We pay while Indians live in luxury

[charter.rights]

Not necessarily. Everything is not black and white, life is full of shades of gray. In this case I support them, they're basically telling government that they are going too far, similar to the vets and legions with reference to this issue.

However, society does require laws. Smoking is a minor issue compared to other offences. If I understand you correctly, I think you are implying that Natives should not be subject to the law. Thats a rather indefensible position. If for instance a native murdered someone it would appear that you believe there should be no legal consequences. This is clearly an unacceptable stance to take.

As I said, there are many shades of gray. On some issues I'm supportive, on others I'm opposed. The one thing I do not bend on however is blatant hypocrisy and manipulative tactics. I find that both sides in the Caledonia situation are resorting to such positions. This is why I'm not really supportive of either side. The native position presented here so far is that they are 100% in the right and have done nothing of any harm to anyone or anything. This is clearly fallacious and dishonest, therefore in all good conscience I cannot state that I am supportive of their cause as presented.

I do believe that efforts must be made to settle these matters in an amicable manner within the bounds of reason. It is after all the just thing to do. However that does not mean bowing to every ridiculous or over the top demand being made.

You may not believe this but at my place of employment we go far out of our way to employ Natives. We've gotten a couple of good guys this way. Unfortunately for every ten we try to help we might get one who actually wants what we offer. In fact we just promoted one up to foreman, he'll be running his own crew from now on, damn good worker, really knows his shit, nice guy too. The truth is I've offered native guys pan handling downtown jobs about ten times this year, not one has accepted.

So, I do not blindly give blanket support. I give support where it is justified, where those to whom I give it have shown that their cause is legitimate. Sorry for going on at such length, its just that the question required more than a line or two to answer.

Now I've gotta take off and finish my Christmas shopping. Merry Christmas all.

I agree. Laws are shades of gray.

Canada has a set of laws that we govern ourselves by. So do the US and other nations, just like the Six Nations who not only have a set of laws they follow but a constitution that guarantees freedoms we can only dream about. So if we accept they are free to not conform to smoke laws, then we must not we also accept that maybe we should stand back and and let then deal with other aspects of their own lives?

I believe it was the Nafan Treaty where the British agreed that where a crime was committed in each other's territory the offender would be extradited to their own territory for trial and punishment. Considering that that agreement is still on the books (it has never been repealed by either party AFAIK) it would seem a reasonable thing to do. The average citizen argues against that because in many cases their own racism and xenophobia leads them to believe there will not be punishment (read revenge) severe enough. Yet they also don't want to be tried under Confederacy law for similar reasons, with the exception that they are afraid that they will be punished more than they deserve. Sounds a little two tiered to me.....

I think that when any two parties enter negotiations their starting position is that they are 100% right. I believe that is what we are hearing most of the time and only negotiations will examine the issues and come to conclusions and compromises. You may not be aware but from what I have read recently about the Iroquois Confederacy, they are masters at negotiation and every conflict they have had was resolved by statesmanship and discussion. They goal was always to restore the peace....interesting converse to us in the western world that use violence to solve our problems. I am fascinated with some of the things I have been learning.

What exacerbates the problem from our point of view is that we are not party to what goes on in those negotiations, and being Canadians we think something sinister is going on. Yet, the Six Nations' people get regular updates because that is the way they do things. It is frustrating to not know, but the government doesn't want people to see what they are giving away before they actually give it away IMO.

Since our system isn't working for us, I have a hard time suggesting that we should impose our failures on them. From what I have read they had / have a good system abd perhaps we have something to learn from them, as humble as we would need to be to accept that fact.....

[Wild Bill]

I think that when any two parties enter negotiations their starting position is that they are 100% right. I believe that is what we are hearing most of the time and only negotiations will examine the issues and come to conclusions and compromises. You may not be aware but from what I have read recently about the Iroquois Confederacy, they are masters at negotiation and every conflict they have had was resolved by statesmanship and discussion. They goal was always to restore the peace....interesting converse to us in the western world that use violence to solve our problems. I am fascinated with some of the things I have been learning.

Tell it to the Neutrals! If you can find any of them. Did the Iroquois even leave them a grave site?

[JCAN]

I am new to this forum but I have a simple question, Why do we continue to pay for the natives when they as well as we did not originate to this continent it is genetically proven that we all originated from the African region, therefore we are all immigrants. This being the case we have as much right as anyone to this land. we should all have equal rights to pay taxes and earn a living.

[AngusThermopyle]

I am new to this forum but I have a simple question, Why do we continue to pay for the natives when they as well as we did not originate to this continent it is genetically proven that we all originated from the African region, therefore we are all immigrants. This being the case we have as much right as anyone to this land. we should all have equal rights to pay taxes and earn a living.

