Europe paralized with fear

[betsy]

If I let my imagination go, I might imagine that there would be some point in the future (say, 2040) when there are so many Muslims in Canada that there's a groundswell of support to remove our constitution and make Canada a Muslim state. Luckily, my imagination isn't that wild - that's not going to happen.

Why is that not possible?

[Argus]

Suppose Christian groups here in Canada threaten to bomb anyone who takes Jesus' name in vain. Would you agree that we should then ban anything offensive to the Christian churches, as well? Or is it just the Muslims you think deserve respect?

Different argument - we're not talking about banning, but self-censorship here.

We're talking about letting fear of violent religious people govern what plays are put on, and presumably, what books are written and sold, what movies, what books, etc. etc. The previous posters's attitude was "oh well, just don't put on a play that offends Muslims, no big deal". I want to see just how far he's willing to go with that.

[Argus]

If I let my imagination go, I might imagine that there would be some point in the future (say, 2040) when there are so many Muslims in Canada that there's a groundswell of support to remove our constitution and make Canada a Muslim state. Luckily, my imagination isn't that wild - that's not going to happen.

That's going to happen in some European countries. Eventually, it could happen here, as well, especially if Iggy gets in and doubles immigration.

[Remiel]

You guys do realize that people of Oriental descent are projected to be our largest minority in the future, not Muslims, right? You can stop the fear mongering over Canada becoming a fundamentalist Islamic state now.

[betsy]

You guys do realize that people of Oriental descent are projected to be our largest minority in the future, not Muslims, right? You can stop the fear mongering over Canada becoming a fundamentalist Islamic state now.

Maybe so. The Chinese had been in this country longer than any other oriental groups. So far, I've not seen any demand from them to change our ways just to suit their religion. Especially VIOLENT demands.

But some oriental groups worship Allah!

And if you take a look at what's happening in their mother country....you'd see the extremists in their motherland being quite active too. Extremists and activists in the Philippines had been in a frenzy lately over just about anything deemed "offensive" by their fellow-brethrens in the western worlds. Taking their cue from the western headquarters, I guess.

So yes there may be more orientals than non-orientals....but we're talking of religion....and the zealotry that comes with it.

Speaking of fear-mongering....that will make an interesting topic all on its own.

[JerrySeinfeld]

It is inevitable that something will have to give eventually.

Either we keep on appeasing and compromising our own culture and values, thereby eventually losing our own identity in the process....

...or drastic changes will have to be made as to our immigration policies.

The way things are escalating in other countries (with threats of violence at every thing that is deemed "offensive")...is it far-fetched to think of the possibility that a fed-up western society may just decide that they have to re-evaluate everything: that may even include sworn citizens. That all citizens be made to choose to either embrace the host country's values or be stripped of their citizenship and shipped back where they came from?

I'm sorry but I still don't see enough specifics in your answer.

Our culture changes with time. It always has. So do our values, whether 'we' and 'our' refer to the 'west', Canada, America or Europe.

If I let my imagination go, I might imagine that there would be some point in the future (say, 2040) when there are so many Muslims in Canada that there's a groundswell of support to remove our constitution and make Canada a Muslim state. Luckily, my imagination isn't that wild - that's not going to happen.

This is the world we asked for when we gave the powers that be the directive to create a true global marketplace, and the world government that that entails. The genie is out of the bottle, but luckily it's not as scary as some think it is.

This type of thinking is typical fodder which is resposible for the firebombings and grip that Islam has on Europe now: Most of the multiculti left assumes that the free and just society in which we live today is and always will be roughly as it is with some mild changes due to immigration shifts.

This is wishful thinking.

What we all have come to know as our "way of life" in the west - freedom os speech, religion, thought, race etc. enfettered by religious, racial or other major conflict has really only existed for about 60 years (the last 60 years) under the "American Moment" since WWII. The rest of human history has been pretty much miserable.

To assume that things will continue to go along as they have for 60 years with only minor cultural shifts is present tense thinking.

There is an Arabic saying which I think many western lefties should learn - which should help them understand just how ineffective appeasement will be: "A falling Camel Attracts Many Knives".

