If the 407 is private...

[Charles Anthony]

I have driven through the 407 only once and that was about 10 years ago. I have driven the 401 from top to bottom several times and quite recently. Ever since the 407 opened, driving through Toronto along the 401 has been smoother at all hours and holidays. Why the driver of a passenger-vehicle would want to pay extra to drive through the 407, I do not know. I will leave that to the Torontonians. My guess is that the 407-fairy has a magic spell to cure bad driving.

This argument illustrates why some essential services should never be run by a private company. If the gov't needs to act as a collection agent for a private business to avoid inconveniencing the public then the gov't should be providing the service.

That is no argument at all but rather, that is an excuse -- an excuse to convince people to follow the path of more government.

It could still be cheaper and more efficient to have the private company provide the "essential" services and the government collect the bills.

The snow clearance issue is problematic, but I'd say that's mostly due to the fault of the government for not being more clear in the contract... rules and penalties for not following them should have been clearly laid out.

It is a simple cost benefit calculation for private company: if the revenue generated by travellers is expected to be less than the cost of clearing the highway then shut the highway down. Yet another reason why the economics of major highways require state ownership.

It is only a simple calculation because the private company has the crutch of coercive government for everything else. For example, the government will deal with cleaning up casualties on the road and the grid-lock around a closed road and all of the law/security/justice/punishment demands that follow. Take all of the responsibility-shirking allowed by government and then try to say that it is a simple cost-benefit analysis for the private company to shirk one's responsibility.

The 407 is already the most expensive highway and we don't need more of these.

How would YOU manage the 407 if you owned it all -- land included?

[Renegade]

will never come to fruition.

The 407 is already the most expensive highway and we don't need more of these.

You have stated it is a bad idea, but you do not state why. Enlighten us on why it is a bad idea for users to pay for the roads they use.

Your answer is provided in this thread.

max, I wouldn't have asked if I saw the answer elsewhere in the thread. Please be so kind as to quote what you mean.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

I have driven through the 407 only once and that was about 10 years ago. I have driven the 401 from top to bottom several times and quite recently. Ever since the 407 opened, driving through Toronto along the 401 has been smoother at all hours and holidays. Why the driver of a passenger-vehicle would want to pay extra to drive through the 407, I do not know. I will leave that to the Torontonians. My guess is that the 407-fairy has a magic spell to cure bad driving.

During off peak times the 401 isn't bad to drive, but in the morning rush and the afternoon rush it can take a long time to get across the city. The 407 helps, but even it gets jammed, especially at the east and west ends at about 6pm every weekday. For many that work in the area, the 407 is a necessity. If I have 3 stops to make being in Markham, Concord, and Brampton (as I do daily), then it makes no sense to drive a few km south, sit in traffic in the 401 just to drive a few km back north, then south again, etc., etc.. The alternative is to take Highway #7 which runs parallel to the 407, and this has become significantly better since the 407 opened, but it is still a slow route... lots of traffic, many traffic lights - makes for a long journey across the top of the city.

I no longer take the 407 for personal use, only for business, so I never actually see a bill. I do know, however, that it is a pricey road to drive on. There is a calculator on the web site: https://www2.407etr.com/TollCalculator/tolls_calculator.aspx

If I drive from Airport Road to Kennedy Road, straight across the top of the city, with a transponder that's $5.55, without it's $9.05. Times that by 2 if you need to come back, multiply that by 20 if you need to do it every work day... becomes significant - becomes more than my monthly insurance bill.

[scribblet]

I've driven both many times and always the Canyon route is safer. The hills are not as steep as the Coq -- in the summer your vehicle overheats and in the winter it's too snowy/slippery.

Also, the lanes aren't right -- the "banking" of the lanes is all wrong making driving difficult.

When the banking isn't right on a highway its called a reverse camber, I wonder why they build the that way, why not with the correct camber...hmmmm

[geoffrey]

I've driven both many times and always the Canyon route is safer. The hills are not as steep as the Coq -- in the summer your vehicle overheats and in the winter it's too snowy/slippery.

Also, the lanes aren't right -- the "banking" of the lanes is all wrong making driving difficult.

