Quebecers intolerant of immigrants

[Leafless]

And how are immigrants "steering" the majority of Canadians away from their culture? I live in a city with a lot of immigrants with many different cultures, but never has anyone forced me away from my own culture.

Yet another bold statement from Leafless without a single argument/example to back it up.

Another tounge lashing reprimand from the peanut gallery! If you can read it reply either to it, don't reply to it, or report it to the moderator.

If immigrants and Quebec are NOT steering Canadians away from THEIR majority culture developed solely by Christian nationalism , maybe you can explain the absence of Canadian nationalism, Canadian patriotism and loyalty to the country of Canada?

Canada's rich cultural and linguistic heritage is already spoken for, by guess who?

[gc1765]

Another tounge lashing reprimand from the peanut gallery! If you can read it reply either to it, don't reply to it, or report it to the moderator.

Huh? I've asked you several times to back up your statements with arguments and examples, yet you keep making these statements with no argument or example. It's pretty hard to have a debate when there is nothing there to debate. The reason I am asking you is because I'd like to have a debate, but like I said you are not providing me with anything to debate. I don't know how else to get my point across, so take this example...if I made a statement such as "Christianity is responsible for the majority of murders in Canada", you would probably want me to back up that statement using reasoned arguments, right? Otherwise it's pretty hard to debate, isn't it? (disclaimer: I am not actually making such a statement, just using it as an example)

If immigrants and Quebec are NOT steering Canadians away from THEIR majority culture developed solely by Christian nationalism , maybe you can explain the absence of Canadian nationalism, Canadian patriotism and loyalty to the country of Canada?

Canada's rich cultural and linguistic heritage is already spoken for, by guess who?

In order to explain any absence of nationalism & patriotism (assuming there is any) I would need to have a comparison to a time when Canadians had more nationalism & patriotism. Since I haven't noticed any decrease in these things in my lifetime, there is no way I could answer that question, sorry. But if you think that immigrants are steering Canadians away from loyalty to our country, please explain how they are doing so, and why it is a bad thing.

[M.Dancer]

In my mind, nationalism and patriotism are not synonymous, opposites even.

Nationalism is akin to bigotry. It requires no more devotion than a sports fanatic has for his team and usually engenders about as much social benefits as going to a football game. To sum total sacrifice demanded by nationalism is the abdication of reason and the adoption of disdain for other nations and cultures.

Patriotism is the love of your country that inspires citizenship and sacrifice. It is what moves men to leave their families and defend their homes. It is what motivates people to higher callings, to participate in the public arena and to challenge the status qua for the betterment of society.

[Leafless]

If I made a statement such as "Christianity is responsible for the majority of murders in Canada", you would probably want me to back up that statement using reasoned arguments, right? Otherwise it's pretty hard to debate, isn't it? (disclaimer: I am not actually making such a statement, just using it as an example)

Any member can reply to that statement anyway he or she chooses.

A smart member would research information to dispute that claim or to counteract that statement if he or she chooses to do so.

This is how a debate is initiated.

This is a forum not parliament.

[Leafless]

In order to explain any absence of nationalism & patriotism (assuming there is any) I would need to have a comparison to a time when Canadians had more nationalism & patriotism. Since I haven't noticed any decrease in these things in my lifetime, there is no way I could answer that question, sorry. But if you think that immigrants are steering Canadians away from loyalty to our country, please explain how they are doing so, and why it is a bad thing.

Prior to 1982 is the answer to the question when Canadian nationalism and patriotism did exist.

Canadian nationalism and patriotism is what forms the backbone of a united country based on Christian nationalism relating to North America.

It's not only immigrants that are contributing to the decay of Canadian nationalism but Quebec is the leader in this area with the twisted emphasis on it's own nationalistic pride devoted to it's own language and culture rather than Canadian nationalism and patriotism derived from Christian nationalism.

[Leafless]

In my mind, nationalism and patriotism are not synonymous, opposites even.

Nationalism is akin to bigotry. It requires no more devotion than a sports fanatic has for his team and usually engenders about as much social benefits as going to a football game. To sum total sacrifice demanded by nationalism is the abdication of reason and the adoption of disdain for other nations and cultures.

Patriotism is the love of your country that inspires citizenship and sacrifice. It is what moves men to leave their families and defend their homes. It is what motivates people to higher callings, to participate in the public arena and to challenge the status qua for the betterment of society.

