Canada's poor are getting poorer!

[Topaz]

That is what is being reported today in the news. It says that Alberta and New Brunswick pay less to the poor, poor meaning those on welfare and need help. I have no problem for a person being on welfare as long its a hand UP and not hand OUT! For those that NEED education, I think the provinces should make it easy for these people to get what they need to support themselves, as far as education is concerned. Lets face it. ALL people pay too much taxes and since the Harper jack up the lowest tax rate on the LOWEST rate, it going to get tougher for alot of people. The GST tax has done nothing for me, the saving I save would be $1.75 weekly, gee thanks Harper!!!!!!

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/24082006/2/nati...ear-assist.html

Here's the link.

[August1991]

The thread title is simply wrong.

This study compared a current typical monthly welfare payment to a welfare payment in previous years (correcting for inflation). The general conclusion is that welfare payments were more generous in the past than they are now. Well, duh. In Ontario, the NDP were in power between 1990-1995 and dramatically raised welfare payments (and provincial spending exploded). I'm not surprised to learn that welfare payments are about 30% lower in Ontario now than in 1992.

The sharpest reductions are for single people. No surprise there. Single youth living in their parents' basement could draw almost $1000/month in welfare in Onatrio in 1992. That's crazy.

BTW, our federal taxes fund the lobby group that produced the press release above. The National Council of Welfare was created in 1969 when Trudeau was in his "create advocacy groups" phase. Since then, nobody has had the good sense or courage to get rid of this boondoggle. I hate to think how much it cost to generate that report.

[jbg]

That is what is being reported today in the news. It says that Alberta and New Brunswick pay less to the poor, poor meaning those on welfare and need help. I have no problem for a person being on welfare as long its a hand UP and not hand OUT! For those that NEED education, I think the provinces should make it easy for these people to get what they need to support themselves, as far as education is concerned. Lets face it. ALL people pay too much taxes....

Your post was fine until the point that you decided, for no reason, to bring Harper into it.

[jdobbin]

Your post was fine until the point that you decided, for no reason, to bring Harper into it.

Harper did increase the income tax on the lowest rate by a half percentage. Most experts have said this hurt the poor the most.

[Riverwind]

Harper did increase the income tax on the lowest rate by a half percentage. Most experts have said this hurt the poor the most.

He also decreased the GST and did not reduce the GST tax credit. Furthermore, he introduced a working tax credit and a deduction for public transit that will help the working poor the most.

[jdobbin]

He also decreased the GST and did not reduce the GST tax credit. Furthermore, he introduced a working tax credit and a deduction for public transit that will help the working poor the most.

Many places didn't pass on the savings from the GST cut. The city of Toronto and Calgary were among cities that didn't reduce prices. Many other businesses kept their prices the same. We won't know for sure how many have done this until the next six month period.

Tax credits are never as good a tux cuts according to almost all experts. There was a lot of criticism about how the benefits of the tax credits would not help the poor.

I think I would prefer to have an income tax cut over a tax credit any day. I'd prefer to have an income tax cut to a sales tax cut any day. Wouldn't you?

[Riverwind]

I think I would prefer to have an income tax cut over a tax credit any day. I'd prefer to have an income tax cut to a sales tax cut any day. Wouldn't you?

Most definitely, however, you can't point to the .5% tax increase/cancelled tax reduction without considering the effect of the other measures. The 0.5% for someone making 32K/year is about $120 but that person now qualifies for a $250 employment tax credit. The net result is that person is $130 ahead even without the GST reduction.

[jdobbin]

Most definitely, however, you can't point to the .5% tax increase/cancelled tax reduction without considering the effect of the other measures. The 0.5% for someone making 32K/year is about $120 but that person now qualifies for a $250 employment tax credit. The net result is that person is $130 ahead even without the GST reduction.

There was a lot of take-away going in the fine print of the budget as well. The child tax credit for one.

Overall, most analysts have said that the tax cuts in the budget were exaggerated.

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2006/n24my06b.htm

[Argus]

Your post was fine until the point that you decided, for no reason, to bring Harper into it.

Harper did increase the income tax on the lowest rate by a half percentage. Most experts have said this hurt the poor the most.

I don't see how that is relevent given those on welfare are almost certainly below the Low Income Cuttoff amount and pay zero taxes anyway.

[BubberMiley]

I don't see how that is relevent given those on welfare are almost certainly below the Low Income Cuttoff amount and pay zero taxes anyway.

