What do you believe?

[ClearWest]

Then I guess you missed observing the workings of the Boston Diocese? You missed meeting Ted Haggerty?

Jimmy Swaggert?

Pat Buchanan?

All of them, with the exception of Buchanan, got "piece" all right.

The only example that I recognize of those four names is Swaggert, who claimed to be a devout Christian, but became involved in scandal after scandal. All I can really say about that is -- yeah, he was a hypocrite. He wasn't keeping the commandments... but there are people that do. There are people that are really sincere and really try their best and do what they feel is right. Those are the people who I was talking about.

Living ones life based on the ten commandments will provide a nice blue print for living right. They are good rules to live by whether atheist, agnostic or Catholic .

But it does not make them better people in and of itself.

I agree. Actually, I might go so far as to say that Jesus taught the same thing. He taught that not only should you seek to obey the commandments outwardly, but within your heart. Matthew, chapter 5. I'll paraphrase: Thou shalt not kill, but he that is angry with his brother does sin also. Thou shalt not commit adultery, but he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has commited adultery in his heart.

What makes people better is not necessarily living the letter of the law (although that helps), but what makes the difference is the mighty change in heart that people experience when they really desire to do good.

In my observations, religious people are the worlds biggest hypocrites on the face of this earth ,bar none.Time and time again this is borne out on my dealings. The biggest hypocrite my company has is a devout Jehovah Witness. This guy is a cheating lying backstabbing sob. And I have the proof too ! But are they all like that? Nope, haven't met enough of them to know.

Many are. Every group has its bad eggs. Just like Muslims have extremists that do bombings in the street, it doesn't make them all bad. The Gospel (Christianity) has imperfect people following it. Things like this are bound to happen. But people that truly follow the gospel, that sincerely try, do become better people. I feel that I have become a better person by trying to stay true to my gospel principles, and I notice a difference in the people around me as well. From my experience, people that break the commandments end up being much more unhappy than those that keep them.

[DarkAngel_]

ok, who can agree on this;

1: no one is telling the truth because they do not know the truth.

2:many unexplained events, as fascinating as they are, are being ignored in science and religion.

3: that we should FIND the truth, using science, instinct, philosophy and the willingness to learn.

4: that if we do not find a 'crumb' of the truth, we will go mad.

5: that for some odd reason, liberals like blue cheese?

my point is, you all are just finding a contradiction to everything everyone is saying. can we agree that we have not found truth and so shoul we search for it? i want this post to STAY ON TOPIC.

now from truth,

religious peoples; history results to the future, but is not the future, no more guesses, we need hard stone fact to find the truth, and no, sorry, a 'your truth' does not count. (no more contradicting statements to valid points please)

Science people's; though events current looked at are more relevant, in the past we may learn of a history we never knew, a part of our meaning lying in our past, so no more condescendence, and make relative points to truth or theory based on everyone. (no more contradicting statements to you too, peoples)

i'm not ordering this, i am no boss, i just would like to see some brainstorming on the truth of the matter, not complex hypocritical slurrs and meaning. (poetry does not count) so...ya...that’s it.

[newbie]

As for your mystics, etc. Anytime one of them sees fit to get $1 million or have a $1 million sent to their favourite charity, then can go see James Randi and prove their worth. As of yet, not a single peson has been able to.

Randi's little test can never be passed, just like the one Victor Zammit has for proof of the afterlife will never be passed. link

[cybercoma]

As for your mystics, etc. Anytime one of them sees fit to get $1 million or have a $1 million sent to their favourite charity, then can go see James Randi and prove their worth. As of yet, not a single peson has been able to.

Randi's little test can never be passed, just like the one Victor Zammit has for proof of the afterlife will never be passed. link

Randi's test will never be passed because psychics are not real! They simply don't provide results in a scientific environment.

[Drea]

God does not exist. God is a fantasy made up by humans in their effort to alleviate life's difficulties and understand death.

Death is the end. There is no heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, no resurrection. You are gone.

So let me get this straight: in your world

- Jesus is reduced to a charlatan, as are the people who witnessed his miracles,

- everyone who has ever had a vision or seen/felt a presence of God are nuts,

- all mediums and psychics are bogus, and

- every religion is wrong.

Hmm, centuries of belief out the window. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

- Jesus was a man who tried to teach people to be nice to one another. What a guy -- kuddos to him for trying.

- No, I wouldn't say they're nuts. I'd say perhaps they had a personal epiphany (an "ahaaa moment) that they THINK is from outside themselves (God).

- Absolutely not. The human mind is incredible. We have the capacity for ESP etc, but 99.9% of us don't know how to use it (me included).

- Yes, every religion is wrong.

Back in our caveman days

We saw the sun go down (die) -- we saw the sun come up (ressurection)

We saw the leaf on the tree wither in the fall (death) -- we saw it come back in the spring (resurrection)

No wonder we think there is life after death. We see resurrections daily in nature.

It's very difficult to face the fact that you will simply no longer exist so we made up a story about how we go to "Valhalla" or "heaven" or "wherever".

[betsy]

Back in our caveman days

We saw the sun go down (die) -- we saw the sun come up (ressurection)

We saw the leaf on the tree wither in the fall (death) -- we saw it come back in the spring (resurrection)

No wonder we think there is life after death. We see resurrections daily in nature.

The male has what they could've symbolized as...."resurrection"...and "death!"

Bwahahaha-ha-ha I better get out of here. My mind is in the gutter!

[Slavik44]

There is one verse in the Bible that everyone should read...

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he

exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I remember going to bible camp over the summer as a kid, and that was the verse they had us repeat every day for like five minutes, drilled it into our heads. They also drilled into our heads that Faith was a good thing.

Ultimately however, Faith is the acceptance of something with out proof. And you gotta ask what kind of asshole makes people with a logical mind and then tells them, oh yeah...to really please me, do not act like a logical person. Instead you need to be like a child.

