Black Dog Posted December 7, 2006 Report Posted December 7, 2006 Well, if you are 100% loyal to Canada as Leader of the Opposition or PM, then isn't keeping your other citizenship an empty gesture? Not if you belive, as I do, that loyalty and citizenship are unrrelated concepts. Here's a snip from the Post article I linked above: Izzat you again Ezra? Post: "Indeed, many Canadians, Euro-leaning Quebecers in particular, no doubt see multiple citizenship as a badge of cosmopolitain sophistication in a globalized world." O.G Ezra: "Perhaps, in Quebec, French citizenship is a sign of cosmopolitan worldliness..." But I digress... It’s insulting and hypocritical for the opposition leader to insist upon his right to enter France, live and work there, partake of its public services, and seek the protection of its laws — but to directly imply, on the other hand, that he feels no special attachment to it, is not required to consider its interests, and will not defend it. So, this is really about symbolism. There's no practical reason for Dion to renounce his French citizenship, then? Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Argus Posted December 7, 2006 Report Posted December 7, 2006 Well, if you are 100% loyal to Canada as Leader of the Opposition or PM, then isn't keeping your other citizenship an empty gesture? Not if you belive, as I do, that loyalty and citizenship are unrrelated concepts. In effect, Dion is claiming he is like those Lebanese "canadians" who live in Lebanon, but have no particular interest or afinity for Canada - except when they need us. Dion claims to have no loyalty to France, would never consider its interests in any matter under dispute, would not fight for them, nor aid them in any way. Yet he wants to claim his French citizenship. Why would the French NOT be insulted by such a man? I know I am by those who possess Canadian citizenship without any intention of living up to any aspect of the responsibilities of that citizenship. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Charles Anthony Posted December 7, 2006 Report Posted December 7, 2006 It’s insulting and hypocritical for the opposition leader to insist upon his right to enter France, live and work there, partake of its public services, and seek the protection of its laws — but to directly imply, on the other hand, that he feels no special attachment to it, is not required to consider its interests, and will not defend it.What say you to that?I say that it matters not unless we can objectively define a line that divides the office of the Prime Minister from the tax-payer -- each of whom may potentially have dual-citizenship. How high up the bureaucratic scale should dual citizenship be out-lawed and why? This reminds me of King Lear's youngest daughter who wonders how her sisters can love their husbands and at the same time say they love their father with all of their hearts. Maybe it is foolish to think of patriotism as a fixed pie. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
reffric Posted December 7, 2006 Report Posted December 7, 2006 There are currently 700,000 people living in Canada who have dual citizenship. That is one for alomst every 45 people. Roughly 2% of the population. If having dual citizenship does not make you loyal to your country, then I suggest you have a whole lot of people who need a phone call. Should we just state right now that none of these people are eligible to hold a public office? There's a difference between being a school board trustee and the Opposition Leader or Prime Minister, No? Sure there is, in terms of job description, but not who you should be loyal to. Quote
Black Dog Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 Why would the French NOT be insulted by such a man? I know I am by those who possess Canadian citizenship without any intention of living up to any aspect of the responsibilities of that citizenship. I like how quickly the "what about the French?" line has been absorbed. If I was French, I'd be more insulted by the implied link between French citizenship and disloyalty* as well as the other ten billion, you know, actual insults directed at my country over the past three years by the same people suddenly expressing such deep concern for my emotional well-being. *I can pretty much guarantee if he had dual citizenship with, say, Great Britain or the United States, lil' Ezra wouldn't even bat an eye. It's only an issue 'cause it's them damn "Surrender Monkeys ". Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Argus Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 Why would the French NOT be insulted by such a man? I know I am by those who possess Canadian citizenship without any intention of living up to any aspect of the responsibilities of that citizenship. I like how quickly the "what about the French?" line has been absorbed. I don't give a crap about whether the French are insulted or not. I'm pointing out what kind of a disloyal creep Dion is to them as an indication of his lack of honour and integrity. A man of honour and integrity would not say "I want to remain a citizen of X even though I have no love or affection in it, would never consider its interests or well-being in decisions I make, and would certainly go against it if it was opposed to my REAL country." Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 I don't give a crap about whether the French are insulted or not. I'm pointing out what kind of a disloyal creep Dion is to them as an indication of his lack of honour and integrity. A man of honour and integrity would not say "I want to remain a citizen of X even though I have no love or affection in it, would never consider its interests or well-being in decisions I make, and would certainly go against it if it was opposed to my REAL country." It'd be a greater act of disloyalty to discard one's citizenship. Again your argument rests on the fallacious equivilance between loyalty and legal status. Those of us capable of holding more than one thought at a time can easily conceive of the capability of respecting a country of which you are a legal citizen and having affection for it, yet still putting the interests and well-being of the country you lead first and foremost. Was it here or elsewhere that someone mentioned the same type of arguments were used against JFK with regard to his Catholicism? Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