Your interpretation of Canadian nationalism is different than mine.

Nationalism is simply a more intense feeling of patriotism and they are both created like I mentioned previously from (in this North American country) majority Christian nationalism and democratic federal support.

[M.Dancer]

In my mind, nationalism and patriotism are not synonymous, opposites even.

Nationalism is akin to bigotry. It requires no more devotion than a sports fanatic has for his team and usually engenders about as much social benefits as going to a football game. To sum total sacrifice demanded by nationalism is the abdication of reason and the adoption of disdain for other nations and cultures.

Patriotism is the love of your country that inspires citizenship and sacrifice. It is what moves men to leave their families and defend their homes. It is what motivates people to higher callings, to participate in the public arena and to challenge the status qua for the betterment of society.

Your interpretation of Canadian nationalism is different than mine.

Nationalism is simply a more intense feeling of patriotism and they are both created like I mentioned previously from (in this North American country) majority Christian nationalism and democratic federal support.

You are incorrect, despite what your think.......

Nationalism

na·tion·al·ism Listen: [ nsh-n-lzm, nshn- ]

n.

Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

Patriotism

pa·tri·ot·ism Listen: [ ptr--tzm ]

n.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

Your version of Nationalism is best described here

[gc1765]

Any member can reply to that statement anyway he or she chooses.

A smart member would research information to dispute that claim or to counteract that statement if he or she chooses to do so.

This is how a debate is initiated.

This is a forum not parliament.

The problem is there is no way to debate such a vague statement as "multiculturalism fans the flames of racism & bigotry" without being more specific. How would you respond if I started a thread entitled "Christianity fans the flames of racism & bigotry". How would you even begin to debate that? Sure, you are entitled to express your opinions on this forum, but unless you back up your opinions, don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Just as no one would take me seriously if I posted "Christianity fans the flames of racism & bigotry" with nothing to back that up.

Prior to 1982 is the answer to the question when Canadian nationalism and patriotism did exist.

Canadian nationalism and patriotism is what forms the backbone of a united country based on Christian nationalism relating to North America.

It's not only immigrants that are contributing to the decay of Canadian nationalism but Quebec is the leader in this area with the twisted emphasis on it's own nationalistic pride devoted to it's own language and culture rather than Canadian nationalism and patriotism derived from Christian nationalism.

Quebec nationalism has been around prior to 1982, so how has quebec nationalism taken away from Canadian nationalism since 1982?

Do you want to address my previous question now: I asked "How are immigrants steering Canadians away from loyalty to our country"? and how is that a bad thing? In response to your most recent post, I would ask you How have immigrants contibuted to the decay of Canadian nationalism? If you can't answer those questions, it will be impossible to have a debate.

[Leafless]

"Christianity fans the flames of racism & bigotry". How would you even begin to debate that? Sure, you are entitled to express your opinions on this forum, but unless you back up your opinions, don't expect anyone to take you seriously. Just as no one would take me seriously if I posted "Christianity fans the flames of racism & bigotry" with nothing to back that up.

Those might be your rules but there not mine. I think your simply trying undermine free speech.

You don't need a qualified source for everything that's said. I think you cannot defend Quebec ideologies as an alternative independent of Canadian nationalism and patriotism. This is why IMO was the main reason the Charter was implemented was to force the rest of Canada to succumb to the same nationalistic ideologies Quebec bases it's overly religious sentiments to linguistics and culture rather than Christian nationalism.

Christian nationalism got Quebec nowhere pertaining to political power. The all wise Liberals remedied that, by creating a political power base built on language and culture and resulted in viewing Quebecer's as a minority rather than being part of the whole group being Canadians.

This topic of this thread has been initiated with a media article relating to the subject and continued from there into aspects of multiculturalism related to the subject.

I suggest you go ahead and post your suggested topic "Christianity fans the flames of racism and bigotry" as it sounds interesting and you will create a debate if you can and are able to support your views with reasonable dialogue when confronted by others.

[Argus]

You are simply missing the point. People are not intollerent towards the idea that others can live their own cultures, for the most part, UNTIL those people living their own culture begin to intrude on them living THEIR culture. Most people don't mind hearing an odd language spoken, but when they're constantly surrounded by other people speaking other languages they begin to get resentful. They begin to feel threatened, and to feel as if suddenly THEY are the outsiders in their own land. In many parts of Canada that is becoming the norm.

