Maher Arar has pared down his $400-million lawsuit against

[Remiel]

Are you trying to suggest that your grandfather serving in World War 2 somehow is a singular qualifier of being a worthy Canadian who should get to stay in this country? You're just riding his coat tails.

Both of my Grandfathers served in World War 2, as well as one of my Grandmothers I think, as a nurse. That doesn't mean I'm a more worthy Canadian than anyone else. It probably means our Grandparents were worthy Canadians, but it means squat about us.

[Black Dog]

But that's a sign of the bigger picture, you would EASILY throw out a Canadian who paid into services all his life. Who helped build this country, who's grandfather served in World War 2... all becuase you don't agree with my nationalistic stance on our country.

I don't think you should be thrown out, but I also disagree that your stance on this issue is purely nationalistic. Xenophobic, ill-informed, and shrill, maybe.

[M.Dancer]

Nationalism is racism

[watching&waiting]

I am sorry but your opiion seems to be fouling the air in our free and democratic country. You believe that only those born here are Canadians and you would like to see the teiring of citizen classes. You forget though that we all for most part are not true Canadians as we all come from immigration, ecept for the native people. Arar was living and working here in Canada and raising a family here all his children were born here. Both he and his wife would have made well into $2-3 hundred thousand a year here before this happened. So no he was not here to collect welfare or for the healthcare. I really do not know why I have to explain this to you. Read up about things before you make posts and you will mayb e then not seem like a racist idiot. An uninformed one at that.

You have admitted you know nothing about this guy or what happened to him. But you sure want him out of our country. Well let me say this Arar if he had not had this happen by now whould have contributed over $500,000.00 in taxes and would have given many times that over his career. Just how much have you given? He has had two children born here and so they will probablu also be highly educated and contribute even more. I can only hope that you never have had children. I would hope that there are mitigating circumstances for your lack of compassion and intellect in these matters. Please do us all a favour and just take some time and read what this is about.

[Black Dog]

mikedavid sez:

He is Syrian and that's his homeland.

Arar left Syria at age 17 and never went back. As for his dual citizenship, Syria doen't make it easy for citizens to renounce their Syrian citizenship:

LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP:

VOLUNTARY: Though voluntary renunciation of Syrian citizenship is permitted by law, the Syrian Information Office stated that it is so complicated that it is best not to attempt the process. In effect, according to that Office, the process is complicated in order to discourage renunciation of Syrian citizenship. Former citizens of Syria probably maintain an unofficial dual citizenship status and would be subject to Syrian law as citizens should they return to Syria.

Exception: Persons of military service age are not permitted to renounce citizenship.

Link (go to page 192)

Note Arar left Syria in the first place to avoid mandatory military service.

[mikedavid00]

Are you trying to suggest that your grandfather serving in World War 2 somehow is a singular qualifier of being a worthy Canadian who should get to stay in this country? You're just riding his coat tails.

Both of my Grandfathers served in World War 2, as well as one of my Grandmothers I think, as a nurse. That doesn't mean I'm a more worthy Canadian than anyone else. It probably means our Grandparents were worthy Canadians, but it means squat about us.

I place you as far more worthy than someone who came here 10 years ago and holds dual citizenship.

A piece of paper doesn't dictate absolute equality amongst citizens of this country. That's my opinion of course.

[Black Dog]

I place you as far more worthy than someone who came here 10 years ago and holds dual citizenship.

Thousands of Canadians hold dual citizenship. Should they be tortured too?

[Black Dog]

Some more clarification on this case.

geoffery:

Sounds like the torture claims were merely a money grab. Why not sue the Americans, they actually deported him (all within the context of the law, mind you)??

He tried.

A U.S. federal court has dismissed a lawsuit against the Bush administration brought by Ottawa engineer Maher Arar, essentially giving Washington the green light to continue its practice of sending terrorist suspects to third countries where they could be tortured.

Brooklyn District Court Judge David Trager cited the need for national security and secrecy in making his decision, but also raised the possibility of Canadian complicity in the decision to send Arar, now 35, to Syria in 2002, where he was tortured for almost a year.

