If the 407 is private...

[geoffrey]

Margrace... it's "Coquihalla", but here in BC we just call it the Coq 'cause nobody can spell it.

And no one HAS to drive it. There is the Canyon Hwy as an alternate route. The Coq been sold off to private enterprise by the way and now the BC govt is all ticked off because the private contractor has not been removing snow on a regular basis and the road has been closed many times this year.

I would rather pay my $10 toll to the govt than some private enterprise.

The Coq is nice at times, cuts a few hours off the ol' number one. I haven't driven it in quite some time now though. It's only $10... whoop de do, how much is a few hours of your time worth.

The snow clearance issue is problematic, but I'd say that's mostly due to the fault of the government for not being more clear in the contract... rules and penalties for not following them should have been clearly laid out.

It's a tough area to clear snow no matter what though, the Canyon Hwy is even worse.

In Alberta, it seems like all our highways are maintained (snow cleared) by private companies... they do a considerably better job than the City of Calgary. I live pretty much outside the city so heading up to the North for school or work I take 22x out to highway 22. Despite these being rural, rather lightly travelled highways during rush hour, they are generally way better kept than city roads.

During our snowfall Thursday evening, Deerfoot wasn't cleared until the morning. Sure it was a slow rush hour with Christmas and all, but when do you not clear or sand a major road. Then they wonder why Calgary has so many accidents?

So there ya go, it's not a private maintainence issue, it's a problem with a particular company. The company that maintains Alberta's highways does a fantastic job so I'm really happy with that privatisation.

[Drea]

I've driven both many times and always the Canyon route is safer. The hills are not as steep as the Coq -- in the summer your vehicle overheats and in the winter it's too snowy/slippery.

Also, the lanes aren't right -- the "banking" of the lanes is all wrong making driving difficult.

[madmax]

My only wish is I could get a clients drivers licence renewal refused since when they haven't paid their bills I sent them.Oh how nice that would be.

Ditto.

I also would like to lease a section of the road where I live and charge people to pass through

[Riverwind]

The snow clearance issue is problematic, but I'd say that's mostly due to the fault of the government for not being more clear in the contract... rules and penalties for not following them should have been clearly laid out.

It is a simple cost benefit calculation for private company: if the revenue generated by travellers is expected to be less than the cost of clearing the highway then shut the highway down. Yet another reason why the economics of major highways require state ownership.

In Alberta, it seems like all our highways are maintained (snow cleared) by private companies... they do a considerably better job than the City of Calgary.

The companies are hired to do the task of clearing roads - so they do it well. Give the companies the right to collect tolls and let them decide when it is worthwhile to clear the roads then you would have the same problem that exists in the Coquihalla.

So there ya go, it's not a private maintenance issue, it's a problem with a particular company. The company that maintains Alberta's highways does a fantastic job so I'm really happy with that privatisation.

Apples and oranges - the company with the maintenance contract is accountable for one thing: good maintenance. Furthermore, the contract is likely fairly short term so they have to make sure they don't loose it.

OTOH, The company that owns the Coquihalla has zero incentive to provide more than the bare minimum service since it has a pratical monopoly and no chance of losing it since it would cost the gov't too much to buy them out.

[madmax]

Get real. Exactly how long do you think access to the highway would last if no one payed? Lets imagine you could get all 407 users to agree to use but not pay for the highway. The 407 corp would soon implement a system whereby you would need to post funds in advance from an account which would be debited upon use. A similar system is used by some utilites if you have no credit record.

Don't have funds to post in advance? Too bad, so sad, go wait on the 401 like everyone else.

So what?

I don't really care, close the highway, it's a ripoff and a licence to print money.

As for waiting on the 401, you can wait on the 407 and I don't see any credit coming for your wait. It's not a time guarranteed system. Quite frankly the high cost of the 407 and its use of transportation space available for traffic control, actually bogs down the flow of traffic. More people that would normally use the 407 use the 401, yet this highway was needed to address increased traffic. Not to create a fast route for the rich.

Like I said, I really don't care about the robbers stealing some miles on the 407.

oh boo hoo poor 407.

[madmax]

Why didn't Mr. Harris set it up the same as the kokahala (sp) but then he wouldn't have accessed immediate money would he?

The 407 was built during the Rae Government. It's goal was to be a toll road that would pay for itself while government revenues were down, and the government really couldn't finance the necessary expansion of Ontarios highway system.

Harris Government completely undervalued the road and its potential and sold it. The Lease is a licence to print money, and the Ontario Government Got Peanuts for it.

