Harper & Israeli Invasion of Lebanon

[BubberMiley]

Check out the photos of dead children and the Israel air attacks on fleeing Arabs and tourists I posted to the International thread ......

That "measured response" defence is going to come back to haunt Harper.

[Kindred]

Like I said he is going to outdo even Clark and Mulroney, but by election time it will be too late for the Lebanese children -- and what will be left of Canada's reputation and integrity and standing in the world?

Mark my words we are going to see terrorist activity and see it soon because of Harper (Bush Toady)

[Canuck E Stan]

Like I said he is going to outdo even Clark and Mulroney, but by election time it will be too late for the Lebanese children -- and what will be left of Canada's reputation and integrity and standing in the world?

Mark my words we are going to see terrorist activity and see it soon because of Harper (Bush Toady)

We've already seen the terrorist activity for some time,where have you been?

It was around when Martin was leader.

It is also too late for the Arab children who were blown up in Israel by the Hezbollah.

Israel population is 20% Arab.

Why does Hezbollah kill their own?

I'll answer that,because they have no regard for human life.

They created all this by coming into Israel and kidnapping two Israeli soldiers.

Canada's reputation and integrity? My friend you think too much of Canada's importance in the world.

We're right up there with those important nations who make a difference to world problems like Norway,Japan,Iceland,And Spain.

We don't even rate much in Hockey anymore.

You're dreaming importance in colour while your set is in black and white.

[Argus]

If you can't control what happens within your borders then you can't pretend to sovereignty over that area.

And so someone else will come in and deal with it

So if Canada decides too many guns are crossing the border from the U.S., we have the moral right to bomb neighbourhoods where we suspect gun-runners might be living?

I think Canada would first have to actually try to do something to police its border crossings, and arrest gun sellers and users before it could start screaming at the Americans for not controlling their smugglers.

[Argus]

Check out the photos of dead children and the Israel air attacks on fleeing Arabs and tourists I posted to the International thread ......

Why? I can get more attractive pictures on any porn site.

[Argus]

Like I said he is going to outdo even Clark and Mulroney, but by election time it will be too late for the Lebanese children -- and what will be left of Canada's reputation and integrity and standing in the world?

Canada doesn't HAVE a reputation as anything but an international wuss. As for "integrety", the key to that is honesty, and we seem to be displaying a lot more of it now than we used to.

Not that you appear to know what that word means anyway.

[Kindred]

This time Argus you have gone far beyond any semblance of human decency, and I have reported you for your outrageous comment about the photos of the dead children

Why? I can get more attractive pictures on any porn site

So far I have bit my tongue and kept from insulting you as you so willfully insult everyone else and if I get banned I dont care, I am far far too angry to care at this point ..

On every thread, on every post you have shown what a deeply disturbed, uneducated, ignorant person you really are. People such as yourself are a disgrace to Canada. Not only are you too freaking ignorant to post one intelligent comment anywhere on this entire forum you delight in your ignorance and you seem to think your assanine, ignorant, uneducated comments are witty -

I am willing to bet you have a grade seven education, if that. You Argus are one of the most pathetic losers I have ever encountered, in person, or on the internet. Its too damn bad your mother didnt have the foresight to abort you and spare other people from your mind boggling ignorance.

If I were you I would be embarassed even being on this forum knowing that everyone with one iota of common sense, education or experience is laughing themselves sick at you, at how ignorant you really are, and how far you will go to prove your ignorance ...........

You are lower than pond scum and I have sympathy for your family, your friends, and all your coworkers, not to mention your neighbours and anyone who has to suffer your regrettable presence in this world.

[jbg]

I'd ask what you two have against attacking terrorist groups...

What do you have against small children that you would encourage them being blown up?

When they themselves use small children as walking bombs?

[Argus]

This time Argus you have gone far beyond any semblance of human decency, and I have reported you for your outrageous comment about the photos of the dead children

It was only outrageous to you because you can't understand the level of sophistication my posts contain.

