Alberta's Incompetent Government

[August1991]

What's this I read?

This so-called Conservative government now outspends every other provincial government in Canada on a per capita basis, even more than the federal government.

It has more government employees per capita than any other provincial government and the federal government.

Link

What is Klein's great claim to fame?

Klein lingers -- on life support -- only because he conquered the debt and balanced the budget.

I have argued repeatedly on this forum that a balanced government budget or the absence of government debt are no indication of a government's fiscal competence. Instead, one should look at government spending.

By all accounts, Klein's PC government has been utterly incompetent because it is spending money like a drunken sailor. But Albertans, with their homespun understanding of government, believe Klein was good because he balanced the budget.

So what did Albertans get with all these extra civil servants and extra government spending?

Klein team being rife with patronage and pork-barreling is now being quietly admitted.

That makes it look too good. Alberta would have been just as good to burn the oil and natural gas in a large bonfire. The effect would have been the same.

[kimmy]

There's little doubt that Klein's government has been sloppy, for a long time. But a Calgary Sun editorial cheerleading for Ted Morton is a source that has to be taken with a grain of salt. The idea of Ted Morton as premier makes me want to puke.

-k

[Black Dog]

I have argued repeatedly on this forum that a balanced government budget or the absence of government debt are no indication of a government's fiscal competence. Instead, one should look at government spending.

By all accounts, Klein's PC government has been utterly incompetent because it is spending money like a drunken sailor. But Albertans, with their homespun understanding of government, believe Klein was good because he balanced the budget.

Far be it from me to defend Klein and his government, but how is spending a measure of incompetence if you can afford it? Of course, I would agree that much of the money has been misspent and wasted, but I think fiscal competence boils down to spending within your means.

[Charles Anthony]

Far be it from me to defend Klein and his government, but how is spending a measure of incompetence if you can afford it?

I can suggest an example: government spending crowding out in a private market.

Imagine yourself operating a video rental store. The library across the street decides to starting lending out VHS movies for free. You lose business and go bankrupt.

Imagine yourself looking to renew a property rental lease. Your landlord gets an offer from the Federal Department of Job Creation, Waste and Basket-Weaving. You must match the unlimited financial pockets of the public purse to renew your lease.

I do not know if the above should qualify as "incompetent" but they certainly exemplify HOW public spending could be irresponsible or harmful. Granted, there is the opportunity (I will let the freeloaders decide what it is) for a "government" to step into the private sector but it invariably crowds out something.

I can not evaluate Alberta's government spending however, I will "hypothetically" pursue this issue further.

Imagine the government entering into the private sector in a niche that is empty. There is a need (example: health care) but no private enterprise fulfills it to our satisfaction. The government steps in and we are all happy. The future may lead to the public service building up a dependency by making it IMPOSSIBLE for new private enterprise from entering the market and fulfilling similar demands. Thus, we remain in a stagnant level of mediocrity.

It would be much better for a "government" to stimulate the creation of the specific market and step out of the market when private enterprise can take over. Unfortunately, such decision-making requires an immense amount of free-market forsight. However, selling off crown corporations is a start.

[August1991]

Far be it from me to defend Klein and his government, but how is spending a measure of incompetence if you can afford it? Of course, I would agree that much of the money has been misspent and wasted, but I think fiscal competence boils down to spending within your means.

My point is that whether a government runs a deficit, surplus or balances its budget is completely irrelevant. No one should conclude anything from this alone. (This of course is entirely different from running a business or managing a family's finances.)

Instead, the important question for government is how high spending is and what governments are buying.

It is true that in the long run, government debt cannot grow faster than overall economic growth but then in the long run, government expenditure can't grow faster than economic growth either.

You can criticise Bush for buying all those ASVs but you can't criticise him for running a deficit.

----

I get the impression that Klein just blew all the money the government earned but no one noticed because they were only looking at the bottom line and debt. A Heritage Fund, lower taxes or returning the money through oil cheques would be better.

Do Albertans have to pay a health insurance premium? If so, that's crazy.

[August1991]

I fear I didn't respond to your question.

Far be it from me to defend Klein and his government, but how is spending a measure of incompetence if you can afford it?

When you can spend someone else's money, being able "to afford" something is no longer a criteria. The Albertan government can afford anything it wants - it has direct access to the bank accounts of the wealthiest people in Canada or if it wants, it can borrow in their name.

In such a situation, it makes no sense to defend a purchase because it was paid for by cheque rather than by credit card.

It doesn't matter whether Klein paid for all his pork-barreling with borrowed money or taxes. What matters is all the pork-barreling. I'll bet too that alot of this pork-barreling were small oil-related firms in Calgary and social agencies in Edmonton. Klein would have been better to mail them all a cheque and let them do something else with their time. Or he could have left the oil in the ground for future generations, or saved the revenues in a Heritage Fund.

