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I had a thought that maybe the creation of Israel was bad. Perhaps it lead to even more discrimination and anti-Semintism in the world, and especially in the Middle East.

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I had a thought that maybe the creation of Israel was bad. Perhaps it lead to even more discrimination and anti-Semintism in the world, and especially in the Middle East.

The state of Israel is a fact, and Jews the world over are better off for it.

It is time to address the humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from its creation and think about compensating those who have suffered from it...

The Palestinian Arabs (both Moslem and Christian) through the creation of a viable Palestinian state and the surrender of all illegal settlements. The 'right of return' issue needs to be negotiated seriously. Many Palestinians have legal deeds (from the Ottomans, the Brits, and often from the Zionists) to the land they were forced to give up. It is time to recognize those deeds and deal with them.

Compensation to the neighbouring states who have suffered tremendous losses by their accommodation of Palestinian refugees: Jordan and Lebanon for a start. There was a time when I would have mentioned Kuwait, but they have taken their pound of flesh and their copy book is blotted for what they have done.

The payment of war reparations to Lebanon for the damage that Israel caused in the 1982 bombardment. It is hard to forget a description of a visit paid by the journalist Robert Fisk to the home of an Israeli Air Force pilot who participated in the 1982 bombing of Lebanon. While Bach played in the background, this guy described how Lebanese targets were bombed. The pilots were given pictures of the buildings they were to bomb. The buildings had been identified by 'informers' on the ground inside Lebanon. The Israeli pilots then flew over Beirut and located the buildings by sight. On a second run, they went in and bombed the buildings. This was a country in the middle of a civil war. Who's to say who the hell those spotters were and why they were identifying any particular building? Altogether, 15,000 Lebanese civilians were massacred. Israel needs to compensate Lebanon for what it did during that war. Big time.

Israel, and its sponsor the US, owe a tremendous debt to Middle Eastern society. It is time to pay the piper.\

Finally there is Jerusalem. I was born a Christian. I understand how there can be so many claims on this holy land. It should be declared an international city. I have no solutions about how it should be administered, but as far as I am concerned, nobody can own Jerusalem.

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It is time to address the humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from its creation and think about compensating those who have suffered from it...

Iran is addressing it.

Hezbollah addressed it.

Hamas addressed it.

They all come to the same conclusion. The humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from the creation of it can only lead to one solution. The dismanteling of Israel for the common good of the Middle East. Compensation is something the Arab world may have considered about 40 years ago. But with Israel favoured by most of Europe and the West, compensation is not enough anymore. What is 60 years of compensation worth anyways?

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The humanitarian catastrophe that resulted from the creation of it can only lead to one solution. The dismanteling of Israel for the common good of the Middle East.

Why don't we try to work with what is on the table instead of the feast we've read about in fairy tales? What possible reason could you have to assign to the Jews the same fate that is now suffered by the Palestinians? Don't take this question lightly.

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I find I am in substantial (though likely not total) agreement with Higgly.

I would add:

-International law as it stands today means that any attempt to 'remove' Israel would amount to crimes against humanity (e.g. violation of the Israeli's right to self-determination and presumably some sort of 'ethnic cleansing'). Accordingly, the idea of eradicating Israel espoused by extremists is completely not on.

-The reparations payments can be divided into different categories as follows...

--damages for the flawed installation of Israel and the failure to create the promised Palestinian state should be payable to the Palestinian people by the leading world states of 1948;

--damages for harms inflicted on the Palestinian people (e.g. expulsion, occupation, etc.) after the state of Israel was founded should be paid by Israel;

--SOME damages from military aggression against SOME of its neighbors payable by Israel and any culpable allies to the said neighbor states.

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I find I am in substantial (though likely not total) agreement with Higgly.

I would add:

-International law as it stands today means that any attempt to 'remove' Israel would amount to crimes against humanity (e.g. violation of the Israeli's right to self-determination and presumably some sort of 'ethnic cleansing'). Accordingly, the idea of eradicating Israel espoused by extremists is completely not on.

-The reparations payments can be divided into different categories as follows...

--damages for the flawed installation of Israel and the failure to create the promised Palestinian state should be payable to the Palestinian people by the leading world states of 1948;

--damages for harms inflicted on the Palestinian people (e.g. expulsion, occupation, etc.) after the state of Israel was founded should be paid by Israel;

--SOME damages from military aggression against SOME of its neighbors payable by Israel and any culpable allies to the said neighbor states.

"International law as it stands today means that any attempt to 'remove' Israel would amount to crimes against humanity (e.g. violation of the Israeli's right to self-determination and presumably some sort of 'ethnic cleansing'). Accordingly, the idea of eradicating Israel espoused by extremists is completely not on."

-would be a violation of 2(4) of the UN charter.......in fact technically any threat against the territorial integrity of any state is a violation of international law (hmmm yet nobody seems to do anything when a certain crazy Iranian stands up and starts talking about wiping countries of the map, or when countless other leaders threaten invasion). It is time states start enforcing the rules as they are written and intended to be used for.

-presumably any invasion of Isreal would likely end up violating the Geneva Convention as well

I am in agreement with Higgly and Figleaf on this one. Western nations really blew it with the creation of Israel and not of a separte Palestinian state as promised. The west must take some of the blame for the situation and so should Israel. That being said it is important to remember that there are other guilty parties in the region that should be sharing the costs for the damage they have caused...

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I am constantly amazed by the absolute lack of knowledge some of you have as to international law, the concept of just compensation, and the historical origins of the current State of Israel and current state of Palestinians.