I didn't look at your pictures. Why would I? Why would anyone? Are you trying to let us know that in war people die, including children? Perhaps those who willingly associate with your are too stupid to figure such things out but most of us understand it quite clearly. Your posting pictures of bodies is merely your desperate attempt to offer up yet another emotional argument because you are incapable of offering up any logical or even coherent opposition to the points and facts others make. Its a dreary tactic reminiscent of the anti-abortion nuts posting pictures of dead fetuses. It is worthy of contempt - which is why it was awarded contempt.

People such as yourself are a disgrace to Canada. Not only are you too freaking ignorant to post one intelligent comment anywhere on this entire forum you delight in your ignorance and you seem to think your assanine, ignorant, uneducated comments are witty -

Well, my mom thinks I'm hilarious!

I am willing to bet you have a grade seven education, if that.

Well, we all have grade seven educations, come to that. It's just that some of us have a little more besides. And most of us have at least managed to mature our world view somewhat past where we were when we were thirteen.

And then there's you.

You are lower than pond scum and I have sympathy for your family, your friends, and all your coworkers, not to mention your neighbours and anyone who has to suffer your regrettable presence in this world.

And I'm such a fun guy in person.

[jdobbin]

There has been talk all morning on American talk shows about a NATO force being placed in southern Lebanon. CNN asked U.N. John Bolton if the story was true and whether the force would be comprised mainly of European and Canadian troops? He hedged and said that what everyone wanted was for Lebanese troops to take position there but that they lack the capabilities.

Anybody getting a queasy feeling that there might be a phone call to Harper to see if the can shake out some people for Lebanon in the near future?

Syria has also said they will fight Israel if they approach the Syrian border.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well Argus you seem to have hit a nerve. I must agree that the posting of pictures depicting death and destruction will yield an emotional respone. That is the entire basis of the current situation in the middle east isn't it, it is an emotional charged atmosphere. Logic does not enter into the equation at all. Logic would simply dictate that possesion is 9/10 of the law, and in that case the so-called occupied territories should be declared a spoil of war. As to the question of a Palestinian homeland, Gaza has been GIVEN to them by Israel.

[BubberMiley]

When they themselves use small children as walking bombs?

How many Lebanese suicide bombers under the age of 10 do you know of?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I know of none myself. But what is your point? That age matters? Is the life of one human more or less valuable than another? How many children have terrorists killed over the years? The questions for this line of reasoning are as endless as the conflict itself.

Terrorists are cowards and criminals. Those that hide terrorists are aiding and abetting the criminal activities of terrorists. The pursuit of criminals is the responsibility of any civilized nation in the world. Given that Lebanon has provided cover and protection for these criminals in their midst, they themselves have acted in a criminal manner as well. Therefore it is the government of Lebanon who is at fault for this situation. The government of Lebanon is fully capable of reversing the current situation by prosecuting the terrorists for war crimes and endangering the rest of the Lebanese population through their criminal activites. They need to release the two soldiers being held and station Lebanese troops along the border and take responsibility for their citizens.

I will suggest that if their government does not accept responsibility for these citizens that it forfeits the territorial rights of those citizens and an end of hostilities will result in the expansion of the Israeli borders by right of possession and security requirements. I would argue that this political option be utilized as a viable alternative dispute mechanism in international law, with respect to the pursuit of sloving the problem of terrorism.

[Kindred]

How many children have terrorists killed over the years? The questions for this line of reasoning are as endless as the conflict itself.

Does that make it okay? Has our society become so desensitized by violence that no one cares when children are being killed and wounded and ripped apart by bombs that we just shrug, or make a joke about it? What a snapshot of good mental health. And people around the world think Canadians are "nice" people, yah right .........

No one is forcing you to look at the photos, but if you want a dose of reality instead of "intellectual debate" feel free to access the information some people are dying to send out to the world ...... so that you dont just get reports from censored media sources .......

These children are victims of a bloodbath, this is not how you fight a guerilla force, most of these Lebanese people are NOT fighting, most of them do not support Hezbulloh, their Government doesnt support them, and despite the attack on their country their Army has not moved against Israel. Their Government has only asked for a cease fire and peace and appealed to the UN and Canada and the US and British ......... who have all turned their backs on them.

