Toronto judge has banished a Christmas tree

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

Yes McGuinty has stepped up on this and deplored this. I admire McGuinty.

You admire McGuinty for wanting Christian symbols in government buildings?

He's merely engaging in Wal-Mart politics and knows that far more voters will be impressed than offended by his pro-Christian stance. Muslim voters won't flock to the Conservatives because McGuinty favours symbolic Christian trees in government buildings.

scribblet · December 15, 2006

Maybe they should just ban political correctness and double standards, its backfiring anyway, most groups are against the decision as it could affect their celebrations eventually.

Nothing wrong with lighting up our lives at various times of the year, it would be a pretty austere world without it.

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

Nothing wrong with lighting up our lives at various times of the year, it would be a pretty austere world without it.

Nope, nothing wrong with lighting up...

But symbolic Christian trees, in my opinion, belong in homes and religious institutions. Private businesses of course will do what benefits the bottom line. That's their right. They're commercial enterprises.

But we're not an Islamic theocracy so it would be nice if government and religion were kept separate.

M.Dancer · December 15, 2006

A couple of things......

First, the despite efforts by secularists and neo pagans, the Christmas (*christ's mass) tree is 100% christian. The oak tree was a pagan symbol, the Christian evergreen supplanted the Oak.

The evergreen represents everlasting life. The evergreen is green even in the death of winter. The berries of the holly represent the blood of christ. The lights on a tree (formerly candles) are the light of God......

But first and foremost, it wasn't the Jews of Europe (for the christmas tree is a european tradition) who put up the tree, the tree was soley a Christian fetish.

Secondly, Muslims and Jews rally to the Tree

“This is stupidity and takes political correctness to new heights,” said Farzana Hassan, president of the Muslim Canadian Congress. “We should ban political correctness, not the Christmas tree.”
Premier Dalton McGuinty rallied behind the tannenbaum. “We’re not asking any one of the wonderful communities that make up our province to somehow abandon their traditions,” McGuinty said.

“This, in one way or another, comes up every year and I think it’s just part of a multicultural society’s growing pains,” said Canadian Jewish Congress executive vice-president Manuel Prutschi.

http://www.metronews.ca/story.aspx?id=21364

Michael Hardner · December 15, 2006

Christian evergreen supplanted the Oak.

Morris,

Heretoforth, you will be credited with bringing the wars of religion to the trees, by baptising the trees...

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

A couple of things......
First, the despite efforts by secularists and neo pagans, the Christmas (*christ's mass) tree is 100% christian. The oak tree was a pagan symbol, the Christian evergreen supplanted the Oak.

The evergreen represents everlasting life. The evergreen is green even in the death of winter. The berries of the holly represent the blood of christ. The lights on a tree (formerly candles) are the light of God......

But first and foremost, it wasn't the Jews of Europe (for the christmas tree is a european tradition) who put up the tree, the tree was soley a Christian fetish.

Secondly, Muslims and Jews rally to the Tree

First, well of course Christmas trees are Christian symbolically. As far as I know, no one on this thread has linked them to Muslims or Jews. And if Christians choose to celebrate the birth of their founder by killing evergreens, so be it. But I see no need for these religious symbols to be in government buildings. How would religionists feel if Satanists and Wiccans demanded the right to foist their religious symbols on government buildings?

Second, well of course Muslims and Jews rallied round the tree. They know what's in their best interests...unlike that Toronto judge. If you were a Christian or Jew in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, would you protest if there were Mohamedmas trees in government buildings. You bet your life you wouldn't. You'd rally around the tree and tell your Muslim brothers that you favour whatever it is that they favour

Wilber · December 15, 2006

I find this whole subject ironic for a country that espouses institutional multiculturalism. I guess it has it's limits.

Private businesses of course will do what benefits the bottom line. That's their right. They're commercial enterprises.

Much like politicians.

