Quebecers intolerant of immigrants

[Leafless]

gc1765

It seems you don't understand what I am saying and I don't understand your total inability not to understand. If you want to play word games or purposely destruct or distort what I said, you do it by yourself.

Sec. 15.(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination as you cannot legislate rights based in a society driven by DEMOCRATIC concerns without major problems.

The governments job is to protect the rights of Canadians not legislate and promote rights according to their interpretation or whim.

It is society's responsibility to establish it's own social concerns like they do in Quebec, not governments.

Equality SEC.15(1) is is failing badly especially in Quebec. Just ask any White English speaking or Black English speaking Canadian presently living in Quebec.

Where is the EQUALITY???

[gc1765]

gc1765

It seems you don't understand what I am saying and I don't understand your total inability not to understand. If you want to play word games or purposely destruct or distort what I said, you do it by yourself.

Sec. 15.(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination as you cannot legislate rights based in a society driven by DEMOCRATIC concerns without major problems.

The governments job is to protect the rights of Canadians not legislate and promote rights according to their interpretation or whim.

It is society's responsibility to establish it's own social concerns like they do in Quebec, not governments.

Equality SEC.15(1) is is failing badly especially in Quebec. Just ask any White English speaking or Black English speaking Canadian presently living in Quebec.

Where is the EQUALITY???

I didn't distort anything you've said.

The reason why I don't understand what you are saying is because you are not backing up your statements with arguments. You make statements like "Sec. 15.1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination..." but you fail to explain specifically HOW? Give me some specific examples, and perhaps I'll have something to debate. If you make statements without some sort of argument and/or examples, it's pretty hard to have a debate. So, I will reiterate, how is sec 15.1 of the charter the source of all problems related to discrimination?

[Leafless]

gc1765

It seems you don't understand what I am saying and I don't understand your total inability not to understand. If you want to play word games or purposely destruct or distort what I said, you do it by yourself.

Sec. 15.(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination as you cannot legislate rights based in a society driven by DEMOCRATIC concerns without major problems.

The governments job is to protect the rights of Canadians not legislate and promote rights according to their interpretation or whim.

It is society's responsibility to establish it's own social concerns like they do in Quebec, not governments.

Equality SEC.15(1) is is failing badly especially in Quebec. Just ask any White English speaking or Black English speaking Canadian presently living in Quebec.

Where is the EQUALITY???

I didn't distort anything you've said.

The reason why I don't understand what you are saying is because you are not backing up your statements with arguments. You make statements like "Sec. 15.1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination..." but you fail to explain specifically HOW? Give me some specific examples, and perhaps I'll have something to debate. If you make statements without some sort of argument and/or examples, it's pretty hard to have a debate. So, I will reiterate, how is sec 15.1 of the charter the source of all problems related to discrimination?

Let's talk about one initial group it opens the door to legally discriminate against other Canadians and that is Quebec.

Without the Charter Quebec would not be in the position to discriminate against English speaking Canadians or for that matter even establish themselves as a viable group different from other Canadians.

Normally to achieve these rights, like any other country, in this case, Quebec not being a country but a mere province, they would have to earn these rights by themselves and not be given this type of legislation without a national referendum.

As a matter of fact Quebec terrorist started the process to extract favourable demands from the federal government in the same manner Muslim terrorist are trying to force the world to respect and recognize it's religion utilizing terror.

I find it difficult that you don't understand when you are GIVEN legislated rights that it is much easier for those groups to utilize those rights to discriminate against others in different ways if so desired. Also I don't understand how you possibly cannot understand that this is my basis to form the argument you requested.

[gc1765]

Without the Charter Quebec would not be in the position to discriminate against English speaking Canadians or for that matter even establish themselves as a viable group different from other Canadians.

Yet another bold statement (that because of the charter quebec discriminates against english speaking canadians) with no argument to back it up. See how you've given me nothing to debate here? You're going to have to be A LOT more specific than that if you expect a debate.

As a matter of fact Quebec terrorist started the process to extract favourable demands from the federal government in the same manner Muslim terrorist are trying to force the world to respect and recognize it's religion utilizing terror.

What does quebec terrorism have to do with the charter? By the way, the october crisis was in 1970, the charter of rights and freedoms was in 1982.

I find it difficult that you don't understand when you are GIVEN legislated rights that it is much easier for those groups to utilize those rights to discriminate against others in different ways if so desired. Also I don't understand how you possibly cannot understand that this is my basis to form the argument you requested.

I don't understand why you can't give me one solid example or argument. Your statements are vague, eg "Without the charter quebec would not be in the position to discriminate against english speaking Canadians" , "Sec. 15.(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination" and "Quebecers themselves have become intolerant to others as a resulted of their artificial elevated positon afforded to them by Charter rights." just to name a few. Where is the argument? You've been unable to come up with an argument HOW and WHY those statements you made are true, despite me asking you several times to do so.

I cant understand your argument if there is no argument to understand.

