Jesus Camp

[DarkAngel_]

read no book and call it truth, especially if it was written by men of the past, i say now lets look to the men of the future.

Which part of the future?

i shall quote this from Friedrich Nietzsche, "zealously and with clamor they drove their herds over the bridge: as if there was only one bridge to the future!"

i indeed have seen this bridge, not all wish to cross it, but your 'herd' does, and would do it like sheep saying that they must follow the good shepherd even to the slaughter house.

i wish to have true freedom, i wish to cross the bridge over man, and become more then man is today as we did to the men of yesterday. i will go my own way, let that be outcast! but i cast myself out, i could not bear the sting of your minds anymore then you mine. you are too proud to hear him, this man that understood our potential, must i go over man not knowing if anyone followed? i would surly go mad.

their is no definite future, even if we do become more then man, but in this wake we will see a shine that for an instant could be more then man, that is where we are. what if god is not god, but home, and the church is the illusion trying to teach you who he is, is the bible then a lie? maybe, but it has been changed by kings, warlords, tyrants and churches, the bible's morals have some bad morals, like how to hate and love, or how to act and play, and the worst sin of all: telling the future to be so dark, do not look at these killer's and say they tell the truth, learn it by your heart, for it is the wiser, but also is the zealot, silence him then use your head, you cannot comprehend the universe, but neither does the church, and the bible may give that shine and glamour, the light and clouds with angels at top, but i have flown and seen no angels, they are not on this earth, and the image is not as great as what man can become. begone with devils, begone with gods! it is time for man.

"what is a monkey to man, a laughing stock or painful embarrassment? so shall man be to the superman, a laughing stock and painful embarrassment!" Friedrich Nietzsche, 'thus spoke zarathustra'

this is the mental evolution from man to over man, i ask you this, would you like us to evolve?

[jefferiah]

read no book and call it truth, especially if it was written by men of the past, i say now lets look to the men of the future.

Which part of the future?

i shall quote this from Friedrich Nietzsche, "zealously and with clamor they drove their herds over the bridge: as if there was only one bridge to the future!"

i indeed have seen this bridge, not all wish to cross it, but your 'herd' does, and would do it like sheep saying that they must follow the good shepherd even to the slaughter house.

i wish to have true freedom, i wish to cross the bridge over man, and become more then man is today as we did to the men of yesterday. i will go my own way, let that be outcast! but i cast myself out, i could not bear the sting of your minds anymore then you mine. you are too proud to hear him, this man that understood our potential, must i go over man not knowing if anyone followed? i would surly go mad.

their is no definite future, even if we do become more then man, but in this wake we will see a shine that for an instant could be more then man, that is where we are. what if god is not god, but home, and the church is the illusion trying to teach you who he is, is the bible then a lie? maybe, but it has been changed by kings, warlords, tyrants and churches, the bible's morals have some bad morals, like how to hate and love, or how to act and play, and the worst sin of all: telling the future to be so dark, do not look at these killer's and say they tell the truth, learn it by your heart, for it is the wiser, but also is the zealot, silence him then use your head, you cannot comprehend the universe, but neither does the church, and the bible may give that shine and glamour, the light and clouds with angels at top, but i have flown and seen no angels, they are not on this earth, and the image is not as great as what man can become. begone with devils, begone with gods! it is time for man.

"what is a monkey to man, a laughing stock or painful embarrassment? so shall man be to the superman, a laughing stock and painful embarrassment!" Friedrich Nietzsche, 'thus spoke zarathustra'

this is the mental evolution from man to over man, i ask you this, would you like us to evolve?

"

I used to own the book "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Neitzsche had a very sharp intellect and a very nice poetical way of conveying his philosophy. Around the time that I read it, I found it had a thought-provoking effect on me. I sometimes quote that book myself, since I think he did make some valuable points. However, I don't subscribe to Neitzsche's general idea, as I see it. I think alot of what Neitzsche wrote was nothing new, an already existing philosophy. The characters in Dostoevsky's novels had many of the same intellectual ideas, and I think Neitzsche was a Dostoevsky reader. I think they were also ideas Dostoevsky himself had rejected.

