there, it will be easier to judge how they critique the government. Beyond that, it will be the first inkling of what they would do differently.

Uh, I suggest you look at some of these Dion quotes in Alberta. (I'm from central Canada, live in Montreal, don't travel that much in Canada now and even I know better than to say this kind of nonsense.)

Especially when he blurted “I’m a Liberal, not a socialist. The government will not decide everything,” he insisted.

...

“We need to be a bit like Norway,” Dion scolded. Then he tore a strip off young guys heading for the oilsands.

“All these workers living too fast for the easy money in the north,” the prime minister-wannabe blasted as Liberal-appointed senators Tommy Banks and Grant Mitchell looked on. “It’s not good for the economy.”

...

Dion is also a big believer in the dubious carbon trading market – where companies buy and sell hot air to meet their government-imposed emissions targets.He predicted it will be “bigger than the wheat and coffee markets together.” He promised that Canadians will make “mega tonnes of money around the world".

“It’s not at all a carbon tax,” Dion insisted, preferring to call his proposed revenue grab “environmental tax reform.” Dion rejected the next phase of Stephen Harper’s GST rollbacks. Instead, he prefers to bring in a wonkydoodle set of rebates based on the energy efficiency and greenhouse gas reduction of household appliances and automobiles.

Canoe

Dion said it is possible to cut the country's greenhouse gas emissions without cutting the heart out of Alberta's economy.

"I'm not there to kill the growth, I'm there to make the growth sustainable," he said. "I don't want to kill the milk cow. But I want to make sure that the milk will still be good and there for our grandchildren."

Edmonton Sun

Harper is far better advised when he speaks in Quebec than Dion is when he speaks in western Canada.

Harper can appear arrogant but I think it's shyness. I think he's a good listener and he certainly knows how to take advice.

Dion on the other hand probably thinks he knows best. His choice of words and his expressions above are typical of an urban Quebec intellectual attempting to be a populist.

[incidentally, Montreal already thinks it has dibs on the "carbon market". Only a Montreal university prof from Outremont with a doctorate in sociology could suggest in cavalier fashion that people will make "mega tonnes of money" in a carbon market.]

Milk and milk cows. That's a poor choice of metaphor for a politician from Quebec seeking votes in the West.

[mikedavid00]

If I won the lottery, I'd move to Montreal... if it had better skiing (Tremblant is ok, skied it a few times... it's no Kicking Horse, Fernie or Panorama though). It's a fantastically beautiful city (with the best food and nightlife IMO), most days, but economically it's not my style. I couldn't imagine trying to make my way up in a city like that, perhaps that's the trick, get the experience, the money in Calgary, then move to Montreal and enjoy the socialist kickbacks?

Who knows.

I am hoping to spend the summer there this year.

Yeah i'll be there this summer for sure. The women there are just drop dead gorgeous and slim. It's amazing.

But from what I hear the hospital system is a complete mess. More waiting time than in Ontario even. I heard this is due to language issues creating shortages. Other than that I would love to retire in Montreal.

[mikedavid00]

And potholes that can swallow a small SUV not to mention bridges that collapse killing people in cars below.

If MikeDavid says it's true, you won't go far wrong believing the opposite.

I never saw any of these potholes.

I heard that it's the geographics of the city that is pavement unfriendly.

[blueblood]

Dion is also a big believer in the dubious carbon trading market – where companies buy and sell hot air to meet their government-imposed emissions targets.He predicted it will be “bigger than the wheat and coffee markets together.” He promised that Canadians will make “mega tonnes of money around the world".

How in the blue hell does he expect us to make money by imposing a "carbon tax" on Canadians and sending it to other countries in the world?

[HoratioCaine]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070113/national/sask_dion

I was talking Geoffrey about this the other day. He noted that Dion pointedly wasn't going to create a policy that hurts Alberta. Now, he is going into Saskatchewan to make sure the Liberal are hearing farmers.

I think this is in keeping with the idea to make sure the Liberals challenge right across the country rather than in their past areas of strength.

A solid strategy to be sure, look how well it worked for the Democrats in the recent mid terms.

[jdobbin]

There were quite a few in the oil industry who were intrigued by Dion's plan. In fact, Dion's approach to the environment had a higher acceptance than Harper's approach if you examine the links provided earlier in this thread. The Sun articles and opinion pieces August provided don't really address what he was proposing for Alberta.

Today, he announced some new initiatives. The business community reacted favourably but understandably said there needs to be more specifics.

Glen Stone, public affairs manager for the Toronto Board of Trade, was not critical of the speech but did say the business crowd can be skeptical of politicians' promises if there's no substance behind them.

"It's always welcome to hear statements of principle that you agree with, so when you hear someone talking about the importance of a strong economy to sustain a strong nation, any businessperson can understand that and agree with that," Stone said.

