A thought about Israel.

[M.Dancer]

BTW, in case you haven't noticed (reading difficulty, I wonder?) no one here denies suffering of Jewish people at the time, in many places of the world.

(1) I don't think the evidence available establishes that Arab governments would be actively persecuting Jews.

Dissemble much?

Excuse me. You appear to be imputing that I have denied Jewish people suffered persecution.

That imputation is completely baseless and false.

My comment relates to the prospect of behaviour from Arab governments, not the content of the historical record.

No i didn't "impute" that...I am imputing that you deny the factual account of arab persecution which predates the state of israel....

Your basic stance is...if it wasn't for israel, the arabs wouldn't be hating jews, or trying to kill them...and the fact remain, they killed them before 1948, they killed jews who have never seen israel......

......arafat used to try and claim he didn't hate jews either...just zionists....and the useful idiots believed him...despite the record of the PLO et al killing non israelis where ever and whenever.....

so spare me the Root Cause or leave it end of the driveway with the other manures.

[Rue]

Rue, Rue, Rue. Simply saying that does not make it so. It is a fact, the Palestinian people are under military occupation by Israel an no denial on your part of this plain fact can serve to prove you are anywhere near impartial on this topic.

In fact, it is apparent over many posts that your views on this subject are not merely factually unfounded, and ethically inexplicable, they are also intransigent.

Well that's nice. Now prove one thing I have said is factually wrong. Prove it. I am waiting.

[Figleaf]

Yes, yes. I don't think anti-Jewish rioting in the 1940s demonstates convincingly that Arab governments would be actively persecuting Jews today in the absense of their conflict with Israel.

Why? You thhink without Israel they would have become liberal democracies?

No, I believe acceptance of Jewish people in Arab countries would be on roughly a par with whatever state of human rights prevailed in said state for any of its minorities.

Maybe one should ask the Mufti of Jerusalem, the defacto leader and therefore gov't of the arabs of the area, why he told his followers to kill jews?

Go ahead. Then come back and tell us all what he says. (What sort of overblown rhetoric is that supposed to be anyway?)

BTW...saying that arab riots in egypt didn't have gov't approval is like saying crystal night was a spontaneous event......

I don't believe I have discussed riots in Egypt at all. Are you saying I have? If so, why would you lie like that?

[Figleaf]

Rue, Rue, Rue. Simply saying that does not make it so. It is a fact, the Palestinian people are under military occupation by Israel an no denial on your part of this plain fact can serve to prove you are anywhere near impartial on this topic.

In fact, it is apparent over many posts that your views on this subject are not merely factually unfounded, and ethically inexplicable, they are also intransigent.

Well that's nice. Now prove one thing I have said is factually wrong. Prove it. I am waiting.

I see no reason to review the entirety of this thread for you, nor the several others that provide the 'proof' you demand here.

[Figleaf]

I am imputing that you deny the factual account of arab persecution which predates the state of israel....

I don't know the entiretly of the "factual account" or claims made about it, so I can neither confirm or deny it in specie.

But I certainly don't deny there was some persecution of some Jews in the Arab world predating the creation of the state of Israel.

And I put it to you again, only a mala fide interpretation of my statement would lead you to make such an accusation.

Your basic stance is...if it wasn't for israel, the arabs wouldn't be hating jews, or trying to kill them...

I have stated my basic stance in a form clearer and shorter than that. Your version is less correct. Don't bend my words, please, Mr. Twist.

[M.Dancer]

Yes, yes. I don't think anti-Jewish rioting in the 1940s demonstates convincingly that Arab governments would be actively persecuting Jews today in the absense of their conflict with Israel.

Why? You thhink without Israel they would have become liberal democracies?

No, I believe acceptance of Jewish people in Arab countries would be on roughly a par with whatever state of human rights prevailed in said state for any of its minorities.

Maybe one should ask the Mufti of Jerusalem, the defacto leader and therefore gov't of the arabs of the area, why he told his followers to kill jews?

Go ahead. Then come back and tell us all what he says. (What sort of overblown rhetoric is that supposed to be anyway?)

BTW...saying that arab riots in egypt didn't have gov't approval is like saying crystal night was a spontaneous event......

I don't believe I have discussed riots in Egypt at all. Are you saying I have? If so, why would you lie like that?

I wouldn't want to bruise your feelings, but I wasn't talking to you exclusively.

[Figleaf]

Yes, yes. I don't think anti-Jewish rioting in the 1940s demonstates convincingly that Arab governments would be actively persecuting Jews today in the absense of their conflict with Israel.