What a fool.

[madmax]

No, I'm expecting even if it was government run, it would still be a toll road, and the cost to buid and operate the highway would be based upon toll fees collected.

that was the original intent when built by the NDP.

The first section was completed in 1987 as a temporary routing for Highway 403 in Mississauga and Oakville (after a change in plans, this segment would be permanently part of Highway 403). The next phase to begin construction was a short connector between Highway 427 and Highway 400, and the upgrading of Highway 7 through Richmond Hill to a six-lane grade-separated expressway, which although originally planned to become incorporated into the 407 routing, today runs parallel to the highway. In addition, cross-street overpasses and ramps for the interchange connections to Highway 427 and Highway 400, and modifications to accommodate the highway at the Highway 403/QEW interchange, were constructed by the Ministry of Transportation in the early 1990s. To construct the highway more quickly and to save much-needed provincial funds during an economic recession, the provincial government resorted to a public-private partnership to facilitate construction of the highway. Two firms bid on the project, with Canadian Highways International Corporation being selected as the operator of the highway. Financing for the highway would be paid by user tolls lasting 35 years, after which it would return to the provincial system as a typical, un-tolled 400-Series Highway. The highway opened in 1997, and highway cost roughly $1.6 billion. The published 1.6 billion dollar cost does not take into account more than 100 billion dollars spent since the early 1970s acquiring the land that it sits on. (Ontario Government Hansard - Wednesday 21 October 1998 - 1520, 1550. Estimates range from 104-107 billion dollars total taxpayer investment as of March 31 1998)

I suppose it is always an option that the government could buy it back from the 407 corp, but I doubt they would do so.

It's a 99 year lease, although I may be going on bad memory.

Sold to a private consortium in 1999, Highway 407 was formerly a provincial freeway designed as a bypass of Highway 401, the main truck route through Southern Ontario and one of the world's busiest highways with well over 400,000 average daily trips on a section between Highway 427 and Highway 404. Major freeway junctions are located at (from west to east) the Queen Elizabeth Way, Highway 403, Highway 401, Highway 410, Highway 427, Highway 400 and Highway 404. Other major street junctions include Bronte Road (Halton Regional Road 25), Hurontario Street, Highway 27, Yonge Street and Markham Road (Highway 48). Overall there are 40 different junctions on Highway 407 connecting the toll road with the main transportation network in the Greater Toronto Area.

As part of a controversial plan to finance revenue for tax cuts, the highway was sold to a conglomerate of private companies in 1999 for $3.1 billion. The deal included an unprecedented 99-year lease agreement, unlimited control of the highway and its tolls. However, the Government maintained the ability to build a light transit system along the 407 right of way. Also there is nothing in the deal preventing the Government from building competing highways or roads.

Today, the highway is valued at over $10 billion, and the Progressive Conservative party has been heavily criticized for the poor terms of sale including underestimating the value of the road. Many "905ers" in the rapidly growing Greater Toronto Area who had been expecting to be served by a much-needed non-tolled Highway 407 consider its sale and skyrocketing toll rates a sellout and this significantly eroded the Conservatives' formerly strong support base in that region. The CAA considered the 407 contract a fiasco and adopted a platform where they would not support the tolling of any new or existing highways. Even though the succeeding Liberal government have been unsuccessful in their attempts at legal action against the 407 ETR operators, the contract still reflected badly upon the opposition Conservatives who defended it. Current Conservative leader John Tory has distanced himself from his predecessors on this issue and has said that he would not have sold Highway 407 if he had been Premier.

Either Harris was a fool, or fiscal conservatives are idiots. Read that 1st paragraph. The price of selling the road didn't account for the money spent to aquire the land over 27 years.

The more I look into this the more p****D I become.

What a stupid government.

[Wilber]

I've driven both many times and always the Canyon route is safer. The hills are not as steep as the Coq -- in the summer your vehicle overheats and in the winter it's too snowy/slippery.

Also, the lanes aren't right -- the "banking" of the lanes is all wrong making driving difficult.

I disagree about the Canyon being safer. The Coq is all four lane divided highway with an uninterupted 110K speed limit. Most of the Canyon is two lane and it is much more winding. Most of the accidents on the Coq are single vehicle while many in the Canyon involve more than one vehicle, often head on. If there are fewer accidents in total it is because the Canyon handles far less traffic than it did before the Coq was built.