[Leafless]

What does quebec terrorism have to do with the charter? By the way, the october crisis was in 1970, the charter of rights and freedoms was in 1982.

I cant understand your argument if there is no argument to understand.

Back from classes?

The October crisis was in fact in 1970 and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enacted in 1982. SO WHAT?

What I said was in effect Quebec terrorist started the process demanding federal action which DID invariably result with the discriminatory Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I say discriminatory since the Charter is basically consist of Canada's previous human rights code with a section devoted to 'OFFICIAL LANGUAGES' with the emphasis on the 'FRENCH' language which hinges on 'Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms', 'Fundamental Freedoms', Democratic Rights', 'Mobility Rights', Legal Rights', 'Equality Rights', 'Minority Language Educational Rights' and 'Enforcement'.

The English language never required any 'official status'. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms was designed especially for Quebec and not the English Canada. The federal government in other words gave Quebec ( an aloof minority group) the 'rights' to the country of Canada.

The argument concerning the topic of this post is: "What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?"

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...b4d&k=76406

So far the argument rotates around the fact on whether you think 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' is a disturbing factor concerning 'intolerance' among sub-cultures'. Do you understand the question??

Do you agree or do you not agree that in fact the 'Charter' is a piece of garbage designed by left wing politicians and serves no real purpose other to discriminate against majority concerns?? Do you understand this statement?? Please give your reply if you are able to.

Or you can address the original concern: "What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?" Do you understand the question??? Please feel free to give your response.

[Charles Anthony]

"What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?" Do you understand the question??? Please feel free to give your response.

I do not understand the question.

[Leafless]

"What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?" Do you understand the question??? Please feel free to give your response.

I do not understand the question.

This is perfectly understandable and only fuels the need for government to control undesirable immigration.

[M.Dancer]

Quebec intolerant?

That is a laugh. Of course they are. They are French - it is to be expected.

As for multicultural - and Ernst and such.

I find it interesting that the German can be convicted of a hate crime but the Islamics are not even mentioned for doing the same - or nearly the same thing.

I suppose multiculturalism has simply proved laws only apply to a certain portion of Canadian society.

Wear a towel on your head and do not shave for a couple of years and you can preach hate against the Jews. Wear a hard hat on your head, shave every day and go to jail. Gotta' love multi-culturalism.

Borg

Aside from the lack of citation in this anecdotal screed.......do you intend to offer proof or are your misanthropic observations enough?

[bk59]

OK, I'll bite.

Do you agree or do you not agree that in fact the 'Charter' is a piece of garbage designed by left wing politicians and serves no real purpose other to discriminate against majority concerns?? Do you understand this statement?? Please give your reply if you are able to.

The Charter is not a piece of garbage. Its purpose is to ensure that all Canadians are treated equally. Could this discriminate against a decision supported by the majority of Canadians? Yes, actually. As an example, if 51% of Canadians all of a sudden decided that everyone who speaks English as their first language should no longer be allowed to vote, the Charter would put a stop to that discrimination. Why? As a society we say that characteristics like language or religion should not affect your rights as a citizen, and that even a majority decision cannot strip those rights away. A look at Germany in the 1930's should, I hope, show enough of a rationale for this principle.

Speaking of discrimination based on language...

Without the Charter Quebec would not be in the position to discriminate against English speaking Canadians or for that matter even establish themselves as a viable group different from other Canadians.

Normally to achieve these rights, like any other country, in this case, Quebec not being a country but a mere province, they would have to earn these rights by themselves and not be given this type of legislation without a national referendum.

Please give a specific example of how Quebec is discriminating against English speaking Canadians. By specific, I mean something like: "Quebec has passed a law that requires all English speaking Canadians within its borders to wear pink tutus at all times."

If we are talking about Quebec's language laws, then these are provincial laws that have nothing to do with the Charter. And provincial laws would certainly not have to pass any national referendum.

But perhaps you were referring to the fact that the Charter enshrines both English and French as official languages of Canada...

The English language never required any 'official status'. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms was designed especially for Quebec and not the English Canada. The federal government in other words gave Quebec ( an aloof minority group) the 'rights' to the country of Canada.

When Canada was formed, it was formed giving consideration to both French and English speaking populations. The Charter reinforces this attitude, saying that at the federal level both French and English are to be treated equally. Remember though, that this goes both ways. Minority English communities in French speaking areas can expect to communicate with the federal government in English, just as minority French communities in English speaking areas can expect to communicate with the federal government in French. I admit to being confused by the statement that the "federal government... gave Quebec... the 'rights' to the country of Canada." What rights does Quebec have over any other province, or anyone or anything outside of its borders? (None.) In fact, these sections of the Charter protect English populations within Quebec at the federal level. Quebec has always had the right, and continues to have the right, to do whatever it wants within its provincial jurisdiction.

Which brings us to federal jurisdiction...

Sec. 15.(1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the source of all the problems related to discrimination as you cannot legislate rights based in a society driven by DEMOCRATIC concerns without major problems.

