Harper & Israeli Invasion of Lebanon

[jbg]

A good article by Lou Dobbs from CNN about America's foreign policy in the middle east. I think he makes some excellent points.

This may sound churlish, and I don't want to appear impolite but what is an article by Lou Dobbs (copied in its entirety) doing in a thread about Harper and the Middle East in the Federal Politics category? If the article's not enough, jbg then goes and copies the whole article again to respond.

The article isn't coherent or very well written either. It's just loud.

No, I copied snippets, as needed, for response purposes.

[Black Dog]

I am sick and tired of people who think this is a one sided conflict and that it is acceptable for Hezbollah to attack and kill Israelis but somehow Israel is a villain if Israel defends itself.

Who are these people? They aren't on this board.

Yes innocent civilians are dying in Lebanon but that is specifically because Hezbollah chose to set up shop hiding behind civilians and because the world has sat silently by while Hezbollah, Hamas and countless other terrorist cells set up shop in hospitals, crowded refugee camps, and population centres.

Um...I don't know about Hizbullah, but Hamas has "set up shop" in refugee camps and population centres because that's where they live. I'm sure they'd prefer to have heavily defended bases of their own with the weaponry to go toe-to-toe with the IDF, but this is asymetrical war and Hamas is just doing what guerilla groups have always done. It's not cowardice, it's intelligence.

This is not a matter of being a little bit pregnant. There is no such thing as fighting back but with restraint. That is pure and absolute b.s. and a concept that people hold to when they live in safe environments and can't understand what it is like to be threatened by death at a moment's notice.

Did you crib that from Hamas' web site?

You want to talk pathetic, take a look at Jack Layton suggesting Canada should send peace-keeping troops to Lebanon.

Tell me would any Canadians ask for Israeli soldiers to be sent to Canada as peacekeepers and place them in Mississauga to protect against future terrorism?

WTF? There's no war in Ontario. There is one in Lebanon.

[Machinations]

Reported to moderator.

Crybaby. See if you see my cross-check coming. The ref wont see, trust me.

On the subject of a peacekeeping deployment - this is the last thing Israel wants, and you will see the US bend over backwards to prevent it from happening. Israel is afraid a peacekeeping operation will 'impunge its sovereignty' - in other words, prevent it from bombing Beirut to score domestic political points. Also, a prolonged operation in the area might draw increased media coverage and a change in Western, and critically, American attitudes - if regular TV images of Israeli 'collateral damage' are widely aired. Further, it is seen as opening the door to a UN deployment in Gaza and the West Bank which, depite being the obvious and debatably correct solution, is political anethema in Israel.

[jbg]

On the subject of a peacekeeping deployment - this is the last thing Israel wants, and you will see the US bend over backwards to prevent it from happening. Israel is afraid a peacekeeping operation will 'impunge its sovereignty' - in other words, prevent it from bombing Beirut to score domestic political points. Also, a prolonged operation in the area might draw increased media coverage and a change in Western, and critically, American attitudes - if regular TV images of Israeli 'collateral damage' are widely aired. Further, it is seen as opening the door to a UN deployment in Gaza and the West Bank which, depite being the obvious and debatably correct solution, is political anethema in Israel.

Yes. Israel does not want to shoot at UN peacekeepers in an effort to get at Hezbollah fighters. The UN "peacekeepers" will ignore Hezbollah, in effect serving as their human shields.

[Argus]

Reported to moderator.

Crybaby. See if you see my cross-check coming. The ref wont see, trust me.

Are you suggesting you're a dirty, cheating punk who hasn't got any skill and has to be a goon instead?