----

Imagine yourself operating a video rental store. The library across the street decides to starting lending out VHS movies for free. You lose business and go bankrupt.

To be properly hypothetical, when the library across the street opened up a video lending service, it presumably hired someone to operate this section. If that person was previously unemployed, and you become unemployed due to your bankrupt business, then all we've done is replace one unemployed person by another. It's a wash.

My point is that to get the money to pay the salary of the library employee, it is irrelevant whether the government raises taxes on the rest of us or borrows from foreigners. What matters is whether the best way to lend out videos is through a public library or a private shop.

I'm inclined to go with the private shop, and here's why. At the library, the lending is "free". There may be waiting lists but no one really knows what videos people value most. Librarians arbitrarily order new videos. Hollywood doesn't know what movies to make.

The entire incentive structure of the marketplace collapses and we wind up with the Soviet Union, or Canada's health system.

[Charles Anthony]

My point is that to get the money to pay the salary of the library employee, it is irrelevant whether the government raises taxes on the rest of us or borrows from foreigners. What matters is whether we the best way to lend out videos is through a public library or a private shop.

I do not believe that is the only thing that matters. Since the government forces us to use their counterfeit (-- I mean, money), does the level of government borrowing or spending not impact the interest rates we face?

I'm inclined to go with the private shop,

Me too. However, even if the private shop was ineffective at meeting demand, I would still condemn the library.

The entire incentive structure of the marketplace collapses and we wind up with the Soviet Union, or Canada's health system.

Which do you hold dear: the incentive structure or free enterprise?

[FTA Lawyer]

I'm confused by Charles' and Augusts' posts criticising government involvement in private markets and denouncing Soviet-Union like economic situations in a thread calling the Klein gov't incompetent...

Klein has suffered some of his biggest fire-storms of public outcry because he got out of telecommunications (privatising Alberta Government Telephones...now known as Telus) deregulated electricity (leaving it to private market forces to dictate the price) privatized most secondary "government services" like vital stats & motor vehicle registries, has built many public projects through "P3 Partnerships" which effectively have the government share costs with private corporations who ultimately become landlords or other interested stakeholders, refused to bow to a huge lobby looking for government auto insurance, opened the way for private surgical and diagnostic imaging facilities, lowered corporate tax rates and attracted an unprecedented wave of corporate head offices moving to Alberta etc. etc.

I'm not sure what info. the Sun columnist relies on for his portrayal of Alberta as having an out of control ballooning government (because he cites no such info...a la top-notch Sun journalism standards) and I'm not sure what government interefernce with private enterprise Charles and August are pointing to...but I'm pretty sure that if not for Klein's favour toward private enterprise instead of governments doing business, we would have far more government departments, employees, and interference with the marketplace than we do today in Alberta.

FTA

[August1991]

I'm not sure what info. the Sun columnist relies on for his portrayal of Alberta as having an out of control ballooning government (because he cites no such info...a la top-notch Sun journalism standards)...

I think that's the key point, Counsellor.

Where did this columnist get the statistic that the Albertan government spends more per capita than any other government in Canada, or that it has more civil servants per capita. Dunno.

I do know that measuring such statistics is almost impossible since civil servants and government spending come in myriad forms.

Here's another (PEI) journalistic source:

In this instance AIMS compared how many provincial and local government employees there were for every 1,000 people in each province. Ontario had the fewest with just over 65 civil servants per 1,000. Alberta had just under 75, while the Island has 90. The worst offenders are Manitoba with 105 and Saskatchewan with nearly 110 per 1,000 people.

Link

So maybe Regina is the civil service capital of Canada.

[kimmy]

If money was truly wasted, then I think questioning the competence of the government is legitimate, even if the sum of money wasted was within their budgetary means.

And I don't doubt that in terms of small-scale pork-barrelling and carelessness and expenditure without due diligence, Alberta's government is as bad as any government in the country. It seems like an inevitable consequence of having neither credible opposition nor a vigilant press... two situations more applicable in Alberta than in any other province.

On the other hand, I don't think that Alberta's government is particularly prone to the kinds of adventurous projects that have resulted in catastrophic financial mismanagement in some provinces. (BC's ferry-building experience being a prime example.)

And, I did say earlier that a Calgary Sun editorial that's a thinly veiled plug for Ted Morton's campaign is hardly the most reliable source of information... and sure enough it turns out that some of the claims seem dubious and others are poorly supported.

-k

[fellowtraveller]

So maybe Regina is the civil service capital of Canada.

Regina is not even a contender when compared to Whitehorse or Iqaluit. The major industry in Yukon is government, with major representation from the federal, municipal, federal and very prominently the First Nations levels.

