Afghan mission "doomed to fail"

scribblet · January 21, 2007

We have to stay in Afghanistan for some time at least, and while fighting the terrorists, also concentrate on helping the people. At some point in the future we will have to pull out, maybe leaving a force there to help build schools etc.

There are still troops in Europe 60+ years of WW II.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4989456.stm#jamail

I want to express my thanks to the foreign troops who protected us from the cruelty of the Taleban and al-Qaeda.

Canada works hard for human rights and the Rule of Law,and as I said earlier, is a leading advocate of the "responsibility to protect" doctrine, which asserts that wealthy nations have a duty to prevent human-rights abuses in other nations. If we abandon one of the world's poorest countries we would surely be sending a negative message about the value Canadians place on basic human rights.

madmax · January 21, 2007

We have to stay in Afghanistan for some time at least, and while fighting the terrorists, also concentrate on helping the people. At some point in the future we will have to pull out, maybe leaving a force there to help build schools etc.
There are still troops in Europe 60+ years of WW II.

Canada works hard for human rights and the Rule of Law,and as I said earlier, is a leading advocate of the "responsibility to protect" doctrine, which asserts that wealthy nations have a duty to prevent human-rights abuses in other nations. If we abandon one of the world's poorest countries we would surely be sending a negative message about the value Canadians place on basic human rights.

I just thought I would pull your ealier post from a few days back.

Canada has worked hard with loss of life to promote human rights and democracy in Afghanistan. Canada is also leading advocate of the "responsibility to protect" doctrine, which asserts that wealthy nations have a duty to prevent humanrights abuses in other countries.
If we abandon Afghanistan, one the world's poorest countries what kind of a message would that send, and what would it say about future missions. I think it would say that we place no value on human rights and that we are too willing to abandon the neediest when the going gets tough. We have to help Afghanstan from slipping backwards into anarchy.

Just to keep people on topic of what we are discussing and how to achieve that goal. .

scribblet · January 21, 2007

I am on topic, and I said I was repeating what I had said earlier, what's your point - oh never mind.,..just keep trucking on.

Army Guy · January 22, 2007

I've been here for almost 5 months now and soon it will be our turn to rotate home. I've continuly posted on this forum because i thought i could bring a soldiers perspective to things happening here in Afgan, but instead found myself even more limited in what i could say or post due to Operation Security, but even with one arm tied behind my back i thought i could convince a few non believers into seeing what good we are doing here.

But i was wrong, those that are again'st this mission will not be swayed, for many reasons, Our government has done a horriable job of getting our accomplishments out, the media for the most part are not telling the whole story, yes there is a few exceptions of reporters that have gone outside the wire with us, they have told the story , they have told the story first hand, but those are the exception ,the rare exception...when the bulk of the reporters here have not even been outside the wire. The press coverage has been so bad lately i've stopped downloading it on to my laptop to share with the rest of the platoon, because it was effecting moral.

I don't think alot of Canadians know just how thier public opinion effects how this conflict is being won or lost.

Nor do they care one way or another. Just as long as they have a cause or something to piont there fingers at , "this is bushes war, this war is unwinniable, what ever the cause. What is frustrating to soldiers is to watch all thier daily sacrafices being slowly eroded over what the public in Canada believe is happening over in Afgan.

What i do know is in the weeks to come i'll be leaving Afgan to come home, knowing in the back of my mind that myself and my section have made postive changes here in Afgan, Changes that we are proud of, that we have done everything within our power to accomplish the mission that our nation has given us. The same Nation who's slim majority has forgotten why they sent us over there to start with. So when we all look back thru history let it clearly be shown that our nations military had done everything it was asked of and more.

I've added the below link because it descrides a soldiers opinion better than i could. Canadian public opinion does matter, and it does reflect on the enemies tactics, and the lives of Canadian soldiers. And is starting to effect the moral of our soldiers...