[Saturn]

Are you trying to suggest that your grandfather serving in World War 2 somehow is a singular qualifier of being a worthy Canadian who should get to stay in this country? You're just riding his coat tails.

Both of my Grandfathers served in World War 2, as well as one of my Grandmothers I think, as a nurse. That doesn't mean I'm a more worthy Canadian than anyone else. It probably means our Grandparents were worthy Canadians, but it means squat about us.

I place you as far more worthy than someone who came here 10 years ago and holds dual citizenship.

A piece of paper doesn't dictate absolute equality amongst citizens of this country. That's my opinion of course.

That's just your opinion and you should keep it to yourself. Arar CHOSE Canada to be his home, which IMO makes him at least as Canadian (or even more) as someone who is here by default (like you). He worked hard, got a good degree and a good job. He paid more than you have in taxes. He probably didn't spend his days badmouthing people who worked harder and got better jobs. As far as I'm concerned, the two of you are not equal indeed. Now you should stop ranting. Take an anger managment course or educate yourself a bit more on the subject because this much hatred cannot be good for you (or anyone around you either).

[Melanie_]

I call bullshit, mikedavid. How do you go from this:

What is this all about in a nutshell. I tuned out this issue whenever I heard it on the news over the years.

to this:

We should have got him, his brothers, his sister, his mother, his father, his grandparents, and his children, wife, other wife, and distant cousins and GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF OUR COUNTRY.

overnight?

Most of your posts seem to be about the immigration system, and this case sounds like it is dear to your heart, not something you came to MLW to get information about. You had an agenda in starting this thread, and had a fully formulated viewpoint already.

We should all stop feeding the troll.

[Figleaf]

What exactly was the faulty information Canada gave to the U.S. regarding Maher Arar?

Look for that HERE

How can anyone come to a conclusion regarding his credibility when his testimony is kept secret and his innocence was not determined in a court of law?

Well, presumably the commissioner who heard the evidence can come to conclusions on it.

As to a court of law, there is no need for his innocence to be determined in one since he has never been charged with anything. Accordingly, he is innocent.

The whole point of the matter is Mr. Maher was a suspect at a very dangerous time concerning possible terrorist actions against the U.S. or even Canada. CSIS and the RCMP cannot play games when it comes to national security and perhaps in reality RCMP information reasonable at the time.

Exactly. The mustn't play games implicating innocent men when they ought to be out catching bad guys.

Why was Mr. Arar (an Arab) engaged in international travel at a time of terrorist activity.

Are you suggesting that Arabs ought to refrain from travelling??? Only westerners own the skys?

[mikedavid00]

We should all stop feeding the troll.

I haven't read that staement in many years.

[Black Dog]

As to a court of law, there is no need for his innocence to be determined in one since he has never been charged with anything. Accordingly, he is innocent.

Yup. Not "not guilty." innocent. No indictment, no charge, no trial.

'sfunny: here we have what appears to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story: guy comes to Canada to escape an authoritarian regime, and makes something of himself. Gets an education, gets a job, marries (his wife Monia, IIRC, has a PhD), has kids, pays taxes. But then his own government sells him down the river by virtue of some very dodgy evidence and the same people who holler that we should only be allowing people just like Maher Arar into the country are very quick to find him guilty in the court of public opinion for quite literally nothing more than his being born in the wrong country. Sad. Worse: stupid.

[mikedavid00]

As to a court of law, there is no need for his innocence to be determined in one since he has never been charged with anything. Accordingly, he is innocent.

Yup. Not "not guilty." innocent. No indictment, no charge, no trial.

'sfunny: here we have what appears to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story: guy comes to Canada to escape an authoritarian regime, and makes something of himself. Gets an education, gets a job, marries (his wife Monia, IIRC, has a PhD), has kids, pays taxes. But then his own government sells him down the river by virtue of some very dodgy evidence and the same people who holler that we should only be allowing people just like Maher Arar into the country are very quick to find him guilty in the court of public opinion for quite literally nothing more than his being born in the wrong country. Sad. Worse: stupid.