It seems to me that you think people choose to believe in God because they are not free thinkers. I think you don't realize that it's untrue. You don't know Betsy's reasons for believing in God. Neitzsche was an individualist, I think, and it seems to me you are somewhat an individualist yourself. And maybe you think religion is controlling a mass herd. In some cases that may be so, but I think many people have come to believe in God from free-thinking.

You seem to have a religious zeal for Neitzsche since your language and poetic style seem to mimic "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Do you think that all people who believe in God do so because they are blind followers? Do you believe this because "Thus Spake Zarathustra" (your Bible) tells you so?

I think Neitzsche though intelligent was quite self-deluded. I don't believe in the Ubermensch. I don't believe in evolution from apes. Do you think people are forcing me to believe this? That I have chosen to believe it out of fear? I think evolution has very little actual proof and is somewhat of a religion itself. The original reasons for believing in it have all been discounted recently, but the faithful still stand by it looking to science to provide a "desired" result. Evolution is a mass of theories, elaborate stories and explanations, based on a few facts. It seems odd to me that out of the billions of children of the common ancestor only one is now using the internet, talking on the phone, etc. To me it is just plain simple logic that evolution is untrue. Maybe you dont agree, but I am not brainwashed to believe this. I am not a Church goer or anything.

Philosophically the problem with Neitzsche and others is this: the need for a Superman to create order. If everyone was an individual and free thinker and extreme non-conformist then society would be nihilist. Every man for himself. People would do as they please. So the need arises for the "greater man" to control the herd. These are the people who seize control of society by tricking people in order to establish order over them for their own good. Yet, what man is qualified for this? And what man is qualified to judge who is qualified to be over others? Perhaps the superman himself would only have the intelligence to understand that he is the leader. Now we have a real problem, because anyone who fancies himself a Superman....well I think you see where this is going.

You have mentioned in your posts something I recognize from Neitzsche. The great heights! Like his parable of the tree that grew so tall and all the others were down down below. The problem with this philosophy is: what man can judge what is up what is down. Ideas and thoughts are not as visible as trees. The fact that your idea may be far far from anothers does not mean it is far above. It could be far below. Far to the side. An idea may be very original and far far from the the ideas of the so-called "herd", but that does not make it right or truthful or worth following.

Mankind is only a small part of the universe and one man alone is only a small part of mankind. Men are just men. No supermen. Just men. Philosophy is good, and vital. But it always leads to an intellectual impass....one man cannot fathom the whole of something he is only a small part of. Men who fancy themselves able to do so are in great danger. The heights that they find are delusions.

[betsy]

i shall quote this from Friedrich Nietzsche, "zealously and with clamor they drove their herds over the bridge: as if there was only one bridge to the future!"

i indeed have seen this bridge, not all wish to cross it, but your 'herd' does, and would do it like sheep saying that they must follow the good shepherd even to the slaughter house.

i wish to have true freedom, i wish to cross the bridge over man, and become more then man is today as we did to the men of yesterday. i will go my own way, let that be outcast! but i cast myself out, i could not bear the sting of your minds anymore then you mine. you are too proud to hear him, this man that understood our potential, must i go over man not knowing if anyone followed? i would surly go mad.

their is no definite future, even if we do become more then man, but in this wake we will see a shine that for an instant could be more then man, that is where we are. what if god is not god, but home, and the church is the illusion trying to teach you who he is, is the bible then a lie? maybe, but it has been changed by kings, warlords, tyrants and churches, the bible's morals have some bad morals, like how to hate and love, or how to act and play, and the worst sin of all: telling the future to be so dark, do not look at these killer's and say they tell the truth, learn it by your heart, for it is the wiser, but also is the zealot, silence him then use your head, you cannot comprehend the universe, but neither does the church, and the bible may give that shine and glamour, the light and clouds with angels at top, but i have flown and seen no angels, they are not on this earth, and the image is not as great as what man can become. begone with devils, begone with gods! it is time for man.