When the banking isn't right on a highway its called a reverse camber, I wonder why they build the that way, why not with the correct camber...hmmmm

I think it was to help with that icy/snowy concept mentioned by Drea.

Canyon is safer, Coq is faster.

[August1991]

There are several issues involved here.

Here's an interesting one. A bill came the other day for our daughter in law from the 407, she's died 6years ago on the 8 th of December. They are going to take her to small claims court.

I am sorry for your daughter in law.

But why is it that it is unforgiveable to steal a dinner plate from someone's home but a humourous anecdote to steal one from Wal-Mart?

Your daughter-in-law drove on the 407. She or her estate should have paid. The 407 corporation has every right to seek payment as a landlord or her nephew who was promised an inheritance.

----

Was the 407 given a special deal by the Harris government? Dunno. I thought the Rae NDP government approved the 407. Anyway, governments move ownership claims around in such frequent manner that I don't know if I want to get involved in figuring the complexities. Read the history of the CPR. IOW, given the long term, I think Bob Rae decided rightly.

----

The 407 is the future of driving. The photo license cameras are now used in San Diego and London and are being tested on bridges in the US. The transponders are standard and are likely to become standard at the factory gate, like air bags. Every car in North America will have a radio identifier and wherever and whenever it drives, the owner will be charged.

Montreal recently raised the downtown street parking fee from $2 to $3 per hour, payable by credit card at any sidewalk post. Users want payment by Internet. There's talk of bridge/tunnel tolls, by transponder.

Politicians are beginning to understand that charging money for the use of public roads is politically popular. Within 10-20 years, drivers will be charged for road use as they are now charged for cell phone use.

Milton Friedman regretted his idea of income tax withholding since it made big government possible. (Yes, Friedman invented payroll deduction.) Maybe Bob Rae will regret approving the 407. If he's an environmentalist, he won't. IMV, it was one of his best decisions.

Margrace, you'll have no sympathy from me for your daughter-in-law's debt to the 407. She used the road. She should pay. We all should pay for our use of roads, and the environment around us.

The environment is not free, despite how it appears. Unfortunately, our planet's environment has no owner. It is sadly an orphan open to abuse.

[Wild Bill]

Just got stung!

10 years ago I got a 407 transponder. I used it a few times and then due to job changes I didn't drive the 407 any more. So I tried to cancel my account.

At that time if you went to their website there was no link or mention at all as to how to cancel your account. I tried a few times to phone. It was a total joke. An automated receptionist that sent you round and round and eventually dumped the line. So I wrote out a letter, bundled it up with their transponder and sent it back to them by Puro.

I have not driven the 407 since, which is about 10 years.

Every so often they would send me bills! No tolls, of course. I never drove their highway. It was for the transponder. Once in a while I tried to phone and reach someone to clear it up but just got frustrated.

Eventually, I got put to a collection agency who kept phoning and phoning. By this time I was angry! The collection agency still didn't use a human being, just a recording.

Finally a human being called and I explained the whole matter. He cheerfully promised that if I just paid the ~$30 bill he would make sure the account was closed and things would go away. So like a fool, I paid him.

Of course, he just wanted the bill paid. Nothing changed as far as closing the account down.

Eventually the phone calls stopped. Once in a while I'd get a statement showing no tolls but more transponder charges. I just tossed them aside.

Finally I got another call at the start of the summer from a human being. I told the whole story yet again. She told me to fax it in writing to a specific number. I told them what 407ETR could do with their fax!

My first mistake. I assumed that the worst that could happen was I'd get called to court. I would have LOVED to tell my story to a judge!

Then one of the statements came registered mail. I ignored it.

My second mistake.

Today I went down to renew my car plates. I was told that I have to pay $220 in 407ETR fees or no plates! It seems that now MCGuinty's government has allowed 407ETR to do this, in effect punishing us BEFORE it is established that 407ETR is correct about a dispute!

I promptly drove over to my MPP's office, not a Liberal BTW. A very helpful lady called the 407ETR. SHE got to speak to a real person! There is a dispute process and it has been started. Meanwhile, if I want my plates I have to pay the money and trust that someday they will return it.