He used services. His wife has spent more time in shcool than actually working. He has not even spent a lot of time working and does nothing now but spend his life on his damn legal cases with his 10 lawyers. His wife got into politics.

And not only this, his family has ties to Al-Queda.

Do you think him taking out loans and going to school impresses me? Lol..

WHat impresses me is how much he's snowballing all you guys. It's impressive how much his giving all Canadians the finger and is taking us for a ride. He's laughing in his sleep and is surely planning his trips to Mecca when he gets his money.

And he's an activist. He'll use the money to promote his greater cause.

I was speaking to my ex-co worker from Syria himself and do you know what he said about Arar today on MSN when I asked him about this whole thing?

"He's a lying peice of sh***"

That came from a Syrian that I used to work with that is well versed on his case. If anythign, the immigrants know what he's doing. It's YOU guys that play the fiddle for him and promote him as being some hero.

He said some other things too. I should see if I have my log enabled on my other computer so I can paste the conversation from a real Syrian. He see's through him becuase he's also from the old country.

You don't have any idea about the opertunistic nature of some of these people. Him and his wife need to leave the country immediatly.

[kimmy]

What is this all about in a nutshell. I tuned out this issue whenever I heard it on the news over the years.

Was this the guy who got injured on the battlefield in Afgahnistan and came to Canada to get medical care from his injuries?

What's this Arar thing about and why is $37,000,000 of our taxes going to him and his family?

And not only this, his family has ties to Al-Queda.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You have confused Arar with the Khadr family.

-k

[mikedavid00]

What is this all about in a nutshell. I tuned out this issue whenever I heard it on the news over the years.

Was this the guy who got injured on the battlefield in Afgahnistan and came to Canada to get medical care from his injuries?

What's this Arar thing about and why is $37,000,000 of our taxes going to him and his family?

And not only this, his family has ties to Al-Queda.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You have confused Arar with the Khadr family.

-k

Lol.. you are just being taken for a ride. The Syrian community is extrememly small and tight knit in Ottawa. I'm from Ottawa and my best friend growing up immigrated from Syria. He's trying to get rich now and is taking you all for a ride. Plain and simple. Read below on the truth.

"family members who had been jailed for alleged ties to the Muslim Brotherhood,"

"Shortly after Maher Arar was returned to Canada but before he spoke to the press, Canadian officials told CTV News that:

while in custody in Syria for almost a year, Canadian Maher Arar provided information to the Syrians about al Qaeda cells operating in Canada.

They say Arar also provided information about the Muslim Brotherhood, a radical Islamic group linked to Osama bin Laden, and information about four other Canadians: Arwad al-Bushi, a Syrian-born Canadian being held in a Syrian jail; Abdullah al Malki, another Syrian-born Canadian being held in Syria; Ahmad Abou-el-Maati, an Eyptian Canadian in custody in Egypt; and Mohamed Harkat, born in Algeria, who is being held under an anti-terrorism security certificate at the Ottawa Detention Centre....

Sources told CTV News the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) has received the transcripts of the Syrian interrogation of Arar. (Source: CTV transcript, 10/24/03."

Now everyone can take their fingers out of their ears and go back to making him into some hero.

[geoffrey]

I really doubt he was tortured...

Oh come on. WTF would you know?

The cards don't stack in his favor that he was tortured. He simply can't provide the burden of proof.

Mike is right here. You make an accusation like that, you better prove it. There is no evidence. His story on his website makes claims of him being severely beaten, then meeting with embassy officals. They are trained to detect torture of even the most subtle nature, that is their job, especially when posted in a country like Syria. The first and only time that Arar claimed tortured was after meeting with legal advice in Canada. Sounds like a load of shit to me.

He was clear headed enough to remember the exact dates of the beatings, but not clear headed enough to realise that if he said the word tortured in a meeting with the embassy officals or the Red Cross (Cresent) they'd come down on the Syrians like a tonne of bricks. He didn't.