To start with will some of you please take a history book and read before you suggest countries owe compensation payments so that you can at least see why such a suggestion makes no legal or historic sense.

Lets be clear on something. You can revise history all you want, but the fact is any way you slice it, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have competing and equally as valid legal rights in the Middle East.

Any way you argue it you will not get around the fact that legally there is no good or bad guy.

Get it through your thick skulls that when equally as valid legal rights conflict and compete, the legal solution is to seek reciprocal agreements not one way agreements.

That said, and once and for all, the decision to reject the Belfour declaration or the right of Jews to a sovereign state in the Middle East rests with the Arab League of Nations.

It was the Arab League of Nations which chose to ignore the United Nations, and declare a war with the clear and unequivocal intent to defeat the UN Resolution to allow a State for Jews. In so doing, the Arab League

in 1948 chose deliberately, to go all or nothing. It could have had a two state solution in 1948 and chose not to and to basically say-no we want it all.

The 1949 border of Israel was created de facto as a result of war, not by law. De facto borders, if not

disturbed or challenged over an uninterupted period of time, say at least 50 years, can then become recognized in international law as legal borders.

The technical reality is that Israel was forced by a war against it, to fight for the borders it came up with in 1949. They were not defined by the UN but defined as the de facto result of war.

To this date, the majority of Arab League of Nations member states do not recognize Israel or the 1949 borders.

The Arab League of Nations by law, is directly legally responsible for the decision to go to war and to this date has refused to accept legal responsibility for the displaced Palestinians.

You can try pretend the Arab League is not legally responsible and did not start the war and Israel just popped up from nowhere but that is pure b.s.

The Arab League of Nations instructed Palestinians to abandon their property and flee what is now Israel. That is fact corroborated and proven and not in dispute by anyone who has bothered to read history or takes the time to read neutral sources.

The Arab League told Palestinians the war would be over in a few weeks and they would be able to come back. When the Arab League of Nations lost to the Jews of Palestine who then declared an Israeli nation, the Arab League ignored and abandoned the Palestinians.

It had the legal and moral obligation to resettle any who wanted to move to Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq,

Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc., but deliberately refused to do so.

The Arab League of Nations made a deliberate choice to isolate and leave Palestinians in camps to serve as a political tool to pressure the UN into dismantling Israel.

Any talk of the Arab League recognizing Israel's 1949 borders or its right to exist are a joke. With the exceotion of Egypt no Arab League nation recognizes Israel's right to exist so the fact is we have a league of nations that lost a war, uses Palestinians as political pawns and to this day, ignores its moral obligations to Palestinians.

In a cruel twist of irony the Palestinians have become the Jews of the Arab world. They are despised in Arab countries and not trusted and are not welcomed. Yes it is easier to blame and scapegoat Israel then for the Arab League of Nations to examine its internal human rights record and treatment not just of Palestinians but fellow Muslims of different sects.

Hezbollah and Hamas have no legal status to represent Palestinians as much as you would like to pretend they are democractically elected political interest groups. As long as they choose to engage in attacking and killing civilians and engaging in terrorism they do not have any legal rights because they are in fact engaging in crime, pure and simple.

No sovereign nation which Israel is, can negotiate with criminals. It can on the other hand negotiate with non criminals.

The UN has failed in its mandate to de-arm militias and contro terrorism so that peaceful Palestinians can sit and negotiate. The UN has allowed itself to become an arena where the Arab League has been able to

use the UN to revise history and escape any moral responsibility for looking after Palestinians.

Once and for all if there is to be compensation to the Palestinians, it must be by the Arab League of Nations which advised them to flee, and has to this day, left them abandoned when it could have resettled millions of them and/or funded repatriation schemes with the Israeli government it refuses to recognize.

Now after 60 years of being morally cowardly and iresponsible to suggest Palestinians will simply march back to Israel proper and take back land, is idiotic. Its too late.

What has to happen now is the Arab League needs to help build a country in the Gaza and West Bank.

It has had the opportunity to do so and continues to refuse.

Instead we have Iran and Saudi Arabia funding terrorist groups. We have Syria funding and sheltering terrorist groups. We have Muslim clerics and politicians of every stripe in the Middle East engaging in open promulgation and hatred of not just Israel but all Jews world-wide, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, Buddists, Hindus, etc.

Israel has a moral responsibility to feed and look after its own citizens. It is in fact bankrupt and can barely stay afloat and would not exist without US economic aid. It has struggled since 1949 because every ounce of its economy has been forced to be poured into the military to constantly defend it.

As for the Palestinian world, to say the West should compensate it is ludicrous. Since 1949 the West has financially funded Palestinians not the Arab League and what and where has it gotten the West. The PLO plundered the aid funds and hid it inn Swiss bank accounts where fat corupt PLO officials have lived off the money while their fellow citizens starve. Terrorist groups such as Hamas set up schools, hospitals, and community services, but because they believe the only solution is to wipe Israel off the face of the map, have refused to allow Palestinians to work and live side by side Israelis. Hamas has destroyed any economic projects Israel tried to set up with Palestinians including expensive green-houses that would have made Palestinians self-sufficient in food production but Hamas preferred to destroy.

The fact is as long as Palestine is gripped with groups who would prefer to engage in war and terror and refuse any other options, this conflict will continue.It is time the Arab League grow up, look at its moral failure, denounce violence, stop funding terrorists, and tell the Palestinian people its time to stop fighting Israel and time to start building a country.

Israel is going nowhere. Neither are the Palestinians.

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I am constantly amazed by the absolute lack of knowledge some of you have as to international law, the concept of just compensation, and the historical origins of the current State of Israel and current state of Palestinians.