Israel is ignoring the GOVERNMENT of Lebanon. You do not attack a guerilla force from the air and flatten cities. If you have a rat problem do you blow up the buildings to get rid of them? Of course not, they just move on... the Hezblloh is mobile ........ as far as I know they dont have an Air Force so what we the point in blowing up the Beruit airport first? And then the bridges? It was to trap the Lebanese and handicap the Lebanese Air Force and Groud Troops - NOT the Hazbulloh .... it was to hunt "fish in a barrel" ........

And they have succeeded in realizing their agenda.

I am willing to be Harper will say "gee sorry our troops are all covering the US asses in Afghanistan and we dont have that many body bags .........." Unless of course Bush gives him the nod .........

Given our pathetic Military Harper is making a huge mistake toadying up to Bush. The average American doesnt realize how small our Military is, our ancient our equipment is and how ineffective the Canadian Forces really are when it comes to Armed conflict .........

On the other hand war is big business and IMO Harper wants to cash in on the billions - however despite offering a $40,000.00 signing bonus, Canadians are NOT lining up to enlist ...........

I have friends who are Jews, and friends who are Arab, one of my friends was in the Israel Air Force, but I am sickened by this - it cannot be justified - and I repeat, this is not how you fight a guerilla force inside a country filled with millions of innocent people ........

[August1991]

Does that make it okay? Has our society become so desensitized by violence that no one cares when children are being killed and wounded and ripped apart by bombs that we just shrug, or make a joke about it? What a snapshot of good mental health. And people around the world think Canadians are "nice" people, yah right .........

Kindred, can you please stop engaging in hyperbole? Please put your opinions in perspective.

In the 10 days since the start of these hostilities on 13 July, Lebanese authorities state that 380 have been killed. (About 60 people die of natural causes in Lebanon every day.)

Last year, in the US, about 30,000 people were killed in car accidents. Yesterday alone, about 60 Iraqis were killed in car bombs.

Your outrageous claims that Israel is "flattening" Lebanon are simply false. The Arab League does not support Hizballah and the G-8 issued a communique telling Hizballah to release the Israeli prisoners.

Each death of a young person is a tragedy and death through the violence of war is among the most tragic. But please keep this in perspective. Israel and Lebanon attract the attention of the world's media.

In southern Thailand, there is an Islamist insurgency that has left over 1000 dead in the past two years. These deaths attract little attention. Now, which is more tragic?

[August1991]

When they themselves use small children as walking bombs?

How many Lebanese suicide bombers under the age of 10 do you know of?

Would you accept one who had the mind of a 4 year-old? Admittedly he was Iraqi, not Lebanese:

Amar was 19, but he had the mind of a four-year-old. This handicap didn't stop the insurgency's hard men as they strapped explosives to his chest and guided him to a voting centre in suburban Al-Askan.

The Australian Age

14, not 10. And Palestinian, not Lebanese:

Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution."

BBC

[jdobbin]

In the 10 days since the start of these hostilities on 13 July, Lebanese authorities state that 380 have been killed. (About 60 people die of natural causes in Lebanon every day.)

Still, the longer this goes on and the bigger the displacement, the probability increases that the deaths will rise sharply. Israel must realize this as they have eased the naval blockade somewhat.

Bush warned Israel not to topple the government of Lebanon but it might be too late for that. Who knows.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13988981/site/newsweek/

There could be a lot of sectarian violence again.

Another U.N. official speaks on what is happening.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200.../un-beirut.html

I think this is also why Israel is talking about an international force put in southern Lebanon. They know what happened the last time they stayed for a while.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13929959/

[BubberMiley]

Admittedly he was Iraqi, not Lebanese...

And Palestinian, not Lebanese

When you characterize a nation for sending their children off to be terrorists, you should at least characteriize the right nation.

[GostHacked]

August

Last year, in the US, about 30,000 people were killed in car accidents. Yesterday alone, about 60 Iraqis were killed in car bombs.