All for 30,000 people. Anywhere else, that many people would be 'governed' by six councillors on honorariums and a parttime mayor. Ultimately, virtually all the money required to operate this quagmire of bureaucracy comes from the federal purse.

[jdobbin]

The record for longest serving single party in office is the Liberals in Nova Scotia at 43 years.

I think there is no danger that the Conservatives are going to lose because I don't believe anyone really believes they are incompetent.

It's funny that Loughheed won election primarily on the idea that more than 30 years in office for a signle party was unhealthly for provinical politics.

I don't think the Tories will ever be defeated in the near, mid or long term future. It is a wonder that any other political party runs in Alberta. It should be a single party province.

[Canuck E Stan]

It should be a single party province.

And it is......so what's the problem?

Any province that has no worthy opposition becomes a single party province.

It's not the party's fault,it's the fault of the opposition that can't convince the voter to change.

Bottom line is the voter gets what they vote for.

And in the following election they get to vote again.

That's how the process works.

[jdobbin]

And it is......so what's the problem?

Any province that has no worthy opposition becomes a single province party.

It's not the party's fault,it's the fault of the opposition that can't convince the voter to change.

Bottom line is the voter gets what they vote for.

And in the following election they get to vote again.

That's how the process works.

Didn't say it was a problem. I was saying that the oppositon shouldn't even bother. They should all join the Conservative party.

[kimmy]

The record for longest serving single party in office is the Liberals in Nova Scotia at 43 years.

I think there is no danger that the Conservatives are going to lose because I don't believe anyone really believes they are incompetent.

It's funny that Loughheed won election primarily on the idea that more than 30 years in office for a signle party was unhealthly for provinical politics.

I don't think the Tories will ever be defeated in the near, mid or long term future. It is a wonder that any other political party runs in Alberta. It should be a single party province.

I am told that Don Getty was an enormous failure as premier, and that if he'd stayed on much longer the PCs would have opened the door for the opposition parties. They averted their demise by hastily reinventing themselves with Getty's departure and Klein's arrival.

If they choose a new leader who is as clueless as Getty is said to have been, the door will once again be open.

I am of course too young to remember much of Getty's reign, other than dad frequently grumbling about "football players" while watching the evening news. However, I believe Getty's time in office shows that Albertans' patience with the PC party is not infinite.

-k

[fellowtraveller]

And it is......so what's the problem?

Any province that has no worthy opposition becomes a single province party.

It's not the party's fault,it's the fault of the opposition that can't convince the voter to change.

Bottom line is the voter gets what they vote for.

And in the following election they get to vote again.

That's how the process works.

Didn't say it was a problem. I was saying that the oppositon shouldn't even bother. They should all join the Conservative party.

The Alberta PC Party hasd an interesting style for electing a new leader.

Nearly anybody can buy a $5 membership and vote for any of them.

In many ways, it is a direct election for Premier......

I know at least two people, one a NDP and the other a Liberal, who plan on buying memberships for just that reason.

[geoffrey]

The Alberta PC Party hasd an interesting style for electing a new leader.

Nearly anybody can buy a $5 membership and vote for any of them.

In many ways, it is a direct election for Premier......

I know at least two people, one a NDP and the other a Liberal, who plan on buying memberships for just that reason.

Good idea, whoever wins leadership will no doubt be Premier, good on the PC's for letting pretty much everyone have a vote.

[jdobbin]

The Alberta PC Party hasd an interesting style for electing a new leader.

Nearly anybody can buy a $5 membership and vote for any of them.

In many ways, it is a direct election for Premier......

I know at least two people, one a NDP and the other a Liberal, who plan on buying memberships for just that reason.

This is precisely what I mean. If the Liberals all quit the party, take out Conservative memberships and agree on a candidate, they could elect the next premier.

[jdobbin]

Good idea, whoever wins leadership will no doubt be Premier, good on the PC's for letting pretty much everyone have a vote.

That's why I suggested the NDP and Liberals should all join the Conservative party. There is only one political party there that matters.

[RWA]

The only two parties that have a realistic chance of winning is the PC party and the Canadian Alliance party.

[geoffrey]

The only two parties that have a realistic chance of winning is the PC party and the Canadian Alliance party.

It's the Alberta Alliance by the way, and they have no chance at winning since urban voters are smart enough not to elect them. They are pretty 'out there' in many ways. I'd bet on a comeback of the socreds before the AA wins.

[Black Dog]

And it is......so what's the problem?

Any province that has no worthy opposition becomes a single party province.

It's not the party's fault,it's the fault of the opposition that can't convince the voter to change.

Bottom line is the voter gets what they vote for.

And in the following election they get to vote again.

That's how the process works.