In other words, the more we say "oh - I'm sorry let me change the script / cartoon / news reporting / laws to appease radical Islam" the more they will increase the level of violence in the knowledge that it is working.

[betsy]

You can stop the fear mongering over Canada becoming a fundamentalist Islamic state now.

Believe me, the last thing I want is to add more fear to the liberal society that's already stumped and afraid to move....just like a deer caught in the headlights.

What's the problem with being aware of what's happening around us? Think of it as a smoke alarm....

[Michael Hardner]

Argus, Betsy and Jerry...

Your apprehension is based on a fallacy that Muslims will behave differently than every other people who came to the Americas. I just don't think that's true.

Using the actions of a few extremists doesn't constitute evidence, so what else do we have ?

[betsy]

Argus, Betsy and Jerry...

Your apprehension is based on a fallacy that Muslims will behave differently than every other people who came to the Americas. I just don't think that's true.

Using the actions of a few extremists doesn't constitute evidence, so what else do we have ?

Yes....actions by only a few extremists, and yet this few extremists had managed to secure some sort of special immunity status, it seems. Imagine that. If the actions of only a few extremists can manage to bend our laws.....what more if we're no longer talking about a few?

Excerpt from: The Apathy Of Defeat by Mark Steyn, Western Standard 09-25-2006

Well, it’s verboten if you’re an elderly white male of German extraction, like Reni Sentana-Reis (formerly Reinhard Gustav Mueller) of Edmonton. Herr Sentana-Reis was sentenced to 16 months in jail by the Court of Queen’s Bench for anti-Semitic screeds on his widely unread website in which he referred to Jews as “subhuman” “debauch” “demons.”

On the other hand, if you’re not an elderly white male of German extraction, if you’re a large crowd of persons of, ahem, non-Germanic extraction and you march through downtown Calgary with placards reading “DEATH TO THE JEWS,” nobody prosecutes you. If you’re the A-List imams at the Grand Mosque of Stockholm and you sell cassettes referring to Jews as “the brothers of pigs and apes” and urging believers to go out and kill them, Sweden’s Chancellor of justice, Goran lambertz, says no problem, these are just routine designations “used by one side in an on-going and far-reaching conflict where call to arms and insults are part of the everyday climate in the rhetoric that surrounds this conflict” – i.e, threatening to kill Jew pigs is just part of the vibrant multicultural tapestry.

[betsy]

Argus, Betsy and Jerry...

Your apprehension is based on a fallacy that Muslims will behave differently than every other people who came to the Americas. I just don't think that's true.

How can you say it's a "fallacy?" How do you support your assertion that it is a "fallacy?"

My apprehension is based I guess to the fact that of all the different other people who came to the Americas....no other people had displayed such capability for violence as a mob....shown on tv. And if you have those people being doctrined into believing that all non-believers must die....isn't that reason enough to be apprehensive?

[Remiel]

If a large group of Jews were to walk down the same street waving signs reading " Death to Neo-Nazi Scum " , do you really think anyone would be eager to go out and start arresting them and busting chops either?

You're being victimized by sensationalism.

[betsy]

If a large group of Jews were to walk down the same street waving signs reading " Death to Neo-Nazi Scum " , do you really think anyone would be eager to go out and start arresting them and busting chops either?

I've never seen any group of Jews protesting...even when they're being clobbered. They haven't got that reputation.

On the other hand when a certain group of people calls for "DEATH TO ALL JEWS!", you can bet it is not something to be taken lightly.

[betsy]

Argus, Betsy and Jerry...

Your apprehension is based on a fallacy that Muslims will behave differently than every other people who came to the Americas. I just don't think that's true.

Using the actions of a few extremists doesn't constitute evidence, so what else do we have ?

Some has the power to influence.

Taken from: CANADA'S NUTTIEST PROFESSORS, by Terry O'Neill, with files from Andrea Mrozek

Western Standard, 09-25-2006

SUNERA THOBANI, Assistant Professor

Centre fo Women's and Gender Studies, University of B.C.