"It's when you get down to the specifics of how you will create and sustain that strong economy that people are looking for more specific answers as to exactly what taxes will be reduced, what regulations will be amended or eliminated, or what investments will be made to create a more competitive business climate."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070116/...dion_priorities

[B. Max]

"It's when you get down to the specifics of how you will create and sustain that strong economy that people are looking for more specific answers as to exactly what taxes will be reduced, what regulations will be amended or eliminated, or what investments will be made to create a more competitive business climate."

This doesn't sound like anything Dion has in mind.

[jdobbin]

"It's when you get down to the specifics of how you will create and sustain that strong economy that people are looking for more specific answers as to exactly what taxes will be reduced, what regulations will be amended or eliminated, or what investments will be made to create a more competitive business climate."

This doesn't sound like anything Dion has in mind.

Since Kennedy is working on that area, we'll have to see.

[geoffrey]

I'm intrigued by what Kennedy and Dion can come up with on the economy. I really dislike Dion's concept of levying taxes on Alberta oil, but he could still potentially win my vote over (if i vote at all for this sad bunch of hooligans) with a massive tax reform plan... but it's got to be huge, absolutely huge, for me to vote Liberal.

Harper won't touch taxes, other than raising the burden another 10% next year, and since the only other relevant party is the Liberals, we'll have to see what they do.

I figure this will be a stay at home election for many Canadians, you personally will lose either way you go on this one.

blueblood earlier in this thread makes a great point. Imposing taxes on Alberta industry to send overseas to buy credits isn't game in my books. That'd be a absolute no vote from Geoff decision.

[hiti]

Dion did not say he was going to levy taxes on Alberta oil. He did say he would add taxes to environment polluters and lower taxes for companies who lowered their pollution. This would make it pay for companies, especially Alberta oil companies to find ways to lower their environment emissions. As for buying credits, companies who could not meet their targets could buy credits from companies who had met environment targets. And it could be the company across the road. It would not have to be an international company.

In fact, Steve is implementing all the Liberal environment polices that Stephane Dion had set up. His first revised Liberal/Dion environment police announcement was today. We can also look forward to more of Dion's Project Green policies being revived by Steve.

[blueblood]

Dion did not say he was going to levy taxes on Alberta oil. He did say he would add taxes to environment polluters and lower taxes for companies who lowered their pollution. This would make it pay for companies, especially Alberta oil companies to find ways to lower their environment emissions. As for buying credits, companies who could not meet their targets could buy credits from companies who had met environment targets. And it could be the company across the road. It would not have to be an international company.

In fact, Steve is implementing all the Liberal environment polices that Stephane Dion had set up. His first revised Liberal/Dion environment police announcement was today. We can also look forward to more of Dion's Project Green policies being revived by Steve.

Such as a 30 cent/litre on biofuel plants to compete with the american ones? I'd like 10% biodiesel, but there isn't enough canola in the country to prop that up so I guess I'll live with 5%.

[hiti]

Dion did not say he was going to levy taxes on Alberta oil. He did say he would add taxes to environment polluters and lower taxes for companies who lowered their pollution. This would make it pay for companies, especially Alberta oil companies to find ways to lower their environment emissions. As for buying credits, companies who could not meet their targets could buy credits from companies who had met environment targets. And it could be the company across the road. It would not have to be an international company.

In fact, Steve is implementing all the Liberal environment polices that Stephane Dion had set up. His first revised Liberal/Dion environment police announcement was today. We can also look forward to more of Dion's Project Green policies being revived by Steve.

Such as a 30 cent/litre on biofuel plants to compete with the american ones? I'd like 10% biodiesel, but there isn't enough canola in the country to prop that up so I guess I'll live with 5%.

I don't know where you are coming up with 30 cent/litre on biofuel plants but here check out Dion's environment policy http://stephanedion.ca/?q=en/News-060905Energy

[blueblood]

I don't know where you are coming up with 30 cent/litre on biofuel plants but here check out Dion's environment policy http://stephanedion.ca/?q=en/News-060905Energy

link

There you go, if this story is an economic indicator, I'm doing the happy dance. he wants 10% for biodiesel? i don't know if Canada can grow enough canola for 10% plus keep our vegetable oil supply

[geoffrey]

I don't know where you are coming up with 30 cent/litre on biofuel plants but here check out Dion's environment policy http://stephanedion.ca/?q=en/News-060905Energy

link

There you go, if this story is an economic indicator, I'm doing the happy dance. he wants 10% for biodiesel? i don't know if Canada can grow enough canola for 10% plus keep our vegetable oil supply

Are margarine prices about to skyrocket?

[Ricki Bobbi]

blueblood earlier in this thread makes a great point. Imposing taxes on Alberta industry to send overseas to buy credits isn't game in my books. That'd be a absolute no vote from Geoff decision.

Is there any way the Liberals abandon Kyoto?

So I guess that means you are going to hold your nose and vote Conservative...

[geoffrey]

blueblood earlier in this thread makes a great point. Imposing taxes on Alberta industry to send overseas to buy credits isn't game in my books. That'd be a absolute no vote from Geoff decision.

So I guess that means you are going to hold your nose and vote Conservative...