To start with will some of you please take a history book and read before you suggest countries owe compensation payments so that you can at least see why such a suggestion makes no legal or historic sense.

Lets be clear on something. You can revise history all you want, but the fact is any way you slice it, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have competing and equally as valid legal rights in the Middle East.

Any way you argue it you will not get around the fact that legally there is no good or bad guy.

Get it through your thick skulls that when equally as valid legal rights conflict and compete, the legal solution is to seek reciprocal agreements not one way agreements.

That said, and once and for all, the decision to reject the Belfour declaration or the right of Jews to a sovereign state in the Middle East rests with the Arab League of Nations.

It was the Arab League of Nations which chose to ignore the United Nations, and declare a war with the clear and unequivocal intent to defeat the UN Resolution to allow a State for Jews. In so doing, the Arab League

in 1948 chose deliberately, to go all or nothing. It could have had a two state solution in 1948 and chose not to and to basically say-no we want it all.

The 1949 border of Israel was created de facto as a result of war, not by law. De facto borders, if not

disturbed or challenged over an uninterupted period of time, say at least 50 years, can then become recognized in international law as legal borders.

The technical reality is that Israel was forced by a war against it, to fight for the borders it came up with in 1949. They were not defined by the UN but defined as the de facto result of war.

To this date, the majority of Arab League of Nations member states do not recognize Israel or the 1949 borders.

The Arab League of Nations by law, is directly legally responsible for the decision to go to war and to this date has refused to accept legal responsibility for the displaced Palestinians.

You can try pretend the Arab League is not legally responsible and did not start the war and Israel just popped up from nowhere but that is pure b.s.

The Arab League of Nations instructed Palestinians to abandon their property and flee what is now Israel. That is fact corroborated and proven and not in dispute by anyone who has bothered to read history or takes the time to read neutral sources.

The Arab League told Palestinians the war would be over in a few weeks and they would be able to come back. When the Arab League of Nations lost to the Jews of Palestine who then declared an Israeli nation, the Arab League ignored and abandoned the Palestinians.

It had the legal and moral obligation to resettle any who wanted to move to Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq,

Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc., but deliberately refused to do so.

The Arab League of Nations made a deliberate choice to isolate and leave Palestinians in camps to serve as a political tool to pressure the UN into dismantling Israel.

Any talk of the Arab League recognizing Israel's 1949 borders or its right to exist are a joke. With the exceotion of Egypt no Arab League nation recognizes Israel's right to exist so the fact is we have a league of nations that lost a war, uses Palestinians as political pawns and to this day, ignores its moral obligations to Palestinians.

In a cruel twist of irony the Palestinians have become the Jews of the Arab world. They are despised in Arab countries and not trusted and are not welcomed. Yes it is easier to blame and scapegoat Israel then for the Arab League of Nations to examine its internal human rights record and treatment not just of Palestinians but fellow Muslims of different sects.

Hezbollah and Hamas have no legal status to represent Palestinians as much as you would like to pretend they are democractically elected political interest groups. As long as they choose to engage in attacking and killing civilians and engaging in terrorism they do not have any legal rights because they are in fact engaging in crime, pure and simple.

No sovereign nation which Israel is, can negotiate with criminals. It can on the other hand negotiate with non criminals.

The UN has failed in its mandate to de-arm militias and contro terrorism so that peaceful Palestinians can sit and negotiate. The UN has allowed itself to become an arena where the Arab League has been able to

use the UN to revise history and escape any moral responsibility for looking after Palestinians.

Once and for all if there is to be compensation to the Palestinians, it must be by the Arab League of Nations which advised them to flee, and has to this day, left them abandoned when it could have resettled millions of them and/or funded repatriation schemes with the Israeli government it refuses to recognize.

Now after 60 years of being morally cowardly and iresponsible to suggest Palestinians will simply march back to Israel proper and take back land, is idiotic. Its too late.

What has to happen now is the Arab League needs to help build a country in the Gaza and West Bank.

It has had the opportunity to do so and continues to refuse.

Instead we have Iran and Saudi Arabia funding terrorist groups. We have Syria funding and sheltering terrorist groups. We have Muslim clerics and politicians of every stripe in the Middle East engaging in open promulgation and hatred of not just Israel but all Jews world-wide, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, Buddists, Hindus, etc.

Israel has a moral responsibility to feed and look after its own citizens. It is in fact bankrupt and can barely stay afloat and would not exist without US economic aid. It has struggled since 1949 because every ounce of its economy has been forced to be poured into the military to constantly defend it.

As for the Palestinian world, to say the West should compensate it is ludicrous. Since 1949 the West has financially funded Palestinians not the Arab League and what and where has it gotten the West. The PLO plundered the aid funds and hid it inn Swiss bank accounts where fat corupt PLO officials have lived off the money while their fellow citizens starve. Terrorist groups such as Hamas set up schools, hospitals, and community services, but because they believe the only solution is to wipe Israel off the face of the map, have refused to allow Palestinians to work and live side by side Israelis. Hamas has destroyed any economic projects Israel tried to set up with Palestinians including expensive green-houses that would have made Palestinians self-sufficient in food production but Hamas preferred to destroy.

The fact is as long as Palestine is gripped with groups who would prefer to engage in war and terror and refuse any other options, this conflict will continue.It is time the Arab League grow up, look at its moral failure, denounce violence, stop funding terrorists, and tell the Palestinian people its time to stop fighting Israel and time to start building a country.

Israel is going nowhere. Neither are the Palestinians.