Why? You thhink without Israel they would have become liberal democracies?

No, I believe acceptance of Jewish people in Arab countries would be on roughly a par with whatever state of human rights prevailed in said state for any of its minorities.

Maybe one should ask the Mufti of Jerusalem, the defacto leader and therefore gov't of the arabs of the area, why he told his followers to kill jews?

Go ahead. Then come back and tell us all what he says. (What sort of overblown rhetoric is that supposed to be anyway?)

BTW...saying that arab riots in egypt didn't have gov't approval is like saying crystal night was a spontaneous event......

I don't believe I have discussed riots in Egypt at all. Are you saying I have? If so, why would you lie like that?

I wouldn't want to bruise your feelings, but I wasn't talking to you exclusively.

Ah. Since you had exclusivly quoted me throughout the post, and since you gave no indication whatsoever that you were changing your conversational direction, I guess I was mislead. Pardon me for failing to anticipate your poor habits.

[Rue]

I have yet to see one of you posters claiming what I have presented is factually wrong, provide anything other then your subjective opinions to point out with facts and documentation what I have said that is wrong. I guess I can hold my breath. The simple reason for that is that with due respect the majority of you base your opinions on very little historic fact but heavy on revisionist essays you quickly find on the inter-net.

Let us talk actual history to show how full of poo poo some of you are when it comes to your comments on Palestinians being the only victims and refugees.

Let us back up top your use of the word Palestine. How trendy.

There was never a country called Palestine. It is a geographic term the Romans once used. The land referred in the Bible as Judea and Somaria, or the land of Milk and Honey is Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and today's Israel and part of Egypt.

Once and for all, get it through your thick skulls there were no states in the Middle East until Britain and France drew up their colonial maps after World War One.

The geographic area you like to call Palestine was not Palestine but part of a larger area that went from the Byzantine Empre to the Umayyad Empire to the Abbasid Empire to the Tulumid Empire back to the Byzantines then to the Salijuqs, then came the Christian Crusaders, then the Ayyubid Empre, then the Mamluke Empire, and then of course the Ottoman (Turk) Empire. Never was there a country of citizens living there.

The Palestine Mandate was in fact created by the League of Nations at the San Remo Conference with the sole intention of establishing a national homeland for Jews. This mandate was given to Britain with that sole purpose. Britain then decided to turn around and vilate this mandate by taking 4/5ths of the land defined in the mandate and giving it to the Arabs. It did this by seperating the land into Mintaqa or by taking all of Eastern Palestine (West Bank) and what is now Jordan and creating a puppet state it coulod control. This puppet state, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, consists of the majority of the land of Palestine. To this day Jews are not allowed citizenship in this country so when one of you trendy left wing revisionists talks about a democractic secular state for Jews and Muslims please remember that.

Of course you can call me names and claim what I say is untrue but it won't change the above which is historic fact and not my personal opinion.

It is also an historic fact that the 1947 areas allocated by the Partition Plan by the United Nations was seized by Egypt and Jordan although you would love to think only Jews seized Palestinian land.

Now I defy any of you to tell me one thing I said above which is not historically true before you lecture anyone else on the injustice of Palestine and how it is simple bad v.s. good. You know nothing about what you think you are talking about and until you read and figure out where this name Palestine came from of course everything I say to you will seem wrong. It won't fit into your simplistic notion that Palestine is what Israel is today. It won't fit into your simplistic idea that Jordan and Egypt and Syria and Lebanon have nothing to do with Palestine. It won't fit into your simplistic notion that the tiny sliver of land Jews were trying to settle in was less then 1/5th of Palestine and that legally they could have argued for much more but chose not do.

Of course do any of you even have a clue what happened to Jews and their property in the Middle East prior to 1948? I doubt it.

[Rue]

Fior you trendy leftist experts on good and evil and ethics and sinister evil Israel, once again I ask you to read the words of the late Zoher Moessein, head of PLO bureau of military operation:

"There is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians and Lebanese; we are all members of the same nation. Solely for political reasons are we careful to stress our identity as Palestinians. Since a separate State of Palestine would be an extra weapon in Arab hands to fight Zionism with. Yes, we do call for the creation of a Palestinian state for tactical reasons. Such a state would be a new means of continuing the battle against Zionism, and for Arab unity."

You sit in your smug sheltered Western homes free of conflict, and you lecture on Israel as if you understand its origins or what it really means to the Muslim world.

If you were to actually make a point of reading Muslim literature and speeches and position papers, instead of revisionist essays from non Muslims, you might just get some insight.