"what is a monkey to man, a laughing stock or painful embarrassment? so shall man be to the superman, a laughing stock and painful embarrassment!" Friedrich Nietzsche, 'thus spoke zarathustra'

this is the mental evolution from man to over man, i ask you this, would you like us to evolve?

I have not read Nietzsche at all, but his quote implies the "herds" were all mindless. Did he say to what he based this statement?

What is "mindless?" How do you know what makes people cling to religion? Or to be more precise, a faith?

Why is there a need for humans to "worship?" Long before established religions had existed? They worship the sun, the moon, trees, volcanoes, and what else....but it is still worship nevertheless, their own interpretation of a god. Of a Creator.

As for evolution, how can we know how far we have "evolved"...if, we had evolved at all...without looking back into the past?

I too, do not believe we came from apes!

You say:

read no book and call it truth, especially if it was written by men of the past, i say now lets look to the men of the future.

Those men from the past were men of the future at that time.

PS

This makes for an interesting argument (with Jeferriah having knowledge of the theories you speak of).

It should have its own thread devoted entirely to its discussion.

[DarkAngel_]

read no book and call it truth, especially if it was written by men of the past, i say now lets look to the men of the future.

Which part of the future?

i shall quote this from Friedrich Nietzsche, "zealously and with clamor they drove their herds over the bridge: as if there was only one bridge to the future!"

i indeed have seen this bridge, not all wish to cross it, but your 'herd' does, and would do it like sheep saying that they must follow the good shepherd even to the slaughter house.

i wish to have true freedom, i wish to cross the bridge over man, and become more then man is today as we did to the men of yesterday. i will go my own way, let that be outcast! but i cast myself out, i could not bear the sting of your minds anymore then you mine. you are too proud to hear him, this man that understood our potential, must i go over man not knowing if anyone followed? i would surly go mad.

their is no definite future, even if we do become more then man, but in this wake we will see a shine that for an instant could be more then man, that is where we are. what if god is not god, but home, and the church is the illusion trying to teach you who he is, is the bible then a lie? maybe, but it has been changed by kings, warlords, tyrants and churches, the bible's morals have some bad morals, like how to hate and love, or how to act and play, and the worst sin of all: telling the future to be so dark, do not look at these killer's and say they tell the truth, learn it by your heart, for it is the wiser, but also is the zealot, silence him then use your head, you cannot comprehend the universe, but neither does the church, and the bible may give that shine and glamour, the light and clouds with angels at top, but i have flown and seen no angels, they are not on this earth, and the image is not as great as what man can become. begone with devils, begone with gods! it is time for man.

"what is a monkey to man, a laughing stock or painful embarrassment? so shall man be to the superman, a laughing stock and painful embarrassment!" Friedrich Nietzsche, 'thus spoke zarathustra'

this is the mental evolution from man to over man, i ask you this, would you like us to evolve?

"

I used to own the book "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Neitzsche had a very sharp intellect and a very nice poetical way of conveying his philosophy. Around the time that I read it, I found it had a thought-provoking effect on me. I sometimes quote that book myself, since I think he did make some valuable points. However, I don't subscribe to Neitzsche's general idea, as I see it. I think alot of what Neitzsche wrote was nothing new, an already existing philosophy. The characters in Dostoevsky's novels had many of the same intellectual ideas, and I think Neitzsche was a Dostoevsky reader. I think they were also ideas Dostoevsky himself had rejected.

It seems to me that you think people choose to believe in God because they are not free thinkers. I think you don't realize that it's untrue. You don't know Betsy's reasons for believing in God. Neitzsche was an individualist, I think, and it seems to me you are somewhat an individualist yourself. And maybe you think religion is controlling a mass herd. In some cases that may be so, but I think many people have come to believe in God from free-thinking.

You seem to have a religious zeal for Neitzsche since your language and poetic style seem to mimic "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Do you think that all people who believe in God do so because they are blind followers? Do you believe this because "Thus Spake Zarathustra" (your Bible) tells you so?