Speaking of Santa Clause, when I was a kid I never really believed in Santa Clause, because the bible never said Jesus created Santa Clause, so he couldn't exist. But one Christmas theere was something I really wanted, so what happened? Suprise, Santa Clause existed, and I wrote him a letter.

I was basically talking to Santa Clause. Now Santa Clause works in Mysterious ways. You see sometimes he answers your requests, sometimes he uses other people in your life to manifest that request or help you on that request, or sometimes Santa is just forced to say no. In my case Santa said no. Obviously thats not a reason not to believe in Santa Clause, because Santa Clause works in Mysteries ways. Now I am more convinced that Santa was real as due to Santa saying no to my original request, my life is so much better.

Obviously we have proof that St Nicholas once walked the earth and to please Santa Clause all you need is Faith. I mean are people really willing to say that Santa Clause is nothing more then some Historical charlatan?

Anyways my point, oh yeah. For a long time I had denied Santa Clause Existed, but then when I needed Santa Clause he was there for me, like God for a dieing sinner. You see I wanted Santa to Exist, so suddenly he existed. Why? for no other reason then I wanted him to, the power of Santa of Course.

What about a big diamond burried in everyones backyard? I wouldn't want to live in a world where there wasn't one. Obvoiusly, this would improve peoples lives, and help them live longer. Instead of sitting on their ass watching wrestling and eating donoughts, they would have a shovel in their hands digging holes. In doing so they would get excersize; which would mean they live longer, have healthier bodies, and are happier as excersize releases endorphins in your body. But just because believing in a diamond burried in your backyard makes your life better it doesn't proove the diamond actually exists. Especially as there is no evidence of this and those who claim to have found it, can't actually proove it. Maybe they would say the same thing, just have faith.

For that matter why discriminate, Lets see we can believe in Jesus for our Middle Eastern Content, Amun For our African Content, The original vow of the Amida Buddha Sect for our Asain Content, We can believe in Joseph Smith Jr. for our North American content, We can believe in Huitzilopochtli for our South American Content, We can believe in Thor for our European Content, and the Rainbow Serpent to cover our Oceania Requirement. There just have faith.

Or you could sit back and say, If God created me, he must recognize that he equiped me with a logic mind, and in doing so he must recognize how unreasonable it is, to ask me to shut that logic off to believe in him. The greater the claim the greater the required evidence neccessary to proove it.

[cybercoma]

There is one verse in the Bible that everyone should read...

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he

exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I remember going to bible camp over the summer as a kid, and that was the verse they had us repeat every day for like five minutes, drilled it into our heads. They also drilled into our heads that Faith was a good thing.

Ultimately however, Faith is the acceptance of something with out proof. And you gotta ask what kind of asshole makes people with a logical mind and then tells them, oh yeah...to really please me, do not act like a logical person. Instead you need to be like a child.

Speaking of Santa Clause, when I was a kid I never really believed in Santa Clause, because the bible never said Jesus created Santa Clause, so he couldn't exist. But one Christmas theere was something I really wanted, so what happened? Suprise, Santa Clause existed, and I wrote him a letter.

I was basically talking to Santa Clause. Now Santa Clause works in Mysterious ways. You see sometimes he answers your requests, sometimes he uses other people in your life to manifest that request or help you on that request, or sometimes Santa is just forced to say no. In my case Santa said no. Obviously thats not a reason not to believe in Santa Clause, because Santa Clause works in Mysteries ways. Now I am more convinced that Santa was real as due to Santa saying no to my original request, my life is so much better.

Obviously we have proof that St Nicholas once walked the earth and to please Santa Clause all you need is Faith. I mean are people really willing to say that Santa Clause is nothing more then some Historical charlatan?

Anyways my point, oh yeah. For a long time I had denied Santa Clause Existed, but then when I needed Santa Clause he was there for me, like God for a dieing sinner. You see I wanted Santa to Exist, so suddenly he existed. Why? for no other reason then I wanted him to, the power of Santa of Course.

What about a big diamond burried in everyones backyard? I wouldn't want to live in a world where there wasn't one. Obvoiusly, this would improve peoples lives, and help them live longer. Instead of sitting on their ass watching wrestling and eating donoughts, they would have a shovel in their hands digging holes. In doing so they would get excersize; which would mean they live longer, have healthier bodies, and are happier as excersize releases endorphins in your body. But just because believing in a diamond burried in your backyard makes your life better it doesn't proove the diamond actually exists. Especially as there is no evidence of this and those who claim to have found it, can't actually proove it. Maybe they would say the same thing, just have faith.

For that matter why discriminate, Lets see we can believe in Jesus for our Middle Eastern Content, Amun For our African Content, The original vow of the Amida Buddha Sect for our Asain Content, We can believe in Joseph Smith Jr. for our North American content, We can believe in Huitzilopochtli for our South American Content, We can believe in Thor for our European Content, and the Rainbow Serpent to cover our Oceania Requirement. There just have faith.

Or you could sit back and say, If God created me, he must recognize that he equiped me with a logic mind, and in doing so he must recognize how unreasonable it is, to ask me to shut that logic off to believe in him. The greater the claim the greater the required evidence neccessary to proove it.

Brilliant post! Thank-you for contributing.

[ClearWest]

Or you could sit back and say, If God created me, he must recognize that he equiped me with a logic mind, and in doing so he must recognize how unreasonable it is, to ask me to shut that logic off to believe in him. The greater the claim the greater the required evidence neccessary to proove it.

We were created with a logic mind, I agree. We were also created with the strength and animal instinct to be able to kill other people... that doesn't mean we have to use that potential in such a way. Any tool can become a weapon in the wrong hands. We can use our physical strength to do good, or we can use it to do bad. We can use our logic to solve problems within our lives, and we can use it to shut God out of our lives. It all depends on what we choose to use it for. You can have logic and faith at the same time. Just like you can have strength -and the will to use your strength appropriately- at the same time.

