Palestine: Peace or Apartheid

[ScottSA]

The key wrong done to them was the imposition of the state of Israel in their territory over their unequivocal opposition and in denial of their rights to self-determination. This harm precipitated the traumas that followed.

They were part of Jordan. Jordan denied their right of self-determination. They became not part of Jordan only after Jordan had an oops moment and attacked Israel. At no time in hiostory has there been such a thing as a "Palestinian homeland". This "right of self-determination" you speak of applies by its own criteria to Jews too, even more so than the Palestinians, since Jews are loosely speaking an identifiably recognized 'race' AND a religion, whereas Palestinians are just Arabs. Yet this meme of "self-determination of the Palestinians foiled by the creation of the state of Israel" presupposes that Jews ought not to have had a homeland.

Don't you realize that accepting this argument is a condemnation of the region to perpetual warfare?

[Figleaf]

They were part of Jordan.

Bumf. Silly bumf at that.

At no time in hiostory has there been such a thing as a "Palestinian homeland".

Irrelevant.

This "right of self-determination" you speak of applies by its own criteria to Jews too,

Certainly. And what?

even more so than the Palestinians,

Absolutely not. But how is this relevant?

Palestinians are just Arabs

Bumf.

...this meme of "self-determination of the Palestinians foiled by the creation of the state of Israel" presupposes that Jews ought not to have had a homeland.

Bumf.

Don't you realize that accepting this argument is a condemnation of the region to perpetual warfare?

Bumf.

[ScottSA]

You should become the lead rhetoritician for the Liberal Party. Their rhetoric is about as empty as that too.

[Figleaf]

You should become the lead rhetoritician for the Liberal Party. Their rhetoric is about as empty as that too.

Sorry if my prose wasn't flowery enough. But most of your points have been thoroughly thrashed already on a number of historical threads, e.g.:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=7164

[Rue]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Thanks for that nice to see someone standing up to veiled anti semitism.

You know what I find sad? when Israel does something genuinely right, i.e., support Muslims engaged in rebuilding Palestinbe using peaceful means, its twisted around as supporting terrorists because the people who twist it around just can not stand the idea that Israel and Palestinians could do anything together without violence-it doesn't play into the Israel evil demon stereotype and for that matter it would kill these same revisionists to once admit when Palestinians do not engage in terrorism they can do incredible things for their people and no amount of terror or hating Israel can change that fact.

[Rue]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Just so I understand here, Rue. Are you saying that Hamas did not emerge from the Islamic Association?

No of course it did. What I am saying is that it did NOT emerge with Israeli funding or support. It emerged with Iranian and Syrian funding. Look at why it emerged. Arafat sensing the Islamic Association had replaced him suddenly tried to revive his prominence and role as the leader of Palestine by suddenly changing his tune and saying he was no longer a terrorist. This obliged Israel to at least speak with him.

Also keep in mind Arafat has always been a puppet of France's Deuzieme Bureau. He was a puppet for French intelligence interests in that region.

Please understand Arafat was always and never stopped being a drug pusher. His posing as a freedom fighter and head of a terrorist organization, etc., was purely for convenience. Arafat came to be by running brown heroin from Iran and Afghanistan through Syria and Lebanon to Marseilles, France.

In return for being allowed to sell heroin and hash hish through major drug cartels to France and then on the US, he did what the Deuxieme Bureau wanted. He basically kept his hands off Tunisia, Morrocco, and Lebanon. Chirac openly supported the PLO and Al Fatah and saw its support of the PLO as the best way to be the primary power of influence from the West in the Middle East.

The Islamic Association spun out of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood a very conservative fundamentalist Sunni organization dedicated to the overthrow of both the Syrian and Egyptian regimes and replacing them with Sunni Muslim theocracies,. The Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic Association considered Arafat a scum for two reasons-one he was a drug pusher which they were dead against, and two it was a well known fact he was a homo-sexual.

When Arafat played the French intelligence p.r. card and went back to Israel realizing he was a spent force and now needing to portray himself as a non terrorist the Islamic Association felt they were about to be pushed out by the PLO not Israel. The Islamic Association had up until then resisted any armed struggle but when Arafat made his overtures to Israel, at the same time, Al Fatah was given a green-light by the French to turn on the Islamic Association and as Arafat told the world he was a peace loving man and wanted to talk to Israel forcing Israel to talk to him, Al Fatah moved in on the Islamic Association and started seizing their property, schools, money and shooting their followers.

