Israel Invades Lebanon

[Machinations]

I don't give a shit how Israel was created. It was sixty years in the past. Israel is there. Short of a nuclear war it is not going anywhere. It is utterly pointless to whine about historical injustices which took place before virtually any of the people involved were born. It solves nothing and is only used to perpetuate hatred and a sense of victimhood.

Which further illustrates why your opinion is worthless.

The Occupied Territories are not a nation. They have no army, no control over their borders, no control over currency. They live under a military occupation that is now in it's 38th year. It is the equivalent of the infamous ghettos created by the Nazis in occupied Poland.

I suggest, since you obviously have time on your hands, Argus, that you do a little reading. What you learn might surprise you.

The injustices are not 'historical', they are now. They are every day. The way you put it, this is all very simple.

Let me guess, you think the war in Iraq was a good idea, right? It is leading to increased security for the United States and her allies? Contributing to regional stability?

If you believe any of the above is answered in the affirmative, you have no credibility, in my eyes. If you cannot acknowldge facts on the ground because of your ingrained bias, you are not a credible person in which to engage in discussion. You in fact deny reality when it does not fit your narrow worldview.

[geoffrey]

That is like blaming a woman who fights back as she is being raped and telling her she is equally to blame for the violence between herself and the would-be rapist.

I am speechless.

Israel is violently attacked and fights back. How is it both sides are equally to blame for this violence?

The real analogy if you were to compare is the woman gets raped, and kills the man, kills his family, then randomly starts killing people on the street in revenge, and that's justified because someone was violent towards her initially.

Go for it Israel, kill the terrorists, hang every fool that challenges your government. But randomly bombing subdivisions is absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe Argus supports Israel in this regard. Your ok with our citizens being killed too Argus? Just some minor 'collateral damage'? How many innocent people are ok to kill before it's wrong? Quantify this for me.

[I miss Reagan]

That is like blaming a woman who fights back as she is being raped and telling her she is equally to blame for the violence between herself and the would-be rapist.

I am speechless.

Israel is violently attacked and fights back. How is it both sides are equally to blame for this violence?

The real analogy if you were to compare is the woman gets raped, and kills the man, kills his family, then randomly starts killing people on the street in revenge, and that's justified because someone was violent towards her initially.

Go for it Israel, kill the terrorists, hang every fool that challenges your government. But randomly bombing subdivisions is absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe Argus supports Israel in this regard. Your ok with our citizens being killed too Argus? Just some minor 'collateral damage'? How many innocent people are ok to kill before it's wrong? Quantify this for me.

I might have missed something, but I haven't seen Israel randomly bombing anything. Every action appears to be strategic to me. Let's remember it was Hamas militants who early in this recent violence captured civilians and assasinated them. Let's remember that it's Hezbollah that is indiscriminantly firing missiles into Northern Israel. Most of the time Israel is hitting the homes of Hamas or Hezbollah militants. Women and children are going to die in war. To think that war is possible without the death of innocents is utterly naive.

[Argus]

I don't give a shit how Israel was created. It was sixty years in the past. Israel is there. Short of a nuclear war it is not going anywhere. It is utterly pointless to whine about historical injustices which took place before virtually any of the people involved were born. It solves nothing and is only used to perpetuate hatred and a sense of victimhood.

Which further illustrates why your opinion is worthless.

The Occupied Territories are not a nation. They have no army, no control over their borders, no control over currency. They live under a military occupation that is now in it's 38th year. It is the equivalent of the infamous ghettos created by the Nazis in occupied Poland.

Hmm. You're very brave to admit such utter ignorance about multiple areas of history in the same sentence. Or perhaps you simply have no pride.

The occupation of what remains of Palestine is NOTHING like the German ghettoes in any way, shape or form. And the only reason they are there after 38 years is the utter intransigence of the Arabs. Remember that they tried to give Gaza to the Egyptians some time ago, and tried to give the West Bank to Jordan. All they want is neighbours who won't attack them.

The injustices are not 'historical', they are now. They are every day. The way you put it, this is all very simple.

Of course there are daily injustices! How can there not be under a military occupation in a land of violent guerrila warfare and terrorism!? How do you expect Israelis to think of a people who have surrounded them for generations and taken every possible opportunity to kill them?

[Argus]

That is like blaming a woman who fights back as she is being raped and telling her she is equally to blame for the violence between herself and the would-be rapist.