My Webpage

Catchme · January 22, 2007

Canadian public opinion does matter, and it does reflect on the enemies tactics, and the lives of Canadian soldiers. And is starting to effect the moral of our soldiers...

Of course, Canadian public opinion matters we are the ones footing the bill, some more so than most.

Suggesting that Canadians should change our opinion that we should not be in Afganistan, so soldier moral is higher is not logical, nor even supported by any rational facts The best way we can protect our military's lives is to get them out of Afghanistan, a place where we have NO right being, a place where we are not wanted and a place where we are NOT doing what we went there to do.

How Candian public opinion reflects upon Taliban tactics is even more spurious of a comment, nor does it reflect upon the facts on the ground. Talibam numbers are increasing because the regular Afghans do not like the actions of those occupying their country in propping up a corrupt government plus other reasons. There has been much information provided here attesting to this.

scribblet · January 22, 2007

What i do know is in the weeks to come i'll be leaving Afgan to come home, knowing in the back of my mind that myself and my section have made postive changes here in Afgan, Changes that we are proud of, that we have done everything within our power to accomplish the mission that our nation has given us. The same Nation who's slim majority has forgotten why they sent us over there to start with. So when we all look back thru history let it clearly be shown that our nations military had done everything it was asked of and more.
I've added the below link because it descrides a soldiers opinion better than i could. Canadian public opinion does matter, and it does reflect on the enemies tactics, and the lives of Canadian soldiers. And is starting to effect the moral of our soldiers...

My Webpage

Good post armyguy and thanks for the link.

Fortunately our gov't believes in keeping its obligations; in this case the NATO self-defence clause -- Article 5 of the Washington Treaty -- which asks NATO members to support a U.S.-led mission in Afghanistan. Canada shares the burden of helping Afghanistan be freer. Not to mention that we committed to helping Afghanistan become stable, and to assist in the reconstruction, we should continue to fulfil those obligations.

I agree about public opinion, the Taliban has satellite, they know that the more Canadians it kills the more the public will want out, it plays on that and will continue to attempt the demoralization of our troops and the public. People who rant about getting out are playing into the Taliban's hands - you know - 'Lenin's useful idiots.'

bush_cheney2004 · January 22, 2007

I agree about public opinion, the Taliban has satellite, they know that the more Canadians it kills the more the public will want out, it plays on that and will continue to attempt the demoralization of our troops and the public. People who rant about getting out are playing into the Taliban's hands - you know - 'Lenin's useful idiots.'

Right...Army Guy has reported this reality. It is pointless for soldiers to proudly do their duty and maintain resolve while getting fragged back home with "Support Our Troops, but Hate The War!" Canadian Forces are supporting a mission defined by Canadian obligations to NATO, foreign policy values, and elected political leadership.

The worst of the scoundrels are so defeated already that they only see a Canadian "exit" from Afghanistan if the USA leaves, disconnecting Canadian Forces from independent domestic leadership entirely.

Canadian Blue · January 23, 2007

Suggesting that Canadians should change our opinion that we should not be in Afganistan, so soldier moral is higher is not logical, nor even supported by any rational facts The best way we can protect our military's lives is to get them out of Afghanistan, a place where we have NO right being, a place where we are not wanted and a place where we are NOT doing what we went there to do.

Canadian's are evenly divided, and the UN sanction's what the Canadian Forces is doing there.

How Candian public opinion reflects upon Taliban tactics is even more spurious of a comment, nor does it reflect upon the facts on the ground. Talibam numbers are increasing because the regular Afghans do not like the actions of those occupying their country in propping up a corrupt government plus other reasons. There has been much information provided here attesting to this.

From obviously biased sites, I have shown that many people in Afghanistan want us to stay out of fear of the Taliban coming back.

The government in Afghanistan is corrupt, what do you think the Taliban was all about.

weaponeer · January 23, 2007

Well I recieved my orders today, I leave in Apr for 6 months.....

Canadian Blue · January 23, 2007

Stay safe weaponeer...