I heard a year or two ago that the 407ETR has over 800,000 billing disputes! I couldn't begin to count all the folks I know who have had a problem with them. I never believed a provincial government would allow them to use the plate renewal ministry as their collection agent. With all these disputes I thought it would be extremely dumb, politically! I guess I was wrong.

Anyhow, just a word to the wise. I'm sure there are others out there in a similar situation. Even though 407ETR is a private company, like any government department it's your problem and your time and effort required to correct their mistake, even if they won't respond to you anyway.

This highway collects the highest tolls in North America. It is a licence to print money. Now it has the provincial government as their enforcement agent.

Here is a link:

http://www.407etr.com/Products/platedenial.htm

This explains the legal decision to grant them this power. The reasoning appears to be to give them the power to force payment from delinquent accounts. There is a dispute mechanism but even if 407ETR is in the wrong it puts the onus of proof solely on the subscriber.

I'm not confident that if someone else has a dispute they can get it resolved. I'm just warning of what to expect when you go to renew your plates.

Needless to say, this is one more reason why I could never vote Liberal again!

[guyser]

It has been a scam since being sold. Sad to say I had a family member heavily involved in its birth.

The OPP are also free to enforce the ETR's wishes. I sure would like the OPP to collect on some delinquent accounts I hold.

[Shakeyhands]

Today I went down to renew my car plates. I was told that I have to pay $220 in 407ETR fees or no plates! It seems that now MCGuinty's government has allowed 407ETR to do this, in effect punishing us BEFORE it is established that 407ETR is correct about a dispute!

I promptly drove over to my MPP's office, not a Liberal BTW. A very helpful lady called the 407ETR. SHE got to speak to a real person! There is a dispute process and it has been started. .....................................

Needless to say, this is one more reason why I could never vote Liberal again!

Sorry Bill to hear about your situation, but, I'm confused. What has this got to do with the Liberals?

[Wild Bill]

Sorry Bill to hear about your situation, but, I'm confused. What has this got to do with the Liberals?

This is the first time the Ministry of Transport has acted as the collection agency for the 407ETR. It has been mentioned for years but never actually implemented. The huge amount of billing disputes is common knowledge. I always assumed that it would never actually happen, since politically any party that allowed this would conceivably have all those denied plates because of their inept billing methods blaming the incumbent government for allowing it.

I was wrong. Either McGuinty's crew are dumb or asleep at the switch. The lady at my MPP's office was professional enough not to say anything partisan but she did admit that she has been handling a LOT of complaints like mine! Since her boss is in opposition it's obvious that she takes some delight in the situation.

[guyser]

This is the first time the Ministry of Transport has acted as the collection agency for the 407ETR.

I was under the impression it had been around for years and it has but in 2005 a court ruling made it mandatory that they refuse should an outstanding debt be shown.

Prior to that they could have refused you plates.

Drive a truck and the plates come up on an OPP computer...?....you can be pulled over and ordered to pay the fines.

[Wild Bill]

I was under the impression it had been around for years and it has but in 2005 a court ruling made it mandatory that they refuse should an outstanding debt be shown.

Prior to that they could have refused you plates.

Drive a truck and the plates come up on an OPP computer...?....you can be pulled over and ordered to pay the fines.

Mandatory in 2005? I dunno. My problem dates back for 10 years and this is the first year this has happened.

Given the high number of account screwups, this may prove to be an election issue. I certainly hope so and fully intend to help it along.

It looks like I'm forced to pay an extra $220 to get my plates. I've started the dispute but although the ruling says that there is an independent tribunal to make a decision and my money will eventually be returned I have little to no confidence that the system will actually work. Certainly it will not be quick.

My biggest worry is that given my past experience with these bozos they will still keep my old account open and I will have to poney up EVERY year until I die!

[charter.rights]

Mandatory in 2005? I dunno. My problem dates back for 10 years and this is the first year this has happened.

Given the high number of account screwups, this may prove to be an election issue. I certainly hope so and fully intend to help it along.