If we take an average of 50 people a day for an entire year we get about 20,000 people being killed in Iraq each year by car bombs. Also the population sizes are way different and not to mention that more vehicles are in the US than in Iraq. Does not seem like a fair comparison.

In southern Thailand, there is an Islamist insurgency that has left over 1000 dead in the past two years. These deaths attract little attention. Now, which is more tragic?

It is a shame that the MSM does not present this to us. We have to go to alternate news sources to get real information.

Also for this conflict I do not think the UN will do much in the way of brokering peace in the area. More or less they will be there just to take a tally on who gets killed by what and from where. Being more referees in a big game than peackeepers.

As part of 'doing a favour' for Lebanon and crushing Hezbollah, Israel should help repair the infrastructure they have devestated. Aid money/people to help rebuild bridges, water treatment plants, power plants, the airport, other roads leading to Lebanon from Syria. Not to mention that new 20 mile buffer zone that Isreal will put in place in Southern Lebanon. Scorched earth? Seems like it.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Look Kindred everybody agrees that what is happening is horrific. The problem is that the terrorists are hidding amongst innocent people to cover their pathetic tails. You keep stating that this is not how to fight these terrorists, but you never state how to fight them. If you have the answer to that question then pony up with it and save some lives.

After reading the interview with the boss in Lebanon I no longer have any question as to whether or not the government their has any connection with Hezbollah. They are peas in a pod, the man actually admires the efforts of these terrorists and allows them to operate as they see fit. So the government is at least guilty of being dumb enough to associate with terrorists. Worse yet they support these so called humans in their efforts at the political level if nothing else. The fools have taunted and terrorised Israel for the last time, and the Israelis will have no more of it. Had the government complied with UN 1559 this situation would not have occured. Had the government distanced themselves with Hezbollah tyhis would not have happened. But sadly these things have happened and the government of Lebanon must accept responsibility for its actions.

While I would not offer support to either side in this conflict I do think that we can play a role in the aftermath in a humanitarian capacity to either side or even both if necissary. This is not our business, it is theirs. We all have to live with our decisions, unfortunately some will die for theirs but not by our hand.

Israel is acting in a manner that defends the interests of their citizens, I can only hope that other nations do the same.

[BubberMiley]

Israel is acting in a manner that defends the interests of their citizens, I can only hope that other nations do the same.

I guess you're happy so long as they aren't bombing your children.

[cybercoma]

Israel is acting in a manner that defends the interests of their citizens, I can only hope that other nations do the same.

I guess you're happy so long as they aren't bombing your children.

I guess that's like saying, you're happy so long as they are only bombing jews.

[BubberMiley]

Perhaps, or so long as it doesn't affect me personally, let them do what they want. Just don't involve me, Mr. Harper, by taking sides.

[Black Dog]

jbg:

It's called "war". And the people can expel the Hezbollah guerrillas to enable themselves to have a peaceful life. Instead, they chose to vote them into the Lebanese Parliament. Having reaped the wind, they're sewing the whirlwind.

Just that easy, eh?

cybercome:

I'd ask what you two have against attacking terrorist groups, but Black Dog points it out. You guys don't see people who target busses, pizza shops, and religious sites to murder innocent civilians as murderers and terrorists. These people are "freedom fighters" waging war against the horribly oppressive Zionist machine. Those evil jews are horrible dictators, despite the reality that they have arabs and palestinians in their government. Despite the fact that their soldiers were captured and these attacks on terrorist installations is a response to that. So, instead of supporting a nation that is defending itself against a known group of murderers who indiscriminately target women, children and anyone else within the blast range of their suicide bombers and rocket launchers you call these killers guerilla warriors fighting for peace. No offense, but it sorta takes the credibility out of anything you say.

What teh fuck are you talking abot? Where in the post you cite, or in any of my posts, do you see any reference to "freedom fighters" or "horrible jews"?

This is not a war between nations. It is a nation defending itself against a group of fanatics who have for decades practiced murdering and torturing innocent civilians to try and get their way. It almost makes me lose my lunch when I see people defending these @$$holes.

Again, unless you can show where I was defending Hizbulah or Hamas, I'll have to kindly ask you to STFU.