Michael Hardner · December 15, 2006

First, well of course Christmas trees are Christian symbolically. As far as I know, no one on this thread has linked them to Muslims or Jews. And if Christians choose to celebrate the birth of their founder by killing evergreens, so be it. But I see no need for these religious symbols to be in government buildings. How would religionists feel if Satanists and Wiccans demanded the right to foist their religious symbols on government buildings?
Second, well of course Muslims and Jews rallied round the tree. They know what's in their best interests...unlike that Toronto judge. If you were a Christian or Jew in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, would you protest if there were Mohamedmas trees in government buildings. You bet your life you wouldn't. You'd rally around the tree and tell your Muslim brothers that you favour whatever it is that they favour

Norman, your meaning is garbled.

You say 'of course' Jews rallied round the tree, yet the judge in the case seems to be Jewish ? Are you saying that they're rallying around this tree idea out of fear rather than good sense ? I don't see where the 'of course' part is.

Separation of church and state doesn't mean we are obliged to wipe all traces of culture from every public institution. That is a ridiculous idea: Culture is a living and thriving thing - trying to homogenize it would be expensive and futile - an exercise to excite political zealots only.

mikedavid00 · December 15, 2006

Maybe they should just ban political correctness and double standards, its backfiring anyway, most groups are against the decision as it could affect their celebrations eventually.
Nothing wrong with lighting up our lives at various times of the year, it would be a pretty austere world without it.

They actually have a stody that showed that 93% of athiests and non-christians have no problem with the Merry Christmas or the damn tree. It was what Wal-Mart based their Merry Christmas campaign off.

Christmas is a relgious haliday. And you will see immigrants everywhere doing their family functions all up and own the street on christmas day. The mosques are also packed.

Everyone who lives in the west loves this time of year. Why? Cuase it's the most wonderful time of the year.

mikedavid00 · December 15, 2006

Norman, your meaning is garbled.
You say 'of course' Jews rallied round the tree, yet the judge in the case seems to be Jewish ? Are you saying that they're rallying around this tree idea out of fear rather than good sense ? I don't see where the 'of course' part is.

Separation of church and state doesn't mean we are obliged to wipe all traces of culture from every public institution. That is a ridiculous idea: Culture is a living and thriving thing - trying to homogenize it would be expensive and futile - an exercise to excite political zealots only.

Oh but it's human rights. Just like SSM. It's all human rights.

the people who determine the culture are the poeple, not the gov't, not a judge (as i've said before), and not the views of a select minority.

If you are in favor for what you said regarding this tree, you relate the same thing to SSM.

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

First, well of course Christmas trees are Christian symbolically. As far as I know, no one on this thread has linked them to Muslims or Jews. And if Christians choose to celebrate the birth of their founder by killing evergreens, so be it. But I see no need for these religious symbols to be in government buildings. How would religionists feel if Satanists and Wiccans demanded the right to foist their religious symbols on government buildings?
Second, well of course Muslims and Jews rallied round the tree. They know what's in their best interests...unlike that Toronto judge. If you were a Christian or Jew in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, would you protest if there were Mohamedmas trees in government buildings. You bet your life you wouldn't. You'd rally around the tree and tell your Muslim brothers that you favour whatever it is that they favour

You say 'of course' Jews rallied round the tree, yet the judge in the case seems to be Jewish ? Are you saying that they're rallying around this tree idea out of fear rather than good sense ? I don't see where the 'of course' part is.

I did say "...unlike that Toronto judge."

I don't think Jews and Muslims are rallying around the trees because of fear but I do think that they're motivated by what's in their best interests. For example, if Christian symbols can be displayed, so can their symbols.

And if you want the dominant religious culture to support you in times of need, you'd better support the wishes of the dominant group.

If I had religious beliefs of any sort and they weren't Christian, I'd want the Christians to display their trees so that I could display my symbols if I were so motivated.

Rue · December 15, 2006

A Christmas tree isn't even a Christian symbol. It's a pagan one.