"The 1949 border of Israel was created de facto as a result of war, not by law. De facto borders, if not

disturbed or challenged over an uninterupted period of time, say at least 50 years, can then become recognized in international law as legal borders."

-The problem with that assessment is that the 1949 borders would have to have been unchalleneged since then. I believe there a few groups/states that challenge the placement of the borders. That would be like telling India/Pakistan that the legal border for Kashmir is whereever it was from the end of the last war.

The refusal of the Arab nations to accept the resolution that proposed a partioned state wasnt surprising. Having an European imposed settlement creating a state of people with European ancestory would be a complete return to colonialism. It was of course going to be unacceptable to the Arab nations. So yes they do desrve some of the blame for the state of the region today......but not all of it.

Balfour Declaration: at the time only 10% of the area was in fact Jewish with 90% being indigenous palestinian. Why would they accept an agreement being put forth by an occupying power to take away land when they were the absolute majority? When the League of Nations gave the UK power to put forth the Balfour Declaration in 1922 the Palestinians, or any other Arab State, werent given any position to negoiate the settlement. With a history of having solutions imposed by occupying powers it isnt overly surprising they werent jumping at the UN's proposed partioning after ww2. To them this was just another time where the west was imposing its will over the region.

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I am constantly amazed ...

That anyone disagrees with you. :D

It was the Arab League of Nations which chose to ignore the United Nations, and declare a war with the clear and unequivocal intent to defeat the UN Resolution to allow a State for Jews. In so doing, the Arab League in 1948 chose deliberately, to go all or nothing. It could have had a two state solution in 1948 and chose not to and to basically say-no we want it all.

True. They saw no basis for creating implanting a Western-sponsored 'jewish state' in their midst, especially since the territory was already in use by someone else.

The 1949 border of Israel was created de facto as a result of war, not by law. De facto borders, if not disturbed or challenged over an uninterupted period of time, say at least 50 years, can then become recognized in international law as legal borders.

De facto borders are also called occupations, depending on what side of it you look at. In any event, the UN had proposed borders for the state of Israel in 1948. If Israel wishes to have cover of the UN in its establishment, then those are the borders that are relevant. (Of course, Israel declared itself a state in 1947, just a short while before the UN got around to it.) In any event, these 'de facto' boarders of Israel have been challenged continuously since its foundation.

The Arab League of Nations by law, is directly legally responsible for the decision to go to war and to this date has refused to accept legal responsibility for the displaced Palestinians.

This passage clearly indicates you have no proper understanding of what you are talking about. The 'Arab League of Nations' has no sovereign status under international law and thus cannot go to war against anyone. If you mean to refer to member states of the Arab League, you should say that, for precision.

The Arab League of Nations instructed Palestinians to abandon their property and flee what is now Israel.

Whatever advice or warnings the Arab League may have given Palestinians is irrelevant to the issue. What is relevant is that Israelis did conduct expulsion operations.

[The Arab League] had the legal and moral obligation to resettle any who wanted to move to Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc., but deliberately refused to do so.

Crap. It had no legal obligation, and any supposed moral obligations are not the issue.

In a cruel twist of irony the Palestinians have become the Jews of the Arab world.

Why is that ironic, exactly? <_<

Hezbollah and Hamas have no legal status to represent Palestinians as much as you would like to pretend they are democractically elected political interest groups.

Hezbollah has no legal status to represent Palestinians. It is a political party in Lebanon. Hamas is a political party in Palestine and has won the majority of seats in the Palestinian legislative assembly in an election generally recognized as fair.

As long as they choose to engage in attacking and killing civilians and engaging in terrorism they do not have any legal rights because they are in fact engaging in crime, pure and simple.

They have whatever legal rights are accorded to them in the sovereign territories in which they are at any given time.

The UN has failed in its mandate ... The UN has allowed itself ...

It's important to remember that the UN is just a club composed of member countries. It has little ambit for action or blame apart from whatever its members make of it.

Once and for all if there is to be compensation to the Palestinians, it must be by the Arab League of Nations which advised them to flee, and has to this day, left them abandoned when it could have resettled millions of them and/or funded repatriation schemes with the Israeli government it refuses to recognize.

That is utterly silly. The Arab league didn't establish an unwelcome state on their land. It didn't fail to complete its two state promise. It didn't force them off their lands and deny them the right to return to them. It didn't militarily occupy them and settle it's people on their lands.

You make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

We have Muslim clerics and politicians of every stripe in the Middle East engaging in open promulgation and hatred of not just Israel but all Jews world-wide, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, Buddists, Hindus, etc.

Yes, it's quite a legacy, isn't it. :(

Israel has a moral responsibility to feed and look after its own citizens. It is in fact bankrupt and can barely stay afloat and would not exist without US economic aid. It has struggled since 1949 because every ounce of its economy has been forced to be poured into the military to constantly defend it.

Maybe it should make a just peace, then.

The fact is as long as Palestine is gripped with groups who would prefer to engage in war and terror and refuse any other options, this conflict will continue.

What other options?

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The Palestinian Arabs (both Moslem and Christian) through the creation of a viable Palestinian state and the surrender of all illegal settlements.

Buy yourself a dictionary. Look up the term "viable".

The territory left to the Palestinians today (after what has been taken by Jordan and Egypt) will not be a viable state. It will be a state which makes Yemen seem wealthy by comparison. It hasn't got the space, the resources, the water, etc.

The 'right of return' issue needs to be negotiated seriously. Many Palestinians have legal deeds (from the Ottomans, the Brits, and often from the Zionists) to the land they were forced to give up. It is time to recognize those deeds and deal with them.