Rue:

Blckdog your lack of awareness of the Middle East never ceases to amaze me. You made a comment that Hamas set up shop in Gaza because that is where they live. See when you make comments like that I am not sure if you are being deliberately provocative or are just completely ignorant of what you are talking about. Hamas, Hezbollah and the countless terrorist cells could set up shop away from civilians. I wish you would travel to the Gaza and West Bank and Israel and Lebanon before you make such comments. The choice to place terrorists in apartments WITH civilians, in hospitals, in schools, is deliberate and completely and absolutely avoidable.

Do you know anything about war and fourth genaration war in particular? How unbelievably stupid would it be for a guerilla organization facing an opponnent of vastly superior fighting quality to set up shop in an easily identifiable and easily targeted area? I will also reiterate that Hamas and Hizbullah are integrated into civilian life in these regions.

Do you see Israel's military setting itself up in civilian zones and in apartments and hospitals and hiding behind civilians? Well do you?

Uh..no. But then, they are a large, sophisticated multi-billion dollar fighting force. They don't need to.

I mean to try and argue that the tactic of using civilians as a shield is understndable nd justifiable because they live there is absolutely the most pathetic thing you have stated to date on this topic and yes you should be embarassed to say it. For that matter why don't you examine the make up of Hamas and Hezbollah. Would it dawn on you that Hamas and Hezbollah are made up of foreigners not residents of the Gaza, West Bank or Southern Lebanon?

Why oh why can't Israeli's apologists make an argument without putting words in somebody's mouth? I did not make any moral judgement one way or another on the tactic of blending into civilian populations, but simply stated that such tactics are charateristic of guerrilla warfare everywhere its practiced.

Man talk about a double standard. I can just imagine you black-dog if Israeli soldiers took their uniforms off, engaged in the same tactics and hid behind civilians...would you be defending Israeli civilian deaths...of course not because in your mind Israel is the oppressor and everyone else in the Middle East is a victim.

Uh...Israel does use soldiers clad in civilian clothes.

Man if I could take you to Haifa for just one day and have you sit through a missile attack man would your tune change.

Man if I could take you to Ramallah and have you sit through a Israeli tank attack man would your tuine change.

See how ridiculous it is to make such appeals?

[watching&waiting]

It amazes me that people tend to let their hearts lead when shown the ravages of war, and yes I do mean war. The capturing of soldiers by the lebanese groups and the shelling of villages near the Israel and Lebanon borders, is a valid cause for war. In the past many smaller actions were at it took for countries to go at each other.

Now yes, Israel has a way more powerful army and could easily take over the whole country of Lebanon is short order. I tend to think that this was in part what Harper ment by measured response to the Lebanese actions of late. To many, this was way over the top. Some where in the middle lies the truth.

Israel can not just stand by and turn the other cheek all the time. It is like a mosquito that will not quit bothering the person, and sooner or later it is going to get a swat that kills it. Even if Syria and others came to the lebanese aid, it would still be a one sided battle. So why are people so shocked by what has happened? It was seen coming sooner or later by many. When the lebanese people people voted a terroist party into power with an over whelming majority, who thought that this would bring peace?

I am not pro-Israel. I do think that they have made their point and should now just sit and wait to see what and how the Lebanese government responds. If they are willing to return the captured soldiers and cease their cross border activities, then I think Israel should then withdraw. But if they can not give an immediate responce to a cease fire and agree. Then isreal should just continue and remove the government by force and declare Lebanon to be a captured country and part of their own domaine. It would be governed by Israeli rules. This should be done while trying to limit the deaths of the innocent, but as in any war that is never a garantee.

I think Canada should support the Israel intially and offer to be part of a group of countries that would rein in Israel if they go too far. But to support the Lebanese position in this, would be wrong and I do not think that many people or countries can see Lebanon as the innocent party in this. I also have many many thoughts about just how many dual Canadian citizens were in Lebanon when this started and why they would go there at a time when it was seen as not a smart think to go for a vacation. Also how many of these 50,000 were out of Canada for more then 6 months etc. But that is for another thread.