Dion wins

[Charles Anthony]

In other words you don't want a government running this country, you want a national social agency, AKA COMMUNISM.

Me, personally, no. That is not what I want.

I am saying what I believe the rest-of-Canadians want and the demands they place on their federal government.

[bk59]

He was a top Chretien loyalist. I have zero doubt he knew everything about the sponsorship system, and I think most people will believe the same.

I do enjoy this particular viewpoint. After everything that happened with the investigation of the sponsorship scandal and the Gomery report, Dion's name was not linked to the scandal in any way. Now, as soon as he becomes the Liberal leader, people start accusing him of being corrupt.

[Big Blue Machine]

At least a true liberal won, and not an imitation of one.

[Slavik44]

As the environmen minister who smiled benignly while our greenhouse emissions went up and up and up and did absolutely nothing about it? Yup, great green card. Typical Liberal glitz without substance.

The Liberals certainly do have a disasterous record when it comes to the environment, even their Project Green initiative was sseen as being largely a dud. But in the same sense Dion didn't become environment minister until 2004. So I would like to see what kind of policies he comes up with, but both Liberals and conservatives have been dissapointing when it comes to their leadership on the environment. But on the otherhand, Dion technically has the green card down becuase the Liberals signed a sheet of paper.

[August1991]

Does Dion support this carbon tax craziness?

In fact, Dion supports worse. He wants to have government regulation for environmental standards. It's a Soviet approach to environmental protection. Fortunately (or unfortunately), it won't achieve its goal but it will cost alot of money. Think gun registry.

----

This seems relevant here. An Internet poll by Canoe in Quebec today:

Dix mois après avoir perdu le pouvoir, croyez-vous que le Parti libéral du Canada est un parti renouvelé?

Oui 13%

Non 87%

Nombre de votes: 12520

Canoe

If the Liberals had chosen Ignatieff, Rae or Kennedy, they could make a credible claim to renewal. With Dion, they can't do that - not in Quebec. Dion is the same old Liberal Party. That's what the Liberals want.

After everything that happened with the investigation of the sponsorship scandal and the Gomery report, Dion's name was not linked to the scandal in any way.

Neither was Martin's name.

Frankly though, I don't know if people want to read about the sponsorship scandal anymore. It would some new juicy piece of evidence to attract interest.

[Borg]

Does English Canada really want to have another male francophone Prime Minister from Quebec?

Yes. Why not?

Because rightly or wrongly - a lot folks outside of que are simply tired of que and now consider it to be not much more than a pain in the ass at the best of times. I am starting to see this in Ont now as well. Surprizing how it appears to have grown.

This guy will not likely win a lot of friends west of Ont / Man border - but then again the libs never gave that area much more than lip service at the best of times.

There must be at least ten or twenty more things that que can demand now that it / they / whatever are to be considered a nation within a nation.

Dion is absolutely the best thing that could happen to que and Canada.

Borg

[Saturn]

Oh, it's so much fun to listen to conservatives from Alberta complain about a liberal leader from Quebec

In fact I'm sure that both Harper and Layton are crying right about now. I think that Rae would have been a better choice but Dion will screw both of them just as bad. In fact, if he gets his English right, which I think he will be working on really hard, Dion will be just as bad as Rae would have been.

But he is from Quebec! So what? The xenophobes in Alberta might care, but nobody else does. It's not like Alberta is in the game anyway. Besides Albertans hate everyone, not just Quebeckers, so nothing new or interesting there.

Dion is not liked by the Quebec separatists! Big deal, he is going after the federalist vote in Quebec and he is going to get it. Harper is done there.

Dion is too green! Excellent, so is all of Canada except Alberta. Let's see... Alberta has 28 seats and the rest of Canada ten times as many.

He was in Chretien's cabinet! So? Chretien had a cabinet for 12 years, no? And you can keep on dreaming about connecting Dion to the sponsorship scandal - that scandal has been milked to death. Harper can squeeze it all he wants but there is not a drop left.

So what's going to happen? Dion will get federalist vote in Quebec, he will move the Liberals back to the center/center-left and will syphon away a massive number of votes from the NDP. The result will be that the BQ will drop down to under 40 seats, Jack will have a caucus of 5, and Harper will have the opportunity to scream all he wants from the opposition side of the House.

[mikedavid00]

It looks like Harper will smile at this but I am not sure just how this will play out, it almost seems that teh liberals do not want to win the next election

The Libearl party will form a cou and kick out Dion after he loses the next election. He was elected in due to classic Liberal voting shcemes which keep the old timers in.

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

[seabee]

Dion is not liked by the Quebec separatists! Big deal, he is going after the federalist vote in Quebec and he is going to get it.

He is also disliked by francophone federalists in Québec, and opposed even by the PLQ.

