Is Stephane Dion also a citizen of France

[Drea]

/open sarcastic rant

I don't know 'bout you guys but when I picked MY mother I made darn sure she was from Canada! How dare Dion have a mother who was not born in this country! Shame on him.

It's not like Dion went over to France and got a citizenship. It's not like he was born there (and so what even if he was).

Anyone here on the board have a mother or father who was NOT born in Canada?

GET OUT!

You don't belong here. Only born and bred Canadians (5th or 6th generation?) should be allowed to be here. All you others are dirty rotten immigrants.

/end sarcastic rant

[JerrySeinfeld]

How does one's legal status as a citizen pretain to one's personal loyalty?

I agree - so why don't you get it over with already and nominate Michael Moore for PM?

[Leafless]

Dual citizen, reformed Pequiste. Hmm.

A five hour rum and coke discussion apparently ended his flirtations with the 'Parti Quebecois', APPARENTLY.

But the question to be asked is: What party, oh ok, but were his feelings still the same after the booze wore off. Sounds like he was quite the rocker type, each evening with his dad, z-z-z-z-z-z-z.

As a teenager, he flirted with the sovereignty movement, campaigning for the Parti Québécois.[2] Stéphane described the experience as follows:

"Because the party was there... I wanted to challenge my dad... the way to become an adult sometimes is to say the contrary to your father. Each evening, I would try out a new argument I had heard on the separatist network and my father was demolishing it... My father very quietly and very respectfully was refuting me, without insulting me."[2]

Dion has said that his flirtation with the sovereignty movement ended during a five-hour, rum-and-coke fueled discussion with a federalist household while he was going door-to-door for the PQ. Journalist Linda Diebel believes that his flirtation ended gradually, as he completed his university studies and embarked on an academic career in public administration."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9phane_Dion

[geoffrey]

geoffery

His ONLY concern should be Canada if he's in a position to replace the PM. Bottom line.

He needs to revoke his French citizenship. Why have it?

Why have it? Because he was born with it?

What difference does it make?

Did Ted Morton renounce his U.S. citizenship?

I'm not sure if he did or not, but he should before assuming public office. I think you have to renounce your previous citizenships, don't you, before taking a Canadian one. I don't think you can just run around collecting citizenships.

How does one's legal status as a citizen pretain to one's personal loyalty?

Dion has an implied oath of loyalty to France. Any international dealings with France can't be considered arms length.

[Charles Anthony]

Dion has an implied oath of loyalty to France. Any international dealings with France can't be considered arms length.

This sounds like a boogeyman. What exactly do you fear?

What is the worst that could happen if we have a Prime Minister who is a citizen of an other country?

Maybe it would be a good thing.

[Wilber]

It's not like Dion went over to France and got a citizenship. It's not like he was born there (and so what even if he was).

Anyone here on the board have a mother or father who was NOT born in Canada?

GET OUT!

You don't belong here. Only born and bred Canadians (5th or 6th generation?) should be allowed to be here. All you others are dirty rotten immigrants.

How does that work? My father was born a Canadian and my mother was English. I was born a couple of months after she arrived in Canada but if I wanted British citizenship, I would have to apply for it. I imagine I could get it but I didn't just automatically have it because my mother was a British citizen when I was born.

[Black Dog]

I'm not sure if he did or not, but he should before assuming public office. I think you have to renounce your previous citizenships, don't you, before taking a Canadian one. I don't think you can just run around collecting citizenships.

Again: Dion was a dual citizen at birth.

I'm going to scratch that. My reading leads me to belive that rules on dual citizenship were a lot tighter before 1977. So it's possible Dion assumed French citizenship later, possiby when he went to France to recieve his doctorate. But that's not an uncommon practice, as it's easier to work and study abroad a sa citizen of the country you are working and studying in. I know quite a few people who've taken dual citizenship to avoid messing about with work or student visas. Either way: the colour of one's passport is not a measure of personal loyalty.

Dion has an implied oath of loyalty to France. Any international dealings with France can't be considered arms length.

Have you ever taken a oath of loyalty to Canada? I'm was born here and never have.

Citizenship denotes nationality only: where the individuals' loyalties lie is up to the individual and casting aspersions on an individuals' loyalty based on their legal status is quite unseemly. Why, you yourself, geoffery claim to be a "Alberta nationalist" but were you even born here? And wait: didn't you say you spent a good chunk of time in...Ontario? I'm sorry comrade, but your Alberta nationalist credentials are severely imperiled...