I am speechless.

Israel is violently attacked and fights back. How is it both sides are equally to blame for this violence?

The real analogy if you were to compare is the woman gets raped, and kills the man, kills his family, then randomly starts killing people on the street in revenge, and that's justified because someone was violent towards her initially.

Uhm, no. A better analogy would be that a group gets its kicks out of raping women, and are thus heros to many on the street, who protect them, admire them, and give them money, and who vote them into parliament and who oppose any government attempt at bringing them to justice. Now if such a group rapes a woman and she takes out her anger at the people in the street, well, who can blame her?

Go for it Israel, kill the terrorists, hang every fool that challenges your government. But randomly bombing subdivisions is absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe Argus supports Israel in this regard.

It does not appear to me that Israel is randomly doing anything, nor does it seem likely Israel ever does things randomly. The small number of deaths, given the scale of things, should indicate to anyone with even a modicum of military knowledge that they are doing their best NOT to kill civilians. Nevertheless, when your enemy is in amongst the civilians, civilian deaths are inevitable.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The men who hide amongst the women and children are not men but beasts. When beasts have rights I will consider their plight.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The Gaza/Lebanon Crises: Escalating Occupation & Danger of New Border Fighting

" All these attacks violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, which sets out the obligations of occupying powers and specifically prohibits collective punishments, "targeted" assassinations, and destruction of the infrastructure of an occupied territory.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You guys can say what you like. You are free to express your opinions. Keep in mind that the UN created Israel. The peolple of Palestine were asked to stay in 1946. They chose to leave. From that day forward they have been conducting acts of violence toward the people and state of Israel.

The entire premise of the dispute is out to lunch. The Jews moved onto that land after defeating the then owners of it millenia ago. They lost it to their enemies at some points and regained it at others. The freaking ownership of the land has been in dispute since time has been recorded. The overiding cause of this is not the fault of either the Jewish or Arab states but it is the fault of those individuals who choose to not live in peace. Yet both sides blame the other for the acts of individuals and the acts of government. Sad but true.

Personally I don't care who is right and who is wrong about the ownership of that land. The simple reality is that the nations of the world have given the Jews a piece of land to call their own after the horrific events of the second world war. The survivors of the holocaust had nothing to their names and the world gave them nothing but a desert. The made the dessert bloom and now they are guilty of success. I think the root cause of this dispute is greed and envy.

Welcome to world war three people. I can only hope to God that the politicians of the world can see this as a tragedy to be avoided not an opportunity to capitalize on. The arms makers of the world will get rich, and the citizens will die. I fear that the only solution is the extermination of one or the other of these proud races of peoples. I will regret there passing, but I will not advocate participation from my country in the affairs of theirs. This battle is the one to avoid. This could be the beginning of the end people, all that is needed to hasten that time is to provide fuel to the fire and it will consume everything.

[Black Dog]

I might have missed something, but I haven't seen Israel randomly bombing anything. Every action appears to be strategic to me. Let's remember it was Hamas militants who early in this recent violence captured civilians and assasinated them. Let's remember that it's Hezbollah that is indiscriminantly firing missiles into Northern Israel. Most of the time Israel is hitting the homes of Hamas or Hezbollah militants. Women and children are going to die in war. To think that war is possible without the death of innocents is utterly naive.

Almost 150 civilians have died since Wednesday. And, given Israel is hitting northern Lebanon (a predominately Sunni area that has little dealings with Hizbullah and absolutely nothing to do with Hamas) has me wondering what they are trying to accomplish (I suspect the waterways of southern Lebanon have something to do with it.)

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I think that the intent is to bring the nation to its knees. If they want to win this war they will have to remove the current government and get one that opposes terrorism and its supporters. There is no other way to protect their northern border.

[August1991]

Almost 150 civilians have died since Wednesday. And, given Israel is hitting northern Lebanon (a predominately Sunni area that has little dealings with Hizbullah and absolutely nothing to do with Hamas) has me wondering what they are trying to accomplish (I suspect the waterways of southern Lebanon have something to do with it.)

Huh? Northern Lebanon? Waterways?

Hizballah launches rockets into Israel aiming them, if at all, at populated areas with the purpose to kill civilians. Israel drops leaflets beforehand telling people to leave the area and then specifically targets military sites or Hizballah offices. It's remarkable that the Canadian citizens killed were in village a 3 kms from the Israeli border.