Catchme · January 23, 2007

Suggesting that Canadians should change our opinion that we should not be in Afganistan, so soldier moral is higher is not logical, nor even supported by any rational facts

Canadian's are evenly divided, and the UN sanction's what the Canadian Forces is doing there.

How Candian public opinion reflects upon Taliban tactics is even more spurious of a comment, nor does it reflect upon the facts on the ground. Talibam numbers are increasing because the regular Afghans do not like the actions of those occupying their country in propping up a corrupt government plus other reasons. There has been much information provided here attesting to this.

From obviously biased sites, I have shown that many people in Afghanistan want us to stay out of fear of the Taliban coming back.

The government in Afghanistan is corrupt, what do you think the Taliban was all about.

Obviously biased sites?

RAWA is biased? It is Afghan women's voice.

Amnesty International? A biased site?

Human Rights Watch a biased site?

Afghan Watch a biased site?

As opposed to the 1 BBC link you provided. And no respectfully, you have NOT shown any such thing. And please do provide proof that says Canadians are an even split. The recent Canwest poll is a canard waste of time so please do not bother posting it. The fact that they say it is exclusive poll and will not let anyone access the questions and the answers means they were selective in order to get what they wanted from it.

O'Connor won't even say Afghans want us there, his words were: " the Karzi government wants us there", just yesterday when speaking to the military in Edmonton. He basically said because after the retribution aspect of it, it benefits us. How does it benefit us? Retribution?

Excuse me, if Canadians were polled asking if they felt we were there for the sake of retribution they would be quite upset. Thousands of innocent Afghans dead, the country littered with depleted uranium casings, 10's of thousands Afghans starving, Canadian military personal killed, , how many 100's of our military injured and/or permanently disabled, hundreds of family members and friends affected, 1.5 billion in Canadian tax dollars a year to be there, plus all the new equipment on top of that, all for the sake of retribution? Retribution for what? Retribution against whom?

weaponeer · January 23, 2007

CB,

Thanks I should be OK. It's the pre-deployment I am worried about. I'm 36, 13km marches hurt:)

I will go to Pet for training, then I have to go on a quick course in Norway, should be good.

Canadian Blue · January 23, 2007

Amnesty International? A biased site?
Human Rights Watch a biased site?

When did you post link's to Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. As for RAWA it's an interesting read but I posed a question about how they think Afghanistan will be better off without NATO there, and as far as I can tell it would get 10X worse.

Believe it or not Canadian soldiers are better than the Taliban. If droves of Afghan's were going to the Taliban we'd be hearing about a civil war right about now.

As for the BBC link, it showed what the views of the average Afghan were, to show that you catchme don't speak for all of the Afghan people.

O'Connor won't even say Afghans want us there, his words were: " the Karzi government wants us there", just yesterday when speaking to the military in Edmonton. He basically said because after the retribution aspect of it, it benefits us. How does it benefit us? Retribution?
Excuse me, if Canadians were polled asking if they felt we were there for the sake of retribution they would be quite upset. Thousands of innocent Afghans dead, the country littered with depleted uranium casings, 10's of thousands Afghans starving, Canadian military personal killed, , how many 100's of our military injured and/or permanently disabled, hundreds of family members and friends affected, 1.5 billion in Canadian tax dollars a year to be there, plus all the new equipment on top of that, all for the sake of retribution? Retribution for what? Retribution against whom?

So we should have shrugged off 9/11 and the terrible deaths of 3,000 innocents, and continue to allow Al Queda to operate freely within Afghanistan.

CB,
Thanks I should be OK. It's the pre-deployment I am worried about. I'm 36, 13km marches hurt:)

I will go to Pet for training, then I have to go on a quick course in Norway, should be good.

Norway sound's alot better than Pet.

What job are you going to be doing in the Stan, we have one guy in my unit that went over as well recently.

weaponeer · January 23, 2007

CB,

OPSEC, all I can say is Air Ops. HQ job....

