Immigration and Language laws.

[daddyhominum]

The othe morning, Phillip Till was stirring up a pot on CKNW, Vancouver, asking for comments on immigrants and English skills. I was struck by the irony created when many callers phoned or emailed him expressing a demand that immigrants learn English.

The irony arises because,for years, English-radio talk shows beat the Quebec language law about the head and shoulders(metaphorically) because it makes the use of French mandatory.

So the two solitudes seem to include a french only law in Quebec that is hated by an English Canada that demands English -only from immigrants. How lovely!

My position is that language laws are unneccesary in a free society.That immigrants and others are free to speak whatever language they want, run business in whatever language, and do anything of a personal or private nature according to their own wishes.

At the same time, all business of a public nature relating to the government of Canada and all its subordinate patrs must be conducted in English or French as provided by law.

Why should immigrants be required to speak English if they don't want to do so?

[cybercoma]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

[Argus]

The othe morning, Phillip Till was stirring up a pot on CKNW, Vancouver, asking for comments on immigrants and English skills. I was struck by the irony created when many callers phoned or emailed him expressing a demand that immigrants learn English.

The irony arises because,for years, English-radio talk shows beat the Quebec language law about the head and shoulders(metaphorically) because it makes the use of French mandatory.

So the two solitudes seem to include a french only law in Quebec that is hated by an English Canada that demands English -only from immigrants. How lovely!

Apparently, the difference between rules and laws which can or should be applied to Canadians in how they conduct business and deal with government - and the requirements for immigration to Canada - confound you.

Why should immigrants be required to speak English if they don't want to do so?

Why should we let them into our country in the first place? We really don't need them. They bring endless social trouble, crime and problems with them. The least we can demand is they be able to speak the language of the nation they are puportedly attempting to become a citizen of. It also helps to get a job. What do you expect all those well-educated university grads to do here when the best their English can manage is "Ju being wanting of ketchup wit dat?"

[daddyhominum]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

[bradco]

The othe morning, Phillip Till was stirring up a pot on CKNW, Vancouver, asking for comments on immigrants and English skills. I was struck by the irony created when many callers phoned or emailed him expressing a demand that immigrants learn English.

The irony arises because,for years, English-radio talk shows beat the Quebec language law about the head and shoulders(metaphorically) because it makes the use of French mandatory.

So the two solitudes seem to include a french only law in Quebec that is hated by an English Canada that demands English -only from immigrants. How lovely!

Apparently, the difference between rules and laws which can or should be applied to Canadians in how they conduct business and deal with government - and the requirements for immigration to Canada - confound you.

Why should immigrants be required to speak English if they don't want to do so?

Why should we let them into our country in the first place? We really don't need them. They bring endless social trouble, crime and problems with them. The least we can demand is they be able to speak the language of the nation they are puportedly attempting to become a citizen of. It also helps to get a job. What do you expect all those well-educated university grads to do here when the best their English can manage is "Ju being wanting of ketchup wit dat?"

Why should we let immigrants into our country?

-the simple answer? We NEED them. Canada, along with pretty much all other industrialized nations has seen a drastic decrease in natural population growth. The trend of declining natural growth will continue probably until natural growth is zero, possibly even negative. You way be aware, or maybe not, but there is a large bracket of people we refer to as the "baby boomers". In order to pay the social costs of keeping these people alive once they retire and reach the end of their lifes will be astronomical. We will need people working to pay taxes to pay for hip replacements. Its really not that hard to understand. Take a look at a population pyramid for Canada....

I guess the problem is that you possess a socially constructed belief (Albertan? Grew up in rural area? just kidding) that immigration is inherently evil. I get this from your comment that "They bring endless social trouble, crime and problems with them". Usually if I am to make a bold comment like that I would want to cite some sort of research that proves this statement. The prevalence of such things in the media doesn't count since I think we can all agree that isnt exactly a "scientific study".

Anyways I am in agreement that if you are moving to a country you should learn the langauage. Its just common sense thats all. That being said there is no way to know how long anyone has lived here that you meet when picking up your BigMac and fries. Maybe they just moved here and they are only beginning to learn english. As someone currently working on learning French I can say acquiring a second langauge is not something that happens overnight.

[geoffrey]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

No actually they can't. There is a consumer protection act, sets aside grounds that are illegal to discriminate your services too, national origin being one I believe.

That being said, if they can't understand the contractual agreement they are entering, you have a legal defense in my opinion not selling an item or service to them in fear that the contract would be voidable on incapacity to contract grounds.

Ask one of the many lawyers around here on this one though...

