Beauty standards

[Figleaf]

I my opinion, women are more demanding about their own and their fellow women's looks than men are.

[Black Dog]

I my opinion, women are more demanding about their own and their fellow women's looks than men are.

Wow. Insightful. Okay: why?

[M.Dancer]

You forgot the number one rule of laying blame. Look for the money.

The beauty industry sets the standards with the billions of dollars it spends every year dribving their message home. Compared to that, the impressionable mind of a 14 year old hasn't a chance.

[Figleaf]

I my opinion, women are more demanding about their own and their fellow women's looks than men are.

Wow. Insightful. Okay: why?

Why are women like that? Possibly because being within the 'female culture' their perceptions are more trained to perceive these nuances. Possibly because there is a genetically implanted competitiveness between women seeking mates. Of course I'm merely speculating on these reasons.

...The beauty industry sets the standards with the billions of dollars it spends every year ...

Can you offer any tangible proof of that suspicion?

[M.Dancer]

...The beauty industry sets the standards with the billions of dollars it spends every year ...

Can you offer any tangible proof of that suspicion?

Are you asking for proof of what is spent on cosmetic advertising each year?

Give me a break......

[M.Dancer]

The industry sectors with the most important ad presence in 2000 were the

cosmetics/hygienic products industry and the food sector with investments of

US$ 350 million and US$ 300 million respectively. The television, radio, and

newspaper industries spent US$780 million combined. Political parties and civil

associations spent US$ 700 million in advertising on the 1999 presidential

campaign. During legislative elections in October 2001 politcial ad campaigns

were modest. The presidential election campaign in late 2002 and the first part

of 2003 is expected to boost political advertising.

$350 Million spent in ARGENTINA ALONE

[M.Dancer]

Since ancient times, women have fantasized about the proverbial fountain of youth. A recent report states the international cosmetics industry is worth about $150 billion dollars annually.

http://www.hellogorgeousguide.com/

TOILETRIES & COSMETICS 198,093,125 175,685,379 22,407,746 12.8 1,803.94 1,734.99 68.95 4.0

US MAGAZINE SPENDING ONLY

[Liam]

So far, I am the only one who voted Men. You have to question why it is women have historically searched for that fountain of youth. It isn't to appeal to one another or simply to fuel their vanity -- it's to remain attractive to the fickleness of male tastes and attractions. Remove men from the equation and women become far less concerned with outward appearance. Not too many of the original feminists were out there buying tons of lipstick and mascara.

Being gay, I see this all the time in the gay world, too. Gay men are far more concerned with looks, beauty, appearance, physique, etc., than their gay female or straight male counterparts. The reason? Because gay men, like straight women, know that men are more responsive to someone with good skin, good teeth, nice hair, pretty eyes, healthy bodies, etc. Grooming (and spending on beauty products) plays an enormous role in the lives of straight women and gay men. Both feel the need to remain attractive to their romantic interests. Converseley, women are far less driven by the beauty of their potential mates. What appeals to women is the security their partner represents. We've all seen numerous examples of the pretty trophy wife with the old codger (Larry King and whoever he's married to this month), and the two Plain Jane gay women partners (e.g., Mary Cheney and Heather Poe).

The need to keep her man attracted is what drives most women to spend on beauty products and it is mostly male opinion that enforces those beauty standards. In my opinion.

[JerrySeinfeld]

So far, I am the only one who voted Men. You have to question why it is women have historically searched for that fountain of youth. It isn't to appeal to one another or simply to fuel their vanity -- it's to remain attractive to the fickleness of male tastes and attractions. Remove men from the equation and women become far less concerned with outward appearance. Not too many of the original feminists were out there buying tons of lipstick and mascara.

Being gay, I see this all the time in the gay world, too. Gay men are far more concerned with looks, beauty, appearance, physique, etc., than their gay female or straight male counterparts. The reason? Because gay men, like straight women, know that men are more responsive to someone with good skin, good teeth, nice hair, pretty eyes, healthy bodies, etc. Grooming (and spending on beauty products) plays an enormous role in the lives of straight women and gay men. Both feel the need to remain attractive to their romantic interests. Converseley, women are far less driven by the beauty of their potential mates. What appeals to women is the security their partner represents. We've all seen numerous examples of the pretty trophy wife with the old codger (Larry King and whoever he's married to this month), and the two Plain Jane gay women partners (e.g., Mary Cheney and Heather Poe).