Thobani was among the first outside of Gaza to revel in the murder of thousands of Americans at the hands of al Qaeda's killers on Sep 11, 2001. Scant weeks afterwar, she told an Ottawa feminist conference that Americans were the real terrorists. The US, she said, was "the most dangerous and powerful global force unleashing horrific levels of violence....US foreign policy is soaked in blood." Even B.C.'s premier condemned the speech as "hateful."

Still, universities are buying what this firebrand feminist is selling. The former president of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women is a rising star, having been appointed Ruth Wynn Woodward Endowed Professor in Women's Studies at Simon Fraser University in 1996 before she even finished her doctoral dissertation. She gained her current post in 2000. Though Thobani hails from Tanzania - where sharia law is still practiced - she's said that we're the real misogynists, stating: "there will be no emancipation for women anywhere on this planet until the western dominaton of this planet is ended."

[betsy]

You're being victimized by sensationalism.

I guess the Pope was victimized by "sensationalism" too....seeing all the violence erupting and the nun being killed. No wonder he couldn't stop from apologising. He even started inviting!

So were the Germans. Didn't take long to convince that director to pull out her opera. And there was not even any hint of erupting violence about it too! Sensationalism made them "jump the gun" I guess!

[Michael Hardner]

How can you say it's a "fallacy?" How do you support your assertion that it is a "fallacy?"

My apprehension is based I guess to the fact that of all the different other people who came to the Americas....no other people had displayed such capability for violence as a mob....shown on tv. And if you have those people being doctrined into believing that all non-believers must die....isn't that reason enough to be apprehensive?

Mine is the counter assertion. The assertion would state that Muslims are different from every other race on the earth somehow. That's what I'd like to see proven.

"no other people had displayed such capability for violence as a mob....shown on tv. "

It used to be blacks that people were afraid of, in the 1960s. Times change, I suppose.

I have been close friends with people of every race, and I don't see the reason to fear any of them.

[betsy]

I have been close friends with people of every race, and I don't see the reason to fear any of them.

I've had friends from different race. We still keep in touch with a Muslim couple we've known for about 3 years now. My husband had sold a business to another Muslim some time ago...and we patronize that business every now and then.

I am not generalizing all Muslims. I know for a fact that a lot of Muslims just want to live their lives like any other normal Canadians. That is why I keep referring to the word "extremists."

[betsy]

How can you say it's a "fallacy?" How do you support your assertion that it is a "fallacy?"

My apprehension is based I guess to the fact that of all the different other people who came to the Americas....no other people had displayed such capability for violence as a mob....shown on tv. And if you have those people being doctrined into believing that all non-believers must die....isn't that reason enough to be apprehensive?

Mine is the counter assertion. The assertion would state that Muslims are different from every other race on the earth somehow. That's what I'd like to see proven.

The terrorists acts done for their religion...the fanatical fervor their religion can stir is unlike that of other religion that I know of. The only ones that come close are the Japanese (the kamikaze) during WW2....who did the suicide bombings for their Emperor.

We live in an enlightened world now. Information abound. Globalization. Inter-racial relationships. So the world is so well-used to multiple cultures and had accepted differences in the physical looks, cultures and beliefs....which is a far cry from the past, that's why probably Blacks were "feared" by some. Did the Blacks demonstrate anything similar to the kind of demonstration shown by certain group of people now?

But tell me, in the face of all these violent protests and acts of terrorism all over the world, all in the name of religion....I'd like to hear your proof backing your counter assertion.

[Argus]

How can you say it's a "fallacy?" How do you support your assertion that it is a "fallacy?"

My apprehension is based I guess to the fact that of all the different other people who came to the Americas....no other people had displayed such capability for violence as a mob....shown on tv. And if you have those people being doctrined into believing that all non-believers must die....isn't that reason enough to be apprehensive?

Mine is the counter assertion. The assertion would state that Muslims are different from every other race on the earth somehow. That's what I'd like to see proven.

What is the main difference between Muslims and every other group which has come to Canada? I think the difference is in the belief among Muslims that the Koran is the only reference anyone needs not only for governing themselves, but for governing society, government, everything. Now righteous Christians might think the government should rule by Christian ideals, but the righteous Muslim goes further - that government must rule by Muslim rules and laws as set out in the Koran. Further, this is not merely a guide, not merely a suggeston. To the righteous Muslim, to oppose rule by the Koran is to not be a proper Muslim at all.