You might also want to read the information from the arab-sponsored Institute for Palestinian Studies in Beirut that concluded that your revisionist comments that Arabs were forcefully removed from Palestine

is b.s. In fact they estimated there were 400,000 refugees and that 68% were never expelled but chose to leave without ever having any contact with Israeli soldiers.

Oh I know, I make it all up. How about instead of relying on a few revisionist essays on the internet, you Palestine experts go find the book From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters. No she is not pro-Israel. She was on the other hand able to document that the same number of Jewish refugees were expelled from Arab nations during the same period of 194801950 as were Palestinian Muslims/Arabs from Israel. There were 120,000 Jews thrown out of Iraq for starters.

In case any of you revisionists care to read, it is a fact that about one million Jews from the Muslim countries in the Middle East were thrown out, their properties confiscated and had to be integrated into Israel's society from 1948-1950.

Where does that fit in to your Israel bad, Palestine good scenario?

I have yet to hear one of you Palestinian historic geniuses explain to me why it is when Muslims are dispossessed from land that is bad, but when the same thing happened to Jews, you completely ignoire it.

This is again why I will repeat, this is not simply one side being bad and the other good, its about both Jews and Palestinians being dispossessed.

Only in your revisionist world where you make idiotic comments that Palestine should be a secular democractic state, none of you bothers to stop for one second to understand with the exception of Israel there has never been nor will there be a democractic state in the Middle East. It is not in the history or culture of the Muslim world to seperate religion from state and so it will never have a secular state.

As for democracy, oh I love it when you throw out the notion of a democratic state like boom and presto Jews and Arabs will live in a democratically elected state of mutual tolerance.

This is because you ignore reality and the fact that daily on the radio, on t.v., and in its newspapers, cultural, schools and in its museums, Muslims are taught to hate Jews, Christians and anyone else who does not share their views.

This crap about democracy is fine for you to throw about because you haven't a clue what Muslims in the real world in the Middle East truly think about the values you take for granted.

[M.Dancer]

Ah. Since you had exclusivly quoted me throughout the post, and since you gave no indication whatsoever that you were changing your conversational direction, I guess I was mislead. Pardon me for failing to anticipate your poor habits.

If one quote is "exclusively throughout" I will try from now on not to overburden you.......

[M.Dancer]

Maybe one should ask the Mufti of Jerusalem, the defacto leader and therefore gov't of the arabs of the area, why he told his followers to kill jews?

Go ahead. Then come back and tell us all what he says. (What sort of overblown rhetoric is that supposed to be anyway?)

Lets start with a pic (being worth 998 words)

That's the Big muff with Adolp...(who apparently didn't wait until the creation of israel to hate jews.....)

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Haj_Amin_El_Husseini.htm

[Figleaf]

Maybe one should ask the Mufti of Jerusalem, the defacto leader and therefore gov't of the arabs of the area, why he told his followers to kill jews?

Go ahead. Then come back and tell us all what he says. (What sort of overblown rhetoric is that supposed to be anyway?)

Lets start with a pic (being worth 998 words)

That's the Big muff with Adolp...(who apparently didn't wait until the creation of israel to hate jews.....)

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Haj_Amin_El_Husseini.htm

Previewing your posts would help you to make them comprehensible. This material is germane to what point, exactly?

[Rue]

Here is some of the latest vocabulary from News from Palestine which mixes politics and religion. This is the mentality that you tendy leftists think you understand. Good luck embracing it. And by the way when I hear you tell me the solution is a democratic secular state, I ask you one simple thing: uh hello read below. This is not talking about "Israelis" its talking about Christians and Jews. There is no differentiation between Israelis and Jews. Ask yourself why before you lecture me on Israel bad, Palestine good.

Thus, the Hamas was right in refusing to recognise the Jewish state: in no way can this state become a tolerable neighbour, whether ruled by Labour of Peretz or by Kadima of Olmert, or even in extremely unlikely case of being ruled by Mr Avnery. This state has to be dismantled, like the Assassins' extraterritorial State that once controlled the Middle East. The Assassins drew their power from their ability and preparedness to assassinate the prominent leaders of Crusaders and Muslims, while leaving alive only weak rulers who did not dare to touch them. . . . The Jews do the same: sometimes, by sword, sometimes, by their money, sometimes, by their media, but no strong leader has emerged within their sphere of influence. . . . The Palestinians have no chance, unless we free our souls from Jewish control. And here we may turn to the second J-word, more mighty than the first: Jesus. The present subservience of the West began with a minor step. In 1960s, the Western churches removed from their liturgy a prayer "Oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis", "Let us pray for perfidious Jews that our God and Lord will remove the veil from their hearts so that they too may acknowledge the light of thy truth which is our Lord Jesus Christ and be delivered from their darkness." This was considered "antisemitic," though it is a far cry from the Jewish prayer "Shepokh Hamatha," "Lord, vent your fury upon goyim who do not know your name." But the Jews preserved their prayer of vengeance, while misled and subdued Christians dropped their prayer of mercy. Say this prayer today, say it in your church, dismiss a priest who dares it not, and tomorrow you will not writhe in face of Jewish displeasure, and Gaza – and your soul - will be saved. And if your prayer will be answered, the Jews will be saved, too.