Israel has no intention to push Lebanon and the Lebanese into the sea. The Israelis would like nothing more than to live in peace inside their borders. They have negotiated giving up land (true, obtained after Arab invasions that were unsuccessful) in exchange for promises of secure borders.

Hamas and Hizballah have the specific objective to destroy the State of Israel.

I'm surprised by the naivety of some western politicians, and westerners in general. There can be no compromise with Hizballah and Hamas. They are like teenage thugs - which most of the militia are in fact. They only understand strict force. This is not at all like Egypt or Jordan or previous wars.

The Lebanese government had time to control or disarm Hizballah. They never did it. The Lebanese (and Jordanians) faced this problem with the Palestinians before. Lebanon simply cannot allow an armed militia to operate on its soil outside of the control of the Lebanese government.

Would you advocate negotiating with the street gangs in Toronto? Or would you advocate dealing with them as a police problem? Now, what happens if the city of Toronto doesn't deal with the problem and the gangs become a menace for other Canadians?

That is a parallel for the situation.

[Argus]

I think that the intent is to bring the nation to its knees. If they want to win this war they will have to remove the current government and get one that opposes terrorism and its supporters. There is no other way to protect their northern border.

They don't have to remove the government, they just have to get the Sunnis, Druze and Christians pissed off enough at Hezbollah to get them to force Hezbollah to disarm. These groups already wanted Hezbollah to disarm, but were disuaded from confronting the Shiites. Because, after all, it wasn't them the Hezbollah were targeting. The Israelis have just brought home to them in a big way that if one part of Lebanon commits an act of war against another country then all of Lebanon can suffer the consequences.

[GostHacked]

To me this seems like Israel was just looking for a fight. This is the most aggressive they have been in the last 20 years it seems. I have never seen them act this aggressive for some soldiers getting nabbed. IT just seems weird. And they are not letting up at all.

The Lebanese government cannot control it, and they have admitted to it. But yet Lebanon is getting blame for it. Also Lebanon was still trying to get their crap together after Syria pulled out of Lebanon last year after the one leader was killed.

I have heard others say the same thing from friends. It looks like they were ready and wanting a fight. But they needed a reason to go in.

[Argus]

To me this seems like Israel was just looking for a fight. This is the most aggressive they have been in the last 20 years it seems. I have never seen them act this aggressive for some soldiers getting nabbed. IT just seems weird. And they are not letting up at all.

It's called deterrence. Israel is outnumbered by what - 100-1, by people who hate them. The only thing which keeps them from being attacked again and again is the sure and simple knowledge that anyone who attacks Israel will get their dick cut off. Thus Israel can't afford to back down. As long as Hezbollah continues to fire missiles into Israel Israel will continue to punish Lebanon. It might not dissuade Hezbollah one bit, but it's a very good lesson to other Arab nations (Syria, Jordan and Egypt learned this lesson a long time ago) - and Lebanon, for that matter. If you have armed groups like this in your country, you better make damned sure they stay far from our borders. Because if they kill our people we will damned sure be killing yours.

And one would assume, if the Lebanese have any brains, that when this is all done they will do whatever it takes to disarm Hezbollah and get them away from the border.

[geoffrey]

I might have missed something, but I haven't seen Israel randomly bombing anything. Every action appears to be strategic to me. Let's remember it was Hamas militants who early in this recent violence captured civilians and assasinated them. Let's remember that it's Hezbollah that is indiscriminantly firing missiles into Northern Israel. Most of the time Israel is hitting the homes of Hamas or Hezbollah militants. Women and children are going to die in war. To think that war is possible without the death of innocents is utterly naive.

Almost 150 civilians have died since Wednesday. And, given Israel is hitting northern Lebanon (a predominately Sunni area that has little dealings with Hizbullah and absolutely nothing to do with Hamas) has me wondering what they are trying to accomplish (I suspect the waterways of southern Lebanon have something to do with it.)

There are definitely motivates beyond destroying Hezbollah, I can't believe people would think otherwise. Israeli officals have already said they want to send the Lebanese population back 10 years in infrastructure.

I don't know if they are going for a land gain beyond Golan, but I can tell you that this attack is more like a thug puffing out his chest and saying 'don't f-- with me' then about destroying terrorists.