There will be no return. The idea is preposterous, to begin with. It's like asking Quebec to acccept eight million unilingual Anglos - times ten. As to compensation, perhaps those filthy rich Arab states could compensate them given they caused the problem in the first place by attacking Israel.

Compensation to the neighbouring states who have suffered tremendous losses by their accommodation of Palestinian refugees: Jordan and Lebanon for a start.

The plight of the Palestinians is a tragedy, but it can largely be blamed ON Arab states. They urged them to flee, they urged them not to go back, they refused to sign a peace with Israel, and they refused to allow the refugees to become citizens. Generations have been born in Lebanon or Syria or Egypt, and those states don't recognize that they have any rights as citizens. Why? Because Arab states have worked to perpetuate the Palestinian crisis as a matter of foreign policy for decades. The hundreds of thousands of Jews forced out of Arab states (without compensation) were all taken in by Israel and made citizens. The hundreds of thousands of Arabs who left Israel were all jammed into refugee camps and given no rights by Arab state, nor the children born there, nor the children of those childrens.

Cruel Arab governments have kept them in perpetual limbo to be used as pawns against Israel, and a distraction to their own citizenry for their own inaction on rights and poverty.

The payment of war reparations to Lebanon for the damage that Israel caused in the 1982 bombardment.

Such reparations should be paid by the Arab states which funded and supported the PLO and thus made Lebanon into a war zone. Mind you, Lebanon's own screwed up people aided enormously in that.

The Israelis were simply defending themselves.

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FYI (Rue in particular): BBC had a site with detailed information on the history of Middle East conflict. Google search must find it in a flash. Please consult it (BBC being a respectable source of information) for the factual background on the recent history of the region. BTW it does mention that prior to British occupation of the area in the early 1900 and massive Jewish immigration that followed, Jewish people were an insignificant minority in the area (around 10% if I recall it correctly).

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FYI (Rue in particular): BBC had a site with detailed information on the history of Middle East conflict. Google search must find it in a flash. Please consult it (BBC being a respectable source of information) for the factual background on the recent history of the region.

I don't regard the BBC as being a respectable source of information on the Arab-Israeli dispute. I regard the BBC as foresquare and unapologetically on the side of the Palestinians and with no moral or ethical problems with slanting stories so as to make Israel look bad and the Arabs look good - or at least, better.

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OK, is there another, more reliable source of information that can prove otherwise (i.e. that people in question were a significant minority or maybe even a majority) before British occupation?

"In fact, the Allied support for national liberation within the enemy camp was no less fraudulent than Germany's hypocritical pose as the champion of the Muslims and other subject nationalities under the rule of Britain, France and Russia. The British government's promise of support for the independance of Turkey's Arab provinces was flatly contradicted by agreements made in the course of the war, which provided for the partition of the non-Turkish portion of the Ottoman Empire among England, France, Italy and Russia. To complicate further the post-war situation in the Ottoman domains, an official declaration by Britain's foregin secretary, Arthur Balfour, in November 1917 endorsed the proposal advanced by the European proponents of Zionism for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine- a Turkish-controlled territory on the eastern Meditteranean, which at the time contained roughly 60,000 Jewish inhabitants out of a total population of 750,000 who were mainly Arab"

from: The Twentieth-Century World: An International History (Cdn edition), William Keylor and Jerry Bannister, Oxford University Press, 2005. (page 49)

I dont know is Oxford University Press considered reliable? <_<

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I had a thought that maybe the creation of Israel was bad. Perhaps it lead to even more discrimination and anti-Semintism in the world, and especially in the Middle East.

I suppose the world was free of antisemitism during:

  1. The Spanish Inquisition;
  2. Repeated expulsions from and summonsing back to England;
  3. Numerous Russian, Polish and Ukrainian riots culminating in the Kisinev Pogram of 1892, where the police helped the rioters;
  4. L'Affaire Dreyfusse
  5. The Nazi Holocaust;
  6. PM King's turning away of the St. Louis; FDR's turning away of the St. Louis; and
  7. Explusion from Arab countries.

Feel the love.

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"In fact, the Allied support for national liberation within the enemy camp was no less fraudulent than Germany's hypocritical pose as the champion of the Muslims and other subject nationalities under the rule of Britain, France and Russia. The British government's promise of support for the independance of Turkey's Arab provinces was flatly contradicted by agreements made in the course of the war, which provided for the partition of the non-Turkish portion of the Ottoman Empire among England, France, Italy and Russia. To complicate further the post-war situation in the Ottoman domains, an official declaration by Britain's foregin secretary, Arthur Balfour, in November 1917 endorsed the proposal advanced by the European proponents of Zionism for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine- a Turkish-controlled territory on the eastern Meditteranean, which at the time contained roughly 60,000 Jewish inhabitants out of a total population of 750,000 who were mainly Arab"

from: The Twentieth-Century World: An International History (Cdn edition), William Keylor and Jerry Bannister, Oxford University Press, 2005. (page 49)

I dont know is Oxford University Press considered reliable? <_<

Perhaps, though I don't see it as especially relevent.

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Argus, you're right. It is not relevant. The world, ethnically and religiously, can be, over history, analogized to a jigsaw puzzle with the size and shape of the pieces constantly changing. The Jewish "piece" was partially lifted from the table by the Romans, the previous conquerors of the Holy Land.

The Jews tried to make due as an entirely Diaspora people. We shifted from a priestly system, which required the Temple, to a system based on teachers, or "rabbis". From a theological point of view, the innovation worked rather well. From a survival standpoint, it was decidedly a mixed bag.