The need to keep her man attracted is what drives most women to spend on beauty products and it is mostly male opinion that enforces those beauty standards. In my opinion.

Yep. Exactly. Couldn't say it better myself.

So in summary:

Women wanna look good 'cause men are visual. Been that way since...oh...the cavemen!

And we didn't need a multi-billion dollar cosmetics industry to talk us into it. They just profit from an age old truth.

[blueblood]

So far, I am the only one who voted Men. You have to question why it is women have historically searched for that fountain of youth. It isn't to appeal to one another or simply to fuel their vanity -- it's to remain attractive to the fickleness of male tastes and attractions. Remove men from the equation and women become far less concerned with outward appearance. Not too many of the original feminists were out there buying tons of lipstick and mascara.

Being gay, I see this all the time in the gay world, too. Gay men are far more concerned with looks, beauty, appearance, physique, etc., than their gay female or straight male counterparts. The reason? Because gay men, like straight women, know that men are more responsive to someone with good skin, good teeth, nice hair, pretty eyes, healthy bodies, etc. Grooming (and spending on beauty products) plays an enormous role in the lives of straight women and gay men. Both feel the need to remain attractive to their romantic interests. Converseley, women are far less driven by the beauty of their potential mates. What appeals to women is the security their partner represents. We've all seen numerous examples of the pretty trophy wife with the old codger (Larry King and whoever he's married to this month), and the two Plain Jane gay women partners (e.g., Mary Cheney and Heather Poe).

The need to keep her man attracted is what drives most women to spend on beauty products and it is mostly male opinion that enforces those beauty standards. In my opinion.

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me. I could care less if the girl dressed the same way too. The guy has to dress nice too, and I think its BS a person shouldn't have to spend piles of money on their appearance. From what I've seen and this is pure speculation, a woman is more driven by a guy who flaunts himself (starting with spending all sorts of money on appearance) and who patronizes them. I only go to country dances now because the night clubs just make me sick.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me. I could care less if the girl dressed the same way too. The guy has to dress nice too, and I think its BS a person shouldn't have to spend piles of money on their appearance. From what I've seen and this is pure speculation, a woman is more driven by a guy who flaunts himself (starting with spending all sorts of money on appearance) and who patronizes them. I only go to country dances now because the night clubs just make me sick.

You're wacked man. Lots of chicks dig the rugged "who gives a shit" look - as long as you don't smell like crap and take care of your body.

In fact I read somewhere that women who are ovulating tend to be more attracted to men with "manly" features like facial hair or broad shoulders....nothing at all to do with clothing.

Being able to clean-up nice never hurts - but personally I think women like the "cleaned up" look alot more when they know there's a "man" (ie. not a priss) underneath - I've had a lot of women tell me exactly that.

[August1991]

I think this thread and poll are entirely misdirected. In most species (and I don't think humans are any different), it is the male who must stand out and attract attention:

The birds of paradise are members of the family Paradisaeidae of the order Passeriformes. They are found in Australasia regions of eastern Indonesia, New Guinea and northeastern Australia. The member of this family are perhaps best known for the striking plumage possessed by the male of most species, which are used in courtship displays in order to attract females.

Wikipedia

Of course, females in all species also compete with other females for suitable mates. So then, does your poll question really mean to ask whether, in seeking a mate, the competition is more ferocious between males or between females?

I don't know. But I'll bet that an indiviudal male has more reason to signal his difference.

[RB]

Beauty standards, blame who?

Square blame - MEN

Who is more likely to hold very narrow and specific views of the elements of female beauty

Women - they complain much and are dissatisfied with their body a whole lot. 95% of the time women find faults on their body. They strive for the super-model look standard.

You know the rest, wanting to be a model does not work. An average North American woman weight is 144lbs, do the math models are 108-116lbs.