[daddyhominum]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

No actually they can't. There is a consumer protection act, sets aside grounds that are illegal to discriminate your services too, national origin being one I believe.

I read through the Consumer Protection Act for BC at http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/C/96069_01.htm. It does not mention any such requirement.

You may be thinking of possible objections to a refusal to sell under the Charter of Rights for a specific instance. But I don't think there is any requirement to serve anyone because of their national origin. I would be pleased to be corrected if you have a cite.

[August1991]

My position is that language laws are unneccesary in a free society.

Really?

In a free society, what laws are required?

Forget language laws. (Forget Canadian history.) In 2126, if your great granddaughter speaks Arabic, what written text would you want to leave for her?

Francophones in Quebec have survived for several centuries - despite all. I think we'll survive for several centuries more. (The onus is on you to explain how your offspring will survive. Have you raised your children to survive?)

[Argus]

My position is that language laws are unneccesary in a free society.

Really?

In a free society, what laws are required?

Forget language laws. (Forget Canadian history.) In 2126, if your great granddaughter speaks Arabic, what written text would you want to leave for her?

Francophones in Quebec have survived for several centuries - despite all. I think we'll survive for several centuries more. (The onus is on you to explain how your offspring will survive. Have you raised your children to survive?)

What you French have never seemed to grasp is that the rest of us are not obsessed with the language our descendants will speak. It does not bring tears to my eyes to think that in a century or two people here may be speaking Cantonese or Arabic or Swahili. I don't speak the language of my ancestors, and I imagine in a century or two or three, people will be speaking another language as well.

Only the French - in all the world - believe their language, as inefficient, complex, and long-winded as it is, is the heart and soul of their entire people and must never ever change.

[daddyhominum]

My position is that language laws are unneccesary in a free society.

Really?

In a free society, what laws are required?

Presumably, laws that create a free society.

In your opinion, hould english Canada have a language law similar to the law in Quebec that requires the use of English only?

[M.Dancer]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

ummm.....how do you refuse someone who's request in not understood?

Me: (speaking in Whatangamoro) I would like a pair of grey flannel pantaloons, thank you kindly!

Salesclerk (not understanding Whatangamoro) I'm sorry?

[Leafless]

My position is that language laws are unneccesary in a free society.

Really?

In a free society, what laws are required?

Presumably, laws that create a free society.

In your opinion, hould english Canada have a language law similar to the law in Quebec that requires the use of English only?

That is a distinct possibility.

All provinces in Canada have the right to declare their majority language 'official' similar to what Quebec did with their language.

The process is the same in the U.S. where there are states that have declared themselves officially English separate from the federal version if applicable.

[M.Dancer]

Why should immigrants be required to speak English if they don't want to do so?

Mordechai Richler's mother used to get frustrated over the fact that someone could live their entire life in Montreal and not know how to speak yiddish.

Immigrants are required to learn the language....if they want to succed. I meet with immigrants almost every day....true if you meet their parents or grandparents, they might not speak emhlish so well, but the sponsors who brought them here, the engineers, the doctors, programmers and entrepreneurs....all speak well.

So no....let market realities rule

[M.Dancer]

Why should we let them into our country in the first place? We really don't need them. They bring endless social trouble, crime and problems with them.

Do you think you could generalize a little more. Your broad sweeping back stroke wasn't bigoted or ignorant enough for everyone to grasp.

[M.Dancer]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

Within reason and within the law. You can't refuse to serve someone becuase of the race, etc etc

[kimmy]

The othe morning, Phillip Till was stirring up a pot on CKNW, Vancouver, asking for comments on immigrants and English skills. I was struck by the irony created when many callers phoned or emailed him expressing a demand that immigrants learn English.

The irony arises because,for years, English-radio talk shows beat the Quebec language law about the head and shoulders(metaphorically) because it makes the use of French mandatory.

So the two solitudes seem to include a french only law in Quebec that is hated by an English Canada that demands English -only from immigrants. How lovely!

Demanding that immigrants learn English, and demanding English-only are not the same thing.

While I have heard people demand that immigrants learn English, I have never heard anyone say that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to use their own languages as well.

-k

[Chrissy1979]

Why should we let them into our country in the first place? We really don't need them. They bring endless social trouble, crime and problems with them.

I don't speak the language of my ancestors, and I imagine in a century or two or three, people will be speaking another language as well.

So your ancestors were non-English speaking immigrants? Maybe you're right that they shouldn't have been let in if they left us with the likes of you.

[daddyhominum]

Why should immigrants be required to speak English if they don't want to do so?