Israel is afraid a peacekeeping operation will 'impunge its sovereignty' - in other words, prevent it from bombing Beirut to score domestic political points

What Israel is actually afraid of, for you grownups who aren't fixated on anti-American, anti-Israeli leftist pap, is that the UN will put in another ineffective UNIFIL type observation group which will do nothing whatever to stop terrorists from attacking Israel, but will interfer with Israel's ability to defend itself.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

As long as Harper limits this nations involvment to diplomacy and humanitarian assistance I will support his position. Canada has no place and no business in the politics of the middle east. While our Americans friends are very deeply involved that simply does not apply to us.

[MightyAC]

As long as Harper limits this nations involvment to diplomacy and humanitarian assistance I will support his position. Canada has no place and no business in the politics of the middle east. While our Americans friends are very deeply involved that simply does not apply to us.

When a leader completely backs one side right out of the gate doesn't that sort of ruin the diplomacy angle and get us involved?

[Shuriken]

As long as Harper limits this nations involvment to diplomacy and humanitarian assistance I will support his position. Canada has no place and no business in the politics of the middle east. While our Americans friends are very deeply involved that simply does not apply to us.

When a leader completely backs one side right out of the gate doesn't that sort of ruin the diplomacy angle and get us involved?

Uh no. Taking sides is part of diplomacy. This recent "neutral" crap isn't diplomacy.

[BubberMiley]

Calling an atrocity like this a "measured response" is not diplomacy, not to people who know what's really going down.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14109.htm

[jbg]

Calling an atrocity like this a "measured response" is not diplomacy, not to people who know what's really going down.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14109.htm

It's called "war". And the people can expel the Hezbollah guerrillas to enable themselves to have a peaceful life. Instead, they chose to vote them into the Lebanese Parliament. Having reaped the wind, they're sewing the whirlwind.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The Lebanese are free to elect their own government. They choose to elect some representatives that are decidedly anti-Israeli. They choose not to control military elements operating within their political territory that are not subject to the will of their politicians. They have created the conditions that brought them to this point in time.

I have no sympathy for a government that would choose to act in this manner. While I may not much care for that government I do feel bad for some of the citizens of that nation. The sad truth is that their own citizens have brought these actions upon themselves.

[jbg]

I have no sympathy for a government that would choose to act in this manner. While I may not much care for that government I do feel bad for some of the citizens of that nation. The sad truth is that their own citizens have brought these actions upon themselves.

Especially when the Hezbollah votes came from the area under attack.

[pinetree]

The Lebanese are free to elect their own government. They choose to elect some representatives that are decidedly anti-Israeli. They choose not to control military elements operating within their political territory that are not subject to the will of their politicians. They have created the conditions that brought them to this point in time.

I have no sympathy for a government that would choose to act in this manner. While I may not much care for that government I do feel bad for some of the citizens of that nation. The sad truth is that their own citizens have brought these actions upon themselves.

Agreed! The thread title "Invasion of Lebanon" ignores the intended neutrality of the UN-policed zone being invaded. The UN failed. Israel is forced to do the job to save its own skin. The only problem Canadians have is getting used to a Prime Minister who 'calls it as it is'.

[cybercoma]

God help Canadians with this moron at the head of out country making us look like assholes all over the world with his stupid comment that Israel is justified when most of the world disagrees, but then Harper has his head so far up Bush's ass he cant see whats going on anyhow .....

I am sick and tired of people who think this is a one sided conflict and that it is acceptable for Hezbollah to attack and kill Israelis but somehow Israel is a villain if Israel defends itself.

Who are these people? They aren't on this board.

Yes innocent civilians are dying in Lebanon but that is specifically because Hezbollah chose to set up shop hiding behind civilians and because the world has sat silently by while Hezbollah, Hamas and countless other terrorist cells set up shop in hospitals, crowded refugee camps, and population centres.

Um...I don't know about Hizbullah, but Hamas has "set up shop" in refugee camps and population centres because that's where they live. I'm sure they'd prefer to have heavily defended bases of their own with the weaponry to go toe-to-toe with the IDF, but this is asymetrical war and Hamas is just doing what guerilla groups have always done. It's not cowardice, it's intelligence.