I'm surprised by the naivety of some western politicians, and westerners in general. There can be no compromise with Hizballah and Hamas. They are like teenage thugs - which most of the militia are in fact. They only understand strict force. This is not at all like Egypt or Jordan or previous wars.

The Lebanese government had time to control or disarm Hizballah. They never did it. The Lebanese (and Jordanians) faced this problem with the Palestinians before. Lebanon simply cannot allow an armed militia to operate on its soil outside of the control of the Lebanese government.

Your response is more well informed than most, but I think your looking at this very naively. Lebanon is a fragile democracy, in a dangerous place of the world. Disarming Hezbollah would be in essence as risky as the Irish (in Ireland proper) disarming the IRA with force during the peak of that crisis. An overthrow of government wouldn't be suprising.

And I'd rather have Hezbollah as a fringe militiant group than as a military ruling power of a nation.

It actually would make more sense to have Israel take out Hezbollah as it wouldn't cause domestic turmoil (Hezbollah has very little real support in Lebanon).

[August1991]

Almost 150 civilians have died since Wednesday. And, given Israel is hitting northern Lebanon (a predominately Sunni area that has little dealings with Hizbullah and absolutely nothing to do with Hamas) has me wondering what they are trying to accomplish (I suspect the waterways of southern Lebanon have something to do with it.)

I saw one report of an explosion in Tripoli in the north, but it's not clear what the source of the explosion was. It appears that the Israelis are trying to enforce an embargo on Lebanon by stopping routes in or out, including seaports. I don't know if this is to prevent reinforcements being sent to Hizballah or to prevent Hizballah militia from being able to escape. The Israelis did something similar in 1982 by boxing in the PLO (but allowing Arafat himself to escape to Tunis).

Here is a description of a journalist driving in northern Lebanon (Bikfaya) on the western side of Mount Lebanon from Zahle:

The contrast between the western Bekaa and towns on the other side of the Lebanon range was, frankly, startling.

Here was another Christian area, but unlike the Bekaa, it does not also have a large Shia Muslim population, the sect from which Hezbollah draws most of its support.

In other words, something would have to go seriously wrong if these well-heeled towns overlooking East Beirut were to be bombed by the Israelis.

Therefore, down in the Bekaa, cars were driving flat-out and very few people were venturing out of their homes.

But here, shops were open, scantily-clad Maronite Christians were strolling about, eating ice-cream, and in the open-air restaurants the first barbecues were being lit for the evening clientele.

That is not to say that Bikfaya is not also suffering from the current round of fighting - normally this place would be heaving with Gulf Arabs on holiday, but they have already left for Syria.

For the rest of the descent into East Beirut, life seems similarly, eerily, almost normal - a world away from the fierce and deadly Israeli bombing that has pummelled the southern, Shia-dominated part of the Lebanese capital.

BBC

The usual route from Damascus to Beirut is closed and so the journalist took another route that appears to still be open. I recall driving it once (it's long and sinuous and rather bleak at the top of the mountain). I have been to Bikfaya several times. It is a luxury resort in the mountains.

This is very sad for Lebanon but the Lebanese understand perfectly what's going on here. The Israelis don't fool around but they generally know what they're doing.

A key question now is whether the Israelis follow up by a large scale ground invasion. In 1982, the Israelis went north to the main Beirut-Damascus highway.

[Argus]

There are definitely motivates beyond destroying Hezbollah, I can't believe people would think otherwise. Israeli officals have already said they want to send the Lebanese population back 10 years in infrastructure.

Which Israeli officials said this? I'd like to see some names and cites, please.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

Israeli officals have already said they want to send the Lebanese population back 10 years in infrastructure.

Which Israeli officials said this? I'd like to see some names and cites, please.

I'll try to look it up, but it is a couple of days old now, it won't be an easy find. I do remember reading those exact words, though.

An interesting bit I found today...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...60718-dod01.htm

VICE ADM. WALSH: Rahmah does have a capacity of about 1,400. We'll see that in Cyprus here tomorrow, and I'll be able to update you once we get operations with it.

And I'm sorry, Tom. What was the other part of your question?

Q The other is, do you expect any of the Navy vessels to take part in the evacuation? Or is that just in case of an emergency procedure?

VICE ADM. WALSH: I do expect Navy vessels to participate in the authorized departure of American citizens out of Beirut.

The 'authorized' departure... authorized by whom? The Lebanese or the Israelis? Or do they mean the US? (They didn't say 'authorized individuals', they said 'authorized departure'...)

