New Bush 'plan'

[Figleaf]

''

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[M.Dancer]

The choices are:

status qua

Withdraw and risk regional war

or finally provide the military with enough troops to provide security.

There;s a difference between reading, and understanding.

[jdobbin]

The choices are:

status qua

Withdraw and risk regional war

or finally provide the military with enough troops to provide security.

Even the military has been expressing doubts about the surge.

Republicans and Democrats alike are reacting with understandable concern.

[Riverwind]

finally provide the military with enough troops to provide security.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.

All the king's horses and the king's men

Couldn't put Humpty together again.

Sometimes there is a lot of truth in nursery rhymes....

[Figleaf]

Georgie Porgie, Pudding and Pie,

Kissed the Girls and made them cry.

When his toys ran out one day.

Georgie Porgie had this to say ...

Give me men or I will cry.

Let me send them out to die.

[Liam]

The problem with the plan is that it is too little, too late. Bush should have committed 250,000 more soldiers on the ground (for a total force of approximately 400,000) at the war's start. Adding 20,000 or 30,000 now is way too small a force to push the genie back in the bottle, not to mention keep it in there.

[sharkman]

Georgie Porgie, Pudding and Pie,

Kissed the Girls and made them cry.

When his toys ran out one day.

Georgie Porgie had this to say ...

Give me men or I will cry.

Let me send them out to die.

Don't quit your day job...

Ah, yes, yet another thread whose title includes the words Bush, and stupid. You might notice that when one wears one's biases in such an obvious manner, it doesn't get too much response.

[PolyNewbie]

They never inteded to win. The idea was to break the country into three parts as in the "Clash Of Civilizations". Saddam was a nationalist and nationalists need to be destoyed to make way for a new fascist world government based on collectivism.

Remeber WMD's ? Remember how Americans thought Saddam was working with Bin Laden and they needed to invade Iraq ?

[newbie]

They never inteded to win. The idea was to break the country into three parts as in the "Clash Of Civilizations". Saddam was a nationalist and nationalists need to be destoyed to make way for a new fascist world government based on collectivism.

Remeber WMD's ? Remember how Americans thought Saddam was working with Bin Laden and they needed to invade Iraq ?

The have to GTFO now!

[sunsettommy]

This situation duplicates the Vietnam War so closely it is shocking. The creeping quicksand of incremental troops is the highlight. I recommend everyone take a look at the third chapter of Barbara Tuchmans, "The March of Folly".

America never deposed the Vietnamese government and or win the war.This after 12 years.

America deposed the Hussein government and won the war.This after a few weeks.

Quite a difference to me.

The problem are those few fanatics who blow up Iraqi civilians and coalition troops and a few Iraqi police.They have not accepted the "will of the voters" government and its constitution.

It is folly to make tortured comments over two very different wars.

[GostHacked]

sunsettommy

America never deposed the Vietnamese government and or win the war.This after 12 years.

America deposed the Hussein government and won the war.This after a few weeks.

Last time I checked, there is still a war going on. Just because the Misscommander in Cheif says 'Mission Accomplished' does not mean so. Looks like there is still work to be done. The War on Terror is just getting started.

The problem are those few fanatics who blow up Iraqi civilians and coalition troops and a few Iraqi police.They have not accepted the "will of the voters" government and its constitution.

The problem is that the checks and balances that Hussein had in place were pretty brutal and the consequences resulted in death for the most part. You never heard of Sunnis and Shiites going at it this hard when Hussein was in power. Now it is a daily occurance. And oh, a few Iraqi police? They are targeted as much if not more than civilians. But people are correct when they say that Iraq is free. Total freedom means total anarchy. Do whatever the hell you damn well want to. So if chaos and anarchy means that they are free, then Iraq seems to fit that description.

Liam.

The problem with the plan is that it is too little, too late. Bush should have committed 250,000 more soldiers on the ground (for a total force of approximately 400,000) at the war's start. Adding 20,000 or 30,000 now is way too small a force to push the genie back in the bottle, not to mention keep it in there.

The US should have had 350,000 to 500,000 troops in order to bring security to Iraq from the start. You need at least double the opposing military for an invasion and then to keep security up. After 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED' troops were being pulled home, there was a reduction in the troop levels from 2004 to 2005 I believe. Now it is just patch work. Ah crap City A is a problem again .. and as soon as they get troops from City B to come and help, city B is under chaos again. Constantly doing the same thing over and over. No progress is being made in that area at all in my view. One area comes under control but another area is in a shitstorm again. This is progress?? You are right, 30,000 troops is just a small fraction of what they really need. Can this be proof that the US is running thin on the military? Where are they going to get that many more troops?

The Iraq invasion was a mistake from the start. Every day the crap that goes on in that country solidifies my belief that the US never intended to win, or vacate the country. It was never about freedom or terrorism.

If you want an idea of why the US is there, take a look at the locations of where US military installations are being permanently set up. (hint, like Afghanistan, they are near the oil/gas pipelines and refineries.)