And that's about $7K a year isn't it?

[jdobbin]

I don't see how that is relevent given those on welfare are almost certainly below the Low Income Cuttoff amount and pay zero taxes anyway.

They certainly paid less taxes on their income with the last Liberal government than they will with the Conservative budget.

[August1991]

They certainly paid less taxes on their income with the last Liberal government than they will with the Conservative budget.

People on welfare don't pay income tax, but they do pay GST.

In any case, the report cited above says nothing about the condition of poor people in Canada, about whether there are more of them than before, or if they're poorer than before.

The report simply says that, correcting for inflation, monthly welfare payments for single people without children are lower now than they were about 20 years ago. In Ontario, welfare payments to all types of families are lower now than they were in 1992.

That's basically it.

"There's nothing to see here. Circulez."

[geoffrey]

Harper did increase the income tax on the lowest rate by a half percentage. Most experts have said this hurt the poor the most.

He also decreased the GST and did not reduce the GST tax credit. Furthermore, he introduced a working tax credit and a deduction for public transit that will help the working poor the most.

That's right, poor people are better off without GST. Consumption taxes are as regressive as it gets. Public transit tax credits are huge too.

The amount of tax credits you can get in Canada is just ridiculous. If you are actually 'unable' to work, you don't pay taxes. If your lazy and mooch welfare, then you do because you don't qualify for the hundreds of tax relief programs for every possible disability and living situation.

And that's about $7K a year isn't it?

Around $9k.

--

Anyways, ol' Ralphie answered for Albertans on the topic quite clearly, and I stand behind his comments.

"If there are children suffering, vulnerable people, we will look after them," Klein said. "We've always said we would look after the vulnerable in society, but we wouldn't accommodate those who are employable and simply want welfare for the sake of welfare."

Klein speaks of every able bodied unemployed person in Alberta. They are committing a crime against society by being unemployed, and we have no obligation to them whatsoever.

Those that are disabled and kids, lets help them. If you can work, find a damned job. Stores and businesses are shutting their doors for a lack of people, I'd like to see unemployed people forced into these jobs or serve time as an alternative.

[jdobbin]

That's right, poor people are better off without GST. Consumption taxes are as regressive as it gets. Public transit tax credits are huge too.

The amount of tax credits you can get in Canada is just ridiculous.

The amount of tax credits should have been reduced rather than increased. It just make the tax code more complicated.

And the GST should have stayed the same. The Tories would have done better to decrease the income tax but another half percent.

Almost every economist out there says the best way to help the poor is to reduce income tax.

[geoffrey]

The amount of tax credits should have been reduced rather than increased. It just make the tax code more complicated.

Agreed, flat tax is ideal if we didn't live in a tax/welfare oppressed society.

And the GST should have stayed the same. The Tories would have done better to decrease the income tax but another half percent.

When poor and disabled people don't pay it right? Some tax cut for them.

Almost every economist out there says the best way to help the poor is to reduce income tax.

Please find me two or more that say this, real economists either with a bank or a university. A TorStar reporter doesn't count.

Most economists will agree that consumption taxes are the most regressive because everyone both pays them, and pays a similiar amount of them. The GST cut took a big bite out of inflation which is crushing some areas of the country right now too.

[geoffrey]

From: http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/s...88d&k=89829

The government says Alberta's welfare caseload is 25,000, with about 11,000 unable to work.

There you go, in the most labour crunched time in Alberta and Canada's history, most people on welfare are lazy.

[Hydraboss]

From: http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/s...88d&k=89829

The government says Alberta's welfare caseload is 25,000, with about 11,000 unable to work.

There you go, in the most labour crunched time in Alberta and Canada's history, most people on welfare are lazy.

By your numbers, there are 14,000 people who should not be able to collect welfare because they are f**king lazy (well said, Geoffrey). 14,000 X $5000/yr = too much in handouts in this province. When able bodied people don't work, able bodied people don't get any money.

[gc1765]

He also decreased the GST and did not reduce the GST tax credit. Furthermore, he introduced a working tax credit and a deduction for public transit that will help the working poor the most.

That's right, poor people are better off without GST. Consumption taxes are as regressive as it gets. Public transit tax credits are huge too.