This is not a matter of being a little bit pregnant. There is no such thing as fighting back but with restraint. That is pure and absolute b.s. and a concept that people hold to when they live in safe environments and can't understand what it is like to be threatened by death at a moment's notice.

Did you crib that from Hamas' web site?

You want to talk pathetic, take a look at Jack Layton suggesting Canada should send peace-keeping troops to Lebanon.

Tell me would any Canadians ask for Israeli soldiers to be sent to Canada as peacekeepers and place them in Mississauga to protect against future terrorism?

WTF? There's no war in Ontario. There is one in Lebanon.

I'd ask what you two have against attacking terrorist groups, but Black Dog points it out. You guys don't see people who target busses, pizza shops, and religious sites to murder innocent civilians as murderers and terrorists. These people are "freedom fighters" waging war against the horribly oppressive Zionist machine. Those evil jews are horrible dictators, despite the reality that they have arabs and palestinians in their government. Despite the fact that their soldiers were captured and these attacks on terrorist installations is a response to that. So, instead of supporting a nation that is defending itself against a known group of murderers who indiscriminately target women, children and anyone else within the blast range of their suicide bombers and rocket launchers you call these killers guerilla warriors fighting for peace. No offense, but it sorta takes the credibility out of anything you say.

This is not a war between nations. It is a nation defending itself against a group of fanatics who have for decades practiced murdering and torturing innocent civilians to try and get their way. It almost makes me lose my lunch when I see people defending these @$$holes.

[jbg]

I'd ask what you two have against attacking terrorist groups, but Black Dog points it out. You guys don't see people who target busses, pizza shops, and religious sites to murder innocent civilians as murderers and terrorists. These people are "freedom fighters" waging war against the horribly oppressive Zionist machine. Those evil jews are horrible dictators, despite the reality that they have arabs and palestinians in their government. Despite the fact that their soldiers were captured and these attacks on terrorist installations is a response to that. So, instead of supporting a nation that is defending itself against a known group of murderers who indiscriminately target women, children and anyone else within the blast range of their suicide bombers and rocket launchers you call these killers guerilla warriors fighting for peace. No offense, but it sorta takes the credibility out of anything you say.

This is not a war between nations. It is a nation defending itself against a group of fanatics who have for decades practiced murdering and torturing innocent civilians to try and get their way. It almost makes me lose my lunch when I see people defending these @$$holes.

This was an e-mail I just received from a Canadian I correspond with, usually on English-language issues:

The portions of text from the e-mail correspondent are in red, the letter from Professor Wichman to a Muslim student association in blue.

Wichman sent an e-mail to the Muslim Student's Association. The e-mail was in response to the students' protest of the Danish cartoons that portrayed the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist. The group had complained the cartoons were "hate speech." Enter Professor Wichman. In his e-mail, he said the following:

Dear Moslem Association:

As a professor of Mechanical Engineering here at MSU I intend to protest your protest. I am offended not by cartoons, but by more mundane things like beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murders, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey!), burnings of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women (called "whores" in your culture), the murder of film directors in Holland, and the rioting and looting in Paris France.

This is what offends me, a soft-spoken person and academic, and many, many, many of my colleagues. I counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Moslems to be very aware of this as you proceed with your infantile "protests."

If you do not like the values of the West -- see the 1st Amendment -- you are free to leave. I hope for God's sake that most of you choose that option. Please return to your ancestral homelands and build them up yourselves instead of troubling Americans.

Cordially, I. S. Wichman Professor of Mechanical Engineering

As you can imagine, the Muslim group at the university didn't like this too well. They're demanding that Wichman be reprimanded and mandatory diversity training for faculty and a seminar on hate and discrimination for freshmen. Now the Michigan chapter of CAIR has jumped into the fray. CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, apparently doesn't believe that the good professor had the right to express his opinion.