[GostHacked]

The 'authorized' departure... authorized by whom? The Lebanese or the Israelis? Or do they mean the US? (They didn't say 'authorized individuals', they said 'authorized departure'...)

Authorized individuals as well (i'd say), I get some will be left behind. Would not want to get a suicide bomber on one of the ships.

[geoffrey]

I think that the intent is to bring the nation to its knees. If they want to win this war they will have to remove the current government and get one that opposes terrorism and its supporters. There is no other way to protect their northern border.

The current government is pro-peace, Hezbollah is supported by 10% of the population, all other parties are moderate.

There are definitely motivates beyond destroying Hezbollah, I can't believe people would think otherwise. Israeli officals have already said they want to send the Lebanese population back 10 years in infrastructure.

Which Israeli officials said this? I'd like to see some names and cites, please.

Israel, however, appeared determined to win freedom for its troops with a show of force.

Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned the Lebanese government that the Israeli military will target infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years," if the soldiers were not returned, Israeli TV reported.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060712/ap_on_...on_israel_clash

There you go Argus, just attack civilian infrastructure to punish the innocent. Got to love it.

[BubberMiley]

Ah, but he didn't say 10 years...he said 20.

[Argus]

There are definitely motivates beyond destroying Hezbollah, I can't believe people would think otherwise. Israeli officals have already said they want to send the Lebanese population back 10 years in infrastructure.

Which Israeli officials said this? I'd like to see some names and cites, please.

Israel, however, appeared determined to win freedom for its troops with a show of force.

Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned the Lebanese government that the Israeli military will target infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years," if the soldiers were not returned, Israeli TV reported.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060712/ap_on_...on_israel_clash

There you go Argus, just attack civilian infrastructure to punish the innocent. Got to love it.

Fine, but that's not the same thing at all. There is a difference between an Army general warning the Lebanese that if they didn't give back the soldiers and stop the attacks his nation would hammer the hell out of them and what you said above, which was that "Israeli Officials" WANT to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure as some sort of nefarious plot beyond getting back their soldiers and pushing back Hezbollah. It's not quite a lie but it's a pretty heavy slant on what was said.

[August1991]

Not to put too fine a point on it Geoffrey, but you posted:

There are definitely motivates beyond destroying Hezbollah, I can't believe people would think otherwise. Israeli officals have already said they want to send the Lebanese population back 10 years in infrastructure.

And this is what the guy apparently said:

Israel, however, appeared determined to win freedom for its troops with a show of force.

Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned the Lebanese government that the Israeli military will target infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years," if the soldiers were not returned, Israeli TV reported.

There's a difference between saying you're going to do A and warning that you're going to do A if someone else doesn't do B and then actually doing A in fact.

The army chief was issuing a threat. He wasn't saying that Israel was intending to destroy Lebanon.

Moreover, this is the Middle East. The Lebanese (and Israelis) are a cantankerous lot. They are not laconic like north Europeans. The noise and bravado go far beyond actual slights.

During the entire Lebanese Civil War from 1975-92, there were about 40,000 Lebanese killed (estimates vary wildly from 20,000 to 100,000). The Russians killed 200,000 Chechens in the period of 1994-04 (conservative estimate). A death of anyone young is a tragedy but some perspective on the relative violence and how it captures world attention is in order. This may sound crass but I swear that the Lebanese and Israelis like the limelight.

[Black Dog]

The Lebanese paper the Daily Star reports that Israel has started hitting industrial targets, including the country's largest dairy farm, Liban Lait; a paper mill; a packaging firm and a pharmaceutical plant. Perhaps the cows are harbouring terrorists?

It's prety apparent that Israel is intending to destroy Lebanon. Because, you know, having one failed state in their backyard hasn't caused them enough problems, they need another.

[August1991]

's prety apparent that Israel is intending to destroy Lebanon. Because, you know, having one failed state in their backyard hasn't caused them enough problems, they need another.

All of those targets are directly connected to Hizballah. The purpose is not to destroy Lebanon; the purpose apparently is to destroy Hizballah.

I don't know if the Israelis can achieve that.

[i'd like to see independent confirmation of the extent of the targetting. The pharamaceutical plant is likely since it's obviously a military target. There's always a lot drama and hyperbole when it comes to Middle East wars.]