Canada/US/Quebec

[Leafless]

Yes, I can see the cruise missiles being deployed against ROC by Quebec, LOL.

Actually, I was thinking more in the terms of violence of First Nations, attacks on English if they are resistant to Quebec making a break from Canada and assorted, escalating conflicts.

You think separation will be a peaceful and uneventful thing? Has it ever been that way anywhere else in the world?

There is also the possibility of attacks on francophones living outside of Quebec.

Why would Quebec attack initially, a country that has given them rights and resources from ROC that makes them the most POWERFUL province in the country.

Even a dog is not stupid enough to bite the hand of their master that feeds it.

I am sick and tired of this ungrateful, self righteous, province and don't really know why other provinces in Canada are to timid or just to plain stupid to demand the same rights especially language and immigration rights.

[White Doors]

Oh, well, thanks for your PHD disertation.

I have written quite a bit on this elsewhere. There are several scenarios that could lead to fighting.

Look at yourself now, you already are prepared to kill me based on saying that a civil war is possible.

haha

really? enjoy rhetoric much?

haha

[jdobbin]

haha

really? enjoy rhetoric much?

haha

Name me a country that separated that didn't have violence. Facts much?

[jdobbin]

Even a dog is not stupid enough to bite the hand of their master that feeds it.

Are you so certain?

[guyser]

As a Canadian I hope they do seperate. Would make the ROC a much better country.

Dont think to deep do you?

[White Doors]

As a Canadian I hope they do seperate. Would make the ROC a much better country.

Dont think to deep do you?

Don't use to/too in the right context do you?

[White Doors]

haha

really? enjoy rhetoric much?

haha

Name me a country that separated that didn't have violence. Facts much?

Off the top of my head...

Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Scotland (for all intents and purposes) Lithuania, Bangledesh

I'm sure that there are more!

[Charles Anthony]

Trim Your Posts and Quotes -- Don't just hit "Reply"

Half of the posts in this thread have the same amount of whitespace as the added replies.

Go back and remove the excess quotes.

[Riverwind]

Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Scotland (for all intents and purposes) Lithuania, Bangledesh

The collapse of the USSR was a special case - in that situation you had a federation completely collapsed which forced the components to find their own way whether they liked it or note.

Scotland is _not_ independent from the UK. Today it has considerably less autonomy within the UK than Quebec does within Canada.

The seperation of Bangledesh from Pakistan was a extremely violant affair. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War

Most Serbs, Croats and Bosnians have never believed such violence could happen before it did.

The partition of Ireland has been an extremely bloody affair and is perhaps the best example because virtually all of the social dynamics that existed in Northern Ireland exist in Quebec today.

It is naive to say that violance could never happen.

[guyser]

Don't use to/too in the right context do you?

Correct sir , I made a spelling mistake. Thank you for that . Now onto more important things, such as how this country would be better off if they separate.Do tell us.

And a word of advice, ignore minor spelling mistakes (but not entire posts of poor grammar and spelling) and keep to the heart of the question. That is of course if you can answer the question. But from your reply, I have already seen that you cannot. Thanks for coming out....next !

[jdobbin]

Off the top of my head...

Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Scotland (for all intents and purposes) Lithuania, Bangledesh

I'm sure that there are more!

Scotland, as mentioned, is not its own country. Bangladesh was very violent when it broke from India.

The Russian federation collapsed during the attempted coup in 1991 against Gorbachev. Ukraine declared independence partly because it was left to stand on its own in a collapsing empire. Since then, Russia has used the threat of violence to control Ukraine. They've starved Ukraine of energy via the pipeline and they are reported to have tried to assassinate the Ukraine President.

Ukraine fought for independence for many years and many died because of it.

Latvia and Estonia were once separate countries. They are now separate countries again. They have had to fight for their independence several times.

Kazakhstan independence movements were put down several times by violence of the Soviet Union.

I don't think you have shown one example of independence or separation that wasn't paved in blood.

[jdobbin]

It is naive to say that violance could never happen.

Conservatives often try to make this a simple business decision when they talk about separation and countries. It never is.

[Wilber]

It is naive to say that violance could never happen.

Conservatives often try to make this a simple business decision when they talk about separation and countries. It never is.

Whats being conservative got to do with it. I consider myself conservative and believe no one knows what might happen, including liberals. Anything is possible.

[jdobbin]

Whats being conservative got to do with it. I consider myself conservative and believe no one knows what might happen, including liberals. Anything is possible.

Fair enough. Let's just say that there are a few people who think that will be a simple business decision.

[Proud Canuck]

Whats being conservative got to do with it. I consider myself conservative and believe no one knows what might happen, including liberals. Anything is possible.

Fair enough. Let's just say that there are a few people who think that will be a simple business decision.

