We pay while Indians live in luxury

[Hydraboss]

Believe me, I know. Just read my signature line. It was given to me by someone on this board because I tried to make a case for true equality in Canada.

[Who's Doing What?]

Believe me, I know. Just read my signature line. It was given to me by someone on this board because I tried to make a case for true equality in Canada.

My sig is similar, for similar reasons.

[Temagami Scourge]

Believe me, I know. Just read my signature line. It was given to me by someone on this board because I tried to make a case for true equality in Canada.

My sig is similar, for similar reasons.

My sig is meant for guys like the three of you.

I guess were even.

[Canadian Blue]

Wow what a great deal of maturity on this topic eh.

I don't agree with you so your stupid.

[Who's Doing What?]

Believe me, I know. Just read my signature line. It was given to me by someone on this board because I tried to make a case for true equality in Canada.

My sig is similar, for similar reasons.

My sig is meant for guys like the three of you.

I guess were even.

Hehe Here I thought your sig was just explaining why you talk the way you do. Kind of an "Excuse me but..." kind of thing.

[geoffrey]

Don't let the troll bait you, he's not made a rational argument since he's arrived... what can you expect from a guy that supports race based rights?

--

Scourge... you know this wouldn't happen if the building was full of white alcoholics in downtown Toronto. But it would always happen if it were full of (mostly) Indians, and on their reserve?

I thought we were supposed to get out of your hair on the reserves. I say we do, and let these people freeze this winter without repairs to their donated building. Self-governance comes with a little bit of responsibility too, something Indian leadership obviously hasn't been willing to accept.

You can't have all the joys of self-governance and none of the costs. Unless, of course, you actually believe in the racial rights that you advocate so strongly.

[gc1765]

The basic question here is whether the government would do the same for white people squatting in an ex-government building. I'm going to say with a reasonable degree of certainty absolutely not.

This isn't a gaurnteed treaty right, to have asbestos removed and hotel accomodations found at Canada's cost. So why are they doing it?

According to Riverwind, the government is spending 200 thousand dollars to give families free housing in Vancouver. Perhaps it not so much a race thing as it is a needs thing.

Can we all agree now that race definitely buys you some significant perks? Why aren't more Canadians upset at this?

I would be more upset if white people (who I am assuming don't have money to pay for housing) didn't have an inhabitable place to live and the government didn't do anything about it.

I thought we were supposed to get out of your hair on the reserves. I say we do, and let these people freeze this winter without repairs to their donated building. Self-governance comes with a little bit of responsibility too, something Indian leadership obviously hasn't been willing to accept.

You can't have all the joys of self-governance and none of the costs. Unless, of course, you actually believe in the racial rights that you advocate so strongly.

We give foreign aid to other countries, and that is not based on race. I suppose you could argue that third world countries need the money more, but if these people have no place to live I'd say there is a need there as well.

[Topaz]

My question to all who think ill of the First Nation is, would you change places with these people, Would you live your live on a reserve? I don't many would, I wouldn't, but ,I can understand why their lives has abuse. The society of this country hasn't and probably won't accept the First Nation and so if they wanted to leave the reserves they would have to have a job and I don't think too many non- native Canadians would hire them.Both, Natives and non-Native are responsible for how these people are today and there are some that do make out into society and made a life for themselves and ALL Canadians should want that for them and other Canadians who aren't doing so well. I don't really care about them living in a hotel and us paying for it, it was the government that created the problem. Don't sweat the small stuff, be lucky you can support yourself!

[Temagami Scourge]

Heffie:

Scourge... you know this wouldn't happen if the building was full of white alcoholics in downtown Toronto. But it would always happen if it were full of (mostly) Indians, and on their reserve?

What a load of bull-pucky. This does indeed happen, regardless of race. The key is that there is a response to a defined need. You are the one who wrote "We pay while indians live in luxury", only to say that it's not all native people actually living in the old buildings, but they are the main ones! Who argues like that and then turns around and gets upset when people point out that it's racist.

Look...a "normal" person could have easily entitled this thread "Impoverished put up in hotel at taxpayers expense"....but no, It's Indians. Yes...you single out the Natives and then whine when you are called on it.

Here in Toronto, we talk about "Homeless", or the "addicted", but we don't say "Homeless Natives oh and others too "

[Temagami Scourge]

Heffie:

Can we all agree now that race definitely buys you some significant perks? Why aren't more Canadians upset at this?

Perks? You mean like butt-rape at the hands of priests? Wow some perk. keep it coming lads....

[Led Boots]

Considering that the alternative to paying for temporary housing is to put 600 people (many of them children) on the streets I think the federal government made the right choice. I have to agree with qc1765 that the monetary cost is unimportant in this situation (and I’m a typical whiney tax payer).