Mordechai Richler's mother used to get frustrated over the fact that someone could live their entire life in Montreal and not know how to speak yiddish.

Immigrants are required to learn the language....if they want to succed. I meet with immigrants almost every day....true if you meet their parents or grandparents, they might not speak emhlish so well, but the sponsors who brought them here, the engineers, the doctors, programmers and entrepreneurs....all speak well.

So no....let market realities rule

That seems sensible to me.

I remember 1947 better then I remember 1997. In 1947, I played with children whose parents spoke neither English or French and still spoke three or four languages. They lived together with others from their homeland in prairie settlements or city neighbourhoods. They bought and sold without a problem and they were productive taxpayers. Their children and grandchildren became the hockey stars, judges, and politicians of the next generation.

My dad was always frustrated by what he saw as the stubborn refusal to learn English after immigrating to Canada but he had an ear for language. I have a great deal of empathy for those who come to Canada and are unable to learn spoken English because I have no ear for language. I can read most German and don't do too poorly reading French but if someone starts talking to me in either language, I understand nothing.

I admire the people who take the risk of immigrating to Canada. I think it demonstrates a determination to succeed that was so much in the character of the pioneers.

[daddyhominum]

The othe morning, Phillip Till was stirring up a pot on CKNW, Vancouver, asking for comments on immigrants and English skills. I was struck by the irony created when many callers phoned or emailed him expressing a demand that immigrants learn English.

The irony arises because,for years, English-radio talk shows beat the Quebec language law about the head and shoulders(metaphorically) because it makes the use of French mandatory.

So the two solitudes seem to include a french only law in Quebec that is hated by an English Canada that demands English -only from immigrants. How lovely!

Demanding that immigrants learn English, and demanding English-only are not the same thing.

While I have heard people demand that immigrants learn English, I have never heard anyone say that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to use their own languages as well.

Nor does the Quebec law outlaw foreign languages from all use, only from public usage.

[Wilber]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

Within reason and within the law. You can't refuse to serve someone becuase of the race, etc etc

There are some stores in Richmond BC where if you aren't Chinese, you are not welcome. You are not refused, just ignored which amounts to the same thing.

[M.Dancer]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

Within reason and within the law. You can't refuse to serve someone becuase of the race, etc etc

There are some stores in Richmond BC where if you aren't Chinese, you are not welcome. You are not refused, just ignored which amounts to the same thing.

And this anecdotal piece of info signifies what?

[Wilber]

The othe morning, Phillip Till was stirring up a pot on CKNW, Vancouver, asking for comments on immigrants and English skills. I was struck by the irony created when many callers phoned or emailed him expressing a demand that immigrants learn English.

The irony arises because,for years, English-radio talk shows beat the Quebec language law about the head and shoulders(metaphorically) because it makes the use of French mandatory.

So the two solitudes seem to include a french only law in Quebec that is hated by an English Canada that demands English -only from immigrants. How lovely!

My position is that language laws are unneccesary in a free society.That immigrants and others are free to speak whatever language they want, run business in whatever language, and do anything of a personal or private nature according to their own wishes.

At the same time, all business of a public nature relating to the government of Canada and all its subordinate patrs must be conducted in English or French as provided by law.

Why should immigrants be required to speak English if they don't want to do so?

Not the same thing. No one is demanding English only and very few people out west would stand for a law which dictates the language a business can use on the sign outside their door.

[daddyhominum]

Should businesses be allowed to refuse serving customers they can't understand?

As far as I know, a business can refuse to serve anyone for any reason.

Within reason and within the law. You can't refuse to serve someone becuase of the race, etc etc

There are some stores in Richmond BC where if you aren't Chinese, you are not welcome. You are not refused, just ignored which amounts to the same thing.

Richmond's insular Chinese community was a major source of complaint on the program, especially not being served. And many of those complaining were themselves immigrants from India or non-Chinese areas of South Asia. It is a large, quite wealthy community, with enough talent and clout to maintain a very independent status.

Is it a problem? or is it freedom of choice?

[Wilber]

Is it a problem? or is it freedom of choice?

No particular reason it can't be both.

[Argus]

I don't speak the language of my ancestors, and I imagine in a century or two or three, people will be speaking another language as well.

So your ancestors were non-English speaking immigrants? Maybe you're right that they shouldn't have been let in if they left us with the likes of you.

Dear Chrissy,

Most of us learn, as we reach maturity, that if we have nothing of substance to offer, we look less foolish by simply keeping silent. We all welcome the day you discover this as well.