The public transit tax credit is a great idea....but consumption taxes are not regressive! Speaking as someone on a relatively low income, I can say that virtually all of my money goes to tuition, rent, food and of course income taxes. I spend very little on GST taxable items, and therefore pay very little GST. Higher income people are able to purchase many more things which charge GST. If the government wants to be more progressive, I suggest making more items GST-exempt (for example phone line, certain clothing) rather than cutting it alltogether. Or they could simply increase the GST rebate for low income people, but simply cutting the GST mostly benefits the rich.

[jdobbin]

Agreed, flat tax is ideal if we didn't live in a tax/welfare oppressed society.

When poor and disabled people don't pay it right? Some tax cut for them.

Please find me two or more that say this, real economists either with a bank or a university. A TorStar reporter doesn't count.

Most economists will agree that consumption taxes are the most regressive because everyone both pays them, and pays a similiar amount of them. The GST cut took a big bite out of inflation which is crushing some areas of the country right now too.

I'm talking about the working poor when it comes to tax. The tax breaks on income should come early for them. I don't believe in the flat tax. It won't work in our present system.

Read what real economists says about the GST cut.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...me=&no_ads=

[geoffrey]

Or just get rid of the GST completely, raise the minimum income limit to $15,000 and flat tax at 22 or 23 percent? I'd have to do some math, but that'd be fairly revenue neutral I think and would be both fair to poor people (who likely wouldn't pay tax) and not be overly punitive on those that are financially successful.

[jdobbin]

Or just get rid of the GST completely, raise the minimum income limit to $15,000 and flat tax at 22 or 23 percent? I'd have to do some math, but that'd be fairly revenue neutral I think and would be both fair to poor people (who likely wouldn't pay tax) and not be overly punitive on those that are financially successful.

Most nations are now opting for the sales tax. I know Alberta hates it but it is how most industrialized nations fund their government.

[August1991]

The amount of tax credits should have been reduced rather than increased. It just make the tax code more complicated.

And the GST should have stayed the same. The Tories would have done better to decrease the income tax but another half percent.

Dobbin, I have to agree with you.

In many ways, the GST is a better tax than income tax. (Better in the sense that it is fairer to poor people and generates the most revenue at least collection/accountant cost to society.)

Harper's decision to cut the GST had a political - not economic - rationale. Canadian federal politics are at such a cynical point that Canadians need to see federal politicians do what they say. The GST is highly visible and Harper cut it. His reputation is now made for the history textbooks.

Moreover, the US does not have a federal VAT/GST. It is hard to impose a tax in English Canada that does not exist in the US.

[bTW, Mulroney had tremendous political courage to create the GST and so I have always found ironic accusations that Mulroney was an American clone. If any Tory was an American wannabe for taxes, it was Clark. He proposed a nonsensical US-style mortgage payment tax credit. Or maybe Clark was not only American wannabe, but also tax clueless. His government fell on a gasoline excise tax - at the time, a Jimmy Carter type of tax.]

-----

I would love to see higher, harmonized GST/PST, bonified GST refunds, extension of GST to food/rent, elimination of GST from used cars and substantial increases in income tax exemptions.

Governments should only have to deal with 10% of the population to collect general taxes. Revenue Canada should aim to deal with as few people as possible.

[gc1765]

Or just get rid of the GST completely, raise the minimum income limit to $15,000 and flat tax at 22 or 23 percent? I'd have to do some math, but that'd be fairly revenue neutral I think and would be both fair to poor people (who likely wouldn't pay tax) and not be overly punitive on those that are financially successful.

Let's see...someone making $20, 000 on the Liberal's tax plan pays $10,000 x 15% = $1,500 plus GST $1,540 not including any tax credits....under your system it would be $5,000 x 22.5% = $1,125....yep I like it. I think that system would mostly benefit the poor (20k and under) and the very rich, while the middle class would pay relatively more.

The only problem is I think that system would not generate as much income as the current system. In other words, without cutting services or running a deficit, the tax rate would probably have to be higher than 23 percent.

[jdobbin]

I would love to see higher, harmonized GST/PST, bonified GST refunds, extension of GST to food/rent, elimination of GST from used cars and substantial increases in income tax exemptions.

Governments should only have to deal with 10% of the population to collect general taxes. Revenue Canada should aim to deal with as few people as possible.

An extremely hard task to get the provinces on board, especially Alberta and Quebec.

I was leary of the GST when it came, probably because the Conservatives had raised the tax nearly two dozen times when fighting the deficit and yet there didn't seem to be a dent made in it.

What I would like to see is the GST within the price of goods even if it provinces don't want to do that with the PST.