Yes, anything is possible, including a civil war and the possibly violent break up of Quebec. Quebec separation will be anything but a "business decision". If Quebec separates, then the Cree Indians and Inuit can separate and join Canada or start their own countries. Do you think Quebec will let them and their resource rich lands go without a fight? Also areas of Quebec such as the Gatineau and the Gaspe have large populations that work in Ontario and the States. They just might decide to leave Quebec in favour of Ontario, Vermont or new York State.

[jbg]

[sure why not? The people can move that don't want to join the 'new republic'. The populations of NB and NS need a boost anyways.

The people consider themselves Canadians and should be entitled to the protection that being a Canadian gives. As far as moving goes, why should they be forced to sell, say, a valuable house in suburban Montreal at a firesale price because of their province's secession?

It was only political correctness that created any concept of recognizing any "right" to secede. The US handled that in quite a different manner, and secession from the US is therefore no longer a serious threat, and we are not fighting our elections over our country's geographical integrity.

[Liam]

Yes, I can see the cruise missiles being deployed against ROC by Quebec, LOL.

Actually, I was thinking more in the terms of violence of First Nations, attacks on English if they are resistant to Quebec making a break from Canada and assorted, escalating conflicts.

You think separation will be a peaceful and uneventful thing? Has it ever been that way anywhere else in the world?

The split between Slovakia and the Czech Republic back in the 90's was extremely peaceful... almost cordial by history's standards.

[White Doors]

As you can see there are many examples of it happening peacefully.

At least giving them a realistic alternative may call their bluff.

I am sick of the ROC being held hostage.

[jdobbin]

The split between Slovakia and the Czech Republic back in the 90's was extremely peaceful... almost cordial by history's standards.

Both nations today were operated as republics unto themselves inside a federation with quite a lot of autonomy. Or as much as can be expected under Warsaw Pact overseers. One shouldn't forget the violence of 1968, where Czechoslovakia tried for more independence.

With the collapse of Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia was left to its own end and the historical autonomy of being two Republics within a federation became an issue. It is interesting to note that the people weren't the driving force behind the separation. It was the politicians.

It was peaceful in terms of separating but its circumstances and specialness are what make it unique. No one can point to that as coming from a long line of peaceful divisions.

[jdobbin]

As you can see there are many examples of it happening peacefully.

At least giving them a realistic alternative may call their bluff.

I am sick of the ROC being held hostage.

Actually, you gave no examples. Liam gave one special example of Czechoslovakia but these two present countries operated as autonomous republics in a federation prior to splitting. That certainly can't be said of provinces within Canada.

[Liam]

Could the recent announcement re Quebec be the first step to a similar "nations within a federation" arrangement (vis a vis Czechoslovakia)?

[jdobbin]

Could the recent announcement re Quebec be the first step to a similar "nations within a federation" arrangement (vis a vis Czechoslovakia)?

They might try. But the Czechoslovakia split had the benefit of not having huge amounts of Czech and Slovaks living in enclaves in each other's territories. Nor did they have separate nations such as First Nations within their own land demands and wish for some independence.

Quebec might try to make a comparison to Czechoslovakia but they've never been a separate republic nor is the territory without claims inside it.

[Leafless]

Whats being conservative got to do with it. I consider myself conservative and believe no one knows what might happen, including liberals. Anything is possible.

Fair enough. Let's just say that there are a few people who think that will be a simple business decision.

Yes, there is nothing in our constitution that will accommodate this and it will never receive the REQUIRED support to do this.

Quebec is not a even a economically viable province. Mostly everything in it including its land comes from the federal government and the tax payers of Canada.

Where does Quebec get the notion that they have built this province on their own?

You would assume under these conditions, Quebec would be flying the maple leaf all over the province and singing 'God Save the Queen'.

[White Doors]

Actually, you gave no examples. Liam gave one special example of Czechoslovakia but these two present countries operated as autonomous republics in a federation prior to splitting. That certainly can't be said of provinces within Canada.

you asked for ONE example. I bothed the bangledesh example but all of my other one's were valid as is the Slovak/Chech replublic one is.

Admitting when you are wrong is a sign of maturity.

I would also take issue with PQ not essentially being a semi-autonomous province within Canada. It has a different legal system for one. (Code vs/ common)

So I think it CAN be said of provinces within Canada.

[Riverwind]

I would also take issue with PQ not essentially being a semi-autonomous province within Canada. It has a different legal system for one. (Code vs/ common)

I would agree that Quebec could separate from Canada relatively painlessly if:

1) An overwhelming majority of the population of Quebec and Canada (65%+) supported the idea

2) No groups inside or outside Quebec had any interest in seeking the partition of Quebec.

Both of these conditions were true in Czechoslovakia. These conditions are not true in Canada/Quebec and will likely never be true. This makes violence a very likely outcome.