Europe paralized with fear

[Leafless]

It looks like radical Muslims have achieved for moderate Muslims what moderate Muslims would never be able to achieve by themselves.

And that is a FORCED RESPECT for THEIR religion utilizing terror tactics.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenew...TS-RELIGION.xml

[Charles Anthony]

From the quoted article:

The controversy centred on a scene in which King Idomeneo is shown on stage with the severed heads of Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad and the sea god Poseidon.

---SNIP---

Berlin security officials had warned that staging the opera "Idomeneo" would pose an "incalculable security risk".

That is correct. There could be a backlash. Here is a solution: stage the opera and omit the head of Mohammad. Problem solved.

Mozart's music is great but he is not sacred.

More from the article:

"To do it in advance of any actual protest I think invokes the next protest, because the radicals in any community are aided and abetted by that," said Lisa Appignanesi, a novelist and deputy president of the writers' group PEN in England.

"We don't want to end up in a situation where we don't dare to speak up. What we do not want is a society where one is constantly fearful about what the people holding the bombs or the guns might say."

Reality check: we already live in "a society where one is constantly fearful about" yadda yadda yadda. Deal with it.

[Leafless]

Reality check: we already live in "a society where one is constantly fearful about" yadda yadda yadda. Deal with it.

Reality check: World powers ARE dealing with it.

[betsy]

Here is a solution: stage the opera and omit the head of Mohammad. Problem solved.

Mozart's music is great but he is not sacred.

Sacred to whom?

By whose definition?

Some classical music afficionados consider Mozart's pieces as "sacred".

[Leafless]

Here is a solution: stage the opera and omit the head of Mohammad. Problem solved.

Mozart's music is great but he is not sacred.

Sacred to whom?

By whose definition?

Some classical music afficionados consider Mozart's pieces as "sacred".

Especially the 'Requiem' and the 'Coronation Mass' which was dedicated to the Holy Faith and church related purposes.

But what we are basically talking about AGAIN is free speech, self censorship and Islam.

I am convinced Muslims and Islam are not adaptable to modern civilization and belong back in the dark ages where they belong.

Their stringent religious beliefs are not compatible with free, democratic countries.

Which begs to answer the question: Why are countries like Canada continuing to allow immigration from Arab Muslim countries?

[Charles Anthony]

Why are countries like Canada continuing to allow immigration from Arab Muslim countries?

Their food tastes better than our food and we are tooooo lazy to cook.

[Leafless]

Why are countries like Canada continuing to allow immigration from Arab Muslim countries?

Their food tastes better than our food and we are tooooo lazy to cook.

It is sad indeed Canadians are dying in the pursuit freedom and democracy only to have in our own country rights abused by sub-cultures and thrown back into the faces of the creators, the primarily majority English speaking, White Christian Canadians.

[M.Dancer]

Why are countries like Canada continuing to allow immigration from Arab Muslim countries?

Their food tastes better than our food and we are tooooo lazy to cook.

I had a biryani yesterday to die for.

[Charles Anthony]

I had a biryani yesterday to die for.

Citation?

[JerrySeinfeld]

This is precisely what I have been writing abobt ad nauseum for the past 2 years. For europe it is far too late - the demographics are already set in motion. Europeans don't have childeren at replacement rate while muslim communities procreate like its goin' outta style. Byt 2040 France will be the first Muslim Nuclear SuperPower (if it isn't already).

It's not too lat ehere in Canada to grab hold of our identity, our culture and what we stand for. But by the time Canadian ultrasensitives wake up it WILL be too late.

But while that multiculti muzzzak ("donnnnnnnn't offfend.....donnnnnnnnnnn't offend......") keeps numbing us all to sleep there are seriuos cultural, religious and demographic trends at play.

Since when does anyone have the right not to be offended, anyway?

[bk59]

That is correct. There could be a backlash. Here is a solution: stage the opera and omit the head of Mohammad. Problem solved.

Mozart's music is great but he is not sacred.

Originally the opera didn't even have that scene in it, it's just that the director who added it didn't want to remove it:

The scene, which is not in Mozart's original staging, was added by director Hans Neuenfels for a production that premiered in 2003.

From: http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2006/09/26/op...ontroversy.html

I am convinced Muslims and Islam are not adaptable to modern civilization and belong back in the dark ages where they belong.

Their stringent religious beliefs are not compatible with free, democratic countries.

Which begs to answer the question: Why are countries like Canada continuing to allow immigration from Arab Muslim countries?

There are many Muslim immigrants who are able to reconcile their religious beliefs with Canadian society. Should we really ban all immigration from certain countries because of some extremists in those countries? Isn't that what our immigration policies are supposed to weed out? While they won't be perfect, we should instead focus on improving the ability of immigration officials to do their jobs rather than barring everyone from entering the country. Should we also ban refugees from these countries, who have legitimate reasons to flee and want to find a better life? I find it hard to rationalize the position that, for certain countries, we should shut the doors to Canada for everyone in the country because a few people in those countries are extremists.