I was listening to the press review on Radio-Canada this morning and it stands out the opinions on this topic are diametrically opposits in the ROC than in Québec. You should read this blog on Cyberpresse this morning:

by Michel Auger.

In short, Dion was the last choice of PLC francophones from Québec: they think that Dion will make them loose seats, not win more.

Harper is done there.

Very probably, but not because of Dion's election; Québécois oppose Harper strongly on this stands on Afghanistan, on Kyoto, on SSM, etc..

One can apprehend that come the next federal elections, federalists in Québec will simply abstain from voting, opening the door to a B.Q. floodgate.

And considering that the Charest government lags far behind the P.Q., come the next provincial, combining these factors, the P.Q. are likely to win by a landslide, and another referendum on independance within a few months; this time, Harper and Dion will be the "winning conditions".

But then, everybody knows that six months, a month, even a week, can be an eternity in politics. The only thing we can be sure of is that politics in Québec and in Canada will be very interesting in the next few years.

[seabee]

I was just listening on Radio-Canada to interviews with reporters who were on the convention floor yesterday, and they confirm that, contrary to popular belief in the ROC, the Québec delegates, far from supporting Dion, did everything up to the last minute to prevent him from winning, and that Dion's victory was mostly due to delegates from Ontario.

[Argus]

He was a top Chretien loyalist. I have zero doubt he knew everything about the sponsorship system, and I think most people will believe the same.

I do enjoy this particular viewpoint. After everything that happened with the investigation of the sponsorship scandal and the Gomery report, Dion's name was not linked to the scandal in any way. Now, as soon as he becomes the Liberal leader, people start accusing him of being corrupt.

Dion was not linked because he was a non-entity outside Quebec. Nobody cared about him. However, the general assumption has always been that Chretien and all his top loyalists, esp those from Quebec, had full knowledge of what was going on in with the sponsorship funding.

[Argus]

He was a top Chretien loyalist. I have zero doubt he knew everything about the sponsorship system, and I think most people will believe the same.

As the environmen minister who smiled benignly while our greenhouse emissions went up and up and up and did absolutely nothing about it? Yup, great green card. Typical Liberal glitz without substance.

Many people think all politicians are corrupt. I can still harken back to people saying they would never vote for the Conservative party again, especially if Mulroney was somehow involved. Well, guess what? The Conservatives had support last election, Mulroney was involved and they won.

You're forgetting that people kept their promise, which was with regard to the Progressive Conservative Party, which died, its remnants absorbed by the more robust party of those who left it in disgust years earlier. And Mulroney's involvement was peripheral, at best. I'm not sure he's even a member.

Besides, those who hated Mulroney due to the allegations of corruption, nepotism and patronage came to see him in a far better light after thirteen years of Chretien-Martin and their far more extensive corruption, nepotism and patronage.

[Argus]

Oh, it's so much fun to listen to conservatives from Alberta complain about a liberal leader from Quebec

In fact I'm sure that both Harper and Layton are crying right about now. I think that Rae would have been a better choice but Dion will screw both of them just as bad. In fact, if he gets his English right, which I think he will be working on really hard, Dion will be just as bad as Rae would have been.

But he is from Quebec! So what? The xenophobes in Alberta might care, but nobody else does. It's not like Alberta is in the game anyway. Besides Albertans hate everyone, not just Quebeckers, so nothing new or interesting there.

Dion is not liked by the Quebec separatists! Big deal, he is going after the federalist vote in Quebec and he is going to get it. Harper is done there.

Dion is too green! Excellent, so is all of Canada except Alberta. Let's see... Alberta has 28 seats and the rest of Canada ten times as many.

He was in Chretien's cabinet! So? Chretien had a cabinet for 12 years, no? And you can keep on dreaming about connecting Dion to the sponsorship scandal - that scandal has been milked to death. Harper can squeeze it all he wants but there is not a drop left.

So what's going to happen? Dion will get federalist vote in Quebec, he will move the Liberals back to the center/center-left and will syphon away a massive number of votes from the NDP. The result will be that the BQ will drop down to under 40 seats, Jack will have a caucus of 5, and Harper will have the opportunity to scream all he wants from the opposition side of the House.

You see, this is what being a smug, arrogant Liberal means: You live in a fantasy world where the bills never have to be paid, the whole world loves you, and anyone (or even any province) that doesn't worship you is evil and irrelevent. It's the world of the spoiled "gimmie-gimmie" children without a thought in the world for anyone but themselves.

[Argus]

I was just listening on Radio-Canada to interviews with reporters who were on the convention floor yesterday, and they confirm that, contrary to popular belief in the ROC, the Québec delegates, far from supporting Dion, did everything up to the last minute to prevent him from winning, and that Dion's victory was mostly due to delegates from Ontario.