Why is faith a requirement? Why can't God just show himself to us? Why doesn't he just come down here and solve all of our problems?

Why? Because he wants us to learn to make these decisions for ourselves. If he came down and revealed everything to us, we wouldn't have to exercise any effort on our part. Faith and trust, I believe, is one of the lessons of life which we are being taught. HOWEVER, like I said in a previous post, we will not be left in the dark! All you Bible scholars out there, flip to John 7:17. I'll paraphrase: He that doeth his will, will know of the doctrine, whether I speak of God, or whether I speak of myself.

It takes action on your part first. Draw near unto God, and he shall draw near unto thee. Ask, and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be open unto you.

[Slavik44]

Or you could sit back and say, If God created me, he must recognize that he equiped me with a logic mind, and in doing so he must recognize how unreasonable it is, to ask me to shut that logic off to believe in him. The greater the claim the greater the required evidence neccessary to proove it.

We were created with a logic mind, I agree. We were also created with the strength and animal instinct to be able to kill other people... that doesn't mean we have to use that potential in such a way. Any tool can become a weapon in the wrong hands. We can use our physical strength to do good, or we can use it to do bad. We can use our logic to solve problems within our lives, and we can use it to shut God out of our lives. It all depends on what we choose to use it for. You can have logic and faith at the same time. Just like you can have strength -and the will to use your strength appropriately- at the same time.

Why is faith a requirement? Why can't God just show himself to us? Why doesn't he just come down here and solve all of our problems?

Why? Because he wants us to learn to make these decisions for ourselves. If he came down and revealed everything to us, we wouldn't have to exercise any effort on our part. Faith and trust, I believe, is one of the lessons of life which we are being taught. HOWEVER, like I said in a previous post, we will not be left in the dark! All you Bible scholars out there, flip to John 7:17. I'll paraphrase: He that doeth his will, will know of the doctrine, whether I speak of God, or whether I speak of myself.

It takes action on your part first. Draw near unto God, and he shall draw near unto thee. Ask, and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be open unto you.

Well I debated wether or not I should respond to this now or wait, I have a final exam I need to be studying for but whatever, I don't think I could study with my mind focused on this anways so lets clear my mind.

For starters I just want to adress how I came to the conclusion of being an agnostic-athiest. I was raised in a Christian home, went to church every sunday, often times would go even mor ethen that. I would read the bible every night with my parents, and pray before every meal. On my own time I even read the whole bible as a way to gain knowledge. In the world we live in however, their were different views then my own. I spent alot of time trying to proove God existed and that it was the God of the Bible. Ultimately in my efforts to proove my beliefs, I found that instead, when the dust settled, I could no longer believe what I had tried so hard to proove. SO I don't really apreciate it when I hear people tell me how I just need to give God a chance, or I just need to believe, or ernestly seek him, thats what I did and that is how I ended up where I am now.

You made the arguement that God simply cannot come down and show himself to us because that would rob us of choice, obviously burning in hell for all eternity is much more reasonable. However truth be told the bible and free will do not co-exist.

Take the proposed biblical flood, almost everyone on the earth is disobeying God, and worse then that they won't repent. So what does God do? He floods the earth killing all but 8 people, because they wouldn't follow him. Or take one of the many cases of the Israelites. They are disobeying God, in one case God gets angry and sends fiery serpents to bite and kill the Israelites because they have gone astray. In another case an Israelite is out gather sticks on the sabbath, but God had commanded the Israelites not to do work on the sabbath (I like days off as well to bad God couldn't have made more sabbaths). But any ways this guy made a choice to work on the sabbath and in turn God killed him, for that choice. Or soddom and Gamorah, two cities, two ungodly cities, God gets angry that they are so ungodly, that they are not following Gods will, so he destroys the two cities. Take the promise land God gives to the Israelites. Did god consult the people he was taking it away from, no. They didn't have a choice, what God wanted he did.

That leaves us with two possible modern day conclusions. One of them is that God as recorded in the bible is just an explanation for natural events. Or we are left with an alternative conclusion: Thank God for dead soldiers, thank God for IED's, thank God for September 11, thank God for AIDS. Thank God for every single one of his righteous judgments that he executes upon a rebellious people.

In fact if we look at the bible closely we will find that God will not even follow his own word.

Take the story of Achan. You see Achan was an Israelite, and when the Israelites with Gods help, destroyed Jericho, Achan did something against God's will, he took goods from the city of Jericho for his own. Now after that, God was angry. So the next time Israel goes on a millitary campaign God ensures that Israelites lose the battle and that a number of people die. After that the Israelites ask God what they did wrong. It boils down to what Achan did. So God tells the Israelites what to do. And what do the Israelites do? They take Achan, They take Achans wife, They take Achans Sons and they Take Achans daughters and they stone them to death, for what Achan has done. After doing this, to show his pleasure with the Israelites punishment on Achan and his family, God scores for the Israelites a knock out victory, against the same people, that had previously taken the Israelites to school.

Now he did all this, including killing the children of Achan for a sin Achan commited, while at the same time having given the Israelites a law. A law that says Fathers shall not be put to death for the sins of their children, niether Children put to death for the Sins of their fathers.

Now you are going to sit back and tell me that God after killing millions of people, for disobodiance, after God breaks the rules he gave to the Israelites, that Suddenly God doesn't want to interfere with my will? Give me a break.

[cybercoma]

The story of Achan is one of my favourite examples.

The story of Abraham (one of the top dogs of the Bible) is another that's worth examining as well. God tells him to slaughter his son. No seriously, sit back and imagine killing your own child because you heard the voice of God.

I'll let it sink in for a minute.

