We pay while Indians live in luxury

[ScottSA]

Its a shameful part of Canadas past, what the europeans did to the natives when they came to this continent. The empire simply crushed anyone who wanted to be different, native lifestyle was in conflict with european agricultral societies.

It was, and is, a silent holocaust, for which there has never been any real atonement.

And might I point out, much of this abuse was done by members of the christian church, the priests and nuns, the jesuits who attempted to christianize them.

This is what Theodore Dalrymple calls "sociological history," as blissfully ahistorical as heroic history, only on the other side of the spectrum. In sociological history, a long-lived hangover from the deconstructive 60s, everything in whitey's imperial history is wrong...sociological history's cloying and nonsensical revisionism has or had a place in grade 12 history class I suppose, lest anyone enters the mainstream too enamoured of imperialism, but it has no place in any discussion more academic than a late night beer slosh among drunk freshmen. There's no "shame" in dragging savages out of the stone age and setting them up with the conveniences of modern living. If they liked the stone age so damned much, they could have and would have stayed there. In fact, I don't seem to hear a great clamour for a return to the sylvan harmony of ripping each other's hair out by the roots and driving herds of buffalo over cliffs in an as yet undiscovered secret ceremony of the natural stewardship we hear so much about.

[jefferiah]

I jokingly used to call "pro-lifers" "coat hanger artists". That is a bit extreme, though it demonstrates one of my reason for keeping abortion legal; people in desperate financial and, yes, social situations will get them anyway. A distant deceased relative made a fortune during the 1950's and 1960's on illegal abortions in New York and New Jersey. He was decidedly not a nice person.

Understood. I am not making a pro-life argument, even though I am of that position. I am simply pointing out that there is an implied insult in the term "anti-choice", where with the name "Indian", which was just a designation that has been used for the past few hundred years (albeit one based on a mistake which stuck), there was never any insult intended.

It is an example of a situation where there is a group being referred to by a name which is incorrect. And in this example it is considered completely ok to do so, even though there is actually an implied barb, which is not present in the term Indian.

Furthermore they were called Indian for generations before the decision to be "indigenous".

Edited October 21, 2007 by jefferiah

[luvacuppajoe]

I honestly can't believe this. The government doesn't help you if your house burns to the ground... Red Cross brings you some stuff to get you by until insurance, but no government will lift a finger.

The difference between this situation and that affecting the fire of your house or mine is that you and I are not subject to the Indian Act, under which the federal government has a fudiciary responsibility to natives, responsibilities which include providing (among other things) housing.

I'm neither defending nor condeming it, just stating that it is what it is -- and will remain until the Indian Act is amended.

[jbg]

Incidently, that's US standard issue camou they're running around in, modified to "native warrior" standards with a few strategically placed beer stains; not stone age feathers and breach clouts. I wonder why they don't go traditional?

There's no "shame" in dragging savages out of the stone age and setting them up with the conveniences of modern living. If they liked the stone age so damned much, they could have and would have stayed there. In fact, I don't seem to hear a great clamour for a return to the sylvan harmony of ripping each other's hair out by the roots and driving herds of buffalo over cliffs in an as yet undiscovered secret ceremony of the natural stewardship we hear so much about.

I think you're overstating the case. The combination of smallpox (sh*t happens) and the introduction of such pattern-destroying practices and substances as Christianity and alchohol have made that well-nigh impossible.

The polytheistic worshiping practices of pre-Columbian natives worked well with living on the land; Christianity did deprive many natives of the learning of ancient ways that sustained them. Alchohol; what more can I say. The damage was clear, obvious and brutal. And smallpox, by eliminating 95% of the poplations (source, Mann, 1491) destroyed the leadership structure and morale of society with its patternless, savage attack on the natives.¹

¹I am posting this identical post at one other location. The posts being responded to were in two threads but had similar themes.

[ScottSA]

I think you're overstating the case. The combination of smallpox (sh*t happens) and the introduction of such pattern-destroying practices and substances as Christianity and alchohol have made that well-nigh impossible.

The polytheistic worshiping practices of pre-Columbian natives worked well with living on the land; Christianity did deprive many natives of the learning of ancient ways that sustained them. Alchohol; what more can I say. The damage was clear, obvious and brutal. And smallpox, by eliminating 95% of the poplations (source, Mann, 1491) destroyed the leadership structure and morale of society with its patternless, savage attack on the natives.¹

¹I am posting this identical post at one other location. The posts being responded to were in two threads but had similar themes.

I guess I'll have to post my response here too then, although why you dragged what I said in another thread here is beyond me.