I think the Afghanistan thing cost Ignatieff dearly. Which is both ridiculous, and a fascinating glimpse into the changeable morality of liberals. Afghanistan wasn't even on the radar when the Liberal government sent us there, and when it commited us to combat in the hot zone in the south. It wasn't a left-right, liberal-conservative thing at all. But with the Tories in power now, and strongly supporting the (Liberal) mission, and the troops in combat, all the lefty anti-war types started pulling out their hair in horror, the old boomers reliving their Vietnam protest days, and mushy liberals started quivering at all the "violence". Meanwhile political Liberals saw attacking the war as a politically expedient move, and did so. The result is that even though it's a liberal war, it's now become identified, in the "minds" of liberals, as a conservative war, and only those nasty warmongering conservatives would support such a thing. Ergo, warmongering conservative iggy wasn't fit to lead the proudly virginal (anti-war) Liberal party of Canada.

[jdobbin]

You're forgetting that people kept their promise, which was with regard to the Progressive Conservative Party, which died, its remnants absorbed by the more robust party of those who left it in disgust years earlier. And Mulroney's involvement was peripheral, at best. I'm not sure he's even a member.

Besides, those who hated Mulroney due to the allegations of corruption, nepotism and patronage came to see him in a far better light after thirteen years of Chretien-Martin and their far more extensive corruption, nepotism and patronage.

So Mulroney's corruption was much better than Chretien's? Interesting take.

[watching&waiting]

I was there for the Mulroney corruption and yes I even knew some of the people that benefited from it. I was very upset about it and yes for a long time I would never look at the PC as a place to park my vote.

But with Chretien his corruption was always either for himself personally or for the party, and friends of the party, that all benefited from his largess. It was also so deep running that it went right to the basic anals of the party. No matter what Gomery said we all know that it was still there for the most part.

That is why yesterdays win by Dion is so weird as it is going to be since as once again making the Chretienites smile and rub their hands. The Liberals who were supposed to be looking for new blood and to show a new way of doing politics, just chose the one candidate that will mean nothing but the same old guard and the same old behind the scene power brokers, as Chretian had. These are all the ones who were there for the SponserShip Scandel and they now have a new sheet to try and cover up the back room once again. The Liberals have shown that they are rotten to the core and that they have little wish to make a change. That is why I will not support them and when things settle down and the public also sees what this really means, I am sure they will not support them either. Yes I think that this is handing Harper his majority for the next election and if I read Harper right he will make that just one of a very long run of majority government.

[jdobbin]

I was there for the Mulroney corruption and yes I even knew some of the people that benefited from it. I was very upset about it and yes for a long time I would never look at the PC as a place to park my vote.

But with Chretien his corruption was always either for himself personally or for the party, and friends of the party, that all benefited from his largess. It was also so deep running that it went right to the basic anals of the party. No matter what Gomery said we all know that it was still there for the most part.

That is why yesterdays win by Dion is so weird as it is going to be since as once again making the Chretienites smile and rub their hands. The Liberals who were supposed to be looking for new blood and to show a new way of doing politics, just chose the one candidate that will mean nothing but the same old guard and the same old behind the scene power brokers, as Chretian had. These are all the ones who were there for the SponserShip Scandel and they now have a new sheet to try and cover up the back room once again. The Liberals have shown that they are rotten to the core and that they have little wish to make a change. That is why I will not support them and when things settle down and the public also sees what this really means, I am sure they will not support them either. Yes I think that this is handing Harper his majority for the next election and if I read Harper right he will make that just one of a very long run of majority government.

I think people are reading too much on the choice.

There are so many variables coming for 2008. Will there be a recession? What will the situation be in Afghanistan? Could there be a terrorist attack in Canada? Will oil prices rise or drop?

Anything and everything can affect how people think about Dion and Harper in the next months. Just ask Bush about his response to Katrina. When Canada was able to get aid people to New Orleans faster than the U.S. did, it made people question Bush's competence on security and domestic issues.

Harper could have a disaster in Canada that he responds well to or poorly to.

Not everything will be static and be decided by policy platforms. There will be considerable areas of unknowns. Afghanistan could be a constant worry in all of 2008. It might be enough to make people think about how Harper is conducting the war. The Liberals might have put the troops there but in 2008, he will have to take ownership for the extension and how things are going. If it is going well, he can take credit. If it is not, he can try to blame the Liberals but I wonder how far that will go.

[August1991]

One can apprehend that come the next federal elections, federalists in Québec will simply abstain from voting, opening the door to a B.Q. floodgate.

And considering that the Charest government lags far behind the P.Q., come the next provincial, combining these factors, the P.Q. are likely to win by a landslide, and another referendum on independance within a few months; this time, Harper and Dion will be the "winning conditions".