The governments job is to protect the rights of Canadians not legislate and promote rights according to their interpretation or whim.

It is society's responsibility to establish it's own social concerns like they do in Quebec, not governments.

You are right in that the government's job is to protect the rights of Canadians. However, when you go on to say that the government's job is not to legislate according to their interpretation... well... that just indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of Canada's legal system. The federal government is elected by the people of Canada. Once in office, Parliament can enact any legislation that it wants within the federal jurisdiction. Any legislation. (The exception being that it cannot go against Canada's Constitution, which includes the Charter. For example, Parliament cannot pass legislation that would go against section 7 of the Charter, the right to life, liberty and security of the person.)

To say that society should "establish its own social concerns", not governments, makes no sense. How else does society do this unless through its elected government? And if Canadian society is unhappy with the laws being passed by Parliament, then they get to vote in someone else at the next federal election. Then that new Parliament can pass whatever legislation that it wants.

So, not only can Parliament legislate rights, but it already has legislated rights. In fact, it was legislating rights even before the Charter. You say this cannot be done without "major problems". Please provide a specific instance of a major problem that has come about because of the Charter. Better yet, please show me how the Charter was the source of even one problem leading to discrimination.

Sorry for the long post, but there is one last thing I would like to address...

The 'winner' was an analogy to what can be viewed by some Canadians including Quebecer's as the 'White ,English speaking, Christian Canadian or the dominant group in Canada (winners).

For the federal government give away rights (Charter of Rights) to groups to 'equalize' the White, English dominant factor does not really work as it creates cultural sub-categories and results in minority dominant groups. It also discriminates against the White, English speaking majority.

When the federal government enacted the Charter, they were not giving away rights to groups to equalize some other group (in your post white, English speaking Canadians). The Charter specifies that every Canadian citizen has certain rights. These apply to your white, English speaking Canadians just as much as they apply to anyone else. How then can these rights discriminate against white, English speaking Canadians? How does allowing a French speaking community in (for example) Alberta access to federal government institutions using French hurt any white, English speaking Canadian anywhere?

In the end, the Charter protects every Canadian citizen equally. Even in a democracy, sometimes this means that the majority is wrong. After all, you don't want the majority to have the ability to ban Christianity from being practiced in Canada, do you? These rights were enshrined by the Parliament that was elected by Canadians, and as such reflects the democratic ideals of our society. Vague statements will not convince me that the Charter has somehow damaged Canada, or that it has somehow elevated certain people to positions where they have more rights than anyone else.

[Rue]

Mr. Anthony all I get for feeding pigeons is having them poop on my head. They are flying rats and I do not see how some people eat them. I did have one as a pet but it made such a damn mess as soon as I could get it to fly I let it go. Now I had a pet crow but they are cleaner and much smarter and remember things and will peck you on the ear and steal stuff and the crow I raised would come back even two years later and land on my shoulder. But this is not why we have this post.

As a former Montrealer to answer Leaf's question, I would say I have always believed that the Quebec seperatist movement was racist. We always heard talk of being Purlains and seperatists would talk about who was more pure French in ancestry. Mr. Parizeau was a prime example of this kind of idiot who felt his living in France and speaking a sort of French academic tone made him purlains and more Quebecois then others.

Of course seperatism in Quebec is tied to wanting to be with other people who are of the same culture.

It was never just about language. People from French Africa, Haiti, French speaking Arab peoples from Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria, they have all experienced that it is not justa bout speaking French it is also about being purlains or white French from Normandy, etc.

The racism in Quebec and in particular in Montreal towards people from Haiti is well known. Hell you had a Montreal police man shoot a Haitian in the back in broad day-light and get away with it. The witnesses saw this cop shoot the guy right in the back after taunting him.

I have personally seen Montreal police taunt Haitians and the only reason I did not get my head punched in is because at the time I was working for the federal government and had an i.d. card with sufficient authority

so that when I showed it to them and told them to leave the guy alone they drove off.

No things are not peechy swell in Quebec as long as you speak French. Its a bit more complex then that.

But for me there is racism and immigration or new Canadian intolerance or intolerance for native peoples everywhere. I think it just for me is a bit more meaningful coming from Quebec and listening to all this b.s. about how the Parti Quebecois was a party of equality and welcomed anyone who speaks French. Yah right.

Mr. Parizeau was a complete racist although Rene Levesque genuinely was not and genuinely got along with all groups. Mr. Levesque was one of the few Parti Quebecois people above this nonsense. Likewise Lucien Bouchard. They were good people unlike many of their followers. I also think Mr. Duceppes genuinely has tried to distance himself from the racist element of his seperatist followers but it is always there. The nationalism in Quebec goes back to their love in with Real Couettes and the Social Creditistes and Marcel Dupplessis and the Union Nationales and their love in with facism and Mussolini and the anti-semitism taught to them by the Catholic Church. Its still very much a society afraid of culture or zenophobic. Part of the desire to stay French is a fear of other cultures changing them.

All I know is I will always be a Habs fan and a true Habs fan is multi-cultural and bi-lingual by nature.