Army Guy · January 23, 2007

Poser:

Of course, Canadian public opinion matters we are the ones footing the bill, some more so than most.

I don't think you get the piont, Canadian public opinion is effecting the outcome of this war period. Not because your footing the bill, because the Canadian public can't make up thier damn minds what they want to do..A war that was supported by the majority of Canadians at the start, and is now being influenced by poor government coverage, poor media coverage, and lobby groups, or peace groups that have no real idea on the situation on the ground. Combine all of that with the opostion using it to grab votes.

I find it ironic that your opinion matters because you pay taxes, and yet soldiers opinions are disregarded for no reason, and the last time i checked i did pay taxes, and i'm allowed to vote. And while your only contribution to this mission is a small protion of your tax bill, every soldier also puts his life on the line every day and still his opions are disregarded or brushed off as government heresay.

I'll repeat my offer, not happy with the mission then send me your address and i'll give you back your tax contributution that is being used to support this mission.

Suggesting that Canadians should change our opinion that we should not be in Afganistan, so soldier moral is higher is not logical, nor even supported by any rational facts The best way we can protect our military's lives is to get them out of Afghanistan, a place where we have NO right being, a place where we are not wanted and a place where we are NOT doing what we went there to do.

I'm not suggesting doing it for our moral, i'm saying if you had the balls to agree with the government to send us over here in the first place then you should show some conviction to see the mission thru...It cost you a few bucks to do so, while it may cost soldiers thier lives and yet they are still supporting the mission, WHY?

Why out of Afgan, you have a more noble mission for us, perhaps we can try them all until we find one more to your liking. No thanks we have a mission , one that we have already heavily invested into, and we are not about to give up and go home because it does not live up to your standards, because Canadian soldiers are carrying guns with real bullets, and are actually taking lives. Protecting our lives, NO sir, you are putting them in harms way, by supporting the same objectives as the enemy. As for not doing what we came here to do , you need to check the first roto in here ask the PPCLI what they were doing when they got here. Our primary task was to hunt down them taliban scumbags and send them to allah, The government made this very clear, this was our job, not serving tea, not handing out teddy bears but taking the fight to the taliban.

How Candian public opinion reflects upon Taliban tactics is even more spurious of a comment, nor does it reflect upon the facts on the ground. Talibam numbers are increasing because the regular Afghans do not like the actions of those occupying their country in propping up a corrupt government plus other reasons. There has been much information provided here attesting to this.

Spurious, really, Name one battle the Taliban have won, NATO has beaten them in every engagement. They know they can not defeat NATO in conventional fighting. But they are not fighting a tactical war they are fighting stratgic war. That war is being fought on your TV set, and in the minds of every Canadian. they know convince the people that this war is unwinniable, or bush quest for world power, what ever, once they convince you to change your minds, winning battles does not matter, when the people demand thier troops go home, governments will listen or fad into the sunset, giving them the victory they are looking for.

So it's not us that are lossing this war it's you.

Taliban numbers are not increasing, infact they are decreasing, the area that operation madusa covered is almost devoid of taliban how to you explain that, infact recently a Canadian media team went back into the area with out a miliatry escort, and reported those facts...how do you explain that.

Army Guy · January 23, 2007

weaponeer:

I wish you luck, and may your ROTO have better luck than ours. The only advice i can give you is soak up every medical lecture you can, and make sure you have it down pat..and ask alot of questions, and one last bit of advice, buy some kit, drop bags for large medi packs, and another for extra ammo, Pet has alot of good kit available at the kit shops, buy it here in Canada or you'll pay thru the ass over in Afgan.. Never leave camp with less than 12 to 15 mags of 5.56, and carry a pistol with extra mags as well...the more ammo the better...

scribblet · January 23, 2007

Spurious, really, Name one battle the Taliban have won, NATO has beaten them in every engagement. They know they can not defeat NATO in conventional fighting. But they are not fighting a tactical war they are fighting stratgic war. That war is being fought on your TV set, and in the minds of every Canadian. they know convince the people that this war is unwinniable, or bush quest for world power, what ever, once they convince you to change your minds, winning battles does not matter, when the people demand thier troops go home, governments will listen or fad into the sunset, giving them the victory they are looking for.
So it's not us that are lossing this war it's you.