Aside from language (which I believe that immigrants should learn at least one of our official languages), how are immigrants having their own culture "intruding" on other cultures?

In a thousand little ways, each of which, individually, might seem petty, but taken together grates on peoples minds. In abrogating celebrations of our own culture and in consessions we make so as to not offend. Just the fact that one can be surrounded in ones daily life by foreigners, people who don't act, dress, think, talk, or believe as you do takes away a feeling of belonging in people, a sense of shared background which makes them feel like they're outsiders rather than "home". People instinctively like to feel as though they belong, and that's hard to do when so many around you are nothing whatever like you, and with whom you can often barely communicate on even a functional level.

It's something difficult to describe by way of statistics or charts.

And this is still extremely tolerent. If you poured hundreds of thousands of foreigners into most other nations cities, esp Muslim, Asian, African, wherever in the third world, you'd have blood in the streets, revolution, and daily bombings and killings of the foreigners by local nationalist groups.

That has nothing to do with multiculturalism. Violence is already illegal. Of course immigrants must obey the law of the country they are emigrating to, no one is arguing that they shouldn't.

I'm not speaking about violence from foreigners. I'm saying that in most countries, if you moved this many people in amongst the locals you'd have violent upheaval from the locals.

[gc1765]

I suggest you go ahead and post your suggested topic "Christianity fans the flames of racism and bigotry" as it sounds interesting and you will create a debate if you can and are able to support your views with reasonable dialogue when confronted by others.

Exactly. I see that you understand it's important to support your views. Now, care to support all the statements which you made earlier. If you re-read my posts in this thread, I've already pointed out quite a few. While you're at it, do you want to answer the questions I asked in my previous post (or any post before that if there are unanswered questions)?

[gc1765]

In a thousand little ways, each of which, individually, might seem petty, but taken together grates on peoples minds. In abrogating celebrations of our own culture and in consessions we make so as to not offend.

No one is preventing anyone from celebrating any culture in Canada.

Just the fact that one can be surrounded in ones daily life by foreigners, people who don't act, dress, think, talk, or believe as you do takes away a feeling of belonging in people, a sense of shared background which makes them feel like they're outsiders rather than "home". People instinctively like to feel as though they belong, and that's hard to do when so many around you are nothing whatever like you, and with whom you can often barely communicate on even a functional level.

I don't know, personally I'm friends with quite a few immigrants and as long as they speak english (which all of them do) I have no probelm communicating. Sure, there are differences but I dont' see any problem with that. I can still be friends with someone and feel comfortable around them without sharing the same background. At worst, there are some people (both locals and immigrants) who won't interact socially with those who are different. But there is no reason why a tolerant person can not interact socially with someone who has a different religion, or eats different food etc., so long as they both speak the same language.

I'm not speaking about violence from foreigners. I'm saying that in most countries, if you moved this many people in amongst the locals you'd have violent upheaval from the locals.

Not if the locals are tolerant of the foreigners.

[jbg]

In a thousand little ways, each of which, individually, might seem petty, but taken together grates on peoples minds. In abrogating celebrations of our own culture and in consessions we make so as to not offend.

I am not Christian, but I prefer the open celebration of Christmas as a national holiday to one where the sites, scenes and smells of the season are hidden or muted to avoid offending members of the Islamic cult.

[M.Dancer]

The Anglican church that ran the daycare where my daughter went was ecumenical...in effect the population was about 60% kids of christian origin, 39% jewish and 1% other (about half of the other were muslim).

The director of the daycare is muslim.....

The "holiday" celebrations included a Santa (and a nativity) a menorah and the trappings of El Eid...

No one shied away from fear of offending. The reason is, these holidays are religious, and the respect shown was due and the locale was appropriate (a church). The fear of offence comes in when the State (federal or local) makes it seem that one religion or holiday (say protestant xtianity) is the national holiday or religion. If as an anglican I saw predominance given to the crescent or the menorah at the parliament or city hall, I would be offended and angry.

I think religious holidays should be kept religious, and ceasar should get his just desserts.

And I always accept invitations to sedars and Eid dinners.

[Leafless]

I suggest you go ahead and post your suggested topic "Christianity fans the flames of racism and bigotry" as it sounds interesting and you will create a debate if you can and are able to support your views with reasonable dialogue when confronted by others.