[Leafless]

The Charter is not a piece of garbage. Its purpose is to ensure that all Canadians are treated equally. Could this discriminate against a decision supported by the majority of Canadians? Yes, actually. As an example, if 51% of Canadians all of a sudden decided that everyone who speaks English as their first language should no longer be allowed to vote, the Charter would put a stop to that discrimination. Why? As a society we say that characteristics like language or religion should not affect your rights as a citizen, and that even a majority decision cannot strip those rights away. A look at Germany in the 1930's should, I hope, show enough of a rationale for this principle.

Due to the length of your post we will address a single issue at a time.

Prior to the Charter we had both federal and provincial human rights code, the federal one being the Canadian Bill of Rights along with separate provincial human rights protection.

Pertaining to language rights Quebec has always had the right to it's language, religion and civil law within the confines of it's borders.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is an extreme left wing application of dictated rights that advances Quebec interest without the federal government ever implementing a national referendum to allow Canadians of all political affiliations to decide decide the Quebec language question.

How can a government possibly or fairly ever arrive at a conclusion (pertaining to the Charter) when it is totally engulfed with political biases, at that time Liberal biases.

To make matters even worse Sec.16(3)- states-Nothing in this Charter limits the authority of parliament or a legislature to advance the equality of status or use of English and French. We know they are not making reference to the English language.

This is totally undemocratic and condescending to Canadians who believe in a free democratic society.

How can you possibly advance the rights of a French minority language when it has no legal authority outside of it's own province? This is outright discrimination of the worst possible kind being implemented by a Liberal government who obviously assumed no one other party would ever be in power.

[Leafless]

Please give a specific example of how Quebec is discriminating against English speaking Canadians. By specific, I mean something like: "Quebec has passed a law that requires all English speaking Canadians within its borders to wear pink tutus at all times."

Quebec language laws entitle Quebec to use it's language within it's borders.

But what it did it is used the right to make it's language 'official' within it's borders something all provinces in Canada have the right to do, but to date none have and for obvious reasons.

It discriminates.

Can you imagine Quebec's reaction if Ontario designated itself 'officially English'. This is something I wish they would do for protection against artificial forced bilingualism, like what has happened in Ottawa, Ontario.

Ottawa is not officially bilingual but federal linguistic interference promotes and encourages the French language in a province that is not officially bilingual and has spread to private business now making it hard to obtain employment in Ottawa unless you are bilingual. Ottawa is majority English.

Another aspect of Quebec discrimination is it uses the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms while at the same time it employs it's own provincial 214-item or so 'French Language Charter'.

This French Charter discriminates against federal Canadian Charter rights.

Also in Ontario francophone's enjoy the privileges of Ontario tax payer funded services relating to the 'French Languages Services Act', something Quebec does not give Quebec English residents to enjoy similar services in Quebec dedicated to it's English component.

[gc1765]

Quebec language laws entitle Quebec to use it's language within it's borders.

But what it did it is used the right to make it's language 'official' within it's borders something all provinces in Canada have the right to do, but to date none have and for obvious reasons.

It discriminates.

Can you imagine Quebec's reaction if Ontario designated itself 'officially English'. This is something I wish they would do for protection against artificial forced bilingualism, like what has happened in Ottawa, Ontario.

Ottawa is not officially bilingual but federal linguistic interference promotes and encourages the French language in a province that is not officially bilingual and has spread to private business now making it hard to obtain employment in Ottawa unless you are bilingual. Ottawa is majority English.

Another aspect of Quebec discrimination is it uses the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms while at the same time it employs it's own provincial 214-item or so 'French Language Charter'.

This French Charter discriminates against federal Canadian Charter rights.

Also in Ontario francophone's enjoy the privileges of Ontario tax payer funded services relating to the 'French Languages Services Act', something Quebec does not give Quebec English residents to enjoy similar services in Quebec dedicated to it's English component.

First off, I would like to say thank you for finally providing an example. English is the language of Ontario, and french is the official language of Quebec. Canada is bilingual, and so is ottawa. So, where's the problem? Private businesses can hire who they like. They are going to hire whoever is best for the job, period. If Quebec is preventing bilingualism, it is not because of the charter as you have stated. In fact, it is the charter which is (trying to) prevent this from happening Link

Now, care to back up this statement with an example "official multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims" or "and that is the damaging aspect of multiculturalism in Canada and how it is creating NEW levels of bigotry and racism." or "Official Multiculturalism Policy' is what leads cultures to intolerance."

.... if you can.

[M.Dancer]

All I know is I will always be a Habs fan and a true Habs fan is multi-cultural and bi-lingual by nature.

Les Canadiens sont la.........

.......When I left Montreal in '83....and arrived in Toronto.....I was absolutely floored by the racism I encountered.....and by people who spoke the same language as me towards people who spoke the same language as me......

Being an anglophone.....the world had always been divided along linguistic lines.....you never really noticeed that your mates were Italians or Irish, Japanese or Jamaican...as long as the frogs at the other end of the park were giving our lot the evil eye.......