Weather is a bigger problem on the Coq because of its much higher elevation. The hills are steeper but should be no problem for any well maintained vehicle on a hot day.

Hauling my trailer over the Coq is a bit of a grind on the hills but it saves me at least an hour and a half and around 10 bucks in fuel after I pay the toll. Well worth it.

[Renegade]

I don't really care, close the highway, it's a ripoff and a licence to print money.

My, my, aren't we bitter? Not only do we not want to use the highway, we don't want anyone else to use it either.

As for waiting on the 401, you can wait on the 407 and I don't see any credit coming for your wait. It's not a time guarranteed system.

People who use the 407 are well aware that there is no time gurantees, yet they use it anyway. I guess they must have decided the chance is worth it.

Quite frankly the high cost of the 407 and its use of transportation space available for traffic control, actually bogs down the flow of traffic. More people that would normally use the 407 use the 401, yet this highway was needed to address increased traffic. Not to create a fast route for the rich.

Huh? Are you saying that if there was no 407 traffic would flow better?

[margrace]

Margrace... it's "Coquihalla", but here in BC we just call it the Coq 'cause nobody can spell it.

And no one HAS to drive it. There is the Canyon Hwy as an alternate route. The Coq been sold off to private enterprise by the way and now the BC govt is all ticked off because the private contractor has not been removing snow on a regular basis and the road has been closed many times this year.

I would rather pay my $10 toll to the govt than some private enterprise.

Hi Drea, thanks although I have ridden many times on that road I coundn't remember the spelling. Yes there is an alternative road to it just the same as there are several alternative road to the 407, The 401 and several other routes are still there so I am not sure what you mean.

[madmax]

My, my, aren't we bitter? Not only do we not want to use the highway, we don't want anyone else to use it either.

Sure, boycott it.

People who use the 407 are well aware that there is no time gurantees, yet they use it anyway. I guess they must have decided the chance is worth it.

Good selling point, I can't wait for the adds.

Huh? Are you saying that if there was no 407 traffic would flow better?

No I am not.

[Saturn]

No, I'm expecting even if it was government run, it would still be a toll road, and the cost to buid and operate the highway would be based upon toll fees collected.

I suppose it is always an option that the government could buy it back from the 407 corp, but I doubt they would do so.

The taxpayer already paid a big chunk of the cost of building the 407. The taxpayer paid for building every other highway in the province, so those roads are "toll" roads already without paying extra (the profits of private corporations).

[Saturn]

Either Harris was a fool, or fiscal conservatives are idiots. Read that 1st paragraph. The price of selling the road didn't account for the money spent to aquire the land over 27 years.

The more I look into this the more p****D I become.

What a stupid government.

Harris was not stupid. He sold off many profitable public assets to good friends for pennies. He is currently sitting on the boards of about 20 large private companies and he's done wonderfully well for himself and for his heirs.

[Renegade]

No, I'm expecting even if it was government run, it would still be a toll road, and the cost to buid and operate the highway would be based upon toll fees collected.

I suppose it is always an option that the government could buy it back from the 407 corp, but I doubt they would do so.

The taxpayer already paid a big chunk of the cost of building the 407. The taxpayer paid for building every other highway in the province, so those roads are "toll" roads already without paying extra (the profits of private corporations).

I don't know all the details of the financing of the 407. Yes, the taxpayers paid for the building of the 407. How much of that outlay did they recover when the 407 was sold?

As I've said, I don't have an issue with the government building an additional highway, but I think that it is appropriate to recover the costs of the outlay by charging tolls to users. Afterall, while all provincial taxpayers pay for the building of the highway, only a subset benefit from its use. It is just those who benefit are the ones who bear the cost.

Now, I understand that it may be impractical at the moment, to toll every road and highway. I think that it will change in future. At some point we may be requred to carry a transponder which will track our use of the roads. At that point it will be easy to charge based upon usage.

[Renegade]

Quite frankly the high cost of the 407 and its use of transportation space available for traffic control, actually bogs down the flow of traffic. More people that would normally use the 407 use the 401, yet this highway was needed to address increased traffic. Not to create a fast route for the rich.

So then what would the impact of your plan to boycott the 407? I don't understand what you mean by the 407 "bogs down the flow of traffic". You say that the 407 is needed, yet your plan is to get everyone to not use it. Makes sense doesn't it?

[madmax]

I don't know all the details of the financing of the 407. Yes, the taxpayers paid for the building of the 407. How much of that outlay did they recover when the 407 was sold?

That information is provide above in this thread from wikpedia.

