Dion Courting Western Canada

[geoffrey]

He telling the east, elect me and I will bring you the spoils, and look at me, I'm saying this in Alberta.

Exactly what I got from his speeches too. The arrogance, though much more well hidden than Chretien's, is apparent when you take a second glimpse at his speeches.

"I'm here to keep the resource colony in line, don't worry Quebec. You'll be getting your dividends!"

This was a near parallel to Trudeau II's speech to Calgary on the oil industry. What does a Montreal teacher know about our industry? How does he have any right to speak to us on how things should be done coming from an economically depressed province with zero ideas on how to properly run industry?

It's sad the exact questions can be asked of Dion as well.

I'd still argue taxation on resources from the Federal govenrment is unconstitutional, it'd be interesting to see where that went in court if Alberta were to challenge it, or simply withhold payments in some way.

[Ricki Bobbi]

What kind of respect do you expect? I hear this over and over again but noone says what respect actually means. Care to explain?

There is a general consensus among Ontarians, Quebeckers, and Maritimers that Alberta runs the surpluses it does only because of our natural resources. It has nothing to do with the very hard work put in to run the oil sector. They don't recognize that Ralph Klein originally balanced the provincial budget with oil at less that $20 a barrel through considerable cuts to a wide variety of provincial services and some very innovative policy choices.

They can't fathom that Ontario has some very natural advantages with the proximity of its manufacturing sector to the huge markets in the US midwest and the protectionism of the late 1800s and early 1900s that allowed the sector to grow and expand.

Quebeckers don't see how the strength of their union movement makes it incredibly difficult to compete on the global stage. Alberta would not be able to run the surpluses it does and continue to contribute to equalization and provide $7 a day health care, and have the Quebec's level of provincial employees.

I have had Maritimers tell me that Albertans have nothing to complain about because it is the *government's* money and we should have no say on how it is spent. Where is the respect for the long hours we put in at work and the blood and sweat it took to develop the oil patch.

Our financial contributions to Canada are taken for granted, we are looked down on for not giving more and our culture and political beliefs are mocked. That is not respect. Just don't make fun of us, how we vote and what we do with our lives. Is that too much to ask?

[B. Max]

None that are fast enough moving for me. Change seems to take a long time but when it happens, it happens real fast.

Our mime for a premier must be a little nervous though. I hear his handlers wouldn't allow any pictures to be taken with him and the jolly green Dion.

Well, you better start working on it then. It won't just happen without any effort on your behalf.

Don't worry I have put effort into it as have many others and will continue to. Polls have put support for separation at anywhere between 25 and 40 percent. Goats like Dion and Chretien have always been our best sales men. With the election of Harper it put a wait and see cloud over the process, but even that is beginning to disappear as I suspected it would.

[mikedavid00]

The Conservatives lost seats in British Columbia in both of the last two federal elections.

Gee, I wonder why that was.

How could that have possibly happened?

[Ricki Bobbi]

Don't worry I have put effort into it as have many others and will continue to. Polls have put support for separation at anywhere between 25 and 40 percent. Goats like Dion and Chretien have always been our best sales men. With the election of Harper it put a wait and see cloud over the process, but even that is beginning to disappear as I suspected it would.

Support for Alberta separation at 40%? That is absolute bullsh*t.

No way it is even close to that high.

In the last provincial election the Separation Party of Alberta could only run 12 candidates. None of those candidates got more than 7% of the vote in their riding...

[normanchateau]

The Conservatives lost seats in British Columbia in both of the last two federal elections.

Gee, I wonder why that was.

How could that have possibly happened?

And it happened while the Conservatives gained seats in most of the other provinces. Maybe Westerners, at least those west of the Rockies, have little use for Stephen Harper.

[mikedavid00]

Our financial contributions to Canada are taken for granted, we are looked down on for not giving more and our culture and political beliefs are mocked. That is not respect. Just don't make fun of us, how we vote and what we do with our lives. Is that too much to ask?

I find Alberta (and always have) to be the only 'functioning' part of Canada.

[normanchateau]

I find Alberta (and always have) to be the only 'functioning' part of Canada.

Best of all, each and everyone of their MPs is a functioning Conservative. No stupid and dysfunctional Liberal, NDP or independent MPs wasting valuable space in the House of Commons. Just smart and open-minded people like MP Myron Thompson. If only other Canadian provinces would see the light!