I am not speaking here of extremists, but mainstream Islam. Mainstream Islam makes no distinction between ones private life and public life, between "the bedrooms of the nation" and the boardrooms. Islam is a guide for all behaviour at all times. Anything which is against the rules and laws as set out in the Koran is against God. And those who are against God must die.

Another major difference between Muslims and others is the obsession they have with their faith. I'm not speaking here of the difference between a secular society like ours, and the more religious peoples of the world. Observant Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc., are less obsessed with their religion in their lives. August posted a speech by the former PM of Malaysia recently. The pertinent part was quoted by Kimmy.

Then, the great Islamic civilisation went into decline. With hindsight, we could pinpoint the turning point that marked the decline. This was when the learned Muslims interpreted knowledge acquisition as enjoined by the Quran in Iqraq or “Read" to mean acquiring only the knowledge of the Islamic religion, rejecting other knowledge as un-Islamic as giving no merit in the afterlife. Following this, the Muslims gave up the study of science, mathematics, medicine and other so-called worldly disciplines. Instead they spent much time debating on Islamic teachings and interpretations, on Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic practices. The differences in the interpretations and understanding of Islam led to a break-up of the ummah and the founding of numerous sects, cults and schools. Such were the differences between them that they often kill and war against each other. To this day they are blowing up each other’s mosques to the delight of their detractors. Almost at the same time of the Muslims rejection of worldly knowledge which started them on their decline, the Europeans, benefiting from the early studies and researches of the Muslim scholars achieved 1their Renaissance and went on to develop their countries until they were able to threaten and dominate us, with their wealth, knowledge and military power

Muslims became a backward people because they decided that a true Muslim must study only Islam. Universities in Muslim nations are jammed with students studying the Koran, and arguing various interpretations. They feel things like Science, Mathematics and Engineering are unworthy of them. That cultural tradition is one which rejects not only modern social beliefs, but modern empthasis on science as well.

Given the above it is clear that no true Muslim would ever just blend into Canada's secular, technical society. It would be a rejection of Islam. They might live here, but their hearts are with the "Ummah". Their lives are dedicated to Islam, and to living up to the Ideals of Islam. To do so you must reject almost everything about Canada's modern society. To not do so is to no longer be a Muslim.

When has Canada ever had such immigrants in such numbers?

[Argus]

Argus, Betsy and Jerry...

Your apprehension is based on a fallacy that Muslims will behave differently than every other people who came to the Americas. I just don't think that's true.

Using the actions of a few extremists doesn't constitute evidence, so what else do we have ?

A few extremists? You mean, like, the leaders of mainstream Islam are much more friendly and tolerant of outsiders?

[Michael Hardner]

I've had friends from different race. We still keep in touch with a Muslim couple we've known for about 3 years now. My husband had sold a business to another Muslim some time ago...and we patronize that business every now and then.

I am not generalizing all Muslims. I know for a fact that a lot of Muslims just want to live their lives like any other normal Canadians. That is why I keep referring to the word "extremists."

Well, I don't understand then why you fear the extremists, if you have Muslim friends and acquaintences then you know that they're not all 'like that'.

[Michael Hardner]

Did the Blacks demonstrate anything similar to the kind of demonstration shown by certain group of people now?

What group ? Their nation, their race, or their religion ? You used the term 'extremists' and that's the best way of grouping these people together, in my opinion.

[Michael Hardner]

What is the main difference between Muslims and every other group which has come to Canada? I think the difference is in the belief among Muslims that the Koran is the only reference anyone needs not only for governing themselves, but for governing society, government, everything. Now righteous Christians might think the government should rule by Christian ideals, but the righteous Muslim goes further - that government must rule by Muslim rules and laws as set out in the Koran. Further, this is not merely a guide, not merely a suggeston. To the righteous Muslim, to oppose rule by the Koran is to not be a proper Muslim at all.