[Leafless]

Dual citizenship has serious implications concerning loyalty.

If Mr. Dion says he is loyal to Canada, what about France is he loyal or disloyal to that country?

If he was disloyal to France being a Canadian then there would be no reason why he should not denounce his citizenship with France.

But if he is loyal to France for whatever reason or reasons this would or could make him untrue or treacherous to his allegiance with Canada for possible specific unknown reasons, known only to Mr.Dion.

IMO Mr. Dion has no other OPTION than to RENOUNCE HIS FRENCH CITIZENSHIP or be viewed as a frivolous politician that could even endanger Canada if the proper issue and set of circumstances ever developed by using biased flawed personal logic pertaining to his decision concerning a volatile issue.

Perhaps unfortunately, this type of rational could be extended to any Quebecer occupying a federal position as Quebec's nationalism is paramount over Canadian nationalism.

[Charles Anthony]

Dual citizenship has serious implications concerning loyalty.

How?

Many Canadians have dual citizenship now.

Many Canadians never made an oath of allegiance to Canada.

IMO Mr. Dion has no other OPTION than to RENOUNCE HIS FRENCH CITIZENSHIP or be viewed as a frivolous politician that could even endanger Canada if the proper issue and set of circumstances ever developed by using biased flawed personal logic pertaining to his decision concerning a volatile issue.

Like what issue? Wine imports?

[Black Dog]

Perhaps unfortunately, this type of rational could be extended to any Quebecer occupying a federal position as Quebec's nationalism is paramount over Canadian nationalism.

What about a foreign-born Alberta nationalist occupying a seat in the provincial legislature and who has in the past served as an adviser to the current Prime Minister of the country?

Oh and it's "renounce" not "denounce."

[Wilber]

I doubt it would have any bearing on his loyalty to Canada but the optics ain't great and you have to expect his opponents to try and exploit that. You can bet the Liberals would if the shoe was on the other foot. If it was dual US citizenship, they would be yelling it from the roof tops.

[Leafless]

Dual citizenship has serious implications concerning loyalty.

How?

Many Canadians have dual citizenship now.

Many Canadians never made an oath of allegiance to Canada.

IMO Mr. Dion has no other OPTION than to RENOUNCE HIS FRENCH CITIZENSHIP or be viewed as a frivolous politician that could even endanger Canada if the proper issue and set of circumstances ever developed by using biased flawed personal logic pertaining to his decision concerning a volatile issue.

Like what issue? Wine imports?

Many Canadians do have dual citizenship and look what happened when Canada rescued them:" Some 40,000 Canadians were registered with the embassy in Lebanon when the war broke out in July, and Ottawa estimates it spent more than $85 million to evacuate about 15,000 of them to Canada, according to an official in Foreign Affairs who gave what was described as a preliminary estimate. Reports suggest 7,000 evacuees have since returned to Lebanon."

You don't view this as serious.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/stor...7390521d&k=5021

Mr. Dion by virtue of being a French Quebecer and citizen of France, could by nature, be MORE inclined to cater to to Quebec's nationalistic and domestic issue's which is serious, since Quebecers view their province has a 'country' and Mr. Dion could very well to.

[Black Dog]

Many Canadians do have dual citizenship and look what happened when Canada rescued them:" Some 40,000 Canadians were registered with the embassy in Lebanon when the war broke out in July, and Ottawa estimates it spent more than $85 million to evacuate about 15,000 of them to Canada, according to an official in Foreign Affairs who gave what was described as a preliminary estimate. Reports suggest 7,000 evacuees have since returned to Lebanon."

You don't view this as serious.

I don't view it as relevant. Come back to me when it comes time to evacuate Stephane Dion.

Mr. Dion by virtue of being a French Quebecer and citizen of France, could by nature, be MORE inclined to cater to to Quebec's nationalistic and domestic issue's which is serious, since Quebecers view their province has a 'country' and Mr. Dion could very well to.

Why would his status as a citizen of France make him more inclined to support Quebec nationalism than his status as a lifelong Quebecer? Keep in mind, this is a guy who has worked against Quebec nationalism for most of his political career, which is thought to severly impede his electoral chances in his own home province. Or do you expect us to believe that now that this dark secret has emerged, he's going to whip out his French passport, slap on a beret and stripey shirt, fire up a Gauloise and say (in comical French villain accent) "Oh ho ho! Stoopid anglais!! I waz only pretending to be ze Canadian nationalizt! Now zat you know ze zecret of my citizenship I can proceed with my plans to unify Quebec and France and make Saddam Hussein Prime Minister of Canada! Vive le Quebec! Vive le France!"