Initially, the Jews got along rather well with the Mohammedans, at least the ones on the fringes of their empire, far from the Meccan core. Thus, the Jews and the Moors collaborated quite productively. Though the Jews were "dhimmis" the oppression was light, and the revenue contribution from the "ghiza" (sp) or tax to Muslims paid by non-Muslim "peoples of the book" helped maintain the empire.

The Christians, overtaking the Muslims, considered the Jews likely trouble, given their association with the Moors. Many were burned at the stake, and all were expelled from Spain and Portugal. Some remained under cover, thus the small Jewish population in Portugal (others came as refugees from the Nazis).

The Jews' situation in the rest of Europe was always a fickle, mixed affair. Royalty loved having Jews when they needed commerce, or to borrow money. Other times, they became inconvenient. Many ultimately moved or feld to Eastern Europe, which for a time had a welcome mat out for them. This ended, tragically, in a series of massacres called "pogroms". Jews began fleeing to America at rather high rates during the 1890's, and through to about the beginning of WW I. After the US slammed the immigration gates shut during the 1920's, many fled to Canada.

Almost all of the remaining Jews in Continental Europe, except Italy, Spain and Portugal were butchered in the Holocaust. That cut our numbers from about 18 million worldwide to about 12 million. It was clear to all thinking peole that the Jewish piece of the jigsaw puzzle needed a place, and mandatory Palestine was that place. The Jews could have, easily, memorialized what would have been justifiable rage at the world's indifference at best, murderousness at worst, by forming cells or groups dedicated to butchering offending Europeans and their remnants, such as French, Germans, Poles, Ukrainians and Russians. They could have justified attacks on the USA and Canada because of their willful refusal to accept refugees. Instead, post-the war, they helped all of these countries that were willing to take them rebuild.

Muslims had chewed each other up in wars, and forced each other to move. Why are the Jews asking too much when they desire to live in piece on land not much bigger than Prince Edward Island?

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The plight of the Palestinians is a tragedy, but it can largely be blamed ON Arab states. They urged them to flee, they urged them not to go back, they refused to sign a peace with Israel, and they refused to allow the refugees to become citizens.

What utter nonsense!

Urging Palestinians to flee was: (1) reasonable, given the expulsion activities being carried out by Isreali forces, and (2) in no way the cause of the confiscation and continuing exclusion of these people.

Arab states' not signing a peace deal with Israel is because there has been no redress for the Palestinians. You need to keep the concept of cause and effect more clear in your head, it seems.

No states' have any obligation to accept masses of refugees as citizens. But hey, where are these refugees from, anyway? Israel/Occupied Palestine, right?

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FYI (Rue in particular): BBC had a site with detailed information on the history of Middle East conflict. Google search must find it in a flash. Please consult it (BBC being a respectable source of information) for the factual background on the recent history of the region.

I don't regard the BBC as being a respectable source of information on the Arab-Israeli dispute. I regard the BBC as foresquare and unapologetically on the side of the Palestinians and with no moral or ethical problems with slanting stories so as to make Israel look bad and the Arabs look good - or at least, better.

But wouldn't you say the same of anyone who doesn't accept foursquare the Bush/Likud worldview?

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I guess I messed this up somehow, because I can't get the quote feature to work properly for this many quotes. Anyways, I added my responses in bold.

... the legal solution is to seek reciprocal agreements not one way agreements.

I'm with you there.

That said, and once and for all, the decision to reject the Belfour declaration or the right of Jews to a sovereign state in the Middle East rests with the Arab League of Nations.

Well no. In fact, according to Israeli historian Tom Segev (One Palestine Complete. Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate"), the Brits themselves came to the conclusion that the Balfour Declaration was a mistake. Also I think it is important to elucidate exactly what the Balfour Declaration was... It was a letter written by Lord Balfour, British Foreign Secretary, to Lord Rothschild. It was not an act of Parliament.

It was the Arab League of Nations which chose to ignore the United Nations, and declare a war with the clear and unequivocal intent to defeat the UN Resolution to allow a State for Jews. In so doing, the Arab League

in 1948 chose deliberately, to go all or nothing. It could have had a two state solution in 1948 and chose not to and to basically say-no we want it all.

The Zionists had decided very early on (Ze'ev Jabotisnky: The Iron Wall) that the only way to deal with the Palestinian Arabs was through the brute force of superior military might. Even Ben Gurion acknowledged that if he were a Palestinian Arab, he would have revolted as well (ibid:Segev)

The 1949 border of Israel was created de facto as a result of war, not by law. De facto borders, if not

disturbed or challenged over an uninterupted period of time, say at least 50 years, can then become recognized in international law as legal borders.

The Hagganah drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians off of their land. Shortly after, Israel passed the Laws of Abandonment which give it the right to all lands abandonned in a very short period of time. They then closed the borders to all Palestinians so they couldn't come back to reclaim their land. This did not happen over a period of 50 years, but less than 2 years.

The technical reality is that Israel was forced by a war against it, to fight for the borders it came up with in 1949. They were not defined by the UN but defined as the de facto result of war.

I guess I am having a problem figuring this one out. The UN passed a resolution defining partitioned states for both the Jews and the Arabs. After the war, Israel ended up with considerably more than that.

The Arab League of Nations by law, is directly legally responsible for the decision to go to war and to this date has refused to accept legal responsibility for the displaced Palestinians.

O my. The Arab League went to war over this. And now, they are the culprits?

You can try pretend the Arab League is not legally responsible and did not start the war and Israel just popped up from nowhere but that is pure b.s.