I am not speaking here of extremists, but mainstream Islam. Mainstream Islam makes no distinction between ones private life and public life, between "the bedrooms of the nation" and the boardrooms. Islam is a guide for all behaviour at all times. Anything which is against the rules and laws as set out in the Koran is against God. And those who are against God must die.

Another major difference between Muslims and others is the obsession they have with their faith. I'm not speaking here of the difference between a secular society like ours, and the more religious peoples of the world. Observant Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc., are less obsessed with their religion in their lives. August posted a speech by the former PM of Malaysia recently. The pertinent part was quoted by Kimmy.

Then, the great Islamic civilisation went into decline. With hindsight, we could pinpoint the turning point that marked the decline. This was when the learned Muslims interpreted knowledge acquisition as enjoined by the Quran in Iqraq or “Read" to mean acquiring only the knowledge of the Islamic religion, rejecting other knowledge as un-Islamic as giving no merit in the afterlife. Following this, the Muslims gave up the study of science, mathematics, medicine and other so-called worldly disciplines. Instead they spent much time debating on Islamic teachings and interpretations, on Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic practices. The differences in the interpretations and understanding of Islam led to a break-up of the ummah and the founding of numerous sects, cults and schools. Such were the differences between them that they often kill and war against each other. To this day they are blowing up each other’s mosques to the delight of their detractors. Almost at the same time of the Muslims rejection of worldly knowledge which started them on their decline, the Europeans, benefiting from the early studies and researches of the Muslim scholars achieved 1their Renaissance and went on to develop their countries until they were able to threaten and dominate us, with their wealth, knowledge and military power

Again, you speak of religious extremists - that exists in every faith. To blame it on the faith alone removes too many contexts. Do you know any 2nd or 3rd generation Muslim immigrants ? They lose their faith as all of us have.

Muslims became a backward people because they decided that a true Muslim must study only Islam. Universities in Muslim nations are jammed with students studying the Koran, and arguing various interpretations. They feel things like Science, Mathematics and Engineering are unworthy of them. That cultural tradition is one which rejects not only modern social beliefs, but modern empthasis on science as well.

That is nonsense. I have seen the resumes of many Muslims who have come to Canada with Masters degrees in Engineering and Science.

Given the above it is clear that no true Muslim would ever just blend into Canada's secular, technical society. It would be a rejection of Islam. They might live here, but their hearts are with the "Ummah". Their lives are dedicated to Islam, and to living up to the Ideals of Islam. To do so you must reject almost everything about Canada's modern society. To not do so is to no longer be a Muslim.

Again, its ridiculous. You would think that there's no such thing as an educated Muslim by your post.

[Remiel]

We do not live in an Enlightened Society. We live in the illusion of an Enlightened Society. An illusion that is quickly fading.

[betsy]

Did the Blacks demonstrate anything similar to the kind of demonstration shown by certain group of people now?

What group ? Their nation, their race, or their religion ? You used the term 'extremists' and that's the best way of grouping these people together, in my opinion.

Good point. Because we're not talking about race actually. We're talking about a religious group fuelled by potent religious teachings.

BUT EXTREMISTS DO EXIST! Are you now saying that they don't?

...or is it no longer politically correct as well to use that term anymore?

Is this part of what you admonish us to do, "Self-censorship"? Just in case we offend anyone?

[betsy]

I've had friends from different race. We still keep in touch with a Muslim couple we've known for about 3 years now. My husband had sold a business to another Muslim some time ago...and we patronize that business every now and then.

I am not generalizing all Muslims. I know for a fact that a lot of Muslims just want to live their lives like any other normal Canadians. That is why I keep referring to the word "extremists."

Well, I don't understand then why you fear the extremists, if you have Muslim friends and acquaintences then you know that they're not all 'like that'.

And I've told you: I know they're not all like that. And I've explained to you about the extremists in the posts above, had given you not only one or two...but several proofs or facts on which I base my apprehensions. From the zealotry fueled by religious faith (very very deadly), to public displays of violence, to the power by those who can wield influence among students... to the troubling response of Liberal thinkers...to the scary suggestion of Jack, etc..,

But now it's your turn. Let's hear your proof or something other than just a personal opinion or observation why you just dismissed what we say as "fallacy."