Or something.

[Argus]

Who cares about what other countries he is a citizen of? People shouldn't have to renounce other citizenships because their loyalty might be in question in public life.

Wouldn't it be funny if he got elected prime minister, and he visited France, and they arrested him for dodging the draft and forced him into the army?

Yes, I know France ended the draft a few years ago, but it points out just what expectations there are of citizens, regardless of where they live.

Suppose we have a disagreement with France along the lines of the one the Brits had with Iceland over cod fishing, or the one we nearly had with the Spanish. Do we want a PM who is a citizen of the other side?

If Dion is in the PM's office, does he put a flag of France behind the desk along with one of Canada?

When he visits France does he shake hands with the President and say "I voted for you, sir!"

Don't be silly. Dion has to renounce his citizenship.

[jdobbin]

Dual citizen, reformed Pequiste. Hmm.

And Harper was a Liberal once. Hmm.

[FTA Lawyer]

Who cares about what other countries he is a citizen of? People shouldn't have to renounce other citizenships because their loyalty might be in question in public life.

Wouldn't it be funny if he got elected prime minister, and he visited France, and they arrested him for dodging the draft and forced him into the army?

Yes, I know France ended the draft a few years ago, but it points out just what expectations there are of citizens, regardless of where they live.

Suppose we have a disagreement with France along the lines of the one the Brits had with Iceland over cod fishing, or the one we nearly had with the Spanish. Do we want a PM who is a citizen of the other side?

If Dion is in the PM's office, does he put a flag of France behind the desk along with one of Canada?

When he visits France does he shake hands with the President and say "I voted for you, sir!"

Don't be silly. Dion has to renounce his citizenship.

I tend to agree with this assessment.

I take Argus' comments as being light-hearted in the sense that he doesn't expect Dion to start committing espionage on Parliament Hill in favour of France (i.e. this isn't an issue that should carry the kind of outrage that Ezra Levant would like it to) but, it remains a legitimate issue.

Citizenship does by definition import certain rights and responsibilities. By moving up in public life to the position of leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, Dion does specifically take an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada which is necessarily at odds with being a citizen of another country.

Sometimes issues like this seem meaningless, but if taken down the proverbial "slippery slope" we see why we ought not to start bending the rules. If a dual citizen can be Opposition Leader, or even PM, then why not a non-citizen?

Really, someone using the argument like Black Dog (that the colour of your passport does not determine your loyalty, therefore, dual citizenship matters not for someone governing the country) would have to logically accept then that a non-citizen can be 100% loyal to Canada, and therefore, should be permitted to be PM.

Of course, then we'd have a PM who couldn't vote for PM and could be deported from the country...which would be rather hard to reconcile...wouldn't it? Should we then start amending all of the laws which have citizenship elements to them?

My point, if I've now obscured it, is that citizenship is more than the colour of a passport...even if you don't see it as an expression of your loyalty...it has legal significance, and inextricable rights and responsibilities.

You ought not be a Canadian government leader and maintain your non-Canadian citizenship.

FTA

P.S. - Just found this article, which does a much better job of conveying my point.

National Post

[Wilber]

Dual citizen, reformed Pequiste. Hmm.

And Harper was a Liberal once. Hmm.

jdobbin, are you a closet separatist?

[jdobbin]

jdobbin, are you a closet separatist?

No, but Harper has argued for a firewall for Alberta in the past.

[Wilber]

Just wondering what Pequists and Liberals had in common.

[Black Dog]

Yes, I know France ended the draft a few years ago, but it points out just what expectations there are of citizens, regardless of where they live.

Suppose we have a disagreement with France along the lines of the one the Brits had with Iceland over cod fishing, or the one we nearly had with the Spanish. Do we want a PM who is a citizen of the other side?

chortle chortle. Again: citizenship is not an indicator of loyalty. Look at the Khadr family.

Don't be silly.

You first.

Dion has to renounce his citizenship.

Unless there is a law we're not aware of that stipulates the leader of a political party (or PM ) must be a Canadian citizen only, he does not.

Citizenship does by definition import certain rights and responsibilities. By moving up in public life to the position of leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, Dion does specifically take an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada which is necessarily at odds with being a citizen of another country.

I disagree. ANy oath to serve HRH would, IMV, supersede paper citizenship of another nation.

Really, someone using the argument like Black Dog (that the colour of your passport does not determine your loyalty, therefore, dual citizenship matters not for someone governing the country) would have to logically accept then that a non-citizen can be 100% loyal to Canada, and therefore, should be permitted to be PM.