I am hardly overstating the case. If Canadian Indians want to "return to the land" in a very real sense, there is nothing at all stopping them from picking up where they left off in 1492. Sure there'll be a few less of them, but they certainly have all the land and more that they could possibly need. But they won't return. They won't for the same reason I have no intention of returning to the blissful pre-columbian life of scratching out a living on a bleak Scottish hillside in hopes that I can live out my alotted 30 or so years of life expectancy before the Sassanatch or the clan next door kills me and my family. I'll leave it to your imagination why not. But unfortunately for the Indians, romanticizing and bemoaning the loss of that "lost way of life" means free everything, so their leaders will keep lying, and they'll keep sinking into the mire of putrified mythology and alcohol.

[jbg]

To avoid a perpetual double-tracking, I am giving a link to the answering post on the more recently created thread, "OPP finally act" (link).

[Guest trex]

Well I believe we should continue to help them out of poverty, and find a way to exist as a distinct society. They can now enjoy the best of both worlds, their native heritage and the safety of Canadian society, but at the huge expense of having lost their own society, their populations wiped out, most of their way of living gone. Although I think there are some hopeful signs for the future, native youth establish their identity as one of many diverse cultures in Canada, not apart from it. But also, not giving up their own heritage, the reservation. And for them theres no reason to believe, they wouldn't see it just as the jew sees their holocaust in world war 2, I'm sure some people might not like me saying that but in most ways it was the same. In some ways, not as brutal as the nazi gas chamber, no... but the effect was the same and the means, just as convenient. So I consider it to be part of a Canadian holocaust. Also one that is not taught much, at schools. We have no idea how many died, and why. Lawlessness of the west... mans inhumanity to man, that kind of thing

[DogOnPorch]

Well I believe we should continue to help them out of poverty, and find a way to exist as a distinct society. They can now enjoy the best of both worlds, their native heritage and the safety of Canadian society, but at the huge expense of having lost their own society...In some ways, not as brutal as the nazi gas chamber, no... but the effect was the same and the means, just as convenient. So I consider it to be part of a Canadian holocaust. Also one that is not taught much, at schools. We have no idea how many died, and why. Lawlessness of the west... mans inhumanity to man, that kind of thing

Seriously, do you live with Natives? I mean, not just a token one or fifty, but in a community with a large population?

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It's the same with white people. They cleared the forest, they dug up the land, and they gave us the flu. But they also brought power tools and penicillin and Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

---Marilynn Whirlwind (Northern Exposure)

[ScottSA]

Well I believe we should continue to help them out of poverty

I have a question. Do you feel that they are incapable of finding their own way out of poverty? If not, why not? Are they lesser animals than the rest of us? Are they innocent pets who we can't can't really treat as responsible human beings? Obviously keeping them in a gilded welfare cage isn't helping them out of poverty, although it seems to be enriching the pockets of their leach...oops I mean leaders...despite the fact that they receive gratis bushels more per capita money than anyone else, with zero input in return. So what way do you envision helping them out that we haven't tried yet?

I think we need to give them each, individually, man, women and child, a million dollars, an acre or two of crown land and ruthlessly cut them off the public teat. Hell, put it to a referendum they can vote in...I'm quite sure they'll vote for it overwhelmingly. If they then find it within themselves to pool their land and money and go off the grid and live harmoniously under the kind minstrations of stoneage tribal chiefdomships, they'll certainly be able to afford to pull it off for a generation or two. Otherwise, they can either live the rest of their lives in slatternly drunkeness or pull up their socks and move on.

[jbg]

I have a question. Do you feel that they are incapable of finding their own way out of poverty? If not, why not? Are they lesser animals than the rest of us?

The Jewish concentration camp survivors were destitute when rescued, and some were near death. Are they living as drunken wards of the state?

[geoffrey]

Again, we have a bunch of Indians in Alberta that literally shit all over their houses and we're going to foot the bill to build new ones and keep them in hotels in the mean time. The Piikani first nation has declared a state of emergency because their houses are in such disrepair, and filthy. Not because of the white man, just because they can't take care of them. On the 6:00 Global news they showed one house where the residents were using a weight bench as a toilet while excreting into their bathtub. Where the toilet was, we're not sure. Probably a result of residential schools or something.

Anyways, this just sounds like typical Indian whining, until you read these two stories along with it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2...orce_login=true

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2006/06/28/pi...i-finances.html

--

The band received $64 million in cash because they protested a dam. Soon after, they are under investigation and government management because they can't spend their money. They have $54 million in the bank.

Yet they can't clean the crap out of their houses and expect us to foot the bill?

The racism in Canada is out of hand. These Indians get way too much based on their DNA. If I trashed my house and left it to rot, I wouldn't have the government bailing me out, especially if I had $54 million in the bank.