Maybe. But tell me: what happens when one party has infinite resources to spread its meassage while the others struggle on the margins (and indeed, ar epushe dtheir by the ruling party)? What hapens when the government denies oppossition parties a role in debating legislation or policy What happens when one party insinuates itself into every facet of political life so that membership in, or at least sympathy to, the party is a prerequisite for any high-level opportunity in politics or business? I'll tell you: you get the last 15 year sof Tory rule.

Me, I think this leadership change will set the Toreis' fortunes. In admitting that his government had no plan to govern Alberta during a time of unprecedented prosperity, Klein is creating an expectation that his successor must follow throuh on. If he doesn't (or if Ted Morton wins) then the Liberals will have a shot at making some noise within the next few years.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Here in Alberta we elect governments for extensive periods. We are truely conservative by nature. We are independent by nature as well. This isn't Italy, we don't just toss the baby out with the bath water. It takes some doing to get elected and it takes some doing to get thrown out.

Klein has outlived his usefullness, so it was time to go. The next leader of this province will get to deal with a big lump under the rug in the living room. There have been lots of things sweep under the carpet, so many so that you can see that there is something there, but you can tell what it is without actually going through the process of lifting up the carpet. That is what elections are all about, and the selection of a leader is only the prelude to the next election.

The next Premier will have to address the booming economy. Infrastructure is the name of the game and how to provide services for the people living in an expanding economy. The standard problems of healthcare and education funding will be dwarfed by the problematic immigration problems associated with the economic boom.

The problem that faces Albertans isn't the Conservative or Liberal Party. It isn't the NDP or the Alberta Alliance, and it certainly isn't the Social Credit or Green Party either. The problem is not related to political parties at all. The real problem is the parlimentary political system itself. The amount of power and authority of government is the root of the problem. It begins with the foundation of federalism and the nanny state. Albertans kick up almost 90% of the sum total of dollars donated to confederation in the form of equalization. This is an absolute rip off of Albertans, not the government of Alberta you understand, but the people who live here. Federal regulations limit the opportunities that Albertans can avail themselves of. The Dominion of Canada literally dominates Alberta at every turn. The problem starts with our continued membership in Canadian Confederation, but it does not end there. The same rot exists at the provincial level as well. There is legal graft and legalized corruption at every level of politics.

Unless the citizens that seek political office desire to become true public servants and provide actual representation of their constituents the situation will not improve and the problems that exist will not be resolved. It is the entire political system which needs to be changed before the potential of this province can be realized. Until we throw off the yoke of federalism we cannot even hope to reap the rewards of our efforts. Canadian politics supports corporations and big governments at the expense of the public. What I and many other Albertans desire is the political freedom to gain independence at both the personal and political level. We want to stand up for ourselves, seek our own destiny and work toward improving the human condition as defined by individual freedom and enhanced standards of living.

The next Premier of Alberta will be a Progressive Conservative Party member, that is a fact. However over the next few years such things as resource royalties and government spending will come to a head and at that point the Alberta Progressive Conservative Party will go the way of the Alberta Social Credit Party and end up where the Passenger Pigeon went. In much the same manner I might add, in as much as they will be politically slaughtered in great numbers to dissappear and never to be seen again.

[mcqueen625]

What's this I read?

This so-called Conservative government now outspends every other provincial government in Canada on a per capita basis, even more than the federal government.

It has more government employees per capita than any other provincial government and the federal government.

Link

What is Klein's great claim to fame?

Klein lingers -- on life support -- only because he conquered the debt and balanced the budget.

I have argued repeatedly on this forum that a balanced government budget or the absence of government debt are no indication of a government's fiscal competence. Instead, one should look at government spending.

By all accounts, Klein's PC government has been utterly incompetent because it is spending money like a drunken sailor. But Albertans, with their homespun understanding of government, believe Klein was good because he balanced the budget.

So what did Albertans get with all these extra civil servants and extra government spending?

Klein team being rife with patronage and pork-barreling is now being quietly admitted.

That makes it look too good. Alberta would have been just as good to burn the oil and natural gas in a large bonfire. The effect would have been the same.

They must have been doing something right, they are out of debt, which is more than I can say for any other province in Canada, and the people of Alberta pay no provincial sales tax.

Aside from Ontario, all the rest of the provinces, especially Quebec whines with their hands out like Oliver Twist; "Please sir, I want more."

[geoffrey]

Aside from Ontario, all the rest of the provinces, especially Quebec whines with their hands out like Oliver Twist; "Please sir, I want more."

Ontario whines about it to, haven't you heard McGuinty squeal like a two year old as more corporate head offices move West? "Ontario get's screwed by equalisation"... pfftt, you hooligans still pay 25% per capita of what we do. Suck it up.

Yup, it's a Canadian complex, kill the hen that lays the golden eggs. Especially with Quebec.