"I want the whole world to know that I do not condone homosexuals. I do not condone their activity. I do not like what they do. I think it is wrong. I think it is unnatural and I think it is totally immoral. I will object to it forever whenever they attack the good, traditional Canadian family unit that built the country."

- MP Myron Thompson.

"For instance, I'm not opposed to gays, but if you bring one of those suckers into my school and they try to push their crap on my students, I have a problem with that. "

- MP Myron Thompson

[Ricki Bobbi]

Best of all, each and everyone of their MPs is a functioning Conservative. No stupid and dysfunctional Liberal, NDP or independent MPs wasting valuable space in the House of Commons. Just smart and open-minded people like MP Myron Thompson. If only other Canadian provinces would see the light!

Wow, that shows how sad your attacks on the Government are.

Does Myron have extreme views? Absolutely.

Does he respresent anything close to the mainsteam of the party? Absolutely not!

Has he been given any sort of power? A cabinet seat? Parliamentary secretaryship? Anything of importance in caucus? No, No, No and No!

btw how old were those quotes?

Interesting how Myron has kept quiet for two consecutive elections. Must drive you nuts you don't have Myron saying foolish things anymore to sink the Conservative's election chances.....

[mikedavid00]

"For instance, I'm not opposed to gays, but if you bring one of those suckers into my school and they try to push their crap on my students, I have a problem with that. "

- MP Myron Thompson

Amazing. We need MORE of this in this country!

[mikedavid00]

The Conservatives lost seats in British Columbia in both of the last two federal elections.

Gee, I wonder why that was.

How could that have possibly happened?

And it happened while the Conservatives gained seats in most of the other provinces. Maybe Westerners, at least those west of the Rockies, have little use for Stephen Harper.

I know, they have to make sure nothing jepordizes their ailing parents waiting to get sponsored into Canada.

This is called loss of politiical power for Canadians.

If they Liberals get their way, they will saturate Alberta with immigrants and turn it Liberal. Volpe basically said this during the last election. This was what Martin was hoping for. But I hope this happens for all that laugh at me and insult me from Alberta. They can see how truly, truly destructive this policy is to Canadians.

[mikedavid00]

Does Myron have extreme views? Absolutely.

Those are not extreme views. A good poritoin of our country most likely agrees with him so he is actually representing the people.

[normanchateau]

Interesting how Myron has kept quiet for two consecutive elections. Must drive you nuts you don't have Myron saying foolish things anymore to sink the Conservative's election chances.....

Fortunately, so-con Stephen Harper continues to speak.

And Stephen's prior statements, no matter how his supporters would wish otherwise, aren't going to evaporate anymore than Myron's previous statements, e.g.,

"The establishment came down with a constitutional package which they put to a national referendum. The package included distinct society status for Quebec and some other changes, including some that would just horrify you, putting universal Medicare in our constitution, and feminist rights, and a whole bunch of other things."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, then vice-president of the National Citizens Coalition, in a June 1997 Montreal meeting of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing American think tank.

"Then there is the Progressive Conservative party, the PC party, which won only 20 seats. Now, the term Progressive Conservative will immediately raise suspicions in all of your minds. It should... They were in favour of gay rights officially, officially for abortion on demand. Officially -- what else can I say about them? Officially for the entrenchment of our universal, collectivized, health-care system and multicultural policies in the constitution of the country."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, then vice-president of the National Citizens Coalition, in a June 1997 Montreal meeting of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing American think tank.

"[Y]our country [the USA], and particularly your conservative movement, is a light and an inspiration to people in this country and across the world."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, then vice-president of the National Citizens Coalition, in a June 1997 Montreal meeting of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing American think tank.

"This party will not take its position based on public opinion polls. We will not take a stand based on focus groups. We will not take a stand based on phone-in shows or householder surveys or any other vagaries of pubic opinion... In my judgment Canada will eventually join with the allied coalition if war on Iraq comes to pass. The government will join, notwithstanding its failure to prepare, its neglect in co-operating with its allies, or its inability to contribute. In the end it will join out of the necessity created by a pattern of uncertainty and indecision. It will not join as a leader but unnoticed at the back of the parade."

- Stephen Harper indicating that, if elected, Canada will join the US occupation of Iraq, Hansard, January 29th 2003.

[jdobbin]

You are in dreamland. Republicans made their bed in the popularity of the War against Iraq. It did have 75% support at one time. The War went south, and so did the Republican Majorities. About as good a storm as the Democrats could get. Harper tied himself to the War in Iraq, he just didn't have to bleed it. And now that his government is in power, they haven't done anything that is really going to make a hill of beans difference in Alberta. It is a blue Province, that is their identity.