It looks like I'm forced to pay an extra $220 to get my plates. I've started the dispute but although the ruling says that there is an independent tribunal to make a decision and my money will eventually be returned I have little to no confidence that the system will actually work. Certainly it will not be quick.

My biggest worry is that given my past experience with these bozos they will still keep my old account open and I will have to poney up EVERY year until I die!

The ability of the ETR to collect fees was challenged a number of years back and struck down. On appeal and some government changes to the laws put it back. You can be refused a license plate for not paying ETR usage fees, including not payng for a transponder.

You do realize that as a Corporation the Province of Ontario is not there for our interests, but to protect the interests of other incorporated businesses, right. Legally, the Province has no legal obligation to us. We are merely minor share holders, with the major shareholders calling the shots.

[Topaz]

I KNOW the MTO has a problem. I live way down by Windsor On and I got a bill in the mail couple years ago that my license plate # had been photoed by the 407 toll. I called and told them that ... I have never been on the 407 and don't know where it is, I've only been to TO once in the my life and that was 35 years ago and they better check again. It turns out that the license plate was the same as mine but it was on a honda and I have a buick! I didn`t have to pay the toll and this happen again months later and I didn`t have to pay for that time either.

[Kitch]

Even though 407ETR is a private company, like any government department it's your problem and your time and effort required to correct their mistake, even if they won't respond to you anyway.

I sympathize with your situation, for sure. But I'm curious...

What do you mean "even though" it is a private company? Do you believe that private companies, by virtue of being private, are always 'good' or always act in the best interest of the customers?

[madmax]

Just got stung!

10 years ago I got a 407 transponder. I used it a few times and then due to job changes I didn't drive the 407 any more. So I tried to cancel my account.

At that time if you went to their website there was no link or mention at all as to how to cancel your account. I tried a few times to phone. It was a total joke. An automated receptionist that sent you round and round and eventually dumped the line. So I wrote out a letter, bundled it up with their transponder and sent it back to them by Puro.

I have not driven the 407 since, which is about 10 years.

Every so often they would send me bills! No tolls, of course. I never drove their highway. It was for the transponder. Once in a while I tried to phone and reach someone to clear it up but just got frustrated.

Eventually, I got put to a collection agency who kept phoning and phoning. By this time I was angry! The collection agency still didn't use a human being, just a recording.

Finally a human being called and I explained the whole matter. He cheerfully promised that if I just paid the ~$30 bill he would make sure the account was closed and things would go away. So like a fool, I paid him.

Of course, he just wanted the bill paid. Nothing changed as far as closing the account down.

Eventually the phone calls stopped. Once in a while I'd get a statement showing no tolls but more transponder charges. I just tossed them aside.

Finally I got another call at the start of the summer from a human being. I told the whole story yet again. She told me to fax it in writing to a specific number. I told them what 407ETR could do with their fax!

My first mistake. I assumed that the worst that could happen was I'd get called to court. I would have LOVED to tell my story to a judge!

Then one of the statements came registered mail. I ignored it.

My second mistake.

Today I went down to renew my car plates. I was told that I have to pay $220 in 407ETR fees or no plates! It seems that now MCGuinty's government has allowed 407ETR to do this, in effect punishing us BEFORE it is established that 407ETR is correct about a dispute!

I promptly drove over to my MPP's office, not a Liberal BTW. A very helpful lady called the 407ETR. SHE got to speak to a real person! There is a dispute process and it has been started. Meanwhile, if I want my plates I have to pay the money and trust that someday they will return it.

I heard a year or two ago that the 407ETR has over 800,000 billing disputes! I couldn't begin to count all the folks I know who have had a problem with them. I never believed a provincial government would allow them to use the plate renewal ministry as their collection agent. With all these disputes I thought it would be extremely dumb, politically! I guess I was wrong.

Anyhow, just a word to the wise. I'm sure there are others out there in a similar situation. Even though 407ETR is a private company, like any government department it's your problem and your time and effort required to correct their mistake, even if they won't respond to you anyway.

This highway collects the highest tolls in North America. It is a licence to print money. Now it has the provincial government as their enforcement agent.