jdobbin Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 I don't give a crap about whether the French are insulted or not. I'm pointing out what kind of a disloyal creep Dion is to them as an indication of his lack of honour and integrity. A man of honour and integrity would not say "I want to remain a citizen of X even though I have no love or affection in it, would never consider its interests or well-being in decisions I make, and would certainly go against it if it was opposed to my REAL country." No one shouted about Turner's citizenship. I think it is a mountain over a mole hill. I can't imagine it is getting much attention outside of this forum. Quote
Wilber Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 It'd be a greater act of disloyalty to discard one's citizenship. How so? One may have a greater loyalty's such as family, friends etc but if one has no loyalty they do not deserve citizenship. How can you in good faith call yourself a citizen of a country if you have no loyalty to that country? One must assume that Dion has some loyalty to France because he keeps his citizenship. Whether that compromises him as head if the Government of Canada is another question. My guess is most would think that is unlikely (me included) but the question will always be there as long as he maintains that citizenship because until it is put to a severe enough test, no one will know for sure. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Black Dog Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 I was taking the piss, Wilber. I've already stated several times that citizenship and loyalty are more or less unrelated. Should thrown in a stupid smiley, I guess. Here: Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
Wilber Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 No one shouted about Turner's citizenship. I think it is a mountain over a mole hill. I can't imagine it is getting much attention outside of this forum. Turner was born in England and his parents immigrated, he didn't dabble in separatism in his earlier days or come from a province that is continually holding that axe over the rest of the country. Fair or not it is a political liability for Dion. Who knows if it is a serious one. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
jdobbin Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 Turner was born in England and his parents immigrated, he didn't dabble in separatism in his earlier days or come from a province that is continually holding that axe over the rest of the country. Fair or not it is a political liability for Dion. Who knows if it is a serious one. If it does become an issue, I'm sure he would give it up. Who in the Conservative party is going to make it an issue? Or is it going to be a sleazy whisper campaign? Quote
Wilber Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 Turner was born in England and his parents immigrated, he didn't dabble in separatism in his earlier days or come from a province that is continually holding that axe over the rest of the country. Fair or not it is a political liability for Dion. Who knows if it is a serious one. If it does become an issue, I'm sure he would give it up. Who in the Conservative party is going to make it an issue? Or is it going to be a sleazy whisper campaign? If it is an issue with people, it is an issue, if not, it's not. It will be with some but not others. It won't get him any votes but it could and probably will cost him some. How many? Who knows. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Black Dog Posted December 8, 2006 Report Posted December 8, 2006 If it is an issue with people, it is an issue, if not, it's not. It will be with some but not others. It won't get him any votes but it could and probably will cost him some. How many? Who knows. If this thread is any indication, the people for whom this is an issue are the same people who wouldn't vote for Dion in a million billion years anyway. So there ya go. Quote "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit
jdobbin Posted December 9, 2006 Report Posted December 9, 2006 If it is an issue with people, it is an issue, if not, it's not. It will be with some but not others. It won't get him any votes but it could and probably will cost him some. How many? Who knows. I'm sure if we hear about this after Christmas, we might see him drop the French citizenship. Until then, it is criticism from people who would never vote Liberal anyway. Quote
Wilber Posted December 9, 2006 Report Posted December 9, 2006 If it is an issue with people, it is an issue, if not, it's not. It will be with some but not others. It won't get him any votes but it could and probably will cost him some. How many? Who knows. I'm sure if we hear about this after Christmas, we might see him drop the French citizenship. Until then, it is criticism from people who would never vote Liberal anyway. Of course it won't effect the way those who are commited vote. I'm just saying it will stick in some peoples minds an might make them go mini instead of mo when they vote. It's not a plus and if it has an effect, it will be a negative one. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
jdobbin Posted December 9, 2006 Report Posted December 9, 2006 Of course it won't effect the way those who are commited vote. I'm just saying it will stick in some peoples minds an might make them go mini instead of mo when they vote. It's not a plus and if it has an effect, it will be a negative one. I'm sure the majority of Canadians will have no idea about it come election time. And whoa to the Conservative who raises the dual citizenship bugaboo in the election. Quote
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