[M.Dancer]

It is also an historic fact that the 1947 areas allocated by the Partition Plan by the United Nations was seized by Egypt and Jordan although you would love to think only Jews seized Palestinian land.

It perplexes me why the champions of the Palestinian state never ask why during the 19 years of Arab occupation of the west bank and gaza, whne all the machinery for creating a sovereign palestinain state was there, they never even once tried.

It might be that it' the answer that bother them. They were waiting first for the destruction of the state of israel and the jews.

And to this we are to take seriously the Arabs wanted peace?

[Figleaf]

It is also an historic fact that the 1947 areas allocated by the Partition Plan by the United Nations was seized by Egypt and Jordan although you would love to think only Jews seized Palestinian land.

It perplexes me why the champions of the Palestinian state never ask why during the 19 years of Arab occupation of the west bank and gaza, whne all the machinery for creating a sovereign palestinain state was there, they never even once tried.

It might be that it' the answer that bother them. They were waiting first for the destruction of the state of israel and the jews.

And to this we are to take seriously the Arabs wanted peace?

It's funny, what you guys think is a telling point.

[M.Dancer]

During the earlier part of World War II, Iraq's government was strongly pro-British, however, the Iraqi nationalist, and ardent Anglophobe Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani succeeded Nuri as-Said as Prime Minister. The new Prime Minister sought close ties with Nazi Germany in hope to release Iraq from British domination. Rashid Ali proposed restrictions on British troops movements in Iraq. Abd al Ilah and Nuri as-Said both were proponents of close cooperation with Britain. They opposed Rashid Ali's policies and pressed him to resign. In response, the army surrounded The Royal palace in Baghdad on April 1,1941. The regent and his entourage escaped to Habbaniyah, from there to Basrah and thence to Amman in Transjordan. Rashid Ali and four generals dubbed the "Golden Square", led a military coup, on April 3, 1941, that ousted Nuri as-Said and the regent; and announced that the temporarily absent regent was deposed.

Backed by the German embassy in Baghdad headed by Dr F. Grobba, which generously supplied money, books and films, the sentiments against the Jews were fuelled. There were demonstrations against the British and Jews by hoodlums and students who had taken to the streets.

<snip>

On the same day an evil conspiracy carried out by Yunis Al Sabawi, head of Nazi groups, who declared himself governor of central southern Iraq. He ordered Jews through Hakham Sasson Khedouri, to remain in their homes from Saturday, May 31 until Monday, June 2 (Shabu'oth)with the intention of slaughtering the Jews that weekend using the Nazi youth organizations he was heading. However, miraculously, Sabawi was deported to the Iranian border that same day. On May 31,1941 it was announced that the Regent with his entourage would be returning to Baghdad next day. The Farhud took place Sunday and Monday, June 1st and 2nd 1941, the two days of Shabu'oth. The word Farhud denotes the breakdown of law and order, where life and property are in peril.

Iraqi state fueling anti jewish riots pre Israel

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/ja..._index.php?l=14

[M.Dancer]

It is also an historic fact that the 1947 areas allocated by the Partition Plan by the United Nations was seized by Egypt and Jordan although you would love to think only Jews seized Palestinian land.

It perplexes me why the champions of the Palestinian state never ask why during the 19 years of Arab occupation of the west bank and gaza, whne all the machinery for creating a sovereign palestinain state was there, they never even once tried.

It might be that it' the answer that bother them. They were waiting first for the destruction of the state of israel and the jews.

And to this we are to take seriously the Arabs wanted peace?

It's funny, what you guys think is a telling point.