For its part, the university is standing its ground. They say the e-mail was private, and they don't intend to publicly condemn his remarks. That will probably change. Wichman says he never intended the e-mail to be made public, and wouldn't have used the same strong language if he'd known it was going to get out.

How's the left going to handle this one? If you're in favor of the freedom of speech, as in the case of Ward Churchill, will the same protections be demanded for Indrek Wichman? I doubt it.

Hey folks, send this to your friends, and ask them to do the same. Tell them to keep passing it around until the whole country gets it. We are in a war. This political correctness crap is getting old!

[BubberMiley]

I'd ask what you two have against attacking terrorist groups...

What do you have against small children that you would encourage them being blown up?

[BubberMiley]

They choose not to control military elements operating within their political territory that are not subject to the will of their politicians.

Can you explain how this makes any sense at all? They choose not to control what they cannot control. Scrambling for excuses to bomb these people, aren't you?

[Argus]

I'd ask what you two have against attacking terrorist groups...

What do you have against small children that you would encourage them being blown up?

Well, sometimes they're very noisy.

[Argus]

They choose not to control military elements operating within their political territory that are not subject to the will of their politicians.

Can you explain how this makes any sense at all? They choose not to control what they cannot control. Scrambling for excuses to bomb these people, aren't you?

If you can't control what happens within your borders then you can't pretend to sovereignty over that area.

And so someone else will come in and deal with it

[Rue]

Blckdog your lack of awareness of the Middle East never ceases to amaze me. You made a comment that Hamas set up shop in Gaza because that is where they live. See when you make comments like that I am not sure if you are being deliberately provocative or are just completely ignorant of what you are talking about. Hamas, Hezbollah and the countless terrorist cells could set up shop away from civilians. I wish you would travel to the Gaza and West Bank and Israel and Lebanon before you make such comments. The choice to place terrorists in apartments WITH civilians, in hospitals, in schools, is deliberate and completely and absolutely avoidable.

Do you see Israel's military setting itself up in civilian zones and in apartments and hospitals and hiding behind civilians? Well do you?

I mean to try and argue that the tactic of using civilians as a shield is understndable nd justifiable because they live there is absolutely the most pathetic thing you have stated to date on this topic and yes you should be embarassed to say it. For that matter why don't you examine the make up of Hamas and Hezbollah. Would it dawn on you that Hamas and Hezbollah are made up of foreigners not residents of the Gaza, West Bank or Southern Lebanon?

As for the South of Lebanon, Hezbollah has plenty of sites nowhere near civilian populations where it trainits terrorists, likewise with Hamas. When terrorists train, they have no problems finding civilian free zones.

Man talk about a double standard. I can just imagine you black-dog if Israeli soldiers took their uniforms off, engaged in the same tactics and hid behind civilians...would you be defending Israeli civilian deaths...of course not because in your mind Israel is the oppressor and everyone else in the Middle East is a victim.

Man if I could take you to Haifa for just one day and have you sit through a missile attack man would your tune change.

[Rue]

They choose not to control military elements operating within their political territory that are not subject to the will of their politicians.

Can you explain how this makes any sense at all? They choose not to control what they cannot control. Scrambling for excuses to bomb these people, aren't you?

If you can't control what happens within your borders then you can't pretend to sovereignty over that area.

And so someone else will come in and deal with it

I will further back up your statement. The UN issued a resolution calling for the disarming of all militias in Lebanon. The Lebanese government openly rejected the resolution and referred to Hezbollah as legitimate freedom fighters who had the right to remain armed and remain in the South conducting terrorist operations.

Lebanon first adopted that position using the occupation of the South by Israel as the excuse for this position. When Israel left and was no longer inside Lebanon, did Lebanon change its posiition. No. Did it do anything to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel, no. It also had no problem with Hezbollah broadcasting on t.v. and radio violent, anti-semitic programming calling on the mass murder of Jews through-out the world. It continued to refer to Hezbollag as legitimate resistance fighters. How are they resistance fighters when there were no Israeli troops in Lebanon to resist.