His story is carefully constructed but full of logical issues. He said he was in another room when he heard a man's head slam against the desk. How does he not know it was someone's foot kicking a cabinet or something? There is alot of assumptions made by Arar and his story lacks overall crediability. Someone beaten into mental collapse isn't going to be cleaned up and talk coherently to embassy staff a couple days later.

There is a tonne of BS in this story, both from the RCMP and Arar. Did the RCMP goof... yup. Was Arar tortured? Unlikely at best.

It's crap.

The man should be paid for whatever his lost earnings were and maybe get a nice fat government job somewhere. That's it though. To get a huge civil reward like that, he better damn well come up with better evidence.

He's playing with your emotions people, all to get a nice big chunk of money. He's an opportunist at best.

[Charles Anthony]

Gets an education, gets a job, marries (his wife Monia, IIRC, has a PhD), has kids, pays taxes. But then his own government sells him down the river by virtue of some very dodgy evidence and the same people who holler that we should only be allowing people just like Maher Arar into the country are very quick to find him guilty in the court of public opinion for quite literally nothing more than his being born in the wrong country. Sad. Worse: stupid.

You are too generous. I put these secret g-men on the "bad" shelf.

He was clear headed enough to remember the exact dates of the beatings, but not clear headed enough to realise that if he said the word tortured in a meeting with the embassy officals or the Red Cross (Cresent) they'd come down on the Syrians like a tonne of bricks. He didn't.

You give the Red Cross a lot of pull.

His story is carefully constructed but full of logical issues.

You really think it is that straight forward??

TORTURE

Of course, in our "enlightened" times, governments wish to avoid detection. Therefore, they prefer mental cruelty, sexual stuff (Lancet 336: 289, 1990; the methods are those that will not leave marks), near-asphyxiation, near-drowning, electricity from a magneto or charged object (field telephones and "stun weapons" are popular, delivering an agonizing but safe voltage), and application of electricity over a relatively large surface area (i.e., saline-soaked gauze pads between the skin and the jumper cables / magneto telephone; this is the world's most popular means of inflicting severe physical pain; review Am. J. For. Med. Path. 5: 333, 1984).

Low tech torture often involves beating with sandbags, which can rupture the guts without bruising the skin. When this leads to an agonizing death from peritonitis in a few days, there will be no external signs of torture, and the police will claim "heart attack".

---SNIP---

People who have been genuinely tortured usually have post-traumatic stress disorder (intrusive memories, "increased arousal", i.e., jumpiness) and particularly sleep disturbances. These seem to be fairly predictable in survivors (J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 177: 147, 1989), and in fact having been tortured is the strongest predictor of future post-traumatic stress disorder (Br. J. Psych. 162: 55, 1993). Treating survivors: J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 179: 4, 1991; JAMA 272: 357, 400, & 600, 1994; Br. J. Psych. 166: 705, 1995.

Commitment to a cause, a strong social support, and prior knowledge and preparedness seem to be helpful in preventing the most severe post-traumatic stress disorder

, but the after-effects are still serious and long-term (Am. J. Psych. 15: 76, 1994).

Physicians have demonstrated real heroism in resisting these practices, and trying to control them. Other physicians have cooperated (Saddam's doctors: JAMA 291: 1480, 2004).

---SNIP---

Because of attempts to avoid detection, it may be difficult to determine whether a person seeking political asylum is simply making up a story.

Presently, there are attempts being made to make this scientific, but it's still a real challenge.

See For. Sci. Int. 76: 69 & 77, 1995; update from Denmark Am. J. For. Med. Path. 26: 125, 2005.

VIOLENCE, ACCIDENTS, POISONING

Ed Friedlander, M.D., Pathologist

[jbg]

The man should be paid for whatever his lost earnings were and maybe get a nice fat government job somewhere. That's it though. To get a huge civil reward like that, he better damn well come up with better evidence.