So when the women turn around and ask the men about how they look, a man thinks and identifies "trick question" - some little voice advise the men "don't answer that".

So the women reckon if they don't do something drastic they'll lose their man. I mean he is far too silent about looks, which brings me to why the market if full over cosmetics to cover so called flaws.

Men are insightful and will read into their women wants, which by the way is directly link the male wants and appealing visual of women - men are the ones who head up the cosmetics industry prepare their women strive for the beauty standards.

[blueblood]

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me. I could care less if the girl dressed the same way too. The guy has to dress nice too, and I think its BS a person shouldn't have to spend piles of money on their appearance. From what I've seen and this is pure speculation, a woman is more driven by a guy who flaunts himself (starting with spending all sorts of money on appearance) and who patronizes them. I only go to country dances now because the night clubs just make me sick.

You're wacked man. Lots of chicks dig the rugged "who gives a shit" look - as long as you don't smell like crap and take care of your body.

In fact I read somewhere that women who are ovulating tend to be more attracted to men with "manly" features like facial hair or broad shoulders....nothing at all to do with clothing.

Being able to clean-up nice never hurts - but personally I think women like the "cleaned up" look alot more when they know there's a "man" (ie. not a priss) underneath - I've had a lot of women tell me exactly that.

Books are one thing, experiences are another. You go to a night club dressed like I said and tell me if you pick up what you want or you have to settle or you get flat out burned. I'm sorry but I'm going to assume that those women who talked to you are taking you for a ride. It's a shame as far as both male and female go to have to spend all sorts of money on appearances, females who wear a hoores uniform just to get guys to notice them and guys having to look like an abercrombie & fitch model so they won't get burned, this is BS and everyone knows it.

[jefferiah]

Since ancient times, women have fantasized about the proverbial fountain of youth. A recent report states the international cosmetics industry is worth about $150 billion dollars annually.

http://www.hellogorgeousguide.com/

TOILETRIES & COSMETICS 198,093,125 175,685,379 22,407,746 12.8 1,803.94 1,734.99 68.95 4.0

US MAGAZINE SPENDING ONLY

I dont always buy this line of thinking M. Dancer. First off for these companies to have billions to spend on cosmetic adevrtising, they would have had to have made millions. And in order for that to have happened people had to have wanted to be beautiful before they saw an ad. I think perfumes and cosmetics were around long long long before TV.

[jefferiah]

As far as cosmetics goes, as long as general appearance is ok I dont need someone to be all made up and polished with war paint. I know a lot of guys who feel the same way. Actually I find a girl who takes care of herself within reason, but doesnt go beyond that is really more attractive.

[DarkAngel_]

i picked men,

i want the girl i marry to be so beautiful, that if i were to look at her i would die from her beauty, but that would be just bad luck...

most likely i would just spontaneously combust.......

BOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!

[Liam]

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me. I could care less if the girl dressed the same way too. The guy has to dress nice too, and I think its BS a person shouldn't have to spend piles of money on their appearance. From what I've seen and this is pure speculation, a woman is more driven by a guy who flaunts himself (starting with spending all sorts of money on appearance) and who patronizes them. I only go to country dances now because the night clubs just make me sick.

Maybe that guy wouldn't be successful at a bar because he doesn't project the kind of "good provider" cues that urban club and bar-going women are looking for. A guy who walks into the urban bar setting who exhibits the cues of a good provider (as ruggedly goodlooking as the guy in your example, but wearing a suit and tie) would probably attract a number of women there. The guy in your example might be extremely successful in another kind of setting, like one where the women are looking for fellow blue-collar or rural types. The suit and tie guy in a rural bar could very well leave without getting a single phone number because he doesn't fit the profile of a good provider in that community.

[Figleaf]

...The beauty industry sets the standards with the billions of dollars it spends every year ...

Can you offer any tangible proof of that suspicion?

Are you asking for proof of what is spent on cosmetic advertising each year?