The Islamic Association felt it had no choice but to arm to fight Al Fatah. Up until that point, any terrorism against Israel was not from Islamic Association it was Al Fatah, Islamic Jihand and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

Hamas came about as members of the Islamic Association decided they had to fight Al Fatah. Iran and Syria then funded the military wing because the French funded the PLO and Syria and Iran wanted to counter the French. Hamas came about primarly to combat Al Fatah. It turned on Israel for a simple and basic reason. How could it win the hearts of Palestinians in a stuggle with the PLO if it was seen as weak. Al Fatah, was saying to Palestinians it would not stop until it eradicated Israel while its alleged non military wing at the same time told the Western Press Arafat was a peace loving man who only wanted peace. Two messages one for the Western press and one for Palestinians.

Hamas felt it had to out-do Al Fatah and show it was tougher and to this day Al Fatah and Hamas are engaged in a civil war and both despise each otehr but are locked in this cycle of violence and believe if they both don't show their people they are dedicated to the eradication of Israel they won't be popularly supported.

So what I am saying loud and clear is Israel at no time created, supported, or funded Hamas. That is pure and utter b.s. What Israel did and what you should give it credit for is it supported a non violent initiative which only failed because terrorists were able to take control once again.

[Rue]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Israel did not and never at any time funded Hamas.

Heh heh... I love it.

NO AT NO TIME DID ISRAEL FUND HAMAS. Come on Higgly. You want to giggle, show us your documentation that Israel funded Hamas. Once again Higgly you giggle because you haven't a clue what it is you think you are an expert on. You are so blinded by your hatred for anything Jewish and Israel it can not possibly be accepted by you that Israel funded a benevolevent Islamic Association that did not engage in violence and because it did not engage in violence was able to get 19,000 Palestinians funded for employment by Israel.

Keep giggling.

[Rue]

The key wrong done to them was the imposition of the state of Israel in their territory over their unequivocal opposition and in denial of their rights to self-determination. This harm precipitated the traumas that followed.

They were part of Jordan. Jordan denied their right of self-determination. They became not part of Jordan only after Jordan had an oops moment and attacked Israel. At no time in hiostory has there been such a thing as a "Palestinian homeland". This "right of self-determination" you speak of applies by its own criteria to Jews too, even more so than the Palestinians, since Jews are loosely speaking an identifiably recognized 'race' AND a religion, whereas Palestinians are just Arabs. Yet this meme of "self-determination of the Palestinians foiled by the creation of the state of Israel" presupposes that Jews ought not to have had a homeland.

Don't you realize that accepting this argument is a condemnation of the region to perpetual warfare?

In case you haven't noticed we have the same Three Stooges, Larry, Curly and Moe who write in, giggle, act like experts on the creation of Israel but could care less about history. This is about Israel bad bad bad. Jews finance Israel and control the world and the US congress are bad bad bad. Besides you are a US imperialist zionist supporting evil person. USA gave you away. You bad bad bad. You probably like

the New York Yankees too. Shame.

[Rue]

Here for Giggly Higgly the following words;

The following comes from www,palestinefacts.com a Hamas internet site;

What is Hamas?

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 in Egypt and for many years was one of the principal Islamic revivalist movements in the Middle East. They were primarily a social and religious group, although in Egypt four of their members were the assassins who killed President Anwar Sadat for his peace treaty with Israel. Then in 1987, after years of concentrating on social and educational activity in the Palestinian Arab areas, the Muslim Brotherhood was confronted with fundamental challenges in the wake of the intifada in Gaza and the West Bank. As the uprising became the main focus of the Palestinian Arab population, the Muslim Brotherhood's leaders found themselves detached from the events which were being led by Islamic Jihad and the PLO from their headquarters in exile in Tunisia. Their response was a new organization, founded December 14, 1987 at the beginning of the intifada: Hamas (Harakat Muqawama Islamiyya — the Islamic Resistance Movement). The Hamas Covenant was drawn up in 1988, explaining the organization's Islamic ideological sources, its ideas on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, its approach as a Muslim-Palestinian movement, and its attitude toward the PLO.

The following comes from the Jaffee Center Fpro Strategic Studies, an Israeli center.

BOTH SIDES state the same thing in their articles as to the origins of Hamas. Nothing absolutely nothing about the origins of Hamas has anything to do with Israeli funding.

Giggle Giggle Giggle.