The problem really is extremism, not the religion of Islam. To say that Muslims are not adaptable to modern civilization denies the fact that many Muslims here in Canada are not only fitting in to our society, but actively and positively contributing to it as well. As for the reference to the dark ages (aka Middle Ages), it should be helpful to note that during the Middle Ages Islamic culture and science was quite advanced. Arguably more so than the European counterparts of the time.

[betsy]

The way things are going, either western countries will voluntarily just end up losing their identities through compromises and appeasement...or there will come a time when immigration policies will drastically change and we'll see a world divided. Drastic measures that will see immigrants (and citizens) re-evaluating their decisions and making crucial choices.

This steady and relentless encroachment on the cultures of other countries....through intimidation or threats of violence...can only lead to more violence in the end, unless a country completely capitulates and voluntarily decides to accept all terms.

[Leafless]

The way things are going, either western countries will voluntarily just end up losing their identities through compromises and appeasement...or there will come a time when immigration policies will drastically change and we'll see a world divided. Drastic measures that will see immigrants (and citizens) re-evaluating their decisions and making crucial choices.

This steady and relentless encroachment on the cultures of other countries....through intimidation or threats of violence...can only lead to more violence in the end, unless a country completely capitulates and voluntarily decides to accept all terms.

"Unless a country completely capitulates and voluntarily decides to accept all terms."=EQUALITY.

How much longer are Canadians going to continue to buy 'official multiculturalism'.

I think drastic measures are in store for many countries while we still have a inkling something could be drastically wrong with present immigration policies and this could even be applicable to over abundant of rights and freedoms becoming abnormally abused rights and freedoms.

[Michael Hardner]

The way things are going, either western countries will voluntarily just end up losing their identities through compromises and appeasement...or there will come a time when immigration policies will drastically change and we'll see a world divided. Drastic measures that will see immigrants (and citizens) re-evaluating their decisions and making crucial choices.

What are you speaking of, specifically ? What do you mean by 'identity' and 'drastic measures' ?

[Riverwind]

What are you speaking of, specifically ? What do you mean by 'identity' and 'drastic measures' ?

A 'final solution' perhaps?

[Michael Hardner]

Let's let her answer...

[betsy]

The way things are going, either western countries will voluntarily just end up losing their identities through compromises and appeasement...or there will come a time when immigration policies will drastically change and we'll see a world divided. Drastic measures that will see immigrants (and citizens) re-evaluating their decisions and making crucial choices.

What are you speaking of, specifically ? What do you mean by 'identity' and 'drastic measures' ?

It is inevitable that something will have to give eventually.

Either we keep on appeasing and compromising our own culture and values, thereby eventually losing our own identity in the process....

...or drastic changes will have to be made as to our immigration policies.

The way things are escalating in other countries (with threats of violence at every thing that is deemed "offensive")...is it far-fetched to think of the possibility that a fed-up western society may just decide that they have to re-evaluate everything: that may even include sworn citizens. That all citizens be made to choose to either embrace the host country's values or be stripped of their citizenship and shipped back where they came from?

[Argus]

From the quoted article:

The controversy centred on a scene in which King Idomeneo is shown on stage with the severed heads of Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad and the sea god Poseidon.

---SNIP---

Berlin security officials had warned that staging the opera "Idomeneo" would pose an "incalculable security risk".

That is correct. There could be a backlash. Here is a solution: stage the opera and omit the head of Mohammad. Problem solved.

Mozart's music is great but he is not sacred.

Suppose Christian groups here in Canada threaten to bomb anyone who takes Jesus' name in vain. Would you agree that we should then ban anything offensive to the Christian churches, as well? Or is it just the Muslims you think deserve respect?

[Michael Hardner]

It is inevitable that something will have to give eventually.

Either we keep on appeasing and compromising our own culture and values, thereby eventually losing our own identity in the process....

...or drastic changes will have to be made as to our immigration policies.

The way things are escalating in other countries (with threats of violence at every thing that is deemed "offensive")...is it far-fetched to think of the possibility that a fed-up western society may just decide that they have to re-evaluate everything: that may even include sworn citizens. That all citizens be made to choose to either embrace the host country's values or be stripped of their citizenship and shipped back where they came from?

I'm sorry but I still don't see enough specifics in your answer.

Our culture changes with time. It always has. So do our values, whether 'we' and 'our' refer to the 'west', Canada, America or Europe.

If I let my imagination go, I might imagine that there would be some point in the future (say, 2040) when there are so many Muslims in Canada that there's a groundswell of support to remove our constitution and make Canada a Muslim state. Luckily, my imagination isn't that wild - that's not going to happen.