No, sorry ... I'm asking for proof that all their billions actually set any standards.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me. I could care less if the girl dressed the same way too. The guy has to dress nice too, and I think its BS a person shouldn't have to spend piles of money on their appearance. From what I've seen and this is pure speculation, a woman is more driven by a guy who flaunts himself (starting with spending all sorts of money on appearance) and who patronizes them. I only go to country dances now because the night clubs just make me sick.

You're wacked man. Lots of chicks dig the rugged "who gives a shit" look - as long as you don't smell like crap and take care of your body.

In fact I read somewhere that women who are ovulating tend to be more attracted to men with "manly" features like facial hair or broad shoulders....nothing at all to do with clothing.

Being able to clean-up nice never hurts - but personally I think women like the "cleaned up" look alot more when they know there's a "man" (ie. not a priss) underneath - I've had a lot of women tell me exactly that.

Books are one thing, experiences are another. You go to a night club dressed like I said and tell me if you pick up what you want or you have to settle or you get flat out burned. I'm sorry but I'm going to assume that those women who talked to you are taking you for a ride. It's a shame as far as both male and female go to have to spend all sorts of money on appearances, females who wear a hoores uniform just to get guys to notice them and guys having to look like an abercrombie & fitch model so they won't get burned, this is BS and everyone knows it.

You're either hangin' in some lameass night clubs or talking to the wrong women.

For men, in most cases it doesn't matter what you wear, it's how you handle yourself.

Certainly dressing appropriately is important (wearing a T & Jeans to a black tie isn't cool). But on the margin what really matters is how you handle yourself around the women you're after.

Ask any woman - she'll tell you the same thing.

[kimmy]

Ask any woman - she'll tell you the same thing.

Only part right. Much like the Canadian Forces, I believe in the "3 D" system. Dress, deportment, and discipline.

It's find to be all cocky and confident, but if you look like a slob or can't handle your liquor, you can head straight back to latrine duty, Private.

-k

[Black Dog]

No, sorry ... I'm asking for proof that all their billions actually set any standards.

If they didn't, they're throwing their money away.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the notion that the media simply mirror's our society, and that its portrayals have no effect strikes me as dreadfully simplistic.

But let's' leave that aside for a moment (along with the debate over how such standards are developed and maintained) and look at some other issues.

Are the beauty standards/ideals reflected in/promulgated by the media representative?

If not, is the portrayal of unrepresentative and unrealistic ideal images as the standard healthy for our society?

If people have the choice (as some say they must) to reject such images, why does it seem like more and more people are internalizing these ideal images, measuring themselves against them and, finding themselves wanting, resorting to more extreme and desperate measures to meet them?

What do you folks think of this? (The linked article undermines JerryS's feeble pleadings that the western beauty standard, as portrayed in the media, is a paragon of good health.)

[JerrySeinfeld]

Ask any woman - she'll tell you the same thing.

Only part right. Much like the Canadian Forces, I believe in the "3 D" system. Dress, deportment, and discipline.

It's find to be all cocky and confident, but if you look like a slob or can't handle your liquor, you can head straight back to latrine duty, Private.

-k

Very cute - but tell me this Kimmy:

But the point I was arguing was this: Someone on this forum (too lazy to look back right now) is saying that as a guy, if you go to a nightclub and don't dress to the 9's you not "getting any play" and I'm calling BS - that as long as you're not dressed "inappropriately" then you can get away with simple non-brand name clothing if your a good looking guy who knows how to carry and conversation and have a good laugh...tru or not?

[Michael Hardner]

Weak people are susceptible to bad messages. Men and women both suffer from this affliction.

In order to fix the problem completely, you can ban all messages that could be taken the wrong way, or you can make all people strong. Neither goal is achievable.

[kimmy]

But the point I was arguing was this: Someone on this forum (too lazy to look back right now) is saying that as a guy, if you go to a nightclub and don't dress to the 9's you not "getting any play" and I'm calling BS - that as long as you're not dressed "inappropriately" then you can get away with simple non-brand name clothing if your a good looking guy who knows how to carry and conversation and have a good laugh...tru or not?

I guess it depends what you mean by "dress to the 9's", "inappropriately", and the proviso "...if you're a good looking guy".

-k