God asked him to murder a child (not any child, HIS SON) to appease him.

Oh, I know...at the last second God pulled a fast one and said, "LOLZ! ABRAHAM! I was kidding, man!"

If your father took you up a mountain, when you were a child, and told you he was commanded by God to murder you, how exactly would you feel about it?

It's God's will, so amen?

I'm thinking an innocent child, that doesn't understand 'God' and 'religion' is not going to think it's a very funny practical joke.

And how do you get along with your dad after that? I mean, the guy was ready to murder you to show his devotion to this invisible dude in the sky that shows up as a voice inside daddy's head.

Yikes.

Let's go back to Sodom and Gemorrah for a minute. God destroyed the entire city because they were 'sinners', that wanted to 'know' (wink wink, nudge nudge) the angels that came to Lot. What does Lot, the hero of the story do?

He throws his virgin daughters out to the rapists, so the villagers can have their way with them.

Should I give you a second to think about that one too? Disgusted yet?

Oh but wait...Lot is the hero. He packs up his family and leaves the next day. Hurray! God saved Lot! Meanwhile, Lot's no-longer-virgin daughters were passed around the night before.

So as they're escaping and the city is burning to the ground, Lot's wife turns around to catch a glimpse of the action. BAM! God turns her into a pillar of salt!

Lot had his daughters raped by an entire village the night before, and he's saved by god; Lot's wife checks out the fireworks, God destroys her.

Oppressive to women much there, Yahweh?

[Melanie_]

Wait, Cybercoma, you're missing the best part. The oh-so-righteous Lot, the only man worth saving among all the "sinners" in Sodom and Gomorrah, then proceeded to father children on both of his daughters. But of course, this was portrayed as being not his fault, as the daughters deliberately tempted him - I think abusers have used that argument ever since.

[cybercoma]

Wait, Cybercoma, you're missing the best part. The oh-so-righteous Lot, the only man worth saving among all the "sinners" in Sodom and Gomorrah, then proceeded to father children on both of his daughters. But of course, this was portrayed as being not his fault, as the daughters deliberately tempted him - I think abusers have used that argument ever since.

You're a woman after my heart! I forgot that part!

[DarkAngel_]

ok... we are just shooting points of 'IM RIGHT' and 'what if im right'

so what is'nt real? to me the god of the many books out their is most likely not the real god, or there is no god at all.

the qeustion leads to how far you might go in your faith, without science. (which would be unfortunate) we cant just simply believe and i'm sure you can't convince us of this, or us you.

so, how about you give us science, we understand metaphor too so please let loose your artistic muse, but no more bad-bashing, i hate a debate when it's become useless!

brainstorm: where did we come from on earth, asia? europe?

brainstorm the design of mankind: the golden ratio compaired to math on other theories, the construct of a simple program 'built' into our DNA. (or something like that)

brainstorm: is what you say a truth? or a shot in the dark? (no more please, i cant stand this 'well i'm right and your wrong!" nonsense)

so, please no more, my theory was to begin the topic: 'What if,' and 'Well maybe,' 'I disagree because,' or ''ok then how about this',

can we not be assertive in this argument? i at a time said god does not exist, now i say he could, but to more then your books say!

so please be scilent, your raving histarics and condridictions, you waning babies! i respect you enough to know that this will lead now where!

if you know nothing and am ignorent, go to wikipedia, their you can look for your self, as for me, i'm reading the bible and studying world religion and histroy, thank you and please, good luck.

[Slavik44]

ok... we are just shooting points of 'IM RIGHT' and 'what if im right'

so what is'nt real? to me the god of the many books out their is most likely not the real god, or there is no god at all.

the qeustion leads to how far you might go in your faith, without science. (which would be unfortunate) we cant just simply believe and i'm sure you can't convince us of this, or us you.

so, how about you give us science, we understand metaphor too so please let loose your artistic muse, but no more bad-bashing, i hate a debate when it's become useless!

brainstorm: where did we come from on earth, asia? europe?

brainstorm the design of mankind: the golden ratio compaired to math on other theories, the construct of a simple program 'built' into our DNA. (or something like that)

brainstorm: is what you say a truth? or a shot in the dark? (no more please, i cant stand this 'well i'm right and your wrong!" nonsense)

so, please no more, my theory was to begin the topic: 'What if,' and 'Well maybe,' 'I disagree because,' or ''ok then how about this',

can we not be assertive in this argument? i at a time said god does not exist, now i say he could, but to more then your books say!

so please be scilent, your raving histarics and condridictions, you waning babies! i respect you enough to know that this will lead now where!

if you know nothing and am ignorent, go to wikipedia, their you can look for your self, as for me, i'm reading the bible and studying world religion and histroy, thank you and please, good luck.

Do you speak English as a first language? I do recognize at times that it is hard for people who do not speak english as first language to keep up with the connotations of certian words because your post was slightly incoherent and a little abrasive.

Anyways, If there is a God he is outside the realm of empirical Human knowledge, nothing more then a philisophical concept. Therefore it is impossible to request a purely scientific discussion of God, as any concept of God is outside of scientific knowledge. We cannot have a scientific discusion on god no more then we can have a scientific discussion on the flying spaghetti monster. This statement is not an attack on religion, it is simply the truth. Science is the practice of finding explanations for natural phenomena. Ask any theist, and they will tell you God is Supernatural. The only knowledge we have of god is human claims, so any discussion of god is going to be based on anylizing human claims.

1. Where did Humans originate on Earth

Well again this is a question of what our current knowledge base indicates, and that is Africa. Now it could be that our current knowledge base is not correct. But all we can be expected to go on is the physical and genetic evidence we have. That Evidence indicates an African Origin. Case closed. You can propose different ideas, make arguements...but ultimately it is hot air. The earliest human fossils found have been in Africa, genetics trace origins back to africa. So to make a conclusion based on current evidence, it would be Africa.