Welcome to the forum.

Now stop making sense.

Seriously, when it comes to Native issues logic flies out the window and is replaced with revisionism and some sort of semi mystical rationalization.

I thought this thread had died a not so peacefull death.

[gc1765]

I am new to this forum but I have a simple question, Why do we continue to pay for the natives when they as well as we did not originate to this continent it is genetically proven that we all originated from the African region, therefore we are all immigrants. This being the case we have as much right as anyone to this land. we should all have equal rights to pay taxes and earn a living.

In that case, I'm sure you won't mind if I build a house on your front yard?

[JCAN]

In that case, I'm sure you won't mind if I build a house on your front yard?

I have paid for my land and you are welcome to try but as in the past should you try and win it is yours to have whether I like it or not the same as it was in all examples except in Canadian history, but if you should fail then you can keep on moving to the next chunk of land and try again.

Although that is not what I am saying at all, if it were we could all go back to wherever we came from and demand such things. My point is we have now established boundaries in this country and enough is enough we should all keep what we have and move on there is no reason to continue supporting a nation when it has clearly not worked to theirs or our benefit if we were all responsible for our own we would all be much better off in time. There are other support systems in place to help all Canadians in the meantime, that is not to say our welfare system is perfect but it is a step in the right direction if some should need it. I believe that there are many native Canadians that are well educated and contribute allot to society and as in all cultures some will succeed and some will fail but if we work towards making it a united Canada without preferential treatment to any we as a people will all have a better chance to succeed.

After some rough times I am sure all will be better off even though the future generations would benefit from it the most I think at some point someone must make the tough decisions and unfortunately we have become complacent with the situation it is easier to do nothing then to change.

I do not have all the answers and I am sure neither does anyone else but it is time that our country as a whole looks at the situation seriously and starts to change for the betterment of all and the future.

[DangerMouse]

This country was built by a bunch of boat people squatters from Europe. The boats back then didnt have showers so I would have hated to be the indian who greeted them over here. If you don't appreciate what you got out of those boat people squatters then shut your yap and go back! If they didnt squat for your bigot arse, you wouldnt have any tax money to whine about. SO please get on that boat and go back to the land where all the european squatters came from....

[JCAN]

The so called natives of this land came to it by walking across a land bridge or in some cases a small raft or boat from Africa, Asia, and possibly even Europe, I am sure they were no cleaner than the later immigrants that came.

You might want to read what I have written again I mention all of us working together on a fair and equal playing field I know that might be scary for some but there comes a time in everyones life that they must leave the safety of the proverbial nest. my statements have a lot less bigotry in them than yours, and they are based in science and good will to all Canadians regardless of race, religion or color.

This is the sort of unintelligent answers I expected, I guess this is why most do not bother to waste their time. Good luck not changing anything. you might want to read a little bit closer next time and it might not hurt to travel a bit and experience more cultures before you speak next time

[AngusThermopyle]

SO please get on that boat and go back to the land where all the european squatters came from....

So esentially you're saying we should all leave and go back to where we all came from?

Wouldn't that logicaly undermine your whole premise?

[JCAN]

So esentially you're saying we should all leave and go back to where we all came from?

Wouldn't that logicaly undermine your whole premise?

I appreciate how what I said might have come across that way but what I am saying is that the best way to understand oneself is to open your mind to all cultures so that your opinions are not based on a heliocentric idea.

There are more problems still in this world than just our own here but at the end of the day if we are always focusing on everyone else we will never fix the ones right here at home.

My family has been in Canada for many generations, I am married to a European who only holds resident status and does not intend to become a citizen we travel back every year and I enjoy my time there but I will always be Canadian with all its faults and greatness. I am just another person with an opinion like all tend to have but I do try to better myself and my country always.

I appreciate the intelligent questions answers and hope that at the end of the day I contribute something.

[DangerMouse]

The so called natives of this land came to it by walking across a land bridge or in some cases a small raft or boat from Africa, Asia, and possibly even Europe, I am sure they were no cleaner than the later immigrants that came.

You might want to read what I have written again I mention all of us working together on a fair and equal playing field I know that might be scary for some but there comes a time in everyones life that they must leave the safety of the proverbial nest. my statements have a lot less bigotry in them than yours, and they are based in science and good will to all Canadians regardless of race, religion or color.

This is the sort of unintelligent answers I expected, I guess this is why most do not bother to waste their time. Good luck not changing anything. you might want to read a little bit closer next time and it might not hurt to travel a bit and experience more cultures before you speak next time

Why is the truth unintelligent?