But then, everybody knows that six months, a month, even a week, can be an eternity in politics. The only thing we can be sure of is that politics in Québec and in Canada will be very interesting in the next few years.

The Charest government doesn't lag far behind the PQ in polls and any federal francophone Liberal leader in Quebec - from Laurier onwards - has been rejected by nationalists and yet been successful electorally. I agree the BQ chnages things compared to Trudeau's sweeps but I wouldn't count Dion out in Quebec. He'll conserve (obviously) the West Island but he'll also shift several Montreal ridings. He is eloquent and that matters far more in Quebec than it does in English Canada or American politics.

I agree however that Dion can be even more irritating than Harper. Dion is not a people person. He gets whiny when he argues and won't concede. He's a polisci professor. And a Chretien draft pick to boot.

Everyone is saying that Dion was underestimated and being underestimated is what makes for successful politics now. Well, Joe Clark was underestimated and the estimation was accurate.

Dion won by default and not through any great acumen. We'll have to see whether he's got what it takes.

With all that said, the existence of the Bloc and the union of the Conservatives mean that we will likely have minority governments for the foreseeable future. Canada is like post-war Italy with the BQ playing the role of the Communists. Dion doesn't change that.

As for Harper and Dion being the "winning conditions", I think you are dreaming in technicolor. The federal Liberal Party just chose a Quebec francophone for leader, the Tories just elected 10 MPs in the centre of Quebec and anglo Harper just got a motion through the House respecting Quebec's specificity. If outright independence is the goal, I'd say the PQ is far away from it right now.

[gc1765]

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

[fellowtraveller]

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Dion was elected because he was the safest candidate. Period.

At a moment when the Liberals urgently needed to take a bit of risk, to truly renew their party, to expunge the stain of the sponsorship scandal, to look outside Quebec for a leader, to present Canadaians with the promise and expectation of a new day - they chose the Old Guard, and rather a dull member of the Old Guard at that.

Which I predicted 3 months ago.

The Liberal National Executive engineered this non-coup, and by doing so have made a grave strategic error.

One thing is certain: Harper and his posse are partying hard this weekend. They were just handed a majority and should get Mr. Dion in front of the electorate pronto. What makes it worse for the Liberals is that not only will Mr Dion and company be handed their asses in an upcoming general election, but they are likely going to be stuck with him for another loss after that......

[gc1765]

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Dion was elected because he was the safest candidate. Period.

Isn't that exactly what I said? Isn't saying "he is less hated" equivalent to saying he is "the safest candidate"?

[normanchateau]

One thing is certain: Harper and his posse are partying hard this weekend. They were just handed a majority

Really? Can you point me to even one poll which shows that Harper would get a majority if he ran against Dion? Kennedy? Rae? Ignatieff? Fact is, there's no such poll. The best Harper can hope for is another minority government and that means CPC will likely dump him after the next election.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Dion was not linked because he was a non-entity outside Quebec. Nobody cared about him.

Non Entity? Everyone over 40 recognizes him! It's Howdy Doody on his second career!

[mikedavid00]

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

I disagree. He was elected because Kennedy backed him and thus 40% of the vote. That is the only provable thing.

Also, the people who backed Kennedy and Dion were the Chretien loyalists. Young trudeau's endoresment is all that neeeds to be said in this. He won over the floor.

Keep in mind that 6 of 8 contenders backed Rae. Those were the 'anti-establishment' wing of the party. Nobody liked Iggy I guess because he was simply too much of an outsider. Pun intended. However, I do think if all 300,000 card carying members were ALLOWED TO VOTE, they would have voted him or Rae in power.

Dion is not well liked by his collegues and I can assure everyone that the anti-establishment wing of the party will work on over-throwing him after the next election which is rumored to be sooner than later due to suspect polling showing a neck and neck tie between Lib vs Con.

I do feel that he will indeed pick up seets in Quebec. I also predict that he will not make the Environment is top priority once he gets back down to earth and speaks to his campaign strategists.

Regardless he's not going to win.

(Also there are hints that they are going to drop the GST another percent before the election gets called which is good for my household because I'll save another $20 a month for a total of $40 which totals 480 a year in our households pocket that I can re-invest into our economy to stimulate job growth and.... wait.. that's a bit too advanced of a thought for the socially engineered Liberal supporters).

[mikedavid00]

Dion was elected because he was the safest candidate. Period.

I disagree. Look at the way the Liberal election was done. You'll see it goes a bit deeper than that. He wasn't democratically elected in.

He was elected due to inside deals and chronie-ism.

Everyone involved knows this and they will be taking action against Dion maybe sooner than we think. I garuntee Dion will not last 5 years as leader.