Here is a link:

http://www.407etr.com/Products/platedenial.htm

This explains the legal decision to grant them this power. The reasoning appears to be to give them the power to force payment from delinquent accounts. There is a dispute mechanism but even if 407ETR is in the wrong it puts the onus of proof solely on the subscriber.

I'm not confident that if someone else has a dispute they can get it resolved. I'm just warning of what to expect when you go to renew your plates.

Needless to say, this is one more reason why I could never vote Liberal again!

Blame McGuinty if you like .....

BUT ONLY MIKE HARRIS IS TO BLAME FOR THIS SHAM!!!

He built the licence plate renewal into the sale. The Liberals fought this crap and lost in court. Infact this is such a sweatheart deal that no one can touch the ETR.

Thanks HARR (ASS) the jerk.

SORRY IT TOOK 10 YEARS TO GET SCREWED!!!

CALL JOHN TORY IF YOU CAN FIND HIS SEAT. IT IS IN HIS CAR!!!

Ok, Sorry about this crap Wild Bill. There are lots of errant bills, false plates, and ETR incompetence. The Era that you first described, when you went to return the transponder was the worst. Unfortuneately, you are toast.

[madmax]

I was under the impression it had been around for years and it has but in 2005 a court ruling made it mandatory that they refuse should an outstanding debt be shown.

Prior to that they could have refused you plates.

Drive a truck and the plates come up on an OPP computer...?....you can be pulled over and ordered to pay the fines.

You are correct.

[Bryan]

This is a good object lesson on why people should flat out refuse to allow any tolls to be implemented on new infrastructure projects.

It still makes me shake my head that anyone ever allowed them, and thankful that we don't have any in Manitoba.

[madmax]

This is a good object lesson on why people should flat out refuse to allow any tolls to be implemented on new infrastructure projects.

It still makes me shake my head that anyone ever allowed them, and thankful that we don't have any in Manitoba.

These are Private Toll roads. Privatization of toll roads is good. Private highways are good. I know lots of people who like these toll roads. The Conservative Government made it possible for Ontario to have more Private Toll roads. There are more of these roads being built in Ontario.

Don't you believe in privatization? Get roads out of the public sector and into the hands of private enterprise?

The are making a great profit, and are building roads. People who use them should pay. They should lose their licence across and not be allowed to drive anywhere in the Province or North America if they don't pay up. Innocent people won't be affected by this. Only the guilty who are trying to scam a free ride.

If a driver has a 407 bill that is outstanding for more than 37 days, the 407 ETR will mail a “Notice of Failure to Pay” to the address they have on file for that driver. Unless the driver leases a transponder from the 407 ETR, all contact information about the driver is received from the Ministry of Transportation. At this point outstanding accounts will start accumulating interest (26.82% APR, compounded monthly). Additional administrative fees may also be charged on the account. If a driver receives a "Notice of Failure to Pay", he or she can either pay the outstanding toll or, within 30 days of receiving the "Notice of Failure to Pay", deliver the 407 (preferably by registered mail) a Notice of Dispute listing one or more of the permitted grounds as set in the Highway 407 Act, Section 17(1). The Notice of Dispute is available for download from the 407 ETR's website.

If you are interested in Toll Roads..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_407_(Ontario)

[Wild Bill]

These are Private Toll roads. Privatization of toll roads is good. Private highways are good. I know lots of people who like these toll roads. The Conservative Government made it possible for Ontario to have more Private Toll roads. There are more of these roads being built in Ontario.

Don't you believe in privatization? Get roads out of the public sector and into the hands of private enterprise?

The are making a great profit, and are building roads. People who use them should pay. They should lose their licence across and not be allowed to drive anywhere in the Province or North America if they don't pay up. Innocent people won't be affected by this. Only the guilty who are trying to scam a free ride.

If you are interested in Toll Roads..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_407_(Ontario)

Sorry, but you're quoting an "official" line that has no connection to the reality that HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Ontarioan drivers have experienced! Just do a google. I'm a "johnny-come -lately" to this sad situation. There are PAGES of websites about these problems!

There have been parliamentary investigations and all the talk radio blather one could stand. The situation remains unchanged.