[JCAN]

Why is the truth unintelligent?

I will leave it with you to figure out, and when you find out why it is not the truth you will understand. Good Luck!

[AngusThermopyle]

Why is the truth unintelligent?

Good to see you again DM. I hope this means you're going to continue our discusion.

So...where were we? Oh yes, I remember now. We were talking about how Oral history has never been and could never be subverted to acomplish a specific goal. As i recall you challenged myself and anyone else to provide an instance when that had ever happened. So I did.

Now, as I remember it. That was the point where you gave up all pretences of an intelligent discusion and reverted to the most basic of attempts at insults. Still you provided no answer ( as in keeping with your blatant modus operandi). So. Got anything semi intelligent to say on the subject now?

Take care, I look forward to your well thought out pap in answer.

Sincerely yours AT.

[charter.rights]

Good to see you again DM. I hope this means you're going to continue our discusion.

So...where were we? Oh yes, I remember now. We were talking about how Oral history has never been and could never be subverted to acomplish a specific goal. As i recall you challenged myself and anyone else to provide an instance when that had ever happened. So I did.

Now, as I remember it. That was the point where you gave up all pretences of an intelligent discusion and reverted to the most basic of attempts at insults. Still you provided no answer ( as in keeping with your blatant modus operandi). So. Got anything semi intelligent to say on the subject now?

Take care, I look forward to your well thought out pap in answer.

Sincerely yours AT.

You really don't understand.

The Supreme Court laid out a test to validate oral history, which requires confirmation from many sources AND requires the witness to provide a continuous link to the origins of that history.

The courts generally hold eye witnesses in higher esteem than affidavits, or other written testimony. Yet eye witnesses do lie and so it is up to the court to provide the same kinds of test or oral testimony.

The courts also hold written contracts in fairly good weight. Yet we know that documents are forged and unreasonable demands are made that prove to be extraneous in court.

The fact that you cited one case where the oral history did not make the test, is proof of nothing...unless of course you want to also admit that Canadian history is also full of lies and myths, and the contracts and treaties made by the British and by Canada were mostly bogus.....Essentially it is the same kind of argument that no evidence can be trusted.

Edited April 10, 2008 by charter.rights

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually you really don't understand.

Danger Mouse laid out a challenge. He said show one case where people have lied when presenting oral history, or whatever you choose to call it. I did so, simple, nothing to do with jurisdiction or any other fancy dance. In effect he said Natives don't lie under oath, the same farcical premise you have advanced yourself many times.

So, tell me, what is so difficult to understand about that? Or are you now merely attempting to divert from the topic of his original challenge.

What is really interesting is the fact that I never mentioned whether it was a provincial Supreme Court or federal that passed on this decision. He desperately grasped at any straw he could, much as you do when you attempt to divert and obfuscate in support of your agenda.

So, simple really. He challenged and lost. He then refused to acknowledge his error and went on with meaningless insults.

Is that clear enough for you?

[JCAN]

I know that we cannot just ignore the original treaties, the fact that we have not is a testament to our peacefulness, but we do have to draw a line and the only way we will not eventually be pushed into civil war is to find a balance and end it there. As long as the Government keeps giving all will keep on taking, it is a fact human nature.

I find that a lot of these discussions get tied up in legal rights and wrongs we need to think past that and move on and start looking for a viable change, it is obvious that passing more laws and giving more land and so on is not ever going to work.

The only way to remove the stigmas is to make all equal on every level, to do anything else is to be racist, we need to stop seeing colors and start seeing Canadians we are all here now no mater what happened in the past and we must act so accordingly.

Our generation is at an impasse and we owe it to our future generations to start doing something now so that we can continue to have a great country.

I believe that if we all work together towards a common goal we can continue to offer health care and maybe even afford free education for all, we would be a richer more educated country.

One thing that all seem to forget is that we are a unique country were we have plenty of land water and other resources we are one of if not the only country that could be self sufficient if we were cut off from the rest of the world(I hope this does not happen), yet we are one of the weakest markets as far as 1st world countries go. This is because of a lack of population and the division in our country which causes us to spend money to keep people happy rather than to develop our nation as a whole.

I hope I live to see some of these changes come to pass, but if not I hope that we can all be part of the first step towards them.

[gc1765]

The only way to remove the stigmas is to make all equal on every level.

What exactly do you mean by equal? I don't have as much land or money as most people, does that mean I'm not equal?

to do anything else is to be racist, we need to stop seeing colors and start seeing Canadians we are all here now no mater what happened in the past and we must act so accordingly.