While the Muslim Association was not involved in the events that marked the beginning of the uprising, on occasions when its leaders did take a stand, the broad support they enjoyed was apparent. Hence, the Islamic Resistance Movement was a power to be reckoned with in the intra-Palestinian political arena virtually since its appearance.

The Political Background

In the wake of the Intifada, in December 1987, the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza Strip embarked upon a direct and violent confrontation with Israel. The operational turn was marked by an organizational change - the establishment of Hamas.

The eruption of the Intifada confronted the Muslim Brotherhood in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with unprecedented challenges. After years of concentrating on social and educational activity, the movement's leaders found themselves detached from the events which were electrifying the Occupied Territories. The challenge was made all the more acute by the major role of the Islamic Jihad, Hamas' adversary in the Islamic camp, in fomenting the demonstrations. Members of the Brotherhood defected to the rival organization, and the standing of Brotherhood leadership in the Territories declined accordingly. Criticism, voiced by the Islamic Jihad and some members of the Palestinian nationalist camp, was primarily directed toward the Brotherhood's stand on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which consisted, basically, of avoiding active involvement in the national struggle.

In response to such criticism, and in order to explain their belated entry into the arena of the armed struggle, the Hamas leadership pointed to the Brotherhood's educational activities in Palestinian society, claiming it was equal in importance to the violent course of action. Thus, they contended, during the Israeli occupation after the 1967 war, Brotherhood education helped the Palestinians cope with what they termed as the corrupting influence of Israeli society. Therefore, Hamas spokesmen argued, before launching militant anti-Israeli activity, it was imperative to protect and entrench Muslim values in Palestinian society by building mosques, mobilizing and unifying the population, and deepening the principles of the Islamic spirit. Once these primary goals were attained, Palestinian society, strong in spirit and faith, would be able to confront the occupiers. Hence, the years preceding the eruption of the Intifada were termed by Hamas spokesmen as the "stage of the institutions," in which the people were mobilized to the Islamic camp which became politically strong, and the consciousness emerged which engendered the Intifada.

Organizational Roots and Base of Support

Hamas operates within a broad infrastructure created by the Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza Strip. Until late 1987, the Brotherhood carried out its activities through the Muslim Association, the Mujema al Islami. The Association was founded in the mid-1970s by a group of notables, headed by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, a handicapped man of considerable charisma among the masses, with a degree from Ain-Shams University in Cairo. The Association, the platform of which contained no nationalist clauses, obtained a permit from the Israeli Civil Administration in 1979 to conduct its activities. The permit was apparently consistent with the Israeli policy of strengthening Islamic bodies as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalist groups.

The Association's activities focused on efforts to persuade the Palestinian masses to lead lives based on the tenets of Islam, emphasizing the religion's social and political goals. The Association became involved in social, charitable, and volunteer activity throughout the Gaza Strip. With the help of contributions, mostly from the Gulf states, community institutions such as clinics, clubs, and day care centers were established. The Association worked vigorously to deepen its spiritual and religious hold on Gazans, and on the eve of the Intifada, an estimated 40 percent of all mosques in the Gaza Strip were under its control.

Hamas marks December 14 as its founding date; it was on that date in 1987 that its first Intifada leaflet appeared.

Hamas operates through various mechanisms which religious activists created in earlier years. The Military Wing - Izz a-Din al-Qassam squads, began to operate in the early 1980s within the framework of secret Muslim Association cells. Its activities were frozen following the first arrest of Sheikh Yassin, in 1984, but later renewed within the Hamas framework. The military wing operates against Israeli civilian and military targets.

The Security Wing was established in 1986, primarily to deal with Palestinians suspected of engaging in activities inimical to the principles of Islam. It has targeted Palestinians suspected of collaboration with Israel. Many alleged collaborators were abducted and interrogated. Sometimes, the accusations constituted grounds for execution.

Another unit that began to operate prior to the eruption of the Intifada, with its powers expanded following the founding of Hamas, is the Information and Political Wing. This unit has been responsible for issuing Hamas publications, including bulletins, sundry information and research material.

The role of the Events Unit, set up after the founding of Hamas, and active mainly during the Intifada, was "to participate in the uprising and to escalate it." Its activists, organized in popular committees, were responsible for running the mass civilian aspects of the Intifada. This involved initiating and enforcing strikes, inciting street riots and demonstrations, blocking roads, writing nationalist and religious graffiti on walls, assisting families that suffered losses in the uprising, and burying the people killed during clashes with the Israeli security forces.

[Rue]

Here is the origins of Hamas as seen by Mahas historian Dr. Firoz Osman, Executive Secretary of the Media Review Network, an advocacy group based in Pretoria, South Africa.