[madmax]

So then what would the impact of your plan to boycott the 407? I don't understand what you mean by the 407 "bogs down the flow of traffic". You say that the 407 is needed, yet your plan is to get everyone to not use it. Makes sense doesn't it?

The information in the wikpedia quote supplied in this thread shows the needs of the 905 users.

[Renegade]

I don't know all the details of the financing of the 407. Yes, the taxpayers paid for the building of the 407. How much of that outlay did they recover when the 407 was sold?

That information is provide above in this thread from wikpedia.

Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry I missed it first time.

So it cost $1.6 Billion to build and they got $3.1B for it. The $3.1B includes the recovery cost and the 99 year lease. You cannot include the $100B cost for land acquision, as ownership of the land did not transfer to the 407 corp.

I do agree however that the lease was underpriced. The $1.5B over building cost is remarkably low and it should not have been sold at that price.

[Renegade]

So then what would the impact of your plan to boycott the 407? I don't understand what you mean by the 407 "bogs down the flow of traffic". You say that the 407 is needed, yet your plan is to get everyone to not use it. Makes sense doesn't it?

The information in the wikpedia quote supplied in this thread shows the needs of the 905 users.

I did not dispute that the 905ers need it. Given they need it, what should they do if they follwo your plan to boycott it?

[margrace]

I don't understand the idea of the cost of building the highway and the acqusiton of land being separate costs. The tax payer paid for it all no matter what kind of bookkeeping you do. Harris literally gave it away and now someone is saying what a rich man he is. How can we be so guilable.

[Renegade]

I don't understand the idea of the cost of building the highway and the acqusiton of land being separate costs. The tax payer paid for it all no matter what kind of bookkeeping you do. Harris literally gave it away and now someone is saying what a rich man he is. How can we be so guilable.

Why would you include land acquisition cost when the land is not sold to the vendor? The land still belongs to the government.

I can see an argument that says that the financing costs of the $100B over 99 years should be included in the lease price, but it doesn't make sense to me that the acquisiton cost should be included in a break-even analysis.

Let me give you an example. Let say a landlord acquires a property for $100K, and can sell it 10 years later for $200K. Lets say it cost him $10K/year to operate the house, including mortgage and financing, taxes, house depreciation and all other costs. Even if he charges $8K/year in rental, he is still ahead by $80K at the end of 10 years.

You should see that except for depreciation over the term, the acquition cost are not included. Since land does not really depreciate, I can't see how you would include acquisition costs.

[madmax]

Thanks for pointing that out. Sorry I missed it first time.

No Problem

You cannot include the $100B cost for land acquision, as ownership of the land did not transfer to the 407 corp.

The highways is on the land. The government aquired this land.

You don't have to include it.

Just ignore the $100billion of tax payers money spent and it makes sense.

I do agree however that the lease was underpriced. The $1.5B over building cost is remarkably low and it should not have been sold at that price.

Where have I heard that before? Ah yes, me

Harris Government completely undervalued the road and its potential and sold it. The Lease is a licence to print money, and the Ontario Government Got Peanuts for it.

Take Care.

[madmax]

I did not dispute that the 905ers need it.

No, the article says the 905 users require a highway to handle the increased needs of the area. What wikpedia states is that the 407 does not satified this need.

That is because it is the most expensive highway in North America and possibly the world.

Given they need it, what should they do if they follwo your plan to boycott it?

Actually the boycott idea was derived from your post, I just went along with the suggestion.

I have posted that I don't care whether people pay it or not. I still don't care.

But what would happen?

Hopefully bad ideas like this one

Now, I understand that it may be impractical at the moment, to toll every road and highway. I think that it will change in future. At some point we may be requred to carry a transponder which will track our use of the roads. At that point it will be easy to charge based upon usage.

will never come to fruition.

The 407 is already the most expensive highway and we don't need more of these.

[Renegade]

Hopefully bad ideas like this one

Now, I understand that it may be impractical at the moment, to toll every road and highway. I think that it will change in future. At some point we may be requred to carry a transponder which will track our use of the roads. At that point it will be easy to charge based upon usage.

will never come to fruition.

You have stated it is a bad idea, but you do not state why. Enlighten us on why it is a bad idea for users to pay for the roads they use.

[madmax]

will never come to fruition.

The 407 is already the most expensive highway and we don't need more of these.

You have stated it is a bad idea, but you do not state why. Enlighten us on why it is a bad idea for users to pay for the roads they use.

Your answer is provided in this thread.