What an outrage. Watch your 11:00 news if your in Alberta to see the images of these houses... it's not the government's fault here. Just slobby people. And your about to pay for it.

[AngusThermopyle]

Yep, we already knew about this in town here. It's not just housing though, its everything, like I said in another thread we even have to respond to fires on the reserve because one of them stole the engine out of the pumper.

It's a shame, the land they have is beautifull, I'd love to live there myself. A lot is being ruined because of mis-managment and lack of knowledge. In effect the whole place is a slum, with the money they get it could be an Eden. Just the money granted for oil and water rights alone could transform it, if it wasn't going to the local liquor stores instead.

Out here they call it Indian day when the cheques come in. You see a steady stream going in and out of the Liquor store. A lot of them come out with a couple of shopping carts full of booze. I guess they must all be running community events.

A big part of the problem is jealousy, they actually will trash each others places if they look too good. My friend was just talking about how bad the tribal rivelry is out here . He hates the fighting between the Bloods and the Piikani, thats one reason he decided to change his career choice from social worker to reserve cop.

[Oleg Bach]

This is a little bit of an issue for me.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/column...4b-2c96de049216

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/s...65c0&k=4124

Couple of links...

Anyways, we are paying for 600 squatters, not all Indians, but mostly, to hang out in hotels while their squatting area is repaired. I honestly can't believe this. The government doesn't help you if your house burns to the ground... Red Cross brings you some stuff to get you by until insurance, but no government will lift a finger.

But God forbid if some Indians living in accomodations they don't even pay for may be exposed to asbestos! They put them up in hotels!! A million bucks of our money.

It's crazy. Firstly, why can't they take care of a building? These barracks were in good condition when they were turned over, now they are a disgusting unsightly mess. I know the asbestos isn't their fault, but drive by this 'Black Bear Crossing' one day and you'll see what I mean. It's just horrible.

Secondly, why do we pay for their accomodations when they don't even pay for the use of our buildings?

Well, we quickly get their reasoning, with resident Bill saying that 'It's our land!"... what a cop out. I don't care who's land it is, people need to take care of their buildings.

Why isn't Tsuu Tina paying for their own? They are constructing a multi-million dollar casino (oh how that's going to help them ), it's not like they don't have the money.

Bottom line it's not our responsibility to provide hotels to squatters.

Really bad squatter shelters to real cheap and ugly tiny hotel rooms - this is horrific..next thing they will be doing is giving them clean white towels and maybe room service and one of those little fridges full of mini bottles...I say give them a few poles and some burpap and get that TP idea back in vouge...and their kids having temper tantrums...on no...where is the social service child protection people when you need them - these poor children are probably doing without their medication - I suggest break up those nasty families. If left unchecked they may rally and go on the war path.......and to think that the tax payer is dishing out 30 bucks a day a room? I knew this crook who stole thirty million in a suit case and split the nation - he was put up in a hotels prior his scam - buy the share holders 8000 a weak - and the share holders akin to tax payers did not mind till he split with the 30 million in large bills - that must have been heavey...they finally caught him and his homley wife hiding in a 30 dollar a nite motel eating greasy take out...Ironic- he was out in two years..

[kengs333]

What's the point of dredging up another Indian thread when we got enough already?

[Oleg Bach]

What's the point of dredging up another Indian thread when we got enough already?

No point in picking away at the little stuff or the common people - may be more useful givin Indian leaders a spanking rather than their nephews and poorer cousins. Big deal if someone is put up in a cheap hotel - I believe they have those places for those illegals trying to land in Canada - out by the airport or something - why pick on those that landed in Canada, 20 thousand years ago - we might be a bit to late to inflict warranted abuse.

[jbg]

The racism in Canada is out of hand. These Indians get way too much based on their DNA. If I trashed my house and left it to rot, I wouldn't have the government bailing me out, especially if I had $54 million in the bank.

You mean either "political correctness" or "reverse racism"?

[TFCandC]

The reserve system needs to be replaced. The current state is unnacceptable. Not because Indian's aren't getting money from the government, they get plenty and don't have to pay taxes. However problems such as alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and domestic abuse, are rampant on the reserves. For much too long the government has simply thrown money at the problem. But if you give an alcoholic more money, all that means is another 12 pack. I think we should stop the cycle, get aboriginals to start paying taxes like the rest of Canadian's. What I'd prefer to do is give Natives 20,000$ that they must spend on education and only education. Their also has to be more accountability for were money goes on the reserves as well.

But when we say that the government hasn't done enough for natives, they have provided them with more then enough money. However the government has for the past century failed to address any social problems on reserves, the only response has been to either ignore it, or throw money at a problem hoping it will go away.