I dliv=berately use his version since Giggly Higgly will say I am a Zionist and heaven forbid we should believe anything I said. Now tell me how when reading Hamas's version of its own origins does anyone come up with the concept that Israel created them and funded them?

The decision of the Islamic Association to allow its splinter cells of terrorists to become predominant was clearly their making not Israel's. Giggle giggle giggle.

"Between the years 1981 to 1987 this local social movement was transformed into a powerful political body rivaling the ineffective and secularist PLO. The progression to start an armed struggle against Israeli occupation materialized practically through the formation of Al- Mujahidoun Al-Filistiniyoun (The Palestinian Fighters). This was the military wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, on account of which Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was arrested in 1984.

The formation of Haraqat Muqauw’amah Islamiyya (Hamas) or the Islamic Resistance Movement was declared on December 14, 1987, a week after the outbreak of the first intifada. Hamas was able to mobilize people around its Islamic ideological line towards resisting the Israeli occupation. It believed that occupation breeds resistance, and that international law allowed any nation under occupation to adopt all possible means to defend itself and its land.

The principles and objectives of Hamas appealed to the oppressed masses who felt betrayed by the United Nations, Britain, United States of America, the servile Arab leaders more interested in protecting their thrones, and the secular PLO. The upright and committed Hamas leadership, involved with its people in the trenches against a brutal foe, was the only option that could restore the dignity, rights and freedom of the Palestinians"

Now I am finished with this idiot topic and constantly having to deal with giggling hyenas.

[Figleaf]

Just so I understand here, Rue ... are you saying that Hamas did NOT emerge from the Islamic Association?

Also, you said:

www,palestinefacts.com a Hamas internet site;

However, that address redirects to www.palestinefacts.org, which appears on cursory examination to express views that Hamas would never consider uttering.

[buffycat]

Now I am finished with this idiot topic and constantly having to deal with giggling hyenas.

Thank goodness for that.

Though, I gotta say, that the site you refer to still has Israel occupying Gaza. It has an interesting map which calls the illegal settlements 'built up areas'.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/images/map_gaza_strip_1999.jpg

What about these maps? From B'TSelem, a wonderful group of folk btw:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

I sincerely doubt that the link you supplied is a "Hamas" website.

BTW - Hamas grew out of many things, initially her seed was watered well by Israel - this cannot be denied. There are many Israelis and Jews throughout the world who do not agree with many of the actions of her particular Administrations - read the Jewish newspapers and weeklys etc.! Just as there are many Canadians, Americans and all other 'Westerners' who also don't agree with the actions of their own governing bodies.

You are spreading an 'Israel is without fault spin' and sadly she - just as the US, UK and Canada have all shown that we do have fault. Faults as in supporting and encouraging division and conflict in other regions of the world, in which we have no business to be in. Let alone - tell these other folks how and what to think, how to run their lives and THIER country. It really isn't any of our business.

BTW - don't hand me the line of 'Oh these countries don't allow any rights for women. It doesn't wash - heck - it isn't even 100 years since women had rights here either! These things will come - and probably already would have if it were not for the interference of the 'west'. I would also add that the West is certainly not in any postition to offer the 'moral high ground'.

As for Israel she should ask herself why she can't seem to get along with her nieghbours. The victim card is wearng thin (probably from overuse). Which is bad allround.

[Figleaf]

Just so I understand here, Rue ... are you saying that Hamas did NOT emerge from the Islamic Association?

Also, you said:

www,palestinefacts.com a Hamas internet site;

However, that address redirects to www.palestinefacts.org, which appears on cursory examination to express views that Hamas would never consider uttering.

Further to this matter, Rue, a little research indicates that both palestinefacts.com and palestinefacts.org are registered to an outfit called Zionist Organization of America (www.zoa.org), who don't sound at all like they are Hamas. So, Rue, I'm curious how you would come to suggest that www.palestinefacts.com is a Hamas website.

Care to enlighten us? (Briefly please.)

[sharkman]

Here is the origins of Hamas as seen by Mahas historian Dr. Firoz Osman, Executive Secretary of the Media Review Network, an advocacy group based in Pretoria, South Africa.

I dliv=berately use his version since Giggly Higgly will say I am a Zionist and heaven forbid we should believe anything I said. Now tell me how when reading Hamas's version of its own origins does anyone come up with the concept that Israel created them and funded them?