I think Neitzsche though intelligent was quite self-deluded. I don't believe in the Ubermensch. I don't believe in evolution from apes. Do you think people are forcing me to believe this? That I have chosen to believe it out of fear? I think evolution has very little actual proof and is somewhat of a religion itself. The original reasons for believing in it have all been discounted recently, but the faithful still stand by it looking to science to provide a "desired" result. Evolution is a mass of theories, elaborate stories and explanations, based on a few facts. It seems odd to me that out of the billions of children of the common ancestor only one is now using the internet, talking on the phone, etc. To me it is just plain simple logic that evolution is untrue. Maybe you dont agree, but I am not brainwashed to believe this. I am not a Church goer or anything.

Philosophically the problem with Neitzsche and others is this: the need for a Superman to create order. If everyone was an individual and free thinker and extreme non-conformist then society would be nihilist. Every man for himself. People would do as they please. So the need arises for the "greater man" to control the herd. These are the people who seize control of society by tricking people in order to establish order over them for their own good. Yet, what man is qualified for this? And what man is qualified to judge who is qualified to be over others? Perhaps the superman himself would only have the intelligence to understand that he is the leader. Now we have a real problem, because anyone who fancies himself a Superman....well I think you see where this is going.

You have mentioned in your posts something I recognize from Neitzsche. The great heights! Like his parable of the tree that grew so tall and all the others were down down below. The problem with this philosophy is: what man can judge what is up what is down. Ideas and thoughts are not as visible as trees. The fact that your idea may be far far from anothers does not mean it is far above. It could be far below. Far to the side. An idea may be very original and far far from the the ideas of the so-called "herd", but that does not make it right or truthful or worth following.

Mankind is only a small part of the universe and one man alone is only a small part of mankind. Men are just men. No supermen. Just men. Philosophy is good, and vital. But it always leads to an intellectual impass....one man cannot fathom the whole of something he is only a small part of. Men who fancy themselves able to do so are in great danger. The heights that they find are delusions.

all that could have been. the world, about to speak, although... what to say?

we hesitate...

[DarkAngel_]

I have not read Nietzsche at all, but his quote implies the "herds" were all mindless. Did he say to what he based this statement?

What is "mindless?" How do you know what makes people cling to religion? Or to be more precise, a faith?

Why is there a need for humans to "worship?" Long before established religions had existed? They worship the sun, the moon, trees, volcanoes, and what else....but it is still worship nevertheless, their own interpretation of a god. Of a Creator.

As for evolution, how can we know how far we have "evolved"...if, we had evolved at all...without looking back into the past?

I too, do not believe we came from apes!

You say:

read no book and call it truth, especially if it was written by men of the past, i say now lets look to the men of the future.

Those men from the past were men of the future at that time.

PS

This makes for an interesting argument (with Jeferriah having knowledge of the theories you speak of).

It should have its own thread devoted entirely to its discussion.

in my eye's, the god you all worship is not real, beleive in man and we can find the truth, beleive in gods and you can find illusions, step on a rock and hate it for being there, but love that the rock may cause you to feel, it is the only proof you are alive.

you follow to find this rock, i myself am drawn, but be smart, books tell lies as well, do not worship artifice if it is the drug that cures you. his point was that another way to truth may be found, that we can be real, finaly.

[betsy]

in my eye's, the god you all worship is not real,...

And that is your belief.

beleive in man and we can find the truth....

...and lies. And spin. And half truths-half-lies. And scams.

Especially nowadays when just about anybody aims to write books.

beleive in gods and you can find illusions, step on a rock and hate it for being there, but love that the rock may cause you to feel, it is the only proof you are alive.

you follow to find this rock, i myself am drawn, but be smart, books tell lies as well, do not worship artifice if it is the drug that cures you. his point was that another way to truth may be found, that we can be real, finaly.

Illusion to some perhaps....but real for believers.

If one had already found the truth...or no longer feels the need to seek the "truth".....and one feels the inner peace and calm that only faith can bring.....then I say at last, one had found the comfort of home.