B: Is this Truth

Well it is a truth given our current knowledge, as more information is added to our knowledge base, this conclusion could change. But you can only make a conclusion based on what is within the realm of your knowledge.

2. The Design of Mankind

I would propose the design of man is a bottom up design, but then that wouldn't be my proposition.

[DarkAngel_]

about me not speaking "correctly" i do it quite intensionally, look at the way they are said and they can mean more. otherwords i'm trying to say it, as if i really was saying it, kinda hard...

but also;

my spelling sucks.

good vocab, but forgetful of the use of words.

suck at grammer.

good at poetry.

can only speak english,(american)

my point of this post is to find the truth, to ()#!! with our personal disagreements!'

how about volitires? who is willing to do reasearch on the truth, back to front, anyone wish to join me on my hunt?

the qeustion is, how much do we know of how we are here? and if you have a theory, let loose! i love brainstorming!!

[ClearWest]

Slavik44,

You made the arguement that God simply cannot come down and show himself to us because that would rob us of choice,

I didn't say that. Here's what I said:

Why is faith a requirement? Why can't God just show himself to us? Why doesn't he just come down here and solve all of our problems?

Why? Because he wants us to learn to make these decisions for ourselves. If he came down and revealed everything to us, we wouldn't have to exercise any effort on our part. Faith and trust, I believe, is one of the lessons of life which we are being taught.

Take the proposed biblical flood, almost everyone on the earth is disobeying God, and worse then that they won't repent. So what does God do? He floods the earth killing all but 8 people, because they wouldn't follow him.

If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on. By flooding the earth, he allowed us to make a fresh start.

Or take one of the many cases of the Israelites. They are disobeying God, in one case God gets angry and sends fiery serpents to bite and kill the Israelites because they have gone astray. In another case an Israelite is out gather sticks on the sabbath, but God had commanded the Israelites not to do work on the sabbath (I like days off as well to bad God couldn't have made more sabbaths). But any ways this guy made a choice to work on the sabbath and in turn God killed him, for that choice.

Our choices have consequences. Sometimes it takes a long time for us to see the results of our actions, sometimes the result is immediate. Why God chose to give such an immediate consequence to this Israelite, I can only guess. I can assume that he didn't go to hell for such a small act of disobedience - I expect he got a chance to repent and come unto God in the afterlife. But perhaps the reason for this example being included in the Bible is to let people know that there are consequences to our actions, and it is important to obey God's word. Look at the complete context of this chapter in the bible (Numbers 15 bytheway - Slavik, please include references if you know them). In the verses before this incidence, the writer speaks of the difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning 'presumptuously'. This man knew of the consequences and he still made the choice.

Or soddom and Gamorah, two cities, two ungodly cities, God gets angry that they are so ungodly, that they are not following Gods will, so he destroys the two cities. Take the promise land God gives to the Israelites. Did god consult the people he was taking it away from, no. They didn't have a choice, what God wanted he did.

They had a choice to be righteous or to be wicked. They chose wickedness, and the consequence was that they lost the promised land.

That leaves us with two possible modern day conclusions. One of them is that God as recorded in the bible is just an explanation for natural events. Or we are left with an alternative conclusion: Thank God for dead soldiers, thank God for IED's, thank God for September 11, thank God for AIDS. Thank God for every single one of his righteous judgments that he executes upon a rebellious people.

People have free will, and can make conscious choices. There are 'natural' consequences to their actions - example, aids infected fluid gets into your body, you get aids. People make IED's and do all those things, not God. God sometimes gives a consequence, like-in where the earth was flooded, but we bring these consequences upon ourselves.

Take the story of Achan. You see Achan was an Israelite, and when the Israelites with Gods help, destroyed Jericho, Achan did something against God's will, he took goods from the city of Jericho for his own. Now after that, God was angry. So the next time Israel goes on a millitary campaign God ensures that Israelites lose the battle and that a number of people die. After that the Israelites ask God what they did wrong. It boils down to what Achan did. So God tells the Israelites what to do. And what do the Israelites do? They take Achan, They take Achans wife, They take Achans Sons and they Take Achans daughters and they stone them to death, for what Achan has done.

---

Now he did all this, including killing the children of Achan for a sin Achan commited, while at the same time having given the Israelites a law. A law that says Fathers shall not be put to death for the sins of their children, niether Children put to death for the Sins of their fathers.

I don't think this is a contradiction. The entire camp was commanded not to take 'the accursed thing', (Joshua 6:18) so I expect that Achan's family helped him hide it after he stole it. Harsh consequence for stealing? Yes, but God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. For reasons unknown to me, he gave Achan an immediate consequence.

Slavik, I understand that when you were growing up you followed the letter of the law, read the Bible, said your prayers, and went through the motions. It sounds to me like, in action, you did everything right. I'm not here to criticize you or to say that you 'just need to believe'. I'm just here to state what I believe and to explain why I believe it. I stand by the things that I said, and I stand by my religious views. I know that God exists, and I feel that in order to gain this personal testimony it is not enough to engage in scholarly debate. If anyone is going to try to live righteously, they should do it for no one besides themselves and God. We all know the difference between right and wrong--instead of trying to blur that line to get away with things, we need to seek to really try to be our best selves, and not just to look better than our neighbours. Again, Slavik, I'm not saying you did any of this. Whatever you need to do to reconcile yourself with God is always between God and the individual. Sometimes a bishop or friend can help, but the person has to want to build a relationship with God, and they have to want to make improvements in their lives.

I hope you can all approach this matter without an attitude of scoffing or upset. The Gospel is meant to unite people with God and with each other.

[Melanie_]

ClearWest, I can see that you are devout in your belief, and that it serves a purpose for you. But you have presented a simplistic and illogical argument for all of the points listed above, based on the premise that god is mean spirited and vindictive towards those that don't do as he says. Not a selling point in trying to convince others to join in your beliefs, if that is what you intended.