Yes. Its not even a Christian symbol!!! Well if it makes any difference-I am Jewish and I can not imagine a Christmas display or tree being offensive. The only thing offensive about Christians is when they try put mayonaisse on bagels.

Not only is a tree symbolic of a holiday for everyone (come on we all get Christmas off) it is just meant to cheer people up, especially in that Jarvis court house which if you have ever been in it, is the most depressing place to walk into particularly at Christmas time when there are so many custody disputes.

Its just ridiculous. I mean how does anyone expect anyone to be tolerant if we are this intolerant!!!! For cying out loud Christians wanting to be happy and celebrate is infectious. That is precisely the point. Why can't we share in their joy at this time of year? I was brought up to respect peoples' beliefs and especially when they are feeling good about something. This is nutso.

As my father used to say, shut up and be tolerant!

Rue · December 15, 2006

First, well of course Christmas trees are Christian symbolically. As far as I know, no one on this thread has linked them to Muslims or Jews. And if Christians choose to celebrate the birth of their founder by killing evergreens, so be it. But I see no need for these religious symbols to be in government buildings. How would religionists feel if Satanists and Wiccans demanded the right to foist their religious symbols on government buildings?
Second, well of course Muslims and Jews rallied round the tree. They know what's in their best interests...unlike that Toronto judge. If you were a Christian or Jew in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, would you protest if there were Mohamedmas trees in government buildings. You bet your life you wouldn't. You'd rally around the tree and tell your Muslim brothers that you favour whatever it is that they favour

You say 'of course' Jews rallied round the tree, yet the judge in the case seems to be Jewish ? Are you saying that they're rallying around this tree idea out of fear rather than good sense ? I don't see where the 'of course' part is.

I did say "...unlike that Toronto judge."

I don't think Jews and Muslims are rallying around the trees because of fear but I do think that they're motivated by what's in their best interests. For example, if Christian symbols can be displayed, so can their symbols.

And if you want the dominant religious culture to support you in times of need, you'd better support the wishes of the dominant group.

If I had religious beliefs of any sort and they weren't Christian, I'd want the Christians to display their trees so that I could display my symbols if I were so motivated.

Trust me, I am Jewish and like many non Christians, the religion of the Judge is not germaine to the issue. she does not speak for minorities, especially Jews on this issue.

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

A Christmas tree isn't even a Christian symbol. It's a pagan one.

I am Jewish and I can not imagine a Christmas display or tree being offensive. The only thing offensive about Christians is when they try put mayonaisse on bagels.

I don't think Christian trees in government buildings are offensive, merely a failure to separate church and state. At least mayo on bagels doesn't mix church and state. And it's not as offensive as mayo on matzoh. Pheh!

Ricki Bobbi · December 15, 2006

I don't think Christian trees in government buildings are offensive, merely a failure to separate church and state. At least mayo on bagels doesn't mix church and state. And it's not as offensive as mayo on matzoh. Pheh!

That conveniently ignores the fact that Christmas is much more diffusely celebrated than just practing Christians.

It's a very convenient way for the angry Left to push their agenda.

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

I don't think Christian trees in government buildings are offensive, merely a failure to separate church and state. At least mayo on bagels doesn't mix church and state. And it's not as offensive as mayo on matzoh. Pheh!

That conveniently ignores the fact that Christmas is much more diffusely celebrated than just practing Christians.

Still a failure to separate church from state...

Ricki Bobbi · December 15, 2006

Still a failure to separate church from state...

Still not providing an actual answer. Avoiding the question and pushing your agenda without attempting to debate or deal with the issue...

Separation of church and state is an American concept isn't it? Given your outspoken views on GW Bush and the US Govemment that's a little convenient...

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

Still a failure to separate church from state...

Separation of church and state is an American concept isn't it?

You think Canadians support mixing religion with government? :lol:

Black Dog · December 15, 2006

It's a very convenient way for the angry Left to push their agenda.