The decision of the Islamic Association to allow its splinter cells of terrorists to become predominant was clearly their making not Israel's. Giggle giggle giggle.

"Between the years 1981 to 1987 this local social movement was transformed into a powerful political body rivaling the ineffective and secularist PLO. The progression to start an armed struggle against Israeli occupation materialized practically through the formation of Al- Mujahidoun Al-Filistiniyoun (The Palestinian Fighters). This was the military wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, on account of which Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was arrested in 1984.

The formation of Haraqat Muqauw’amah Islamiyya (Hamas) or the Islamic Resistance Movement was declared on December 14, 1987, a week after the outbreak of the first intifada. Hamas was able to mobilize people around its Islamic ideological line towards resisting the Israeli occupation. It believed that occupation breeds resistance, and that international law allowed any nation under occupation to adopt all possible means to defend itself and its land.

The principles and objectives of Hamas appealed to the oppressed masses who felt betrayed by the United Nations, Britain, United States of America, the servile Arab leaders more interested in protecting their thrones, and the secular PLO. The upright and committed Hamas leadership, involved with its people in the trenches against a brutal foe, was the only option that could restore the dignity, rights and freedom of the Palestinians"

Now I am finished with this idiot topic and constantly having to deal with giggling hyenas.

Wow, Rue, you have really done your homework. I wouldn't worry about what certain Jew haters might call you. You must learn around here that presenting clear facts will never sway the peanut gallery who only trust what they are spoon fed from the left wing media.

[Figleaf]

Wow, Rue, you have really done your homework. I wouldn't worry about what certain Jew haters might call you. You must learn around here that presenting clear facts will never sway the peanut gallery who only trust what they are spoon fed from the left wing media.

A little after-dinner troll?

[sharkman]

Wow, Rue, you have really done your homework. I wouldn't worry about what certain Jew haters might call you. You must learn around here that presenting clear facts will never sway the peanut gallery who only trust what they are spoon fed from the left wing media.

A little after-dinner troll?

No, I haven't had supper yet.

[jbg]

In case you haven't noticed we have the same Three Stooges, Larry, Curly and Moe who write in, giggle, act like experts on the creation of Israel but could care less about history. This is about Israel bad bad bad. Jews finance Israel and control the world and the US congress are bad bad bad. Besides you are a US imperialist zionist supporting evil person. USA gave you away. You bad bad bad. You probably like the New York Yankees too. Shame.

These are people who believe in the right of "self-determination" (at the West's expense, of course) for all peoples, with one exception - the Jews.

[Figleaf]

... as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

... Are you saying that Hamas did not emerge from the Islamic Association?

No of course it did. What I am saying is that it did NOT emerge with Israeli funding or support.

Bizarre.

Is there any actual purpose to your drivel and self-contradictions, or is it just something you do to entertain yourself?

[Figleaf]

These are people who believe in the right of "self-determination" (at the West's expense, of course) for all peoples, with one exception - the Jews.

Who are 'these people'? Name some names.

[ScottSA]

These are people who believe in the right of "self-determination" (at the West's expense, of course) for all peoples, with one exception - the Jews.

Who are 'these people'? Name some names.

Figleaf aka Curly is one name.

[Figleaf]

These are people who believe in the right of "self-determination" (at the West's expense, of course) for all peoples, with one exception - the Jews.

Who are 'these people'? Name some names.

Figleaf aka Curly is one name.

Based on what?

[Rue]

.

Is there any actual purpose to your drivel and self-contradictions, or is it just something you do to entertain yourself?

The purpose Figleaf was to expose you as lacking any credibility and showing wyoumade false misrepresentations and inferences that the Islamic Association and Hamas are the same and that Israel funded or created Hamas.

The point was Figleaf to show clearly with objective evidence that the military wing of Hamas and the Islamic Association were never one and the same adn Israel only supported benevolent activities.

The point Figleaf was to show you smeared Israel with a misrepresentation trying to suggest they are hippocrates and are so devoid of morality they even will support a terrorist organization dedicated to their destruction just because that is what Israelis do-manipulate because they are evil and dishonest.

The point is Figleaf you are never satisfied unless you try and promulgate the image of Israel as insincere and manipulative.

The point is you Figleaf are so insincere you are willing to twist the truth because you can't possibly handle the fact that Israel could and did support people who hated it knowing they hated them precisely because that group, the Islamic Association denounced violence and did good things with the money. The point is Figleaf Israel is willing to support people and yes people who hate it, if those people refrain from violence and help their people because Israel is so desperate for peace its willing to take a chance on anyone willing to refrain from violence.