[DarkAngel_]

anyone have a 'event' of belief of god? i could help explain them to you, it wouldn't ruin it i'm sure, like 3 years ago i saw messages in the clouds, how bout you?

also i am asking for any volenteers for research, we all research what we want; present the facts and start from there, come on, it'll be fun!

[Slavik44]

Slavik44,

I didn't say that. Here's what I said:

Why is faith a requirement? Why can't God just show himself to us? Why doesn't he just come down here and solve all of our problems?

Why? Because he wants us to learn to make these decisions for ourselves. If he came down and revealed everything to us, we wouldn't have to exercise any effort on our part. Faith and trust, I believe, is one of the lessons of life which we are being taught.

I never asked god to come down here and solve all our problems, but it is most certainly a reasonable expectation to say that if God wants me to do something he should personally ask me to do it and let me decide. Instead God will not manifest himself to me, but still requires me to believe in him, do what he wants, with out ever prooving to me personally that he is God or what it is he wants me to do. That is most certainly an unreasonable requirement.

If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on. By flooding the earth, he allowed us to make a fresh start.

Well first off apparently 8 people were co-operating with God. So to say everyone was not co-operating with God is blatantly false. Furthermore you imply an extremly incompetent God to suggest that the only/best option available to him was to kill all those who disobeye him. You say he allowed us to make a fresh start, but what he really did was kill many people, multitudes of people for disobeying him. Yet you are telling me God has issues with coming down and discussing problems with us in the name of our own development?

Our choices have consequences. Sometimes it takes a long time for us to see the results of our actions, sometimes the result is immediate. Why God chose to give such an immediate consequence to this Israelite, I can only guess. I can assume that he didn't go to hell for such a small act of disobedience - I expect he got a chance to repent and come unto God in the afterlife. But perhaps the reason for this example being is

included in the Bible is to let people know that there are consequences to our actions, and it is important to obey God's word. Look at the complete context of this chapter in the bible (Numbers 15 bytheway - Slavik, please include references if you know them). In the verses before this incidence, the writer speaks of the difference between sinning in ignorance and sinning 'presumptuously'. This man knew of the consequences and he still made the choice.

They had a choice to be righteous or to be wicked. They chose wickedness, and the consequence was that they lost the promised land.

People have free will, and can make conscious choices. There are 'natural' consequences to their actions - example, aids infected fluid gets into your body, you get aids. People make IED's and do all those things, not God. God sometimes gives a consequence, like-in where the earth was flooded, but we bring these consequences upon ourselves.

If you have a daughter great, if not pretend you do. Say sometime in the future a guy holds a gun to her head and says give me a blow job. Now maybe your daughter decides not to, after all if she did...according to the old testament she would have to marry the guy. So she dies, in

the ensuing Court case the man is let off because your daughter made the choice for herself...it was her fault.

Or take Jonah for example. God asks Jonah to go to ninevah. Jonah says no and tries to run away from God. God sends a storm to stop him, then a fish to swallow him, and the fish only lets Jonah go...after he repents and will go to ninevah. Yet you still insist that God has an objection to comming down to earth, because he is worried about us making a choice or wants us to develop decision making abilities and faith. But no problems with a storm and a huge ass fish to change our minds? No problems with the destruction of the earth to change are minds? no problem with killing people to change our minds? No problem with destroying cities to change our minds? No problem with God taking our land away from us to change our minds? No problem, no issue with God killing millions of people to stand as a symbol to future generations. But somehow a problem with talking? Well atleast we now have definitive proof God is a guy.

I don't think this is a contradiction. The entire camp was commanded not to take 'the accursed thing', (Joshua 6:18) so I expect that Achan's family helped him hide it after he stole it. Harsh consequence for stealing? Yes, but God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. For reasons unknown to me, he gave Achan an immediate consequence.

It is interesting because most Christians argue the Bible is the Complete, Holy, and Literal word of God. If we take the bible as is, right now as being complete and no neccessary additions or inferences to be made, then then not only is the story of Achan a contradiction but more evidence of a sinfull God. If we allow the inference to be made, the addition to be made that Achans whole family (including his livestock) knew about Achan's sin, assumedly we would also have to infere that the soldiers who died in the doomed millitary campaign also knew as well. Any ways if we do that, then we suggest that the bible is incomplete and does not stand on its own.

Slavik, I understand that when you were growing up you followed the letter of the law, read the Bible, said your prayers, and went through the motions. It sounds to me like, in action, you did everything right. I'm not here to criticize you or to say that you 'just need to believe'.

But it seems as though you are willing to imply that those 19 years of my life were simply an automated belief?

I'm just here to state what I believe and to explain why I believe it. I stand by the things that I said, and I stand by my religious views. I know that God exists, and I feel that in order to gain this personal testimony it is not enough to engage in scholarly debate. If anyone is going to try to live righteously, they should do it for no one besides themselves and God.

Well in that case by all means

Can you;

1. Empirically proove to me there is a God?

2. Empirically proove there is only One God (assuming you believe in only one)

3. Empirically proove that it is infact your God?

4. Empirically proove that the holy book(s) associated with your God are in fact divinely inspired?

5. Empirically proove that all events recorded in that holy book actually did happen?

We all know the difference between right and wrong--instead of trying to blur that line to get away with things, we need to seek to really try to be our best selves, and not just to look better than our neighbours. Again, Slavik, I'm not saying you did any of this. Whatever you need to do to reconcile yourself with God is always between God and the individual. Sometimes a bishop or friend can help, but the person has to want to build a relationship with God, and they have to want to make improvements in their lives.

I hope you can all approach this matter without an attitude of scoffing or upset. The Gospel is meant to unite people with God and with each other.