Well in fact Israel did just pop up out of nowhere.

The Arab League of Nations instructed Palestinians to abandon their property and flee what is now Israel. That is fact corroborated and proven and not in dispute by anyone who has bothered to read history or takes the time to read neutral sources.

Not really. The Hagganah (soon to become the IDF) along with the Irgun and the Stern Gang drove many of them off of their land. Ben Gurion gave the instructions himself. (ibid: Segev; Shalim, Avi, The Iron Wall)

The Arab League told Palestinians the war would be over in a few weeks and they would be able to come back. When the Arab League of Nations lost to the Jews of Palestine who then declared an Israeli nation, the Arab League ignored and abandoned the Palestinians.

Not true. The Syrians offered to take half of the Palestinian refugees and house them in northern Syria in exchange for half of the Sea of Galilee. This is the same water agreement that Canada now has with the US on the Great Lakes. Israel refused.

I any case, my Aunt who recalls the atmosphere in Canada at the outbreak of WWII in Europe, tells this tale: her ma (my gran) said, "Well at least son (my old man) won't have to go." It was commonly held at the time that the war would not hold more than a few weeks. Three years later, he was on a ship crossing the North Atlantic. We are all lucky we got him back.

It had the legal and moral obligation to resettle any who wanted to move to Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq,

Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc., but deliberately refused to do so.

They did a hell of a lot more than the Americans or, for that matter, we did, to accommodate Jews fleeing the Holocaust.

The Arab League of Nations made a deliberate choice to isolate and leave Palestinians in camps to serve as a political tool to pressure the UN into dismantling Israel.

Jordan has made every effort to assimilate the Palestinians. The Queen of Jordan is a Palestinian.

Any talk of the Arab League recognizing Israel's 1949 borders or its right to exist are a joke. With the exceotion of Egypt no Arab League nation recognizes Israel's right to exist so the fact is we have a league of nations that lost a war, uses Palestinians as political pawns and to this day, ignores its moral obligations to Palestinians.

King Abdullah of Jordan was the first. He worked out a secret agreement with Golda Meier (before she became PM) that if Israel would let Jordan Annex the West Bank, Jordan would respect Israel's borders. They were, in the words of the Israelis themselves, "The Best of Enemies". Unfortunately, the Israelis later broke the agreement.

In a cruel twist of irony the Palestinians have become the Jews of the Arab world. They are despised in Arab countries and not trusted and are not welcomed. Yes it is easier to blame and scapegoat Israel then for the Arab League of Nations to examine its internal human rights record and treatment not just of Palestinians but fellow Muslims of different sects.

What is your point of reference here? Which Arab countries are they despised in? Please name them all.

Hezbollah and Hamas have no legal status to represent Palestinians as much as you would like to pretend they are democractically elected political interest groups. As long as they choose to engage in attacking and killing civilians and engaging in terrorism they do not have any legal rights because they are in fact engaging in crime, pure and simple.

OK. And what do you call extra-judicial execution?

No sovereign nation which Israel is, can negotiate with criminals. It can on the other hand negotiate with non criminals.

OK. And under whose system of justice are you defining criminals?

The UN has failed in its mandate to de-arm militias and contro terrorism so that peaceful Palestinians can sit and negotiate. The UN has allowed itself to become an arena where the Arab League has been able to

use the UN to revise history and escape any moral responsibility for looking after Palestinians.

There is not a single Arab League country in the Security Council, where all the power lies. Maybe that's the problem.

Once and for all if there is to be compensation to the Palestinians, it must be by the Arab League of Nations which advised them to flee, and has to this day, left them abandoned when it could have resettled millions of them and/or funded repatriation schemes with the Israeli government it refuses to recognize.

It is now agreed by historians that the supposed radio broadcasts advising Arabs to flee Palestine never occurred. Interviews with Palestinian refugees all agree that they were forced to flee by shelling from Jewish forces. This is in keeping with the Iron Wall strategy of the Zionists from the years of the British Mandate.

What has to happen now is the Arab League needs to help build a country in the Gaza and West Bank.

It has had the opportunity to do so and continues to refuse.

Not at all. Egypt has done a lot, although I would agree, that it has not doneall that it can. Despite this, Anwar Sadat was assassinated for signing a peace treaty with Israel. Jordan is poor as a churchmouse. Lebanon has been under constant attack from Israel and has little to spare.

Instead we have Iran and Saudi Arabia funding terrorist groups. We have Syria funding and sheltering terrorist groups. We have Muslim clerics and politicians of every stripe in the Middle East engaging in open promulgation and hatred of not just Israel but all Jews world-wide, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, Buddists, Hindus, etc.

You kow, I am wondering why it is that guys like you see Pat Robertson, The Pope, Billy Graham and the Archbishop of Canterbury as distinct parts of the whole and yet you see the Moslem world as monolithic. Can you enlighten me?

Israel has a moral responsibility to feed and look after its own citizens. It is in fact bankrupt and can barely stay afloat and would not exist without US economic aid. It has struggled since 1949 because every ounce of its economy has been forced to be poured into the military to constantly defend it.

Yes and a lot of ounces of the US economy!

As for the Palestinian world, to say the West should compensate it is ludicrous. Since 1949 the West has financially funded Palestinians not the Arab League and what and where has it gotten the West. The PLO plundered the aid funds and hid it inn Swiss bank accounts where fat corupt PLO officials have lived off the money while their fellow citizens starve. Terrorist groups such as Hamas set up schools, hospitals, and community services, but because they believe the only solution is to wipe Israel off the face of the map, have refused to allow Palestinians to work and live side by side Israelis. Hamas has destroyed any economic projects Israel tried to set up with Palestinians including expensive green-houses that would have made Palestinians self-sufficient in food production but Hamas preferred to destroy.