[Leafless]

First off, I would like to say thank you for finally providing an example. English is the language of Ontario, and french is the official language of Quebec. Canada is bilingual, and so is ottawa. So, where's the problem? Private businesses can hire who they like. They are going to hire whoever is best for the job, period. If Quebec is preventing bilingualism, it is not because of the charter as you have stated. In fact, it is the charter which is (trying to) prevent this from happening Link

Now, care to back up this statement with an example "official multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims" or "and that is the damaging aspect of multiculturalism in Canada and how it is creating NEW levels of bigotry and racism." or "Official Multiculturalism Policy' is what leads cultures to intolerance."

.... if you can.

1.- English is the de facto language of Ontario, NOT official like Quebec chose freely to make itself. In fact I think even though Ontario has the legal right to declare itself 'officially English' it would have a hard time or even be impossible doing so due to federal interference. Windsor, Ontario if I remember correctly, tried to make it's city 'officially English' but ran into so many roadblocks it was unable to designate itself 'officially English'.

But this raises an EXCELLENT question and that is: Why has NO other province in Canada ever attempted to do what Quebec has done and officially designate their majority English provinces 'English'?

2.- Canada is NOT 'officially bilingual' and neither is 'OTTAWA' 'officially bilingual'.

3.- The problem is that the federal government actively promotes bilingualism in Canadian provinces especially 'Ottawa' Ontario. Like I mentioned previously it now hard for a majority English resident of Ottawa to find employment in English only, in their own majority English city because of federal government interference that promotes bilingualism within that city with various incentives. This has resulted in forcing the majority English in Ottawa to become fluently bilingual in order to gain employment.

In other words the federal government has been successful in forcing it's version of 'federal official bilingualism' outside of it's federal jurisdiction into a private provincial municipality in which it has virtual no business in provincial or municiple concerns.

But the federal government DISCRIMINATES badly against the English in Ottawa and the other Canadian provinces by not actively promoting bilingualism in Quebec.

4.- Quebec discriminates against English Canada by CONTINIUALLY every five years, renewing the 'Notwithstanding Clause' it uses to implement it's discriminatory 'French language Charter' and it's language laws.

The federal government 'has continued to look the other way' when Quebec comes around every five years for renewal of the 'Notwithstanding Clause' since it requires a 'substantial reason' to continue to use this clause. By doing this the federal government again DISCRIMINATES against the 'rest of Canada' since the 'French Language Charter flies in the face of the federal 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' that has PRECIDENCE over Quebec's 'French Language Charter'.

5.- Pertaining to: "Official multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims"

It does just that.

For instance Quebec being a sub-culture, federal charter rights and it's 'French Language Charter' allows Quebecer's who wish to choose to 'flaunt it's language and culture' in the face of it's cultural minorities, whether being English, Black etc. is a demonstration of 'intolerance'.

Federal Charter right also for example in the case of Muslims and Islam to flaunt it's religion and associated internal religious politics in the face of Canada's major Christian religion. Examples of this is Muslim objection to traditional Christian holidays and customs etc. along with trying to impose it's 'Shariah Law' as a legal entity.

There are many examples how bigotry and racism can be applied without anything in the form of written policy, as was the situation down in the American South, simply extreme unjust hatred against Blacks.

[M.Dancer]

2.- Canada is NOT 'officially bilingual' and neither is 'OTTAWA' 'officially bilingual'.

Har!

Languages:

English (official) 59.3%, French (official) 23.2%, other 17.5%

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...os/ca.html#Govt

Official Languages Act

An Act Respecting the Official Languages of Canada (Bill C-120) became law in July, 1969. The bill provides for the following:

English and French are Canada’s official languages.

Both languages are used in federal institutions and Crown Corporations.

Federal services are available in both official languages in Ottawa.

Public signs identifying federal offices are in both official languages.

Federal court decisions are published in both official languages.

A commissioner of official languages ensures compliance with the Act, investigates complaints, and reports annually to Parliament.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/cultu...sm/charter.html

[gc1765]

1.- English is the de facto language of Ontario, NOT official like Quebec chose freely to make itself. In fact I think even though Ontario has the legal right to declare itself 'officially English' it would have a hard time or even be impossible doing so due to federal interference. Windsor, Ontario if I remember correctly, tried to make it's city 'officially English' but ran into so many roadblocks it was unable to designate itself 'officially English'.

But this raises an EXCELLENT question and that is: Why has NO other province in Canada ever attempted to do what Quebec has done and officially designate their majority English provinces 'English'?

Thanks again for your response. I never said english was the official language, I said it was the language of ontario (as in the de facto language of ontario like you pointed out). My point is that most of Ontario is english only. I have never been exposed to french except perhaps a few french classes I had to take in elementary school. Is this what you mean by discrimination, because you had to learn french in school? On the other hand, 90% of my classes were in english, so you could equally say that I had english forced upon me. So I don't see the discrimination there.