The issue is not about race or colour, it is about who is the rightful owners of the land. If I came and squatted on your land, you would probably want me to leave, or at least demand compensation. That has nothing to do with the colour of your skin, but the fact that you own the land.

[JCAN]

I disagree at the heart of the situation for most it is about race and color they did not originate here either so they have no more claim to it than any one else if that were the case we would see examples of it all over the world.

As I had said earlier we are talking about the past at no point in history has a nation that had for a lack of better term (conquered) another including native conflicts and then over the subsequent years support them and give them all of the land back. If we continue this way what will eventually happen is the same as you see in the middle east, people will get tired of watching everything they work for be given or taken away and we will have civil war and then we can squabble over it for 4000 or so years and I am sure none of us want that.

What I am saying is we have all been here for a long time and we should keep what we have and move on to something more productive than arguing if we have given them enough, it is the same tired over used excuse and if it is the only one that people can come up with then the hope of any change is gone.

[gc1765]

I disagree at the heart of the situation for most it is about race and color they did not originate here either so they have no more claim to it than any one else if that were the case we would see examples of it all over the world.

So, assuming that you own land (or pretending that you do), why do you think you have a claim to that land any more than anyone else, since you did not originate here either?

[JCAN]

Well first off I do have a deed for my land, and when I sell it I will not be able to come back to the new owners and demand it back or ask for compensation because I made a bad deal. Besides I am sure if I went back to Africa demanding my fair share they would laugh me right back to Canada.

I am sure that if my little piece of land was taken by a nation 100's of years ago, it would be theirs and I could do nothing about it . It may not be right and there would be some issues with it now but that is what happened. our generation or future ones should not have to continue to make recompense for what someone did centuries ago.

My point is you are living in the past with a syclical argument. This is not the way we do things now so why should people including our Government be made to give up land that the Natives do not have right to anymore historical or other wise. the idea that they have claims in for 110% of BC is ludicrous. As I said before we should all be happy with what we have if you want more pay for it like I did with money that I earned. If someone did try to take my land I would fight for it and if I lost I am sure they would not give it back or pay me for it.

there will always be some who have more than others but we should all have a fair shot at attaining our goals and being prosperous

As long as people keep thinking about who has original ownership over every piece of land in this world we will never over come the turmoil and wars that have plagued this world for no good reason.

We could learn a lot from the European union, less than 80yrs ago Germany was invading all of Europe now there are no borders between them and France and Switzerland being an hour away is quite relaxed with theirs. The German people are not asked to pay restitution to those that it wronged and yet those people are still successful and not poverty stricken they can afford to give their citizens all but free post secondary education which is why they are known for producing some of the greatest minds.

Lands have changed hands there hundreds of times over the centuries yet through out most of Europe there is no bickering about who was there first or who owns what I would think that with Canada being the size it is we could find an amicable solution for all.

[Dog]

So, assuming that you own land (or pretending that you do), why do you think you have a claim to that land any more than anyone else, since you did not originate here either?

You think indians originated here ?

[gc1765]

You think indians originated here ?

What the heck are you talking about? Did you even read my posts?

P.S. "Indian" is a derogatory term, and I'd appreciate it if you would not use it.

[gc1765]

Well first off I do have a deed for my land, and when I sell it I will not be able to come back to the new owners and demand it back or ask for compensation because I made a bad deal.

...I would think that with Canada being the size it is we could find an amicable solution for all.

My original comments were taking issue with the fact that you seemed to be implying that Natives shouldn't get any money at all for their land, but now it seems you acknowledge that we shouldn't ignore the treaties and that Natives should be compensated for their land. I'm not suggesting that Natives should be allowed to sell land that they have already sold, or that they should be entitled to 110% of the land. I'm simply saying that they deserve fair compensation and an "amicable solution for all". No one would argue with that, even if some people may disagree about the details of what is "fair".

If someone did try to take my land I would fight for it and if I lost I am sure they would not give it back or pay me for it.

I'm sure that if the government took your land, you would be demanding compensation too.

[jbg]

P.S. "Indian" is a derogatory term, and I'd appreciate it if you would not use it.

Normally I respect your posts even though we rarely agree. I think you are going overboard with political correctness though. The term "Indian" resulted from this mistaken belief that the Europeans had reached India.

Is the name "Newfoundland" derogatory because it means "New Found Land"?

[gc1765]

Normally I respect your posts even though we rarely agree. I think you are going overboard with political correctness though. The term "Indian" resulted from this mistaken belief that the Europeans had reached India.

I respect your posts as well, but I disagree with you here.

It's not about political correctness, it's about showing respect for others. I don't go around calling people that I respect "idiots" (and I suspect that you don't either)...not because I'm trying to be politically correct, but because it is derogatory.