I agree that the PLO has been a corrupt. The Palestinians agree. It's really a toss of the dice isn't it? The Brits tossed the dice in India and they got Gandhi and Jinnah. And still, lakhs were put the sword on both sides. The Israelis tossed the dice in Palestine and they got Arafat.

[/b]

Israel is going nowhere. Neither are the Palestinians.

I guess we agree on that.

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Why are the Jews asking too much when they desire to live in piece on land not much bigger than Prince Edward Island?

I don't know how you can ignore the issue that it was somebody elses' land.

We could all go back to the Great Rift Valley with that logic. Why don't you give your house to the Crees?

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We could all go back to the Great Rift Valley with that logic. Why don't you give your house to the Crees?

On the other hand, we could negotiate land settlements with the Cree. And in fact, we damned well should. And the rest too.

Consider the wealth that is being generated by the James Bay power project. We provided the technology. They provided the land.

As far as I am concerned, this is like a farmer who owns land on which oil is discovered.

And now is a damned good time to come to terms, when we are flush with cash.

Carpe Diem! On both sides.

Peace and respect if it is done right.

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The refusal of the Arab nations to accept the resolution that proposed a partioned state wasnt surprising. Having an European imposed settlement creating a state of people with European ancestory would be a complete return to colonialism. It was of course going to be unacceptable to the Arab nations. So yes they do desrve some of the blame for the state of the region today......but not all of it.

Balfour Declaration: at the time only 10% of the area was in fact Jewish with 90% being indigenous palestinian. Why would they accept an agreement being put forth by an occupying power to take away land when they were the absolute majority? When the League of Nations gave the UK power to put forth the Balfour Declaration in 1922 the Palestinians, or any other Arab State, werent given any position to negoiate the settlement. With a history of having solutions imposed by occupying powers it isnt overly surprising they werent jumping at the UN's proposed partioning after ww2. To them this was just another time where the west was imposing its will over the region.

Your views are respected and of course fair comment. What I would say is, that it is not accurate to define Jews as simply being of European ancestry. This is just not true. Ashkanazi Jews are Jews whose blood has been inter-bred, but its origins are not from Europe but the lost twelve tribes of Semites. Certainly Tsfardic Jews are clearly not of European origin and are African and Arab Jews or dark skinned Jews of different cultural tradition. It is a misnomer to define Jews as simply being European. This is a concept based on ignorance as to what the origins of Jews really are.

It is the same ignorance that defines Zionism simply as a European colonialist notion. It is not just a nationalist ideology. It is a religious concept that flows directly from the Bible and the belief that Jews have a spiritual convenant from God to the land in Israel, and whether Jews travelled from the Middle East to Europe and settled there, does not change the fact that they are ancestors of aboriginal peoples of the Middle East.

I understand however perfectly your point that to the Arab and Muslim world, the idea of a Jewish state would be seen as a threat from Europe. I think though it is also important to point out that while trendy left wingers like to say the Arab world deemed Israel a colonialist European imperialist imposition, this is precisely that, a trendy left wing invention.

In the real world of Islam, its deeper then that. In the real Muslim world, dhimmitude prevails and that is a belief that neither Christians or Jews even if they were born in the Middle East and have continued roots there, are NOT entitled to any property rights or equal rights as Muslims. Its more complicated then just describing it as neo-colonialism because it has deep religious roots that create intolerance and discrimination that having nothing to do with the fact that Israel was created.

The fact is Christians and Jews have lived in Palestine UNINTERUPTED since Biblical days but had their rights taken away by Romans, Greeks, Turks, etc.

The Arab League chose to reject the UN partition plan because it was following its Muslim beliefs that neither Jews or Christians should be permitted to own land or be self-governing. This is a deeply entrenched religious belief that has not changed.

European Christians who first felt guilty for the holocaust and felt Jews should be allowed to return to Israel, now are the same Christians who feel Jews are evil for having returned to Israel.

The European Christian world has demonstrated a complete and total hippocracy towards the fact it created a holocaust and was responsible for over 3,500 years of persecution of Jews and refusing to allow Jews to own lands. In that regard the Muslims in the Muslim world are no different. No they did not engage in the same level of genocide, but they certainly practiced the same level of discrimination.

Had the Arab League allowed the Jews a tiny country all of this would not be discussed.

The other point I would like to make is that the legal rights Jews claim to Israel were not based on their population size at the time.

That said you raise an obvious interesting point. For Israel a democractic state to remain Jewish by nature, its population would have to have its Jewish portion of that population out-number its Muslim or Christian populations. The current birth rate is something like 8 Muslim Israelis to one Jewish Israeli, so if we project that into the future, say to the year 2030, Jews could be a minority in Israel which of course would bring into question the idea it could remain democractic but Jewish.

In the Muslim world they do not worry about such things because their policy of dhimmitude and killing off of or discriminating againstnon Muslims (Zoroastreans, Bahaiis,Jews, Christians,) makes it a moot point. Unlike Israel, no Muslim country allows non Muslims property ownership rights or even business ownership rights.Morrocco is the only Muslim country that has allowed a relatively tolerant level of cooperation with its Jews, and that is directly because of the traditions flowing from its King. It is an exception to the rule. Jews in Muslim countries can deal with one another or Christians but things get very complex when they want to deal outside their own communities which are in fact enforced ghettoes.

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