Could happen. Won't happen if Harper uses resource revenues in equalisation or any additional money goes to Quebec. We'll wait for that announcement.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Could happen. Won't happen if Harper uses resource revenues in equalisation or any additional money goes to Quebec. We'll wait for that announcement.

Let's say Quebec gets more cash and the Liberals promise to re-enter Kyoto?

[geoffrey]

Could happen. Won't happen if Harper uses resource revenues in equalisation or any additional money goes to Quebec. We'll wait for that announcement.

Let's say Quebec gets more cash and the Liberals promise to re-enter Kyoto?

I move to another country or start working towards seperation?

That'd just show that no one represents Alberta if the CPC and Liberals were both against us.

[blueblood]

I don't know where you are coming up with 30 cent/litre on biofuel plants but here check out Dion's environment policy http://stephanedion.ca/?q=en/News-060905Energy

link

There you go, if this story is an economic indicator, I'm doing the happy dance. he wants 10% for biodiesel? i don't know if Canada can grow enough canola for 10% plus keep our vegetable oil supply

Are margarine prices about to skyrocket?

quite possibly, so is fertilizer, spray, and canola seed. That also depends on the type of canola grown, nexera canola is the healthiest veg. oil there is, if that got processed into diesel fuel the health nuts would freak. There is in my opinion going to have to be gov't interference to make this future boom sustainable for everyone. They can't crush the canola fast enough, there are two ginormous plants going up in Yorkton and they're going to have to pay well to staff the things. Monsanto is poised to be the next exxon-mobil with this, and that is scary. If you check out the link 50% of the crop would be used up under the conservatives plan. If I was a billionaire I'd be buying land in Africa/Eastern Europe for this. It's funny how gov't policy can create an industry like this.

[tml12]

Could happen. Won't happen if Harper uses resource revenues in equalisation or any additional money goes to Quebec. We'll wait for that announcement.

Let's say Quebec gets more cash and the Liberals promise to re-enter Kyoto?

I move to another country or start working towards seperation?

That'd just show that no one represents Alberta if the CPC and Liberals were both against us.

I completely agree. Although not from the West, I sympathize with their plight under successful Canadian (read: Ontario) governments that have sought to abuse it and rape it of its wealth.

The more the Liberals climb in the polls the more sorry I am Ted Morton did not become Premier of Alberta.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Let's say Quebec gets more cash and the Liberals promise to re-enter Kyoto?

I move to another country or start working towards seperation?

That'd just show that no one represents Alberta if the CPC and Liberals were both against us.

Well seems like your anger at the Conservatives is representative of Albertans who voted Conservative last election.

The Conservatives are at 63% in Alberta in the last Decima poll.

You would start working towards separation? but only if you could do it at a *high level*. You wouldn't be interested in door knocking, or letter stuff. At least that's what you said about becoming involved with the Conservatives...

[geoffrey]

I move to another country or start working towards seperation?

That'd just show that no one represents Alberta if the CPC and Liberals were both against us.

I completely agree. Although not from the West, I sympathize with their plight under successful Canadian (read: Ontario) governments that have sought to abuse it and rape it of its wealth.

The more the Liberals climb in the polls the more sorry I am Ted Morton did not become Premier of Alberta.

It begins with the mentality in Eastern Canada that Albertans are somewhat inferior to the rest of Canada, and the Liberals are especially good at painting the picture of us as a resource colony, the jewel in the crown of the Canada empire perhaps.

Albertans are made to have a voice, because they are backwards people who go to Church and drive pickup trucks. They are merely here to provide the rest of us with money.

Essentially the view East of Manitoba... and I'm originally from Ontario so I know all the stereotypes and how wrong they are.

Welcome back tml.

[tml12]

I move to another country or start working towards seperation?

That'd just show that no one represents Alberta if the CPC and Liberals were both against us.

I completely agree. Although not from the West, I sympathize with their plight under successful Canadian (read: Ontario) governments that have sought to abuse it and rape it of its wealth.

The more the Liberals climb in the polls the more sorry I am Ted Morton did not become Premier of Alberta.

It begins with the mentality in Eastern Canada that Albertans are somewhat inferior to the rest of Canada, and the Liberals are especially good at painting the picture of us as a resource colony, the jewel in the crown of the Canada empire perhaps.

Albertans are made to have a voice, because they are backwards people who go to Church and drive pickup trucks. They are merely here to provide the rest of us with money.

Essentially the view East of Manitoba... and I'm originally from Ontario so I know all the stereotypes and how wrong they are.

Welcome back tml.

It is definitely the view of Canadians, especially those from Ontario, that Western Canada is simply a backwards exception to the Canadian federation. So many times I have heard Liberals from Montreal and Toronto talking about how they needed to "sedate" Western Canadian elements because they were so different from the Liberal view of Canada.

Alberta has a lot of resources and they should have a voice. Furthermore, they should be outraged when they are neglected by their fellow Canadians.

Thank you Geoffrey for welcoming me back!!! Although I haven't been here for awhile, I expect to be here for the near future. I certainly hope to cheer the Conservatives on in the next election...I think Harper is the best choice to govern this country.