2.- Canada is NOT 'officially bilingual' and neither is 'OTTAWA' 'officially bilingual'.

16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

Link

Ottawa

3.- The problem is that the federal government actively promotes bilingualism in Canadian provinces especially 'Ottawa' Ontario. Like I mentioned previously it now hard for a majority English resident of Ottawa to find employment in English only, in their own majority English city because of federal government interference that promotes bilingualism within that city with various incentives. This has resulted in forcing the majority English in Ottawa to become fluently bilingual in order to gain employment.

Like I mentioned before, private businesses are going to hire the best person for the job, period. In the federal government a person must be bilingual, but that means it works both ways and a french speaker must learn english.

But the federal government DISCRIMINATES badly against the English in Ottawa and the other Canadian provinces by not actively promoting bilingualism in Quebec.

I thought this was about the Charter. I provided a link earlier about the Charter trying to prevent unilingualism from happening in quebec. Care to comment on that?

4.- Quebec discriminates against English Canada by CONTINIUALLY every five years, renewing the 'Notwithstanding Clause' it uses to implement it's discriminatory 'French language Charter' and it's language laws.

The federal government 'has continued to look the other way' when Quebec comes around every five years for renewal of the 'Notwithstanding Clause' since it requires a 'substantial reason' to continue to use this clause. By doing this the federal government again DISCRIMINATES against the 'rest of Canada' since the 'French Language Charter flies in the face of the federal 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' that has PRECIDENCE over Quebec's 'French Language Charter'.

I see you made my point for me. So it is the charter trying to prevent this from happening afterall. It's only using the notwithstanding clause that they can get away with this.

5.- Pertaining to: "Official multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims"

It does just that.

For instance Quebec being a sub-culture, federal charter rights and it's 'French Language Charter' allows Quebecer's who wish to choose to 'flaunt it's language and culture' in the face of it's cultural minorities, whether being English, Black etc. is a demonstration of 'intolerance'.

How exactly are quebecers "flaunting" their language and culture to minorities? Earlier you talked about the majority losing righs to minorities because of the charter. Now you are talking about the majority (french speaking quebecers) intolerant of the minority.

Federal Charter right also for example in the case of Muslims and Islam to flaunt it's religion and associated internal religious politics in the face of Canada's major Christian religion. Examples of this is Muslim objection to traditional Christian holidays and customs etc. along with trying to impose it's 'Shariah Law' as a legal entity.

Shariah law will never be in place in Canada unless that's what the majority of people want. Even then, it would have a hard time taking hold in Canada thanks to...yep you guessed it, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[bk59]

1.- English is the de facto language of Ontario, NOT official like Quebec chose freely to make itself. In fact I think even though Ontario has the legal right to declare itself 'officially English' it would have a hard time or even be impossible doing so due to federal interference. Windsor, Ontario if I remember correctly, tried to make it's city 'officially English' but ran into so many roadblocks it was unable to designate itself 'officially English'.

But this raises an EXCELLENT question and that is: Why has NO other province in Canada ever attempted to do what Quebec has done and officially designate their majority English provinces 'English'?

2.- Canada is NOT 'officially bilingual' and neither is 'OTTAWA' 'officially bilingual'.

3.- The problem is that the federal government actively promotes bilingualism in Canadian provinces especially 'Ottawa' Ontario. Like I mentioned previously it now hard for a majority English resident of Ottawa to find employment in English only, in their own majority English city because of federal government interference that promotes bilingualism within that city with various incentives. This has resulted in forcing the majority English in Ottawa to become fluently bilingual in order to gain employment.

In other words the federal government has been successful in forcing it's version of 'federal official bilingualism' outside of it's federal jurisdiction into a private provincial municipality in which it has virtual no business in provincial or municiple concerns.

But the federal government DISCRIMINATES badly against the English in Ottawa and the other Canadian provinces by not actively promoting bilingualism in Quebec.

4.- Quebec discriminates against English Canada by CONTINIUALLY every five years, renewing the 'Notwithstanding Clause' it uses to implement it's discriminatory 'French language Charter' and it's language laws.

The federal government 'has continued to look the other way' when Quebec comes around every five years for renewal of the 'Notwithstanding Clause' since it requires a 'substantial reason' to continue to use this clause. By doing this the federal government again DISCRIMINATES against the 'rest of Canada' since the 'French Language Charter flies in the face of the federal 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' that has PRECIDENCE over Quebec's 'French Language Charter'.

5.- Pertaining to: "Official multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims"

It does just that.

For instance Quebec being a sub-culture, federal charter rights and it's 'French Language Charter' allows Quebecer's who wish to choose to 'flaunt it's language and culture' in the face of it's cultural minorities, whether being English, Black etc. is a demonstration of 'intolerance'.

Federal Charter right also for example in the case of Muslims and Islam to flaunt it's religion and associated internal religious politics in the face of Canada's major Christian religion. Examples of this is Muslim objection to traditional Christian holidays and customs etc. along with trying to impose it's 'Shariah Law' as a legal entity.