How do we get from one fucking judge to the "angry Left?" (Note scary capital "L") If it was a nativity scene or something else with overt religious implications: yeah, I could see eh argument for ditching them. But it's a tree. Fuck, why not ban Santa because of the associations with the Christian martyr St. Nicholas?

Separation of church and state is an American concept isn't it?

No: it's a democratic one.

seabee · December 15, 2006

I wonder if there is really separation of state in Canada, in the constitutional sense.

1. The hereditary head of state of Canada, the monarch of England, is also de facto head of a christian religion.

2. the 1982 Charter of Rights clearly states that Canada recognizes the "supremacy of God".

Could somebody ask Stéphane Dion for me?

Ricki Bobbi · December 15, 2006

No: it's a democratic one.

Do explain...

It is a democratic principle to be anti-religion?

Black Dog · December 15, 2006

Do explain...
It is a democratic principle to be anti-religion?

No: it's a democratic principle to seperate religion from the workings of the state. See, if the state bases policy on a certain religion, it can't really be said to be representing all its citizens (since not all citizens are likely to share the given religious outlook), so it can't really be said to be democratic.

Ricki Bobbi · December 15, 2006

No: it's a democratic principle to seperate religion from the workings of the state. See, if the state bases policy on a certain religion, it can't really be said to be representing all its citizens (since not all citizens are likely to share the given religious outlook), so it can't really be said to be democratic.

The doctrine of separation of church and state is an American one.

How is recognizing the fact that most Canadians celebrate Christmas basing policy on a certain religion?

The Christmas celebrations of most Canadians aren't based in the Christian religion.

How is anybody hurt by a Christmas tree in a courthouse?

Leafless · December 15, 2006

First, well of course Christmas trees are Christian symbolically. As far as I know, no one on this thread has linked them to Muslims or Jews. And if Christians choose to celebrate the birth of their founder by killing evergreens, so be it. But I see no need for these religious symbols to be in government buildings. How would religionists feel if Satanists and Wiccans demanded the right to foist their religious symbols on government buildings?
Second, well of course Muslims and Jews rallied round the tree. They know what's in their best interests...unlike that Toronto judge. If you were a Christian or Jew in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, would you protest if there were Mohamedmas trees in government buildings. You bet your life you wouldn't. You'd rally around the tree and tell your Muslim brothers that you favour whatever it is that they favour

You say 'of course' Jews rallied round the tree, yet the judge in the case seems to be Jewish ? Are you saying that they're rallying around this tree idea out of fear rather than good sense ? I don't see where the 'of course' part is.

I did say "...unlike that Toronto judge."

I don't think Jews and Muslims are rallying around the trees because of fear but I do think that they're motivated by what's in their best interests. For example, if Christian symbols can be displayed, so can their symbols.

And if you want the dominant religious culture to support you in times of need, you'd better support the wishes of the dominant group.

If I had religious beliefs of any sort and they weren't Christian, I'd want the Christians to display their trees so that I could display my symbols if I were so motivated.

The real reason Muslims did not object to the Christmas tree is because:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

"The Ontario legislature celebrated the Hindu holiday of Diwali a few weeks ago, the Islamic holiday Eid shortly afterward, and will mark Hannukah next week with the lighting of a menorah, Mr. McGuinty noted."

Let's check with cities and towns, schools and other institutions throughout Ontario to really see how tolerant Muslims are to Canada's major traditional Christmas celebrations.

BTW-I thought with official multiculturalism, political parties are suppose to steer clear of church and state.

normanchateau · December 15, 2006

I wonder if there is really separation of state in Canada, in the constitutional sense.
1. The hereditary head of state of Canada, the monarch of England, is also de facto head of a christian religion.

2. the 1982 Charter of Rights clearly states that Canada recognizes the "supremacy of God".

Could somebody ask Stéphane Dion for me?

Good points. Incidentally, not only is the Head of State position limited to Christians, it's limited to Anglicans. No other Christians can be Head of State even though Canada has far more Catholics than Anglicans. Time for constitutional change.