A non-citizen could be 100 per cent loyal to Canada. I've seen many Albertans on this board who are probnaly less loyal to Canada than many non-citizens. As to whether they could serve as PM, loyalty (and how does one measure that?) doesn't enter into it. Yeah, we have certain legal critirea that limit who can and cannot serve. Yet we also, legally, allow citizens to hold dual citizenship, which would indicate that dual coitizenship is, in the eyes of the law, a non-issue.

My point, if I've now obscured it, is that citizenship is more than the colour of a passport...even if you don't see it as an expression of your loyalty...it has legal significance, and inextricable rights and responsibilities.

Sure. If one's leagl responsibilities as a citizen of another country conflict with one's ability to serve Canada (and that's not the argument being made, but let's roll with it; yours is much better) then one should give up the other citizenship. If they do not (and unless dion is facing conscription or jury duty, I can't see how they would) then giving it up would be a empty gesture. And I'm not big on empty gestures. I find them...empty.

[Leafless]

Perhaps unfortunately, this type of rational could be extended to any Quebecer occupying a federal position as Quebec's nationalism is paramount over Canadian nationalism.

What about a foreign-born Alberta nationalist occupying a seat in the provincial legislature and who has in the past served as an adviser to the current Prime Minister of the country?

Oh and it's "renounce" not "denounce."

That was a typo. Further down you will clearly see 'renounce', sir.

BTW- It should be 'Oh,' with a comma, sir.

[reffric]

There are currently 700,000 people living in Canada who have dual citizenship. That is one for alomst every 45 people. Roughly 2% of the population.

If having dual citizenship does not make you loyal to your country, then I suggest you have a whole lot of people who need a phone call.

Should we just state right now that none of these people are eligible to hold a public office?

[FTA Lawyer]

There are currently 700,000 people living in Canada who have dual citizenship. That is one for alomst every 45 people. Roughly 2% of the population.

If having dual citizenship does not make you loyal to your country, then I suggest you have a whole lot of people who need a phone call.

Should we just state right now that none of these people are eligible to hold a public office?

There's a difference between being a school board trustee and the Opposition Leader or Prime Minister, No?

[FTA Lawyer]

Sure. If one's leagl responsibilities as a citizen of another country conflict with one's ability to serve Canada (and that's not the argument being made, but let's roll with it; yours is much better) then one should give up the other citizenship. If they do not (and unless dion is facing conscription or jury duty, I can't see how they would) then giving it up would be a empty gesture. And I'm not big on empty gestures. I find them...empty.

Well, if you are 100% loyal to Canada as Leader of the Opposition or PM, then isn't keeping your other citizenship an empty gesture?

Here's a snip from the Post article I linked above:

After all, here in Canada we do trust Mr. Dion’s assurances that his loyalty “is 100% to Canada first.” Few could say they have expended more energy in fighting intellectually for the existence and value of the Canadian federation. But look at the matter from the perspective of France. If Canada really has 100% of Dion’s loyalty, how much is left for his other country? The math is not difficult.

It’s insulting and hypocritical for the opposition leader to insist upon his right to enter France, live and work there, partake of its public services, and seek the protection of its laws — but to directly imply, on the other hand, that he feels no special attachment to it, is not required to consider its interests, and will not defend it.

What say you to that?

[guyser]

Here's a snip from the Post article I linked above:

After all, here in Canada we do trust Mr. Dion’s assurances that his loyalty “is 100% to Canada first.” Few could say they have expended more energy in fighting intellectually for the existence and value of the Canadian federation. But look at the matter from the perspective of France. If Canada really has 100% of Dion’s loyalty, how much is left for his other country? The math is not difficult.

It’s insulting and hypocritical for the opposition leader to insist upon his right to enter France, live and work there, partake of its public services, and seek the protection of its laws — but to directly imply, on the other hand, that he feels no special attachment to it, is not required to consider its interests, and will not defend it.

What say you to that?

I am surpsied by your stance here FTA. I did not expect your position would be against Mr Dion.

From what I gather, Mr Dion has kept and will keep his french citizenship as he has business pursuits in France. He will not be in politics his whole life, and as a furtherance to his career he is keeping it. Afterall it does make his travel easier.

I understand some of this kerfuffle, buit it does seem much ado about nothing.

His loyalties have been proven. He fought against Quebec in the Ref. Has he been laying in wait all this time for an opportunity to screw Canada (not directed at anyone on her)