Exactly. I see that you understand it's important to support your views. Now, care to support all the statements which you made earlier. If you re-read my posts in this thread, I've already pointed out quite a few. While you're at it, do you want to answer the questions I asked in my previous post (or any post before that if there are unanswered questions)?

I've always supported my VIEWS, NOT STATEMENTS with INTELLIGENT rhetoric and I don't need you to tell me that.

Instead of asking me to support my allegations or views, how about rebutting them with your own intelligent rhetoric to form a debate.

Only trouble is, you can't.

You OBVIOUSLY know multiculturalism and all aspects concerning it is badly flawed and there is no way you can support Liberal B.S.

I will continue to bash all aspects concerning multiculturalism when the occasion arises or the topic calls or initiates a confrontation concerning any aspect regarding multiculturalism.

[Charles Anthony]

Those might be your rules but there not mine. I think your simply trying undermine free speech.

You don't need a qualified source for everything that's said.

It sounds like you object to a lot of conventional authority.

[Leafless]

Those might be your rules but there not mine. I think your simply trying undermine free speech.

You don't need a qualified source for everything that's said.

It sounds like you object to a lot of conventional authority.

Objecting to conventional authority pertaining to what?

[Charles Anthony]

The forum guidelines which include:

RESEARCH YOUR POST

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (websites, links etc).

[Leafless]

The forum guidelines which include:

RESEARCH YOUR POST

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (websites, links etc).

The original topic originates from a newspaper article.

Are opinions related to the article against forum rules?

If you object to an opinion, counter it or correct it from a qualified source. I have done this many times. If you cannot do this then it is clear you object to ones right concerning free speech.

If you or others feel that I'am not allowed to express opinions that virtually everyone does around here including yourself, without a qualified source to back up your opinion, please feel free to report the issue.

[gc1765]

I've always supported my VIEWS, NOT STATEMENTS with INTELLIGENT rhetoric and I don't need you to tell me that.

Ok, care to show me where you "supported" this view: "multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims." ?

I'm not even looking for a source to back you up, I'm looking for any reason WHY you think multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry, a simple argument to back up that view (or any other views you haven't backed up) will suffice.

[Leafless]

In my mind, nationalism and patriotism are not synonymous, opposites even.

Nationalism is akin to bigotry. It requires no more devotion than a sports fanatic has for his team and usually engenders about as much social benefits as going to a football game. To sum total sacrifice demanded by nationalism is the abdication of reason and the adoption of disdain for other nations and cultures.

Patriotism is the love of your country that inspires citizenship and sacrifice. It is what moves men to leave their families and defend their homes. It is what motivates people to higher callings, to participate in the public arena and to challenge the status qua for the betterment of society.

Your interpretation of Canadian nationalism is different than mine.

Nationalism is simply a more intense feeling of patriotism and they are both created like I mentioned previously from (in this North American country) majority Christian nationalism and democratic federal support.

You are incorrect, despite what your think.......

Nationalism

na·tion·al·ism Listen: [ nsh-n-lzm, nshn- ]

n.

Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

Patriotism

pa·tri·ot·ism Listen: [ ptr--tzm ]

n.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

Your version of Nationalism is best described here

My Concise Oxford dictionary says the definition of nationalism- 1. a patriotic feeling.

And the definition of a patriot- 1. a person who is devoted to and ready to support his or her country.

What you are quoting pertaining to racism is more directed to the antics used in Nazi Germany.

In other words you are also insinuating the U.S. is racist I gather.

Obviously you posses anti-nationalistic trends for whatever reason as Quebec is extremely nationalistic.

[Leafless]

I've always supported my VIEWS, NOT STATEMENTS with INTELLIGENT rhetoric and I don't need you to tell me that.

Ok, care to show me where you "supported" this view: "multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims." ?

I'm not even looking for a source to back you up, I'm looking for any reason WHY you think multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry, a simple argument to back up that view (or any other views you haven't backed up) will suffice.

The original quote of mine was: "This is about how official multiculturalism is fanning the flames of bigotry and racism by allowing so called minorities to advance their cultural and religious claims.

I thought multiculturalism is suppose to be the answer to 'eliminate' bigotry and racism, to even the odds, not advance it."

Firstly 'official multiculturalism' is advanced and protected by Charter Rights.