Only one problem; what productive work that wouild benefit the Canadian people could he do for the government?

[normanchateau]

The man should be paid for whatever his lost earnings were and maybe get a nice fat government job somewhere. That's it though. To get a huge civil reward like that, he better damn well come up with better evidence.

Only one problem; what productive work that wouild benefit the Canadian people could he do for the government?

He could be Canada's next ambassador to Syria.

[watching&waiting]

It really makes me wonder about those who question if Arar was tortured. It is a very well known fact that Syria does use torture on a daily basis, as a toll to extract information. It has been documented and is pretty much known world wide. That is the reason the USA sent him there to be intarogated by them. Only the most naiuve among us would not have expected anything different. The Canadian Consul in Syria, should have also known this as it is not something that is hidden.

I would be more surprised if the Syrians had not tortured Arar. Even though the Syrians did say Arar signed things during interogation, that were not true, should also indicate that torture was used. Also I must say that it is not being questioned by the Canadian government about the torture because they do know it was more likely then not done by the Syrians.

I will also like to point out that there is no Syrian community in Ottawa as Mikedavid00 claims. The east end around Walkley, Russel and St Laurent Blvd, is where the largest part if miidle eastern immigrants are. To say that this is a syrian community would be like saying less then a 100 families make a community.

I also want to point out that since Mikedavid00 says he is from Ottawa, I do want to apologise to the rest of Canada, to think that Ottawa is the kind of place that grows this type of poster. Most people even when very disappointted in the government, do not have his racist hate come about. I can only think that maybe he was once denied something he wanted badly only to have it given to someone of another race, to expalin his way of thinking.

[normanchateau]

The man should be paid for whatever his lost earnings were and maybe get a nice fat government job somewhere. That's it though. To get a huge civil reward like that, he better damn well come up with better evidence.

Only one problem; what productive work that wouild benefit the Canadian people could he do for the government?

He could be Canada's next ambassador to Syria.

Correction. Make that Canadian Consul to Syria.

[Saturn]

Mike is right here. You make an accusation like that, you better prove it. There is no evidence. His story on his website makes claims of him being severely beaten, then meeting with embassy officals. They are trained to detect torture of even the most subtle nature, that is their job, especially when posted in a country like Syria. The first and only time that Arar claimed tortured was after meeting with legal advice in Canada. Sounds like a load of shit to me.

He was clear headed enough to remember the exact dates of the beatings, but not clear headed enough to realise that if he said the word tortured in a meeting with the embassy officals or the Red Cross (Cresent) they'd come down on the Syrians like a tonne of bricks. He didn't.

You got a strange sense of humour. Canadian officials didn't want him back, the RCMP provided questions to the Syrians for which they were to get answers (through torture), if he said the word "torture" they wouldn't have done a damned thing. The RCMP knew fully well he was tortured. They are simply lying that they didn't because that's a crime. You wouldn't expect them to admit to breaking Canadian law, now would you?

[myata]

Last time I checked on the issue, we had a commissioner who carefully examined all the evidence and spent months (and $$) investigating the it. I believe he has concluded that Mr. Arar was, in fact, tortured. To contradict that resolution I'd expect MD (or anyone else for that matter) to conduct at least equally comprehensive research (and reference evidence thereof). Otherwise, these statements should be taken for what they appear to be: pointless and useless BS.

Now that Mr. Arar has suffered through no fault of his own, he's of course free to pursue whatever remedies he feels is adequate. The court will determine if he has a valid claim.

[mikedavid00]

Oh come on. WTF would you know?

The cards don't stack in his favor that he was tortured. He simply can't provide the burden of proof.

and maybe get a nice fat government job somewhere. That's it though. He's playing with your emotions people, all to get a nice big chunk of money. He's an opportunist at best.

I don't feel he is entitled to a job at the gov't in any way, shape, or form. His own people will hire him here in Toronto.

He is taking everyone for a ride.. i'm still waiting for my Syrian friend to logon to MSN so I can ask him about Arar and then peope will see what the community thinks of him.