More to the point, the Lebanese government fully approved the movement of arms from Iran via Damascus Syria through all of Lebanon by truck.

Lebanon has 70,000 troops, the Hezbollah, about 2 to 4 thou.

40% of Lebanon is Shiite. 35% is Christian, the remainder Sunni and Druze. Clearly the minority of the country, the Shiites support Hezbollah and clearly the Christian and Sunni Lebanese although they do not like Israel, do not support Hezbollah. This means the majority of Lebanon is being held hostage by a minority and a group of terrorist thugs whose charter does not recognize Christian and Sunni Lebanese as equals any more then it does anyone else. Hezbollah wants a Shiite fundamentalist state imposed on everyone if it could have its way.

So let us do away with the fiction. Lebanon could have demanded Hezbollah disarm or move up North away from the Israeli border and it chose not to because Syria has been able to control its government and block any action against Hezbollah. The fact is prior to this latest incident with Hezbollah attacking Israel, it had lost all credibility in Lebanon. It could no lonegr refer to itself as a resistance army defending Lebanon. Because Lebanon finally got rid of the Syrians, Hezbollah the proxy army of Syria suddenly found itself unwelcome and seen as a vestigate of Syrian colonial influence. It deliberately attacked Israel to provole Israel into invading Lebanon to regain its status as a force defending Lebanon as opposed to what it always has been a radical anti Israeli, anti-Sunni, anti-Christian terrorist cell of thugs who have no problem holding civilians hostage, kidnapping them, killing them, hijacking planes and violating every rule of human decency.

In the Middle East, if you are a Muslim and you lack credibility, the easiest way to regain your credibility is to be seen as attacking Israel and standing up to it. The one and only thing Muslims agree on in the Middle East is their shared hatred of Israel and that is all Hezbollah is doing, its exploiting this anti-semitism to try regain its authority and status in Lebanon and at what cost? With the exception of Black Dog and probably Shiites in Lebanon and Iran, who really supports Hezbollah. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan do not. For that matter, Syria is Sunni not Shiite and Sunni opposition within Syria to its alliance with Shiite Iran has always been kept down with a vicious Mukbarat intelligence force of killers who murder any Sunni Syrian who questions the alliance.

[Argus]

40% of Lebanon is Shiite. 35% is Christian, the remainder Sunni and Druze. Clearly the minority of the country, the Shiites support Hezbollah and clearly the Christian and Sunni Lebanese although they do not like Israel, do not support Hezbollah. This means the majority of Lebanon is being held hostage by a minority and a group of terrorist thugs whose charter does not recognize Christian and Sunni Lebanese as equals any more then it does anyone else. Hezbollah wants a Shiite fundamentalist state imposed on everyone if it could have its way.

The problem is that half the Lebanese army is Shia, and they would rebel if told to attack Hezbollah.

So there is widespread enoughs upport for Hezbollah to make reigning them in an intimidating task - not because Hezbollah is so powerful, but because so many shiite Lebanese support them.

[BubberMiley]

If you can't control what happens within your borders then you can't pretend to sovereignty over that area.

And so someone else will come in and deal with it

So if Canada decides too many guns are crossing the border from the U.S., we have the moral right to bomb neighbourhoods where we suspect gun-runners might be living?

[Kindred]

Check out the photos of dead children and the Israel air attacks on fleeing Arabs and tourists I posted to the International thread ......

[Kindred]

The BBC is reporting foreign tourists trapped in convoys that are being shelled by Israel air attacks, how do you flee when there is nowhere to go? Bridges and roads are all blown up, and Israel is now dropping bombs on the convoys of civilians trying to get out, others are too terrified to risk their lives trying to flee and Israel has rolled into Lebanon ...... they dont care if you are Canadian, American, British or Arab, a bomb doesnt discriminate .....