You really need to hit the books! Bigotry, racism, intolerance, can all be erased with a little education. Where did you ever get the idea that Natives pay NO taxes......are you living under a rock? And do you mean to tell me that alcohol, drug and domestic abuse aren't "rampant" in your own cities, villages and towns? C'mon, give your tiny head a shake! The reserve system? Consider this; somewhere between 1895 - 1905, the white government of South Africa heard rumours of how Canada "controlled" its Native population...so....they sent a delegation to Canada to study these various methods. The result? When they returned to South Africa, what they had learned was to become known to the entire world as.......(can your little brain handle this?) ....... Apartheid....a.k.a. the "reserve" system! You must be mentally deficient to think that we, as a people, wanted the reserve system.

There's so much more you cannot possibly begin to imagine. Try this one; we are presently trying to get the Crown (Canada) to explain to us, of the hundreds of thousands of children who "attended" the residential school system, where are the (estimated) 30 to 50 THOUSAND Native children who were ripped from their families and forced into residential schools, that simply disappeared, never to be heard from again? What of the enormous contribution and sacrifice Natives across Canada made, in the formation and defence of this country you seem to be sooo proud of? Yah...you really need to hit the books to understand this very deep and complex subject and my advice to you is, shut up until you know what the hell you are talking about. While you're at it, take spelling as an additional subject. Geeeze.......your comments just ooze bigotry, racism and ignorance.

[CandianWatcher]

Before you condemn the government for looking after a Natives you should read some of the history of the Natives in Canada, the treaties and agreements. You will find that we as a country have a legal obligation to do this.

[White Doors]

You really need to hit the books! Bigotry, racism, intolerance, can all be erased with a little education. Where did you ever get the idea that Natives pay NO taxes......are you living under a rock? And do you mean to tell me that alcohol, drug and domestic abuse aren't "rampant" in your own cities, villages and towns? C'mon, give your tiny head a shake! The reserve system? Consider this; somewhere between 1895 - 1905, the white government of South Africa heard rumours of how Canada "controlled" its Native population...so....they sent a delegation to Canada to study these various methods. The result? When they returned to South Africa, what they had learned was to become known to the entire world as.......(can your little brain handle this?) ....... Apartheid....a.k.a. the "reserve" system! You must be mentally deficient to think that we, as a people, wanted the reserve system.

There's so much more you cannot possibly begin to imagine. Try this one; we are presently trying to get the Crown (Canada) to explain to us, of the hundreds of thousands of children who "attended" the residential school system, where are the (estimated) 30 to 50 THOUSAND Native children who were ripped from their families and forced into residential schools, that simply disappeared, never to be heard from again? What of the enormous contribution and sacrifice Natives across Canada made, in the formation and defence of this country you seem to be sooo proud of? Yah...you really need to hit the books to understand this very deep and complex subject and my advice to you is, shut up until you know what the hell you are talking about. While you're at it, take spelling as an additional subject. Geeeze.......your comments just ooze bigotry, racism and ignorance.

Hey Posit. Aqt least you have the gonads to admit that you ARE a native now.

how is that pension doing?

[M.Dancer]

Try this one; we are presently trying to get the Crown (Canada) to explain to us, of the hundreds of thousands of children who "attended" the residential school system, where are the (estimated) 30 to 50 THOUSAND Native children who were ripped from their families and forced into residential schools, that simply disappeared, never to be heard from again?

Amazingly, thousand of names of the children or their parents have not been submitted to the RED CROSS...know why? They were ground into TINFOIL.

It's true, I read it on the interweb....

[AngusThermopyle]

Consider this; somewhere between 1895 - 1905, the white government of South Africa heard rumours of how Canada "controlled" its Native population...so....they sent a delegation to Canada to study these various methods. The result? When they returned to South Africa, what they had learned was to become known to the entire world as.......(can your little brain handle this?) ....... Apartheid

Bullsh*t propaganda. I suggest you do a little studying and find out about the actual roots of Apartheid. The whole concept began way before 1895. Simply because a reserve system was employed does not mean it originated in North America. The roots of Apartheid pre date the time period of which you speak by many many years. Read about it and you'll see that it came about due to Boer dissatisfaction with British law which did not make a distinction between people based upon the colour of their skin.

[AngusThermopyle]

As an aside to the whole Apartheid thing which is really off topic. I just read today that the Tsuu Tsina have finished constructing their new Casino. Apparently this is the biggest Casino in Alberta. They have stated that smoking will be allowed in the Casino, despite a smoking ban in the province. For that I say good for them, its about time someone stood up to the nanny state and told them to go pound sand. I really don't think there is much the province can do about it other than to accept the situation.