This is the world we asked for when we gave the powers that be the directive to create a true global marketplace, and the world government that that entails. The genie is out of the bottle, but luckily it's not as scary as some think it is.

[Michael Hardner]

Suppose Christian groups here in Canada threaten to bomb anyone who takes Jesus' name in vain. Would you agree that we should then ban anything offensive to the Christian churches, as well? Or is it just the Muslims you think deserve respect?

Different argument - we're not talking about banning, but self-censorship here.

[betsy]

It is inevitable that something will have to give eventually.

Either we keep on appeasing and compromising our own culture and values, thereby eventually losing our own identity in the process....

...or drastic changes will have to be made as to our immigration policies.

The way things are escalating in other countries (with threats of violence at every thing that is deemed "offensive")...is it far-fetched to think of the possibility that a fed-up western society may just decide that they have to re-evaluate everything: that may even include sworn citizens. That all citizens be made to choose to either embrace the host country's values or be stripped of their citizenship and shipped back where they came from?

I'm sorry but I still don't see enough specifics in your answer.

Our culture changes with time. It always has. So do our values, whether 'we' and 'our' refer to the 'west', Canada, America or Europe.

If I let my imagination go, I might imagine that there would be some point in the future (say, 2040) when there are so many Muslims in Canada that there's a groundswell of support to remove our constitution and make Canada a Muslim state. Luckily, my imagination isn't that wild - that's not going to happen.

This is the world we asked for when we gave the powers that be the directive to create a true global marketplace, and the world government that that entails. The genie is out of the bottle, but luckily it's not as scary as some think it is.

It is a speculation on my part. Perhaps letting my "wild imagination" go.

However, it is not just my imagination that some people....just out of fear of POSSIBLE violence...had decided to stifle the freedom normally enjoyed in a democratic western society. It is a chip of the foundation being given away just so there wouldn't be any violence. The curious and sad part is that...the self-censorship was done....in fear of ANTICIPATION. I get this image of a battered person who automatically shields his face in fearful defence at just the slight movement from his tormentor. Conditioned...and anticipating violence at every turn. Europe may try to scoff it off...or deny it....but they are already living in fear.

By the looks of it, some of them will lean more towards capitulating and giving up their identities just for the sake of appeasement....hoping...it will thwart farther violence.

Perhaps this is the kind of bargaining Jack has in mind when he said we should negotiate with the Taliban.

Going back to the said incident in Germany, I also read that some high officials were opposed to this "self-censorship." There is a growing opposition to this kind of psychological tyranny being waged upon the world.

It is just a matter of having all the right elements at the right time (whatever it is I don't know)....that may make my wild-imagination become a reality.

The world is in a awful mess right now. I don't think we've had any war (global scale) triggered of by religious zealotry. When you consider all the other religions of this world....who are also as much committed to their faith....we don't know how far they are also willing to go in protecting their own beliefs. After all, unless they worship Allah, they are also deemed "infidels."

[betsy]

Our culture changes with time. It always has. So do our values, whether 'we' and 'our' refer to the 'west', Canada, America or Europe.

Maybe so. But a lot of those culture-change were a result of wars...of colonization...invasions.

Cultures had evolved with the changing world...some just by the natural flow of things. But some of these "voluntary" adaptations to the changing world was not by means of tyranny. There lies the difference.

[betsy]

Suppose Christian groups here in Canada threaten to bomb anyone who takes Jesus' name in vain. Would you agree that we should then ban anything offensive to the Christian churches, as well? Or is it just the Muslims you think deserve respect?

Different argument - we're not talking about banning, but self-censorship here.

If Christians had been bombing places for every insults that is heaped upon Jesus, I think the reaction will be different. I assume you will promote self-censorship and showing respect for Christianity ....so there wouldn't be any violence.

The extremists had been steadily ....and consistently...reacting with violence for every deemed slight against their religion. They cling to the promise of 72 virgins if they bomb themselves to smithereens. The more victims they take along with them, the more glory for them.

We are being "conditioned" how to behave. Some had already been "conditioned."

The extremists loonies among Christians (yes we've got them too) had shown they too are capable of violence. Think of the abortion doctors and clinics.

[betsy]

This is the world we asked for when we gave the powers that be the directive to create a true global marketplace, and the world government that that entails. The genie is out of the bottle, but luckily it's not as scary as some think it is.

Why then are the extremists killing in the name of Allah?

Can you please explain the connection of it to global markets?

Why are they screaming "death to the infidels"....why are they not screaming "death to traders?"

As far as I know, the Christians, the Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindus, Wiccans, etc., are so far a part of this global market....and yet they seem to be doing fine.

[betsy]

This is the world we asked for when we gave the powers that be the directive to create a true global marketplace, and the world government that that entails.

And along with it, Multi-culturalism, that the UN strongly endorsed!