[DarkAngel_]

And that is your belief.

...and lies. And spin. And half truths-half-lies. And scams.

Especially nowadays when just about anybody aims to write books.

Illusion to some perhaps....but real for believers.

If one had already found the truth...or no longer feels the need to seek the "truth".....and one feels the inner peace and calm that only faith can bring.....then I say at last, one had found the comfort of home.

but i still love mankind, nothing can take that away, once a spin happens, do we not find out and laugh? i have joy in the thought that a challenge is what we run into, i am not saying god does not exist, i am saying he did not boost us to this height that we're in, we raised each other, what can i do to make people believe in that? truth is found, do not buy a 'your truth' because the real truth, will be true to everyone. i have seen a bit of this truth, but i speak to individual minds, all comfortable in there silky beds of belief, i always question so that my bed is hard, so that i can stay up thinking, but my mind has eluded me, i am wrong most of the time, but cant you look and see how far you could go and go the distance? please go the distance or death will come in disappointment! find your height, i don't care what it is, be the one that is real. you see...

if you look at reality just the way it is, it does not have to be perceived.

[betsy]

i am not saying god does not exist, i am saying he did not boost us to this height that we're in, we raised each other, what can i do to make people believe in that?

People will believe what they want to believe in. For various reasons.

[cybercoma]

Illusion to some perhaps....but real for believers.

If one had already found the truth...or no longer feels the need to seek the "truth".....and one feels the inner peace and calm that only faith can bring.....then I say at last, one had found the comfort of home.

Nonsense. Faith is the easy way out that allows people to stop looking for answers. Appealing to an invisible all knowing and all powerful "God" -- which any rational mind can conclude that it does not exist -- is actually more harmful to us as people because it is a waste of time, energy and resources. Instead of studying what's out there for answers, instead of using science and fact, it's quite easy to shrugs one's shoulders and attribute things to a mystical magical God.

This no longer feeling the need to seek the "truth" could be detrimental to our society. Imagine if we still believed in the mystical healing power of prayer instead of going to doctors who have taken the time to understand the "truth" about the human body.

[cybercoma]

i am not saying god does not exist, i am saying he did not boost us to this height that we're in, we raised each other, what can i do to make people believe in that?

People will believe what they want to believe in. For various reasons.

Belief does not make truth.

It could be the middle of the winter and I could be freezing to death outside, believing that I'm in the tropics isn't going to make my situation any better.

As far as these "camps" go...it's disgusting that children are forced into a belief system that they can't possibly understand. More often than not we adopt the religion of our parents because we're forced into that faith from birth.

[Remiel]

People who say that " rationally " God cannot exist have not taken the rationalization far enough.

And belief can change reality, whether it be God or a quirk of the brain that allows us more conscious control over ourselves. So, believing does help, if you believe strongly enough in the right thing. It may not be everything, but it can be enough to tip the balance.

[cybercoma]

People who say that " rationally " God cannot exist have not taken the rationalization far enough.

And belief can change reality, whether it be God or a quirk of the brain that allows us more conscious control over ourselves. So, believing does help, if you believe strongly enough in the right thing. It may not be everything, but it can be enough to tip the balance.

I'll make sure I tell the credit card company at the end the month, "I believe I paid you, that should tip the balance in my favour" and see how that works out.

And please, take the rationalization far enough for me. Prove to me that a God exists and the fairytales of the Bible are true -- I'm not talking pantheistic God which is a fancy way of being atheistic.

[betsy]

Illusion to some perhaps....but real for believers.

If one had already found the truth...or no longer feels the need to seek the "truth".....and one feels the inner peace and calm that only faith can bring.....then I say at last, one had found the comfort of home.

Nonsense. Faith is the easy way out that allows people to stop looking for answers. Appealing to an invisible all knowing and all powerful "God" -- which any rational mind can conclude that it does not exist -- is actually more harmful to us as people because it is a waste of time, energy and resources. Instead of studying what's out there for answers, instead of using science and fact, it's quite easy to shrugs one's shoulders and attribute things to a mystical magical God.