[Canadian Blue]

Heffie:

QUOTE

Can we all agree now that race definitely buys you some significant perks? Why aren't more Canadians upset at this?

Perks? You mean like butt-rape at the hands of priests? Wow some perk. keep it coming lads....

That happens to white people as well. I think he's talking about the no taxes thing.

My question to all who think ill of the First Nation is, would you change places with these people, Would you live your live on a reserve? I don't many would, I wouldn't, but ,I can understand why their lives has abuse. The society of this country hasn't and probably won't accept the First Nation and so if they wanted to leave the reserves they would have to have a job and I don't think too many non- native Canadians would hire them.Both, Natives and non-Native are responsible for how these people are today and there are some that do make out into society and made a life for themselves and ALL Canadians should want that for them and other Canadians who aren't doing so well. I don't really care about them living in a hotel and us paying for it, it was the government that created the problem. Don't sweat the small stuff, be lucky you can support yourself!

Topaz be careful, I suggested a program to give aboriginal's money to complete post secondary, and I was called a racist, bigot, and apparently I also support residential schools.

[Temagami Scourge]

Bleu:

That happens to white people as well.

Yes, but as a form of evening enjoyment, not as part of a state-planned policy. That is the key difference.

[geoffrey]

What a load of bull-pucky. This does indeed happen, regardless of race. The key is that there is a response to a defined need. You are the one who wrote "We pay while indians live in luxury", only to say that it's not all native people actually living in the old buildings, but they are the main ones! Who argues like that and then turns around and gets upset when people point out that it's racist.

Look...a "normal" person could have easily entitled this thread "Impoverished put up in hotel at taxpayers expense"....but no, It's Indians. Yes...you single out the Natives and then whine when you are called on it.

Here in Toronto, we talk about "Homeless", or the "addicted", but we don't say "Homeless Natives oh and others too "

Here's the deal. The government gave the nice, reasonably conditioned building to the Tsuu Tina band (it was a barracks before). In no time at all, the band has let it go to shambles, asbestos has been found there that now needs to be cleaned up (why by the government? the asbestos in a business or anywhere else is cleaned up by the owner?) so we move out all the people and put them up into hotels.

I'm telling you this never would have happened in a privately owned buildling, but because Indians own it, it's like we have some kind of obligation to keep everyone over there happy. The band should be footing the bill.

The real matter at hand is these people won't be able to find accommodations and will die during the winter without the government's intervention. So much for those Indians and their self-governance. I really ought to wonder where all the money goes?

Anyway, this is Treaty 7 and no where in there does it say the government needs to fund asbestos cleanup for squatters on Indian land.

Bleu:

That happens to white people as well.

Yes, but as a form of evening enjoyment, not as part of a state-planned policy. That is the key difference.

Any proof of that? Or is this along the lines of your 'recognized passport' bullshit? Write a book with all your evidence on that and you'd make a few bucks I'm sure. Though there must be a reason why someone hasn't.... oh yes, because it's bullshit.

[Canadian Blue]

QUOTE

That happens to white people as well.

Yes, but as a form of evening enjoyment, not as part of a state-planned policy. That is the key difference.

Provide government documentation that allows people to rape natives in the last half century?

[malamute]

Greetings,

I will try to make thiss as easy as possbile because the info can be quite convoluted.

first off, not many natives at tsu t'ina are upset about being dispalced while the old barracks are 're done'. there is a severe housing shortage there and from aboriginal perspective, no one is squatting. the land there was leased by the dnd and the lease ran out a few years ago. the army didn't feel the need to re-lease as was cutting back so moved soldierss and their families to edmonton. the dnd took down all their buildings save for the barracks.

another thing they left behind was a lot of live ammo, like bombs. the chief at the time secured a contract for the tsu t'ina to be trained to clean up. the chief was negligent , as was the dnd, not to fence off the area and put signs up (there was one). even with one sign, young children and some elders cannot read. there were at least two injuries, a woman's arm blown off and someone else lost an eye.

the chief was voted out, rightfully so.

if the dnd left the barraks up and did not make arrangments for rentals, basically the abandoned it, and it's on tsu t'ina land then it is not squatting....these people had every right to move in.

the tsu t'ina reserve is not a rich one. it has no oil or other resources to exploit. most live in poverty.