And the Tories have hitched their wagon to 2009 in Afghanistan. Support is weak for the mission and falls below majority support every time casualties mount. At the moment, all the Liberals have to do is indicate that they would bring the troops home following the latest timetable.

Howard Dean when he was in Canada said that the Democrats just had to make sure that they campaigned in an area to ensure even safe Republicans had to stay home more often to counter. You disagree with that or do you think that all MPs from Alberta can take their seats for granted and campaign across Canada the entire election?

[jdobbin]

Well, you better start working on it then. It won't just happen without any effort on your behalf.

This is the problem for potential Alberta separatists. They are too comfortable where they are to put themselves up as candidates or to even support a separatist candidate.

[jdobbin]

Exactly what I got from his speeches too. The arrogance, though much more well hidden than Chretien's, is apparent when you take a second glimpse at his speeches.

"I'm here to keep the resource colony in line, don't worry Quebec. You'll be getting your dividends!"

This was a near parallel to Trudeau II's speech to Calgary on the oil industry. What does a Montreal teacher know about our industry? How does he have any right to speak to us on how things should be done coming from an economically depressed province with zero ideas on how to properly run industry?

I must have missed that speech. Was that the Alberta media take on the speech or just yours?

[Ricki Bobbi]

Howard Dean when he was in Canada said that the Democrats just had to make sure that they campaigned in an area to ensure even safe Republicans had to stay home more often to counter. You disagree with that or do you think that all MPs from Alberta can take their seats for granted and campaign across Canada the entire election?

Conservatives don't do that. The only Conservative candidates who didn't spend the majority of their time during the last election in Alberta were Stephen Harper (obviously) and Rob Anders.

This is a huge example the differences between Canadian and US elections that screamer Dean just doesn't get. There isn't enough cash allowed within the spending limits to have regular MPs campaign across the country for the entire election. Flights cost money....

[jdobbin]

Don't worry I have put effort into it as have many others and will continue to. Polls have put support for separation at anywhere between 25 and 40 percent. Goats like Dion and Chretien have always been our best sales men. With the election of Harper it put a wait and see cloud over the process, but even that is beginning to disappear as I suspected it would.

I've heard talk of 40% but never a poll that indicated as such. Even with those numbers though, separation parties in Alberta can't even match Liberal and NDP votes.

[madmax]

And the Tories have hitched their wagon to 2009 in Afghanistan. Support is weak for the mission and falls below majority support every time casualties mount. At the moment, all the Liberals have to do is indicate that they would bring the troops home following the latest timetable.

That is sometime away and lots can happen. As you know I have many reservations about the Afghan mission, that's for another thread...and I don't believe that claiming to leave Afghanistan will get them a single seat in Alberta.

Howard Dean when he was in Canada said that the Democrats just had to make sure that they campaigned in an area to ensure even safe Republicans had to stay home more often to counter. You disagree with that or do you think that all MPs from Alberta can take their seats for granted and campaign across Canada the entire election?

Yes I do, A CPC member can take his seat for granted, with no threat from Liberals. However any seat taken for granted runs the risk of another Conservative challenging for the seat, or possibly as some one else mentioned above, if the neglect or for Grantedness is extreme, the creation of another party.

[B. Max]

Don't worry I have put effort into it as have many others and will continue to. Polls have put support for separation at anywhere between 25 and 40 percent. Goats like Dion and Chretien have always been our best sales men. With the election of Harper it put a wait and see cloud over the process, but even that is beginning to disappear as I suspected it would.

I've heard talk of 40% but never a poll that indicated as such. Even with those numbers though, separation parties in Alberta can't even match Liberal and NDP votes.

There was a poll about a year and half ago that was around forty percent. When the Alberta separation party ran candidates a few years ago they beat the ndp in some ridings. Not bad for a party that had only been formed shortly before the election. A separtists was elected before that in a Red Deer riding. There has always been a fear that we could split the vote and let the liberals in. Something worse than death its self.

[madmax]

I've heard talk of 40% but never a poll that indicated as such. Even with those numbers though, separation parties in Alberta can't even match Liberal and NDP votes.

Yes, with polling numbers of 40% the party garnerned this many votes.