This no longer feeling the need to seek the "truth" could be detrimental to our society. Imagine if we still believed in the mystical healing power of prayer instead of going to doctors who have taken the time to understand the "truth" about the human body.

But of course it's nonsense to you. You are a non-believer! You do not believe for the reasons you've cited.

But those beliefs which you describe as nonsense are still real for believers nevertheless.

The need to seek the truth could also be detrimental to our society. Of course it depends on what "truth" it is that one really seeks.

Seeking the truth could go on perpetually....wasting one's energy, burning one's self out...and even make one go insane.

Religions abound more than ever now....what with all the other new ones that had cropped out...and I still see science moving on.

[betsy]

Belief does not make truth].

Not for non-believers of the belief.

It could be the middle of the winter and I could be freezing to death outside, believing that I'm in the tropics isn't going to make my situation any better.

Ahhh...some people believe in the power of positive thinking. Even science believe in its benefits. The mind is yet unexplored completely. Who knows, maybe we even have the power to teleport...still untapped.

Envisioning being in the tropics may not physically put you literally on the beach with palm trees swaying to balmy breeze...but some practitioners of some meditations would tell you they could experience that sensation if they wish to.

[betsy]

People who say that " rationally " God cannot exist have not taken the rationalization far enough.

And belief can change reality, whether it be God or a quirk of the brain that allows us more conscious control over ourselves. So, believing does help, if you believe strongly enough in the right thing. It may not be everything, but it can be enough to tip the balance.

And please, take the rationalization far enough for me. Prove to me that a God exists and the fairytales of the Bible are true -- I'm not talking pantheistic God which is a fancy way of being atheistic.

Some beliefs that used to be dismissed as for "quacks" are already being applied...by doctors! Practitioners of the very science that you've extolled. You don't see what's already here in front of you...and you want Remiel to give you proof about God?

It's not a matter of proving. It's all about believing.

Don't consume yourself in trying to disprove a belief...or any belief...to a believer. Disproving somebody else's belief does not necessarily make yours right...besides, it doesn't make any difference to a believer anyway. In her/his mind, you are the one who is wrong.

Yes, things can get better if you believe!

[betsy]

What I do notice these days are all these cases of suicides happening....usually also involving homicides!

The latest being a mother who threw her son on a busy highway, then jumped after him.

Why are people so prone to acts of extreme despair? That they see no other solution but to end it all?

And why are there people like that man who in one day, had lost all his family in a fire 3 years ago (wife and 8 children)....and yet still found something to live for?

Why is suicide so common these days?

Is it just coincidence that extreme desparation that leads to suicide is escalating at a time when society is turning away from God and faith?

[Remiel]

I think, cybercoma, you have some fanciful notions about atheism that are not necessarily true. Some of your posts seem to indicate that you are perhaps even religiously atheist. Or, at least that is what you say. Perhaps you should look up all of the in depth definitions of the different kind of -isms.

And believing in a pantheistic God is not a fanciful way of being an atheist. That probably makes you more akin to an agnostic, or a religious skeptic. But of course, we already know that you think agnostics are really spineless atheists. However, truth is not your subject.

[jefferiah]

I believe in God. I don't think my belief in Him makes him real. I believe He is real--for believers and unbelievers.

[DarkAngel_]

moved

[DarkAngel_]

People who say that " rationally " God cannot exist have not taken the rationalization far enough.

And belief can change reality, whether it be God or a quirk of the brain that allows us more conscious control over ourselves. So, believing does help, if you believe strongly enough in the right thing. It may not be everything, but it can be enough to tip the balance.

in all that is known, gods are not, so god may exist, but not as he is worshiped.

past man may be the build of this great carver, past man is that sculpture, but i see words by men describing god, as betsy said: 'we all have our translations of the bible'

i think it is the translation of a god, i do not put faith in the unknown. so i believe in no god.

Would you define reality as a god?

[Remiel]

I think perhaps, Dark Angel, that is one of the best theological questions I have seen on this forum in the few months I have been frequenting it.