There are many examples how bigotry and racism can be applied without anything in the form of written policy, as was the situation down in the American South, simply extreme unjust hatred against Blacks.

There seem to be a few problems with your facts. This is taken from Ontario's official webpage:

English is Ontario's official language, although French language rights have been extended to the legal and educational systems. There are entire communities where French is as easily spoken as English, thanks to their French-Canadian history.

In fact, many provinces have official languages. Wikipedia lists Alberta as English, Manitoba as bilingual, etc. As for Canada and Ottawa, other posters have clearly shown that they are officially bilingual as well.

I think a lot of your arguments about minority language rights are contradictory. You accuse Quebec of discriminating against the English language minority communities within Quebec, and then talk about how horrible and undemocratic it is that French language minority communities in Ontario have the right to use French. You can't have it both ways. Either English and French minority communities both have the right to use their choice of official language, or they both don't.

If your problem is with bilingualism itself, then I'm afraid you'll have to go back in time and find a way to build Canada without both English and French cultures. Both languages and cultures were an important part of Canada's beginnings and both continue to be important today.

Regardless, none of what you are saying now has in any way supported your statements that the Charter is a piece of garbage. In fact, many of your arguments appeal to the Charter as something good. (e.g. When you talk about trying to give English language minority groups in Quebec more rights - something the Charter specifically addresses.)

[Leafless]

There are three people replying to to the same issue's, so I will try to reply to the main concerns the best I can.

You can post all the numbers you want pertaining to English-French population numbers in Ottawa, Ontario. Even at that the only reason French numbers grew in Ottawa was due to the relatively new amalgamation of some small townships around Ottawa including Eastern French townships.

BTW, I fully believe part of the reason for amalgamation was to increase French numbers in Ottawa for political purposes. It certainly wasn't to save money as was the original sales pitch. Ottawa mayor and Liberal freindly Bob Chiralli would certainly know all about this finer point.

The FACT is city of Ottawa nor the province of Ontario are NOT officially bilingual.

But UNLIKE anywhere in discriminatory Quebec, Ottawa, Ontario does have a civilized bilingual policy and did for many years.

Canada does have two official languages English and French BUT they ONLY pertain to federal government entities and are NOT official PROVINCIALLY throughout the provinces of Canada, not even Quebec.

I presume you are NOT so totally misinformed that you that you did not know this or were purposely trying to mislead, like you have virtually every other point I have posted.

The only reason I carried out this (debate, cough, cough sputter, sputter) to this point, was to ensure SOME of the real facts were properly addressed.

What you are doing is trolling and is against the rules in this forum.

[JerrySeinfeld]

What's all this intolerant stuff in Quebec.

I know Quebec society are intolerant of the Anglos but now we learn they are also intolerant of their own chosen immigrants.

What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...b4d&k=76406

And this is news?

[Leafless]

What's all this intolerant stuff in Quebec.

I know Quebec society are intolerant of the Anglos but now we learn they are also intolerant of their own chosen immigrants.

What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...b4d&k=76406

And this is news?

Well, tell me Jerry, I haven't heard much in the way of sabre rattling from English minority groups in the Montreal area.

Have they all thrown in the towel?

I really don't blame them though when they get absolutely NO support from OUR federal government.

If the feds have any integrity they would offer all English minorities who are unable to leave Quebec for financial reasons a job in the federal public service and pay all cost pertaining to setting up in another more civilized English province.

I know in Ottawa many people are going to be in for one hell of a problem a few years down the road.

We have tons of francophone's pouring into Ottawa every morning from Quebec taking all the jobs that 'artificial bilingualism' has created, courtesy of 'a la federal government'.

Ottawa's English kids, many have no jobs or unskilled minimum wage jobs and are living with their parents who provide cheap or no charge room and board.

But what's going to happen Gerry, when their parents pass on and they will be in the average age bracket of 35-50 and totally unemployable.

What kind of unrectifiable social situation will this create?

Who will pay for the high cost of welfare coupled with a possible high suicide rate? Society will say 'what has caused this horrible situation and who is responsible? To late though ...isn't it.

Many Liberal supporters don't think of these things when they go out to vote ....with their wallet in mind.

Well all I have to say is English society better think twice before voting Liberal if they don't want their children dying in the streets of English Canada.

[Leafless]

Jerry, where are you? Have you lost your tongue?

We need people to contribute their experiences concerning what the extreme social Liberal fantasies have done to this country.

The situation the Liberals have created in Ottawa is deplorable. The city is majority English. The population of francophone's in Ottawa is 17.7% unlike other population statistics that is based on demographics and include Gatineau, Quebec.

The Liberals have promoted a minority language (French) by inducing an artificial demand for the French language in Ottawa that has encouraged thousands of Quebec francophone's to cross the bridges into Ottawa every morning to TAKE from the English majority jobs that BELONG to tax paying residents of Ottawa.