Taliban numbers are not increasing, infact they are decreasing, the area that operation madusa covered is almost devoid of taliban how to you explain that, infact recently a Canadian media team went back into the area with out a miliatry escort, and reported those facts...how do you explain that.

I suspect that anything disagreed with would be spurious....LOL

I enjoy your posts, keep it up.

To Weaponeer: Good luck and thanks

Catchme · January 23, 2007

Of course, Canadian public opinion matters we are the ones footing the bill, some more so than most.
I find it ironic that your opinion matters because you pay taxes, and yet soldiers opinions are disregarded for no reason...And while your only contribution to this mission is a small protion of your tax bill, every soldier also puts his life on the line every day and still his opions are disregarded or brushed off as government heresay.
...i'm saying if you had the balls to agree with the government to send us over here in the first place then you should show some conviction to see the mission thru...

Taliban numbers are not increasing, infact they are decreasing, the area that operation madusa covered is almost devoid of taliban how to you explain that, infact recently a Canadian media team went back into the area with out a miliatry escort, and reported those facts...how do you explain that.

No, sorry, I do not believe Canadian soldier's opinions trump that of Afghans living there and experiencing what is going on and that is reason enough to disregard. Then when O'Connor starts spewing crap like we are there for retribution, you know it's all wrong.

Canadians DID NOT send out military there for retribution. Our military until 2003 was there for technical support, the Liberals ramped it up toappease the USA, and now Harper has gone well beyond the mandate that some Canadians agreed to send them there with.

You cannot say the majority of Canadians agreed to the current actions of our military it simply isn't true.

Nor, was I one who even agreed for a minute, with any deployment supporting the insanity of the USA, my stance has NOT changed. Why would I need balls to agree with sending our military to Afghanistan? There is NO way we should have been anywhere near that mess end of story!

Interesting NEWS today on this front and so much for those saying there needs to combat there! Moreover they STATE outright there has been Taliban resurgence, in contrary to the denials and professed "knowing" by some here :rolleyes:

:

U.S. Forces Adapt to Non-Combat Role in Afghanistan
...After confronting a resurgent Taleban last year, U.S. and allied troops have been warned to expect an even greater onslaught in 2007...

The U.S. military takes pride in its war-fighting ability, but its experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is forcing a re-examination of non-combat roles....Defense analyst John Pike says that in order to deliver, the American military is having to adapt. "The U.S. Army does know how to do this. It's just that not very many soldiers in the Army are trained in this particular specialty. So, it's been very much a learning experience on the part of infantry, armor, artillery soldiers to learn these civil affairs skills and to apply them in practice."

In addition to their military duties, U.S. troops are helping to restore, and in many cases, create Afghan infrastructure.

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/new...0701230007.html

It's certainly too bad the Canadian military did not HOLD FIRM on what they were doing there in the first place, and instead let themselves be swayed and sucked into by US military thinking, and commenced to conduct themselves accordingly. Perhaps things would've have been much better for Afghans if they had remained on the mandate that Canadians had atually approved of!

Now, the USA has found they're wrong. and think they to commence what was known in the first place in order to succeed!

Is it too late is the question?

The other question is, are they only saying this so they can pull combat battalions out of Afghanistan?

bush_cheney2004 · January 23, 2007

...Canadians DID NOT send out military there for retribution. Our military until 2003 was there for technical support, the Liberals ramped it up toappease the USA, and now Harper has gone well beyond the mandate that some Canadians agreed to send them there with...

This is patently false. Canadian Forces supported offensive operations starting in 2001 (Operation Apollo) via UN Security Council Resolution 1368.