The party took over the rights of the inactive Alberta First Party in June 2004 and changed the party name. The party fielded 12 candidates in the provincial election, held on November 22, 2004. These candidates won a total of 4,680 votes, or 0.5% of the popular vote in the province. Here are the candidates, their ridings, votes and percentages:

Calgary-Fort, Leo Ollenberger, 212 (2.7%)

Calgary-Shaw, Daniel Doher, 171 (1.6%)

Airdrie-Chestermere, Bob Lefurgey, 394 (3.3%)

Drumheller-Stettler, David Carnegie, 465 (4.5%)

Highwood, Corey Morgan, 299 (2.8%)

Little Bow, Grant Shaw, 432 (4.8%)

Livingstone-Macleod, Jim Walker, 339 (3.4%)

Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills, Brian Vasseur, 746 (6.1%)

Red Deer-South, Judy Mine, 261 (2.2%)

Rocky Mountain House, Bruce Hutton, 505 (4.9%)

Strathcona, Roberta McDonald, 297 (2.1%)

Strathmore-Brooks, Jay Kolody, 559 (6.1%)

[normanchateau]

Don't worry I have put effort into it as have many others and will continue to. Polls have put support for separation at anywhere between 25 and 40 percent. Goats like Dion and Chretien have always been our best sales men. With the election of Harper it put a wait and see cloud over the process, but even that is beginning to disappear as I suspected it would.

I've heard talk of 40% but never a poll that indicated as such. Even with those numbers though, separation parties in Alberta can't even match Liberal and NDP votes.

There was a poll about a year and half ago that was around forty percent.

You are referring to the poll published in the Western Standard in August, 2005 which yielded a figure of 42% of Albertans supporting separation. The problem with that poll was how the question was phrased. I don't recall the exact words but it was something to the effect of exploring the idea of forming a new country. Asking people whether they want to explore an idea generates a higher response rate than asking directly about wanting to separate. The pollster, Faron Ellis, was condemned for phrasing the question in a way guaranteed to produce a high percentage of yes responses.

I'm not sure if I'm violating some rules of the board by saying so but there are various blogspots, e.g., Bouquets of Gray, which have exposed Ellis' questionable methodology.

[Ricki Bobbi]

You are referring to the poll published in the Western Standard in August, 2005 which yielded a figure of 42% of Albertans supporting separation. The problem with that poll was how the question was phrased. I don't recall the exact words but it was something to the effect of exploring the idea of forming a new country. Asking people whether they want to explore an idea generates a higher response rate than asking directly about wanting to separate. The pollster, Faron Ellis, was condemned for phrasing the question in a way guaranteed to produce a high percentage of yes responses.

I'm not sure if I'm violating some rules of the board by saying so but there are various blogspots, e.g., Bouquets of Gray, which have exposed Ellis' questionable methodology.

The Western Standard published a poll this fall. the polster was Compas.

It's a pretty vague question.

Do you think Western Canadians should begin to

explore the idea of forming their own country?

Adding up the strongly agrees and somewhat agrees they only got 28% support.

Here is the link to the poll.

[B. Max]

I've heard talk of 40% but never a poll that indicated as such. Even with those numbers though, separation parties in Alberta can't even match Liberal and NDP votes.

Yes, with polling numbers of 40% the party garnerned this many votes.

Bruce Hutton did not run in the election I was talking about, and the 40% poll was taken after the election you are talking about.

[jdobbin]

That is sometime away and lots can happen. As you know I have many reservations about the Afghan mission, that's for another thread...and I don't believe that claiming to leave Afghanistan will get them a single seat in Alberta.

Yes I do, A CPC member can take his seat for granted, with no threat from Liberals. However any seat taken for granted runs the risk of another Conservative challenging for the seat, or possibly as some one else mentioned above, if the neglect or for Grantedness is extreme, the creation of another party.

Bush thought nothing would touch him on Iraq either. It is relevant as an issue that could effect votes in a place like Alberta. By spring of this year, it could be a huge factor in support.

Know one knows if the Taliban will be cleared out of southern Afghanistan by the time an election is called. What ever message the Tories might want to get out in an election could be affected by casualties in Afghanistan. Moreover, if the Tories are asked to extend again in the next months, it won't be an easy task and could be held against them if prospects are poor.

There may be two or three seats in Edmonton where the Conservative candidate would pretty much have to stay in place if the Liberals ran hard against them. A few of those seats are winnable under a variety of circumstances and Afghanistan is one those circumstances.