It is all a question of evidence, for me, with out evidence it is impossible to believe him.

[ClearWest]

I never asked god to come down here and solve all our problems, but it is most certainly a reasonable expectation to say that if God wants me to do something he should personally ask me to do it and let me decide. Instead God will not manifest himself to me, but still requires me to believe in him, do what he wants, with out ever prooving to me personally that he is God or what it is he wants me to do. That is most certainly an unreasonable requirement.

One of the things that he wants us to do is to believe in him. That is one of the things that he expects, one of the problems that we've already established that he isn't going to solve for us. He wants us to exercise the faith, and then he will reveal himself to us - this has happened throughout history, often in small ways, sometimes in big.

If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on. By flooding the earth, he allowed us to make a fresh start.

Well first off apparently 8 people were co-operating with God. So to say everyone was not co-operating with God is blatantly false.

I didn't say that. What I said was simply: "If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on." I don't mind restating it to be more clear: If everyone in the world (everyone but eight people, in the case of Noah's Ark) isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on.

Furthermore you imply an extremly incompetent God to suggest that the only/best option available to him was to kill all those who disobeye him.

What are the other options? Let the world continue in wickedness, thus accomplishing nothing and leading billions upon billions of souls to damnation? God's children cannot progress eternally in a world where wickedness prevails. God had to create a chance for future generations to choose righteousness - the wickedness of the people in that day made that very unlikely. Remember, God sees the big picture.

Or, are you suggesting that he is 'incompetent' for letting us get that far to begin with? The only alternative to letting us have a choice between right and wrong is to make that decision for us. And that wouldn't allow us to learn and progress.

If you have a daughter great, if not pretend you do. Say sometime in the future a guy holds a gun to her head and says give me a blow job. Now maybe your daughter decides not to, after all if she did...according to the old testament she would have to marry the guy. So she dies, in

the ensuing Court case the man is let off because your daughter made the choice for herself...it was her fault.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The man still murdered her. I think most courts of law would convict him of murder.

Or take Jonah for example. God asks Jonah to go to ninevah. Jonah says no and tries to run away from God. God sends a storm to stop him, then a fish to swallow him, and the fish only lets Jonah go...after he repents and will go to ninevah. Yet you still insist that God has an objection to comming down to earth, because he is worried about us making a choice or wants us to develop decision making abilities and faith. But no problems with a storm and a huge ass fish to change our minds? No problems with the destruction of the earth to change are minds? no problem with killing people to change our minds? No problem with destroying cities to change our minds? No problem with God taking our land away from us to change our minds? No problem, no issue with God killing millions of people to stand as a symbol to future generations. But somehow a problem with talking? Well atleast we now have definitive proof God is a guy.

God has had to direct his people - if there is a big work that he has to get accomplished, he clearly doesn't object to taking big steps to accomplish it. These events usually involved the welfare of a great number of souls.

I don't think God has a problem with talking - I believe he has spoken to prophets throughout history, and they have passed his guidance on to us. You sound very bitter that God hasn't personally appeared to you. God confirms himself in many different ways, big and small. However, God won't send thunder and lightning... when a still small voice is enough. God wants to give us all a chance to come unto him by our own will.

Again, in some cases God has had a hand in events, in other cases he has let us decide for ourselves. It's not like there's a 'God-rule' that says he has to either control everybody's lives or not do anything at all. I think there is a fair balance of those things. He wants to let us decide first, but he will step in if the need is there.

It is interesting because most Christians argue the Bible is the Complete, Holy, and Literal word of God. If we take the bible as is, right now as being complete and no neccessary additions or inferences to be made, then then not only is the story of Achan a contradiction but more evidence of a sinfull God. If we allow the inference to be made, the addition to be made that Achans whole family (including his livestock) knew about Achan's sin, assumedly we would also have to infere that the soldiers who died in the doomed millitary campaign also knew as well. Any ways if we do that, then we suggest that the bible is incomplete and does not stand on its own.

The Bible has been rewritten, revised, translated, and compiled in different orders many many times since it was first written. I believe the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

I'm just here to state what I believe and to explain why I believe it. I stand by the things that I said, and I stand by my religious views. I know that God exists, and I feel that in order to gain this personal testimony it is not enough to engage in scholarly debate. If anyone is going to try to live righteously, they should do it for no one besides themselves and God.

Well in that case by all means

Can you;

1. Empirically proove to me there is a God?

2. Empirically proove there is only One God (assuming you believe in only one)

3. Empirically proove that it is infact your God?

4. Empirically proove that the holy book(s) associated with your God are in fact divinely inspired?

5. Empirically proove that all events recorded in that holy book actually did happen?

I never said I could empirically prove anything. I'm sorry if that's a disappointment for you, but I don't think it works that way.

I can, however, offer the following insight:

--What is required: Hebrews 11

--An example of a small, but powerful, sign of confirmation from God: Luke 24:32

--Again, what we can do: Matthew 16:25

--and one of my favourites (because it helped me very much in my spiritual pursuit), how to know: John 7:17

We all know the difference between right and wrong--instead of trying to blur that line to get away with things, we need to seek to really try to be our best selves, and not just to look better than our neighbours. Again, Slavik, I'm not saying you did any of this. Whatever you need to do to reconcile yourself with God is always between God and the individual. Sometimes a bishop or friend can help, but the person has to want to build a relationship with God, and they have to want to make improvements in their lives.

I hope you can all approach this matter without an attitude of scoffing or upset. The Gospel is meant to unite people with God and with each other.

It is all a question of evidence, for me, with out evidence it is impossible to believe him.

I don't know all things, and I don't know why it has to be this way. But I know that God knows... if someone were to ask him, I'm sure he would not withold his truth from them. (James 1:5.)