Personally, I would not define reality as a god at this point in time, but it does fall within the realm of what I consider possible. The nature of the relationship between divinity and our material-dimensional reality is perhaps the most fundamentally important question there is.

[cybercoma]

I think, cybercoma, you have some fanciful notions about atheism that are not necessarily true. Some of your posts seem to indicate that you are perhaps even religiously atheist. Or, at least that is what you say. Perhaps you should look up all of the in depth definitions of the different kind of -isms.

And believing in a pantheistic God is not a fanciful way of being an atheist. That probably makes you more akin to an agnostic, or a religious skeptic. But of course, we already know that you think agnostics are really spineless atheists. However, truth is not your subject.

Pantheism identifies God as actually being the universe or all of nature and its phenomena. Pantheism is entirely different from theism, which Christianity, Judaism and Islam are. It is an absence of an entity God that watches over us; hears and answers prayers; and performs miracles. Believing that the universe and all of its phenomena are actually what God is, is absolutely a fancy version of atheism. It says there is nothing beyond the physical universe, there are no spirits and mystical entities. In other words, there is no God 'being', no heaven, no hell, no miracles, no angels and spirits. It embraces the beauty and complexity of the universe and nature, the actual physical make-up, as being 'God'.

I do not believe in any way that there is a God, nor would I use God as metaphor for nature. I do not believe in "spirits" or a "soul" that exits the body upon death. Dualism is uneducated and childish and those who believe in it would benefit from having their consciousness raised. The idea that the steam rising from the wounds of those who die in battle was their spirit would be looked upon as nonsense nowadays since science can explain what is happening. There is no soul within our bodies, we are simply made up of complicated chemical processes. The soul is no more real than the toothfairy and the ghosts that fiction writers come up with. How adults can believe in an entity living within us that escapes when our physical bodies die is beyond me. These same people could presumably believe in becoming "possessed" by other spirits or entities.

The reality is that we're simply not made up of two parts. We are physical, that's it. Chemical reactions in the brain explain moods and thoughts, etc. The stories about what happens after we die may make approachng death more comfortable, but the serious autrocities that have been done in the name of these 'mythical' entities far outweighs the benefits to these stories. People are willing to die and murder in the name of a non-existant ghost and somehow this is acceptable because we are never to question the reality of these God entities.

Well I'm sorry, but we need to abolish religion and come to terms with science and fact. We need to stop perpetuatng the ignorance that religion creates by indoctrinating children into a deep rooted belief in ghosts and magic tricks. The sooner everyone's consciousness is raised and people begin appreciating the beauty and complexity of the universe for what it is, the better off the world will be. The sooner we can get past murdering for our favourite ghost story, the more peaceful our planet will be. Unfortunately, I have little to no hope that this will happen anytime during my life.

[jefferiah]

Hmmm......Well ok you dont believe in God, Cybercoma. I do. The fact that people have killed in God's name is not God's fault. If you think things should be abolished because people could use them for ill, then we might as well have it all out and ban everything. That is a ridiculous position Cybercoma.

[cybercoma]

The nature of the relationship between divinity and our material-dimensional reality is perhaps the most fundamentally important question there is.

Let's presume for a moment that there is a divine being that has created all of this. What then created the creator? Many people feel all of nature is too complex to have happened by chance and that's why there is a divine creator. Unfortunately, that complicates things even further since something that created all of this must then be vastly more complicated than we are. Since something so complicated can't exist by chance, there must be a creator to the creator....and so on ad nauseum.

Darwinism, which progressively builds upon life, is the only rational answer to these questions. Just because the beginnings of life have yet to be answered, doesn't mean that we should stop trying to figure it out and pass it off as a divine being to start it all. If we can finally accept that God didn't create all of this, then we must then accept that there really is no God entity.

[jefferiah]

Darwinism is a load of assumptions built upon other assumptions. That's it. It may seem to a be a rational answer to you, but not to me. I don't believe consciousness arises naturally from cold dead matter. If you wish to abolish this belief then in your society I will be a criminal.