In my case even though I had to pay while things were in dispute there is no guarantee that I won't get dinged again NEXT plate renewal! They simply won't acknowledge that my account was closed years ago. I haven't driven that highway in over 10 years and don't live in Toronto anyway.

The 407 privatization is a unique case. You're cheering the symbol of private roads and ignoring the reality of the 407. They have unbelievable numbers of accounting errors and disputes that go unresolved for years. Meanwhile, they collect the highest tolls of anywhere in the world, by a quantum level! American truck drivers have been flabbergasted when they found out how much they had to pay compared to those anywhere in America.

Privatization of roads is only an academic question. In practice the debate over the 407 is whether the problem was the result of incompetence or outright corruption. Or both!

[Smallc]

This is a good object lesson on why people should flat out refuse to allow any tolls to be implemented on new infrastructure projects.

It still makes me shake my head that anyone ever allowed them, and thankful that we don't have any in Manitoba.

I like what BC did though. They used the tolls to pay for the Coquihalla highway, and now that its paid for, the tolls are gone.

[Bryan]

These are Private Toll roads. Privatization of toll roads is good. Private highways are good.

It's not good, it's stupid. Public roads are just that, PUBLIC. There is no way they should ever be privatized. Charging people for passing through is extortion.

I like what BC did though. They used the tolls to pay for the Coquihalla highway, and now that its paid for, the tolls are gone.

I don't trust a government to end a toll when the bill is paid. Income tax was supposed to be temporary too.

[Kitchener]

Blaming McGuinty for the public giveaway/corrupt balls-up/secret unbreakable contract furball that is the 407ETR is utterly daft.

McGuinty didn't make the deal, and he couldn't rescind it when he did get into power. The Harrisites had seen to that.

[madmax]

It's not good, it's stupid. Public roads are just that, PUBLIC.

But these roads aren't public. They are private and the Private Sector is better at handling business of highway management and creation. It is a perfect marriage. The public sector should do the handling of restricting license plates. That is the role of government. Particularly for deadbeats who don't pay their ETR fees. The road is private and if you are too poor, you shouldn't drive on it. Private roads are PRIVATE. It is good, it's smart.

There is no way they should ever be privatized. Charging people for passing through is extortion.

I don't trust a government to end a toll when the bill is paid. Income tax was supposed to be temporary too.

Don't worry, the government has no intention of ending the toll. Infact the government has no say in the matter. The ETR is a money maker. The purchasing company has no intention of ending the toll. The road has already been paid for by the company. A few Billion for a Multi Billion $ highway. An excellent business decision, and Mike Harris made it happen.

The toll is not extortion. Wealthy people enjoy their low volume super highway. Complete with Provincial Police enforcing the highway traffic act for their safety. The Private Highway is a success story. You should be cheering.

[madmax]

Blaming McGuinty for the public giveaway/corrupt balls-up/secret unbreakable contract furball that is the 407ETR is utterly daft.

Well of course you have to blame McGuinty and those other socialist hordes who believe that Highways should be public. There are always lessons learned in making a deal. But the Sale of the 407 is a proud Conservative Legacy. It will be a benefit to private enterprise and the success of privatization for the rest of the century.

McGuinty didn't make the deal, and he couldn't rescind it when he did get into power. The Harrisites had seen to that.

That's correct. And a good thing too. The Ontario Government should have respected the contract instead of wasting taxpayers money. Government should not betray free enterprise and the private highways system. People like Wild Bill need to be on the hook for their actions. Why buy a transponder if your not a proud supporter of the Conservative Legacy.

Corruption? The Liberals love a corrupt deal as much as the Conservatives. THey love Private hospitals. Your health or your highway. Lets not split hairs. The Liberals make the same unbreakable contracts with P3s.

A private road does less harm. Many people benefit from the private road. Quicker access, less traffic, and a friendly bill that they can afford. Why shouldn't people be allowed to pay to drive past those people stuck on the 401, 403 or QEW?

I know many businessmen who love the 407 and believe it is a benefit to them and their business to jump the queu

.

And the less Tractor Trailors the better.