IIRC, a Canadian broke the long distance sniper record during Operation Anaconda in 2002 using a MacMillan TAC-50 .50-calibre rifle and Yankee ammo/spotter. I guess you could call that "technical support".

diablo · January 23, 2007

How long will it be before educated peoples of the world see the present danger?Do they have to be struck by lightning before they will believe that it is there?

North Korea wants Nukes they are a solid Muslim majority country.Why do they want Nukes?Iran wants nukes.They also are a solid Muslim majority.They want Nukes for what reason?

The answers are obvious to anyone.They get nukes and they will anniliate Irsrael plunging the globe into world war 3.

Our christian religions are many but each is based on how that denomination interprets the Holy Bible.

Fanatic Muslim sects do the same with the Koran.They are willing to die by any means just to kill infidels.They will gain glory with Allah if they destroy many.Infidels are all christians religions folks and that includes north america.

It is the most necessary agenda of our time that we be there and confront the dangers.If we and the USA bring all our troops home, the Fanatics will celebrate for a while and then attack without fear of reprisal.

If they feel secure that they can attack with terrorist methods and return to those countries because our people vote not to go after them,then Ladies and Gentlemen,we will have a much larger and deadlier danger comming top us.

I believe people should take time to think before they rush out to pressure government policy.

Catchme · January 23, 2007

Bouquets go out from me, to a Canadian Unit in Afghanistan, for doing the correct thing instead of just killing fiirst and asking questions later:

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - An Afghan man is in stable condition in a NATO hospital at Kandahar Airfield (KAF) and recovering from a bullet wound after he was shot off his motorcycle by a Canadian soldier outside Kandahar City Monday night.
The man ignored shouts and three warning shots as he was approaching a Canadian military convoy which had stopped after one of its vehicles had driven off the road, according to a spokeswoman for the Canadian military based at KAF.

"We asked him to stop, using hand gestures and shouting ... but he failed to stop," said Lt. Sue Stefko.

After three warning shots were fired in his direction and the motorcyclist still failed to stop, Stefko said an "aimed shot hit him in the leg."

Good Job!

Wilber · January 23, 2007

North Korea wants Nukes they are a solid Muslim majority country.

North Korea is a Muslim country. When did that happen?

Canadian Blue · January 23, 2007

Bouquets go out from me, to a Canadian Unit in Afghanistan, for doing the correct thing instead of just killing fiirst and asking questions later:
QUOTE

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - An Afghan man is in stable condition in a NATO hospital at Kandahar Airfield (KAF) and recovering from a bullet wound after he was shot off his motorcycle by a Canadian soldier outside Kandahar City Monday night.

The man ignored shouts and three warning shots as he was approaching a Canadian military convoy which had stopped after one of its vehicles had driven off the road, according to a spokeswoman for the Canadian military based at KAF.

"We asked him to stop, using hand gestures and shouting ... but he failed to stop," said Lt. Sue Stefko.

After three warning shots were fired in his direction and the motorcyclist still failed to stop, Stefko said an "aimed shot hit him in the leg."

They followed proper procedure, needless to say though if someone was speeding towards me despite three warning shot's and hand gestures and yelling tell him to do so, the Canadian's shouldn't be judged if they had shot him multiple times in the chest.

Catchme · January 23, 2007

Of course, they should be judged as being wrong if they shot him/another 3 times in the chest, by your own admission, they would not have been following "proceedures" had they done that. That would've have signified they were at the very least being "hot shots" or reacting to fear, either one should not be governing the day over there.

The fact that they did neither, says much positive about how some Canadian military are conducting themselves while there, which says much about their character.

scribblet · January 24, 2007

...Canadians DID NOT send out military there for retribution. Our military until 2003 was there for technical support, the Liberals ramped it up toappease the USA, and now Harper has gone well beyond the mandate that some Canadians agreed to send them there with...

This is patently false. Canadian Forces supported offensive operations starting in 2001 (Operation Apollo) via UN Security Council Resolution 1368.

Thanks for that info, I knew it to be false but didn't want to search for it.