The mayor of Ottawa Bob Chiralli (a federal Liberal supporter) has actually promoted official bilingualism, with the city of Ottawa actually implementing a deluxe version of a bilingual policy that has resulted even with Ottawa's major hospitals being staffed by an large unproportionate number of francophone's.

Liberal Premier Dalton prior to being elected had made a promise to francophone's to make Ottawa officially bilingual. Fortunately he has BROKE that promise. I wonder why?

Where are the politicians to support the English tax paying majority who need English jobs in Ottawa.

Where are the politicians who must protect Ottawa residents against the massive influx of francophone's who pour into Ottawa every day who remove massive amounts of dollars from Ottawa's economy only to return to Quebec and spend it there. Who pays for the destruction of Ottawa roads caused by this massive influx everyday?

Ottawa the Capital of Canada does NOT belong to the federal government nor the province of Quebec.

It is a municipality like any other municipality supported by the tax payers of Ottawa.

Somebody must do something.

I would not ever want to ever see the Ottawa and the region region turn into another BELFAST.

People are angry and dumbfounded over the entire situation.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:jf7vmh...t=clnk&cd=2

[Rue]

What's all this intolerant stuff in Quebec.

I know Quebec society are intolerant of the Anglos but now we learn they are also intolerant of their own chosen immigrants.

What gives? Is Quebec riding in the same boat Muslim's and Islam are in and that is is over sensitivities and bigotry and racist notions concerning culture, race and religion?

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...b4d&k=76406

And this is news?

Well, tell me Jerry, I haven't heard much in the way of sabre rattling from English minority groups in the Montreal area.

Have they all thrown in the towel?

I really don't blame them though when they get absolutely NO support from OUR federal government.

If the feds have any integrity they would offer all English minorities who are unable to leave Quebec for financial reasons a job in the federal public service and pay all cost pertaining to setting up in another more civilized English province.

I know in Ottawa many people are going to be in for one hell of a problem a few years down the road.

We have tons of francophone's pouring into Ottawa every morning from Quebec taking all the jobs that 'artificial bilingualism' has created, courtesy of 'a la federal government'.

Ottawa's English kids, many have no jobs or unskilled minimum wage jobs and are living with their parents who provide cheap or no charge room and board.

But what's going to happen Gerry, when their parents pass on and they will be in the average age bracket of 35-50 and totally unemployable.

What kind of unrectifiable social situation will this create?

Who will pay for the high cost of welfare coupled with a possible high suicide rate? Society will say 'what has caused this horrible situation and who is responsible? To late though ...isn't it.

Many Liberal supporters don't think of these things when they go out to vote ....with their wallet in mind.

Well all I have to say is English society better think twice before voting Liberal if they don't want their children dying in the streets of English Canada.

Couple of answers for that. The first is demography. English Montrealers are very old now. Their children left. A lot of them are in their 70's, 80's. They are not as active as they once were. Secondly, if you are an English Montrealer politically your options provincially are hopeless. You have a choice of what? The current Liberal Party in Quebec is actually the reincarnated Union National party merged with the Liberals. It doesn't cater to nor does it worry about its English minority which it takes for granted will vote for it. If you are English provincially you feel like a captive voter so apathy has kicked in plus the age. Thirdly, on the federal level, since Trudea retired, there has been no federal leader that has really understood or tapped into the

fears or hopes of the English minority in Quebec. Certainly nopt Chretiens or Dion and certainly not Martin.

I also thing Ignatieff's academic proposal of defining Quebec as a nation within a nation is the kind of

academic elitist stuff that really makes English voters in the province say, we have a choice of Harper who clearly does not have English Quebec on his agenda or Iggy or heaven forbid Bob Rae. They are just disillusioned at this pt. Also a lot of federal contract money was sent into Quebec helping a good turn around in Montreal's economy so of course economically thinks are better so when the economy is stronger people also tend to be a bit more quiet. Charest may have his problems, but he has done a relatively good job with his province's economy and keeping his crazy unions under control.

[Higgly]

Couple of answers for that. The first is demography. English Montrealers are very old now. Their children left. A lot of them are in their 70's, 80's. They are not as active as they once were.

Source Rue?

[bk59]

Canada does have two official languages English and French BUT they ONLY pertain to federal government entities and are NOT official PROVINCIALLY throughout the provinces of Canada, not even Quebec.

I presume you are NOT so totally misinformed that you that you did not know this or were purposely trying to mislead, like you have virtually every other point I have posted.

The only reason I carried out this (debate, cough, cough sputter, sputter) to this point, was to ensure SOME of the real facts were properly addressed.

What you are doing is trolling and is against the rules in this forum.

I'm curious to find out how I or anyone else has been trying to purposefully mislead anyone. You stated that no province is officially English. I gave you sources that clearly showed multiple provinces as being officially English (Alberta, Ontario). I also gave an example of a bilingual province (Manitoba). I don't recall saying that English and French were somehow official at all levels of government in Canada.

As for addressing facts, I would be happy to look at any materials that you reference. Just don't expect anyone to take your word for a fact that you can't find a source for.