It's telling what you think is funny

[myata]

During the earlier part of World War II, Iraq's government was strongly pro-British, however, the Iraqi nationalist, and ardent Anglophobe Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani succeeded Nuri as-Said as Prime Minister. The new Prime Minister sought close ties with Nazi Germany in hope to release Iraq from British domination. Rashid Ali proposed restrictions on British troops movements in Iraq. Abd al Ilah and Nuri as-Said both were proponents of close cooperation with Britain. They opposed Rashid Ali's policies and pressed him to resign. In response, the army surrounded The Royal palace in Baghdad on April 1,1941. The regent and his entourage escaped to Habbaniyah, from there to Basrah and thence to Amman in Transjordan. Rashid Ali and four generals dubbed the "Golden Square", led a military coup, on April 3, 1941, that ousted Nuri as-Said and the regent; and announced that the temporarily absent regent was deposed.

and so on... Again, you're referencing some specific and isolated incidents (military coup) in the turbulent time of WWII, far from wide spread and persistent policy against Jews in the entire arab world.

Iraqi state fueling anti jewish riots pre Israel

I tried to follow this link, it took me to a page with general info about Iraq. There's no information about who's the author of the site. Looks like a rush job. Try better.

[M.Dancer]

and so on... Again, you're referencing some specific and isolated incidents (military coup) in the turbulent time of WWII, far from wide spread and persistent policy against Jews in the entire arab world.

Iraqi state fueling anti jewish riots pre Israel

I tried to follow this link, it took me to a page with general info about Iraq. There's no information about who's the author of the site. Looks like a rush job. Try better.

All events in the universe are isolated unless viewed as a whole....The pogroms of czarist russia were isloate too by your standards.....I have already pointed out how Jews were segregated, isolated.....and that violence against them was common.

Sorry if facts are inconvient....

[M.Dancer]

More specific and isolated incidents ........

One of the el-Husseinis, Haj Amin, who emerged as the leading figure in Palestinian politics during the mandate period, first began to organize small groups of suicide groups, fedayeen ("one who sacrifices himself"), to terrorize Jews in 1919 in the hope of duplicating the success of Kemal in Turkey and drive the Jews out of Palestine, just as the Turkish nationalists were driving the Greeks from Turkey.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...ry/riots29.html

[myata]

No you listed one quote related to a specific event that occured after a military coup during the WWII when countries were invaded and governments changed on the fly. By any standard it does not prove a pattern, even less so a widespread practice. Stay firmly entrenched in your view that violence justifies further violence. I've nothing to add to what I already said.

[GostHacked]

Rue

You sit in your smug sheltered Western homes free of conflict, and you lecture on Israel as if you understand its origins or what it really means to the Muslim world.

Well you cam blame two sets of people.

1. those who watch MSM

2. those lazy enought to accept the MSM answer.

And by your words. Isreal never existed as a state(country) but did exsist as an empire. So war does not determine who is right, just who is left. This I have always believed.

So when France and Britian divided up the place, actually what gave them the right to actually do that in the first place? What gave then the right to say who has what land? The blame game can be thrown around and around.

I am not a history buff and have learned a few things with your posts Rue.

[M.Dancer]

More specific and isolated incidents.......]

A savage pogrom occurred in Tripoli on November 5, 1945, where more than 140 Jews were massacred and almost every synagogue in the city was looted. In June 1948, rioters murdered another 12 Jews and destroyed 280 Jewish homes. When the British legalized emigration in 1949, more than 30,000 Jews fled Libya.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...ory/jewref.html

No no....no pattern emerging....none at all

totally unrelated......

Following Syrian independence from France in 1946, however, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, approximatly 10,000 to the United States, and another 5,000 to Israel, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law that decreed that Jewish orphans under age 12 were to be converted to Islam.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

A significant amout of the current international problems we face are due to the Yalta Conferance, where the world was for all intents and purposes cut up under spheres of influence by F.D.R., Churchill and Stalin.

[Remiel]

A couple of things...

First, there is actually a website www.dhimmitude.org , though I cannot vouch for whether it is completely unbiased, it does seem to present the information truthfully. Linked from that website, I found what seems to be a quote, " the acceptance of the Jizya establishes the sanctity of their lives and property, and thereafter neither the Islamic state, nor the Muslim public have any right to violate their property, honor or liberty " which seems to indicate property rights, but it doesn't specifically mention land... Of course, the law in theory and the law in practice seem to be quite different animals of late anyway.

Second, what are the laws in Israel pertaining to the military and non-Jewish citizens? Someone mentioned that Arabs cannot be part of the military, so I was wondering about the legal justifications for that. While it may seem impractical, I have wondered a few times of late whether the IDF and Mossad could use Muslim soldiers and agents, if they could be satisfied by their loyalty to the country. There is no reason the carrot approach can't be tried on individuals...