NATIVE INDIANS DID NOT CHOSE TO LIVE ON RESERVES, THEY WERE FORCED TO. their traditional lands branch out far further then the reserves. just about every treaty signed was through coeresion or signatures were forged by the conquerors. the majority of tribes were mother clan where women are the stewards of the land and not allowed to sell, so it goes both ways that treaties are false.....yes people, you all live on native land.

even with the signing of illegal treaties, the treaties were and never have been honoured. the amount of money owing, with interest, is very high.

according to canada's own rule of law , natives are protected. this goes back to queen anne and still holds and is also in canada's constitution. canada has constantly contravened it's own rule of law regarding treaties and claims. your tax dollars are constantly wasted through court procedings fighting treaties and claims. if something isn't done about this, ie, canada respecting it's own law, then your great great grandchildren will still be paying for this countries mistakes.

this is not just a matter of having to pay for your forefather's mistakes. the mistakes continue. you are paying because the governments of canada refuse to recognize their own laws.

the kelowna accord was a step in the right direction. it was a move forward to help prepare natives for the day they can rightfully be proclaimed sovereign ......then they can support themselves. think: the department of indian affairs, that top heavy, wasteful and distasteful agency can be eliminated.

for the tsu t'ina to build a casino is their own business ..... and the money is procured just like if you were to start one up....by loan.

if they are asking for water and the infrastructure for it, this is a small price compared to what they are owed in terms of money and land. perhaps looking at it from the perspective that you are getting off easy is a more correct outlook.

assimilation is not an option, it is a choice and one most would not make. natie culture is different. fi the chinese conquered here tomorrow, would you want them to force you to be part of their society? you would have to learn chinese, eat chinese, breath chinese. the mosaic priniciple is fine to a degree and is really only applicable in cities. a reservatiion is not a city. it is a village with a lot of rural land where natives can maintain culture and language. if the chinese were to herd you onto reserves you may be happier then if you were to live amongst them , even if your conditions weren't so hot.

natives pay taxes too....anytime they buy off the reserve (frequently), illegally at the gas pumps where klein slapped the provincial sales tax on. with wages.

the best thing you can do if you are not happy with your tax dollars going to underpay what is owed natives, is to pressure your m.p.'s and mla's to reinstate the kelowna accord and have them settle treaties and land claims, and grant sovereignty.

until the wrong doing has been cleared up, teh quagmire will continue. you are getting ripped off by the government, but for the wrong thing. knowing some history, law and culture will teach you this.

[blueblood]

Not another one...

The government has this thing called the right of expropriation, that means when the government feels that it is in the best interest of the country to take some land, it has the right and it exercises that right. You get to enjoy living in the best country in the world because the government in the old days exercised this right. The treaties any government sign are only good for as long as the people who made and signed them are around. Why should something that old apply in today's society? The government of Canada doesn't have to honor the treaties, who is going to stop them? The government could look at all those land claims and say go fly a kite, and quite honestly there isn't anything that can stop them. I don't understand why you are proclaiming that they should be sovereign, yet be protected under OUR charter of rights and freedoms plus vote in Canadian elections that's a double standard. We should get rid of the Department of Indian affairs and the Kelowna accord, that is a burden on our taxpayers for things that happened long ago and it would inject billions into the system. As far as poverty is concerned there is ample employment in Canada to accomodate them which will help boost the economy, heck we can even shut the door to immigrants. I live in a rural area with a high Metis population, they don't get special rights, some live in poverty, and some do quite well for themselves. The same goes for the rest of Canadians. There is also a reserve nearby where I live, it is hard to feel sorry for someone where a pile of tax dollars are flowing into a reserve where instead of doing something constructive with it, it is squandered or seeing a truck with a window sticker saying "whitey's taxes paid for this". Everyone in canada is equal, no one is more equal than anyone else, that is a concept that you appear to have a problem with understanding.

[mister_v]

.....yes people, you all live on native land.

Your thinking that the land belongs to natives is only a frame of mind. So what if their ancestors showed up first. In reality the land belongs to whoever has the biggest hand cannon. Thats the way its always been and thats the way it always will be.

At this point in history Canada is the big boy north of the parallel and there isn't anything that can be done to diminish that fact. So instead of bitching, try hopping onto the Canadian bandwagon. There's plenty of room and you get to keep your traditions just like all other people's inhabiting this great country.

[malamute]

i'm not quite seeing the logic in your arguement as expropriation is a pretty old law....so if you ask why we should adhere to old laws,, then this is contradiction.

the protecion of natives is built into the constitution because genocide continues. the generational effects of mistreatment, residential schools, land theft (not through expropriation, for instance, the cities of whistler and squamish constantly move survey pins to build on land that belongs to the squamsh...more shenanigans that affect your tax dollar in court battles) and stereotyping.

the foundation under settler's laws makes this what you call a beautifual country (and indeed it has many beauties). this is old, old law , should this be usurped and looked over? law is law. rule of law states that natives are sovereign and within that are the treaty rights etc.. like it or not you are paying for your forefather's mistakes because the government fihts it's own laws instead of honouring them. this costs you more in taxes in the long run as the government has interest in the resources on traditional territories. it is a matter of control.