I don't want this conversation to be an ongoing battle. I respect that you have great doubts about these things, and I don't want to push it. I also admit that I don't know everything about the Bible, and I too am confused by some of its content, so it would be pointless for me to continue debating about it. However, I believe in God, and I believe that he wants what is best for us. I know this from reading the scriptures and applying the teachings to my life, and praying about it. Anyone who is on the fence about this issue, (or anyone in general) I encourage you to read the scriptures I listed here. They were an inspiration to me, and I hope they can help you out in a time of need. Best wishes.

[reffric]

I couldn't imagine spending my life thinking it was a test to see if I pass or not.

[ClearWest]

I couldn't imagine spending my life thinking it was a test to see if I pass or not.

To me, it's more of a learning and growing experience. A time of personal progress, becoming the kind of person that God wants you to be, and achieving long-term happiness, eventually eternal happiness.

[reffric]

To me, it's more of a learning and growing experience. A time of personal progress, becoming the kind of person that God wants you to be, and achieving long-term happiness, eventually eternal happiness.

Call it what you want. You don't follow the rules, you don't play the game the way you are told, you don't pass. Long term happiness can be achieved without the need of rules.

[Slavik44]

One of the things that he wants us to do is to believe in him. That is one of the things that he expects, one of the problems that we've already established that he isn't going to solve for us. He wants us to exercise the faith, and then he will reveal himself to us - this has happened throughout history, often in small ways, sometimes in big.

The excersize of faith, is something that is not contingent on Evidence, it is contigent on meerly acceptance. There are however, more then one claimed God, often groups or families of Gods. Do I believe them all? Do I just ha ve faith? When you understand why you don't recognize 99.9999999*% of all Gods recorded by mankind you will recognize why I simply bump it up to 100%.

I didn't say that. What I said was simply: "If everyone in the world isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on." I don't mind restating it to be more clear: If everyone in the world (everyone but eight people, in the case of Noah's Ark) isn't cooperating with God's plan, then God's work can't go on.

So God is incapable of working with only an army of 8? So not only is he a jerk, but highly un charismatic. I mean Hitler was the 55th member of the Nazi party and he could take over a country and almost win a war against the world. But God couldn't do it with 8? No offense but your God isn't sounding all that competent. As well looking at the recent numbers if he were to call an election, he would be forced to form a coalition government, given his "I am the way" attitude he may have trouble forming maintaining power. Perhaps just another Joe Clark.

What are the other options? Let the world continue in wickedness, thus accomplishing nothing and leading billions upon billions of souls to damnation? God's children cannot progress eternally in a world where wickedness prevails. God had to create a chance for future generations to choose righteousness - the wickedness of the people in that day made that very unlikely. Remember, God sees the big picture.

Hey I ain't the one who has a book that lectures his followers on how faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, but at the same time un-willing to work with 8 people who poses faith, to make right the world.

Or, are you suggesting that he is 'incompetent' for letting us get that far to begin with? The only alternative to letting us have a choice between right and wrong is to make that decision for us. And that wouldn't allow us to learn and progress.

No now you are just further suggesting that he is an incompetent planer, he had infinity to come up with a plan and only two alternatives, very shitty ones at that, presented themselves. When I can think of more in ten seconds that would not violate my ability to choose any more so then Gods actions in the old testament.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The man still murdered her. I think most courts of law would convict him of murder.

Likewise most courts of law would convict God of Murder.

God has had to direct his people - if there is a big work that he has to get accomplished, he clearly doesn't object to taking big steps to accomplish it. These events usually involved the welfare of a great number of souls.

I don't think God has a problem with talking - I believe he has spoken to prophets throughout history, and they have passed his guidance on to us. You sound very bitter that God hasn't personally appeared to you. God confirms himself in many different ways, big and small. However, God won't send thunder and lightning... when a still small voice is enough. God wants to give us all a chance to come unto him by our own will.

Again, in some cases God has had a hand in events, in other cases he has let us decide for ourselves. It's not like there's a 'God-rule' that says he has to either control everybody's lives or not do anything at all. I think there is a fair balance of those things. He wants to let us decide first, but he will step in if the need is there.

I doubt we are going to get very far, I believe God needs to be reasonable and come down and personally talk with us OFTEN outlining what he wants, and expects us to do it. You on the other hand, seem to belive that every now and then God sends a huge fish or destroys the world to accomplish the same thing that talking could. Personally spending eternity with such a person sounds like hell.

The Bible has been rewritten, revised, translated, and compiled in different orders many many times since it was first written. I believe the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

Okay so is the bible incomplete in the matter dealing with Achan or is it fullly complete and in contradiction?

I never said I could empirically prove anything. I'm sorry if that's a disappointment for you, but I don't think it works that way.

No, I expected it would come down to faith, but faith is a highly unreasonable request that even under the best of circumstances 7/10 times results in you being mislead.

I can, however, offer the following insight:

--What is required: Hebrews 11

--An example of a small, but powerful, sign of confirmation from God: Luke 24:32

--Again, what we can do: Matthew 16:25

--and one of my favourites (because it helped me very much in my spiritual pursuit), how to know: John 7:17

All them I find to be un-provable claims contingent on Faith. Faith is Useless it is why there are 2 Billion Christians, 1.5 Billion Muslims, 1 Billions Hindu's, an assortment of religions with 300 million followers each, and an assortment below that adding probabley another 200 million. And then within almost every religion, there are sects and denominations that each believe something different, or split on a number of major fundemental issues. All these people have some faith, many of these people do give their lives to their God/gods. With out evidence faith is an unreasonable requirement that leads to a widley divergent number of religions each claiming to have the truth, each requiring faith, and offering little in the way of evidence. All believing they got it right, all armed with their faith.

I don't know all things, and I don't know why it has to be this way. But I know that God knows... if someone were to ask him, I'm sure he would not withold his truth from them. (James 1:5.)

I spent many years asking him for it.