[geoffrey]

Bailing on Iraq would be very irresponsible at this point.

The US needs to focus more on training Iraqi forces to keep order. A big fundamental aspect of my political outlook is that people will only be happy governed and controlled by their own. Americans can't interfere in Iraqi politics or police them... it can't work forever. Historically I think this is true.

The Americans need to step up in preparing Iraqi defence forces to resist a possible coup upon American withdrawl. If the Iraqi defence forces can keep the government in power through the initial challenge, legitimacy will have been achieved, and the country will settle down considerably after that.

[sunsettommy]

Gosthacked:

Last time I checked, there is still a war going on. Just because the Misscommander in Cheif says 'Mission Accomplished' does not mean so. Looks like there is still work to be done. The War on Terror is just getting started.

LOL,

Still perpetuating that myth that the president was saying the war is over.

He was actually referring to the Aircraft Carrier's deployment.The USS Lincoln's mission was ending and was near the home port when the President came on board.

Look it up.

The President said early on that the war on terror is a long one.He said that MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS were over.

Not the war itself.

Check again.

The problem is that the checks and balances that Hussein had in place were pretty brutal and the consequences resulted in death for the most part. You never heard of Sunnis and Shiites going at it this hard when Hussein was in power. Now it is a daily occurance. And oh, a few Iraqi police? They are targeted as much if not more than civilians. But people are correct when they say that Iraq is free. Total freedom means total anarchy. Do whatever the hell you damn well want to. So if chaos and anarchy means that they are free, then Iraq seems to fit that description.

Actually Hussein and his killers were of the Sunni MINORITY.

This means he had to have a police state to maintain power in face of the determined MAJORITY of Shiites who did not really accept his dictatorship.

There were no actual check and balances.It was a brural clampdown of the Majority Shiites.

Now that his police state is removed.The long suffering Shiites are revenging the Sunni's crimes with murder.If unchecked long enough.The Sunni's will thin out and leave or be killed.

Then too we have muslim fanatics who want to FORCE a Theocracy on the people who clearly showed they do not want that by electing a more democratic government with a constitution that is more in line with representation for the people.

What ever gave you the idea there is anarchy?

Chaos and anarchy claims is more a Media invention than reality.

[sunsettommy]

Bailing on Iraq would be very irresponsible at this point.

The US needs to focus more on training Iraqi forces to keep order. A big fundamental aspect of my political outlook is that people will only be happy governed and controlled by their own. Americans can't interfere in Iraqi politics or police them... it can't work forever. Historically I think this is true.

The Americans need to step up in preparing Iraqi defence forces to resist a possible coup upon American withdrawl. If the Iraqi defence forces can keep the government in power through the initial challenge, legitimacy will have been achieved, and the country will settle down considerably after that.

A major mistake is the American led troops in clearing out terrorist camps in not SECURING those cleared out areas.

The terrorists just come back into the same areas after the coalition troops leave.Thereby allowing a place to base in the city.

If there were no more areas of the city for the terrorists to camp in.Then they would have to go into the desert and camp there.That would make it easier for the coalition troops to wipe them out with no civilians in the way.

To me it is more a strategy of containment that is flawed.

[jdobbin]

Bailing on Iraq would be very irresponsible at this point.

The US needs to focus more on training Iraqi forces to keep order. A big fundamental aspect of my political outlook is that people will only be happy governed and controlled by their own. Americans can't interfere in Iraqi politics or police them... it can't work forever. Historically I think this is true.

The Americans need to step up in preparing Iraqi defence forces to resist a possible coup upon American withdrawl. If the Iraqi defence forces can keep the government in power through the initial challenge, legitimacy will have been achieved, and the country will settle down considerably after that.

I think that the U.S. is doing all the things you mention.

It still might not matter in the end if the country is determined to go to civil war. At the moment, it is hard to see light at the end of the tunnel.

[Figleaf]

.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Figleaf

[GostHacked]

sunsettommy

America deposed the Hussein government and won the war.This after a few weeks.

Still perpetuating that myth that the president was saying the war is over.

Well then the media (big surprise there) spun that whole thing then right ?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/...n.accomplished/

Actually from what I see and read, he was talking about major combat operations in Iraq and NOT specificly about that aircraft carrier off San Diego.

The speech and events surrounding it were widely publicized and served as the symbolic end to the war in Iraq.

So who created and perpetuated that 'myth' ?

"The banner signified the successful completion of the ship's deployment," he said, noting the Abraham Lincoln was deployed 290 days, longer than any other nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in history.

Seems like you are right. But from that one article alone I get two different meanings. Seemed like the Navy and the White House were passing the buck on who actually made the sign.

[Nazia]

To Jdobbin:

Hello!

If I have misunderstand your comment then please do correct me, and I apologize..otherwise satisfy my question...

You quote, "It still might not matter in the end if the country is determined to go to civil war. At the moment, it is hard to see light at the end of the tunnel."

What are you implying by stating that in the end, the country is determined to go to civil war. It is currently in civil war right now! It is between Shia's and Sunni's...do you immensly fail to see that?