The point is Figleaf my responses were intended to expose you and Higgly for being transparent with your false assumptions and inferences and righteous giggling.

Spit it out Figleaf. Show us what I provided was drivel. Show us Figleaf. Show us your facts to suggesting Israel financed and created Hamas. I provided you articles Figleaf by Hamas explaining the origins preciselly because it is your m.o. to smeasr anyone youd isagree with as a Zionist only now Figleaf you not I are contradicting Hamas.

Spit it out Figleaf show us one thing I said that is contradictory.

Tell us all. Show us your facts. Provide us the information that Israel created supported Hamas's military wing and not the Islamic Association. Provide us the evidence of have the intellectual integrity to crawl off and giggle elsewhere.

You got caught again Figleaf making false inferences and of course someone like Higgly will jump on your band wagon-ah we caught Israel lying we caught Israel shape shifting we caught Israel being manuplative-the only thing you caught Figleaf was another dose of your transparent anti-semitism and its anti-semitic Figleaf because you cling to a stereotype of Israelis as being manipulative, sinister and dishonest which flows from the image of the Jew as a behind the scenes wheeling and dealing manipulator. That is what this is really about and you know what some of us see through it and will stand up and expose it for what it is-hatred.

Here is the point Figleaf and no amount of your intellectual cowardice can change that fact-Israel and the Islamic Alliance did good things and were able to achieve peace and good things for both their people when there was no terrorism.

That was the point Figleaf and something you are too blind with hatred to ever accept.Now back away. You do not amuse me.

[M.Dancer]

Next up: Rue proves the earth is round and water flows downhill

[DogOnPorch]

:D

-----------------------------------------

Your door is a jar...your window, a carrot.

[Figleaf]

The purpose Figleaf was to expose you as lacking any credibility...

Well that backfired on you! Your record on this thread so far includes pretending a Zionist Organization of America website is run by Hamas, and being caught in a blatant contradiction about how Hamas came to be.

and showing wyoumade false misrepresentations and inferences that the Islamic Association and Hamas are the same and that Israel funded or created Hamas.

You Lie. I made no such representations.

The point Figleaf was to show you smeared Israel with a misrepresentation ...

You Lie. I didn't make any representation on this subject, I simply asked what you were trying to say.

The point is you Figleaf are so insincere you are willing to twist the truth ...

The record on this thread is very clear that it is you who twists the truth.

... you can't possibly handle the fact that Israel could and did support people who hated...

But actually, I find that completely possible.

Why do you feel the need to falsely impute non-existent positions or emotions to me?

Don't you understand that doing so is a type of dishonestly?

Spit it out Figleaf. Show us what I provided was drivel.

The problem with your assertions has already been noted. You may review the thread if you are still curious.

Show us your facts to suggesting Israel financed and created Hamas.

I don't know, and have not asserted, that Israel financed Hamas. Your intense emotionalism on this topic evidently leave you unable to grasp the comments of your interlocutors.

I provided you articles Figleaf by Hamas explaining the origins ...

Actually, the website you said was Hamas' belonged to a completely different organization. This is a problem you have not yet answered.

... it is your m.o. to smeasr anyone youd isagree with as a Zionist...

You Lie.

In fact, I don't even regard it as a 'smear' for someone to be a Zionist. There are lots of perfectly acceptable ways and means to go about being Zionist or supporting Zionism.

Spit it out Figleaf show us one thing I said that is contradictory.

Already did. Q.V. above.

You got caught again Figleaf making false inferences ...

Quote one for me then.

the only thing you caught Figleaf was another dose of your transparent anti-semitism

Lie. Quote any comment in my entire posting history that contains anti-semitism. If you can't then it is proven that you have lied, in a dirty shitty way, AGAIN.

... and its anti-semitic Figleaf because you cling to a stereotype of Israelis as being manipulative, sinister and dishonest which flows from the image of the Jew as a behind the scenes wheeling and dealing manipulator.

Yet another dirty lie.

Here is the point Figleaf and no amount of your intellectual cowardice can change that fact-Israel and the Islamic Alliance did good things and were able to achieve peace and good things for both their people when there was no terrorism.

The intellectual cowardice is all on you, making up and imputing positions that other posters don't hold and have never said is dishonest and the sign of a weak argument.

Now back away. You do not amuse me.

Too bad. Your misrepresentations and prevarictions, your walls of dilatory text, and your lies about other posters don't amuse me.