Gays, ethnic immigrants and Quebecer's are all minorities protected Charter Rights.

Gays have capitalized with federal government INTERVENTION to obtain their so-called rights at the expense of heterosexuals and especially pertaining to traditional Christian beliefs.

Immigrants utilizing their language with no intention of seriously learning the major languages of Canada threaten Canadian nationalism and Christian beliefs including a certain religion that advocates against religious freedom in Canada and even threatens Canadian nationalism with national political instability.

Quebec has capitalized tremendously with the federal government of Canada and the Charter expanding Quebec political ideologies with rights that discriminate against Canadian nationalism and Canadian freedoms. These rights place great importance on Quebec's language and culture and discriminate and promote national political instability rather than protect Canadian nationalism and Canadians as a whole.

Canadian nationalism is a product of Christian nationalism, Christianity and traditional federal government support similar to other democratic countries like the U.S.

Charter Rights protect Freedom of Religion which includes Christianity, Christian nationalism and Christian values that has been abused by the Charter which no longer reflects or defends the religion of the majority, Christianity.

Thus the reason for the 'quote' defended by a flawed, biased, discriminatory and racist promoting, our Canadian 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms".

[gc1765]

I thought multiculturalism is suppose to be the answer to 'eliminate' bigotry and racism, to even the odds, not advance it."

The fact that multiculturalism has not eliminated bigotry and racism is not a good argument. It's like saying that police officers are a bad thing for preventing crime because they have not completely eliminated crime. You haven't yet convinced me that it has somehow advanced bigotry and racism.

Gays have capitalized with federal government INTERVENTION to obtain their so-called rights at the expense of heterosexuals and especially pertaining to traditional Christian beliefs.

If this is in reference to same sex marriage, then I agree with you to a certain extent. Government should recognize unions (or marriage, whatever you want to call it) between, and give equal rights to, both same sex and opposite sex couples. It should then be up to the religious institution to decide who they want to marry or not. I don't see what this has to do with multiculturalism or racism though...

Immigrants utilizing their language with no intention of seriously learning the major languages of Canada threaten Canadian nationalism and Christian beliefs including a certain religion that advocates against religious freedom in Canada and even threatens Canadian nationalism with national political instability.

How are your Christian beliefs (I am assuming you are Christian here given how much you talk about Christianity) threatened by immigrants? Are you losing faith because there are immigrants in this country? Or because they are allowed to retain their culture? If there is a religion in Canada that opposes religious freedom, then I would certainly be opposed to that. Luckily, we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to guarantee us the right to religious freedom.

Quebec has capitalized tremendously with the federal government of Canada and the Charter expanding Quebec political ideologies with rights that discriminate against Canadian nationalism and Canadian freedoms. These rights place great importance on Quebec's language and culture and discriminate and promote national political instability rather than protect Canadian nationalism and Canadians as a whole.

Can you back up your view that Quebec's rights are discriminating against Canadian freedoms?

I'm not sure what you mean by "political instability". The only thing I can think of is Quebec separatism, but that has been around for much longer than the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And this still has nothing to do with your original statment regarding multiculturalism & racism. Or is this in response to another view of yours (if so can you specify which so I know the context of the argument)?

Charter Rights protect Freedom of Religion which includes Christianity, Christian nationalism and Christian values that has been abused by the Charter which no longer reflects or defends the religion of the majority, Christianity.

Can you back up your view that Charter Rights are abusing Christian values (if that's what you are saying)?

[jbg]

The fact that multiculturalism has not eliminated bigotry and racism is not a good argument. It's like saying that police officers are a bad thing for preventing crime because they have not completely eliminated crime. You haven't yet convinced me that it has somehow advanced bigotry and racism.

What has Canada gained from multiculturalism other than to surrender its British heritage and its own unique culture?

[gc1765]

What has Canada gained from multiculturalism other than to surrender its British heritage and its own unique culture?

I don't think Canada has surrendered it's heritage or culture because of multiculturalism. I don't think Canada has lost anything because of multiculturalism. Has it gained anything? I don't know. I think it's important for people to be themselves, I don't care if I personally gain anything because an immigrant is allowed to keep his or her own culture. I suppose some people may have learned about other cultures, had new experiences, tried new things etc. as a result of multiculturalism. There could possibly be some economic benefits as well, through increased trade & investment with other countries.