As for your comment regarding its hard to see light at the end of tunnel..in my opinion...no its not! It's quite clear!

I mean look at it from this point of view...currently Bush has been harrassing Muslim countries for his selfish reasons. Here's a visual representation of what I am saying : Bush VS Muslims

Now...since there is a civil war in Iraq right now (sunni's against shiah's) Bush is using this to his advantage. Bush see's this civil war as a weak link in Islam. Therefore...hes just sitting there pretending like hes doing something and waiting for the Muslims to brutaly turn agaisnt eachother then at a point turn to Bush and suck on America's candy.

[jdobbin]

To Jdobbin:

Hello!

If I have misunderstand your comment then please do correct me, and I apologize..otherwise satisfy my question...

I already regard it as a civil war. I think many military leaders regard it as such too and not all that convinced that 40,000 more troops will changes that.

[sharkman]

Figgy, yet a third thread you started with no other point than to hate on Bush. I think you need balance in your life.

[Figleaf]

Figgy, yet a third thread you started with no other point than to hate on Bush. I think you need balance in your life.

I'm just sooooo sorry that you can't stand to hear the truth about the disastrous Bush regime. Obviously part of what bothers you about it is that you have no substantive response.

[sharkman]

Dude, step away from the hatred! Life is good! Free your mind and watch the hatred float away on silent streams.

[Figleaf]

Dude, step away from the hatred! Life is good! Free your mind and watch the hatred float away on silent streams.

Dude, open your eyes. The man you're defending doesn't deserve it.

[Black Dog]

Bailing on Iraq would be very irresponsible at this point.

The US needs to focus more on training Iraqi forces to keep order. A big fundamental aspect of my political outlook is that people will only be happy governed and controlled by their own. Americans can't interfere in Iraqi politics or police them... it can't work forever. Historically I think this is true.

The Americans need to step up in preparing Iraqi defence forces to resist a possible coup upon American withdrawl. If the Iraqi defence forces can keep the government in power through the initial challenge, legitimacy will have been achieved, and the country will settle down considerably after that.

That's great, but once you consider the very real possibiliy that the Iraqi forces are actually the ones behind much of the killing and violence now, you have to wonder if training and arming them is really the answer.

Here's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

British troops raided a police station in the southern Iraqi city of Basra on Monday after receiving intelligence that a renegade Iraqi police unit might execute its prisoners, the British military said.

Leaders of the station's serious crimes unit were suspected of involvement with local death squads, and seven were apprehended three days ago in British military raids, said Lt. Jenny Saleh of the British Royal Navy in Basra.

"We had intelligence to indicate that the serious crimes unit would execute its prisoners in the coming days, so we decided to intervene," Saleh said.

The state seurity apparati is not a tool of the state, but are part of the factional struggle.

sunsettommy:

Still perpetuating that myth that the president was saying the war is over.

He was actually referring to the Aircraft Carrier's deployment.The USS Lincoln's mission was ending and was near the home port when the President came on board.

Look it up.

The President said early on that the war on terror is a long one.He said that MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS were over.

Not the war itself.

Check again.

Spin.

Now that his police state is removed.The long suffering Shiites are revenging the Sunni's crimes with murder.If unchecked long enough.The Sunni's will thin out and leave or be killed.

Then too we have muslim fanatics who want to FORCE a Theocracy on the people who clearly showed they do not want that by electing a more democratic government with a constitution that is more in line with representation for the people.

Dude: the long-suffering Shiites (you know: the one's currently doing their best Saddam Hussein impersonations)? They're the one's pushing for a theocracy.

What ever gave you the idea there is anarchy?

12,000+ civilian deaths in 2006. Daily double digit death tolls. Widespread torture and murder.

Chaos and anarchy claims is more a Media invention than reality.

And you know this because....?

A major mistake is the American led troops in clearing out terrorist camps in not SECURING those cleared out areas.

The terrorists just come back into the same areas after the coalition troops leave.Thereby allowing a place to base in the city.

If there were no more areas of the city for the terrorists to camp in.Then they would have to go into the desert and camp there.That would make it easier for the coalition troops to wipe them out with no civilians in the way.

To me it is more a strategy of containment that is flawed.

I see: so in order to beat the terrorists, reduce civilian casualties and get the Iraqi people on their side, the U.S. should go around razing Iraqi neighbourhoods to the ground. Destroying teh village to save it. And you say there are no Vietnam comparisons.

[JerrySeinfeld]

12,000+ civilian deaths in 2006. Daily double digit death tolls. Widespread torture and murder.

Sounds like a sunday afternoon under Saddam or the Taliban.

Keep on fighting boys. Only 3,000 dead US soldiers is tiny. That's like one MONTH in Vietnam.

Since the Bush admin detained combatants in Gitmo, took out Iraq and Afghan and developed a presence in the Mid East we've been taking the war to them.

Now we're talking about a subversion in Syria. That would be great. Slowly but surely the plan is taking shape.

If only the skittish ADD media trained zombie left would have some visino and patience to see it through...