i can't speak for natives who put stupid stickers on their trucks. in my beliefs, this is not right and does not help anything. prejudice runs on both sides. this is a human problem and i dont condone it from anyone.

i certaily agree it would be good to get rid of indiain affairs. it is a useless body. as for the kelowna accord, here i disagree because it would help so many get on their feet. as said before, the affects of residential school are horrendous. being raped and tortured lower's a person's esteem to nothing. it is a long healing process. it is most publicly stated that the last residential school closed in 1984, but it was actually in the '90's. most of the old schools have been torn down as are too hard for people to look at. almost all the schools had fetuses buried iin the walls and the grounds. if you have never experienced abuse it is difficult to understand the implications of it and what is does to degrade you as a person.

the government of canada has to honour the treaties according to their own laws and international laws. if brought to the hague, which may be the case, canada loses. there is intense international pressure on canada because of continued mistreatment.

if we are to all live here togehter on native land then it is best natives are sovereign. this will save you tax dollars. natives can self govern and clean up their councils.

i'm thinking of bad deals canada has gotten and NAFTA and the softwood lumber deal are at the forefront. how does it feel to be ripped off by the u.s.a.? what if g.a.t.,the g-8 and other treaties canada has signed onto rescinded their honours to canada? how would you feel? what would you do?

what if, under NAFTA, the u.s. came in and proclaimed water rights like they are trying to do? this is a reality....you stand every chance of americans drawing on our water and other resources because of this agreement.

[malamute]

junior member,

cannons do not control the world, this is an illusion. cannon power is a short lived recipe with no solid foundation. history proves over and over again that this type of base does nothing but render it's users as targets of their own opressiing ways. this is why canada has left itself open to overtake by the u.s..

as for human rights, you cann't stop passion. it is stronger then hate.

i'm glad you have fun living on native land, welcome, and i hope you do well for yourself in life and are blessed with a large, loving family. that is the native way.

[Riverwind]

i'm glad you have fun living on native land, welcome, and i hope you do well for yourself in life and are blessed with a large, loving family. that is the native way.

Democracy trumps all claims of native title. If the majority of people living on land are not native and do not feel they are part of any native 'nation' then that land no longer belongs to the native 'nation'. No treaty or legal document is required - it is simply the practical and legal reality in Canadian and International law. Negotiations with native groups only apply to land that is not currently occupied.

[gc1765]

Democracy trumps all claims of native title. If the majority of people living on land are not native and do not feel they are part of any native 'nation' then that land no longer belongs to the native 'nation'. No treaty or legal document is required - it is simply the practical and legal reality in Canadian and International law. Negotiations with native groups only apply to land that is not currently occupied.

What if the majority of people decide that a piece of land owned privately by an individual doesn't belong to them anymore?

[Riverwind]

What if the majority of people decide that a piece of land owned privately by an individual doesn't belong to them anymore?

Happens all of the time: it is called expropriation. Obviously there has to be a balance between protecting private property rights and democratic rights, however, it is up to the democratic majority to make the final decision about what balance is appropriate. That is why gov't trys to negotiate compromises with native groups rather than using the democratic powers that it has impose a solution. That is also why it is rediculous to claim that anyone in Canada is living on land that belongs to natives. The land now belongs to Canada and it is up to the democratically elected officials to ensure that all Canadains (including native Canadians) have an opportunity to benefit from this land.

[gc1765]

Happens all of the time: it is called expropriation. Obviously there has to be a balance between protecting private property rights and democratic rights, however, it is up to the democratic majority to make the final decision about what balance is appropriate. That is why gov't trys to negotiate compromises with native groups rather than using the democratic powers that it has impose a solution. That is also why it is rediculous to claim that anyone in Canada is living on land that belongs to natives. The land now belongs to Canada and it is up to the democratically elected officials to ensure that all Canadains (including native Canadians) have an opportunity to benefit from this land.

Under expropriation, aren't they compensated for their losses?

[Riverwind]

Under expropriation, aren't they compensated for their losses?

Sure - but it is the gov't that decides what compensation is appropriate. In most cases of this means the owners can get fair market value for the property but that may be much less that what the property is worth to them. It is impossible to offer 'fair market value' for lands that natives claim because the cost would be too huge - so the gov't either offers symbolic compensation or argues that there is no legal claim.

Frankly, anyone who believes that native rights should trump democracy is advocating a return to a feudal system of land holding where the benefits of land ownership are restricted to a group of people identified by their ancestors. I think feudalism is a pretty bad system but I am surprised at the number of people who seem to think it is a good idea provided the feudal landowners are not white.