Now on a personal note. I hate the idea of another Casino. Our society enacts silly laws dealing with weed yet we allow the construction of Casino's. The cash cow known as a Casino is in my view far more harmfull than an oz of weed.

[charter.rights]

As an aside to the whole Apartheid thing which is really off topic. I just read today that the Tsuu Tsina have finished constructing their new Casino. Apparently this is the biggest Casino in Alberta. They have stated that smoking will be allowed in the Casino, despite a smoking ban in the province. For that I say good for them, its about time someone stood up to the nanny state and told them to go pound sand. I really don't think there is much the province can do about it other than to accept the situation.

Now on a personal note. I hate the idea of another Casino. Our society enacts silly laws dealing with weed yet we allow the construction of Casino's. The cash cow known as a Casino is in my view far more harmfull than an oz of weed.

So you would agree that natives are sovereign over and above the laws of Alberta, or Canada?

[AngusThermopyle]

So you would agree that natives are sovereign over and above the laws of Alberta, or Canada?

Not necessarily. Everything is not black and white, life is full of shades of gray. In this case I support them, they're basically telling government that they are going too far, similar to the vets and legions with reference to this issue.

However, society does require laws. Smoking is a minor issue compared to other offences. If I understand you correctly, I think you are implying that Natives should not be subject to the law. Thats a rather indefensible position. If for instance a native murdered someone it would appear that you believe there should be no legal consequences. This is clearly an unacceptable stance to take.

As I said, there are many shades of gray. On some issues I'm supportive, on others I'm opposed. The one thing I do not bend on however is blatant hypocrisy and manipulative tactics. I find that both sides in the Caledonia situation are resorting to such positions. This is why I'm not really supportive of either side. The native position presented here so far is that they are 100% in the right and have done nothing of any harm to anyone or anything. This is clearly fallacious and dishonest, therefore in all good conscience I cannot state that I am supportive of their cause as presented.

I do believe that efforts must be made to settle these matters in an amicable manner within the bounds of reason. It is after all the just thing to do. However that does not mean bowing to every ridiculous or over the top demand being made.

You may not believe this but at my place of employment we go far out of our way to employ Natives. We've gotten a couple of good guys this way. Unfortunately for every ten we try to help we might get one who actually wants what we offer. In fact we just promoted one up to foreman, he'll be running his own crew from now on, damn good worker, really knows his shit, nice guy too. The truth is I've offered native guys pan handling downtown jobs about ten times this year, not one has accepted.

So, I do not blindly give blanket support. I give support where it is justified, where those to whom I give it have shown that their cause is legitimate. Sorry for going on at such length, its just that the question required more than a line or two to answer.

Now I've gotta take off and finish my Christmas shopping. Merry Christmas all.

[Oleg Bach]

Not necessarily. Everything is not black and white, life is full of shades of gray. In this case I support them, they're basically telling government that they are going too far, similar to the vets and legions with reference to this issue.

However, society does require laws. Smoking is a minor issue compared to other offences. If I understand you correctly, I think you are implying that Natives should not be subject to the law. Thats a rather indefensible position. If for instance a native murdered someone it would appear that you believe there should be no legal consequences. This is clearly an unacceptable stance to take.

As I said, there are many shades of gray. On some issues I'm supportive, on others I'm opposed. The one thing I do not bend on however is blatant hypocrisy and manipulative tactics. I find that both sides in the Caledonia situation are resorting to such positions. This is why I'm not really supportive of either side. The native position presented here so far is that they are 100% in the right and have done nothing of any harm to anyone or anything. This is clearly fallacious and dishonest, therefore in all good conscience I cannot state that I am supportive of their cause as presented.

I do believe that efforts must be made to settle these matters in an amicable manner within the bounds of reason. It is after all the just thing to do. However that does not mean bowing to every ridiculous or over the top demand being made.

You may not believe this but at my place of employment we go far out of our way to employ Natives. We've gotten a couple of good guys this way. Unfortunately for every ten we try to help we might get one who actually wants what we offer. In fact we just promoted one up to foreman, he'll be running his own crew from now on, damn good worker, really knows his shit, nice guy too. The truth is I've offered native guys pan handling downtown jobs about ten times this year, not one has accepted.

So, I do not blindly give blanket support. I give support where it is justified, where those to whom I give it have shown that their cause is legitimate. Sorry for going on at such length, its just that the question required more than a line or two to answer.

Now I've gotta take off and finish my Christmas shopping. Merry Christmas all.

Natives have noticed - that the estabishement are mafia so they follow suit - sheeple!