Israel Invades Lebanon

[Black Dog]

All of those targets are directly connected to Hizballah. The purpose is not to destroy Lebanon; the purpose apparently is to destroy Hizballah.

Any evidence of that August? Or is the fact that Israel bombed them proof enough? Look, we have no less a personage than the Army Chief of Staff threataning to destroy civilian infrastructure. Now, it appears that threat is being carried out. In other words, these attacks have nothing to do with Hizbullah, but with trying to weaken the resolve of the Lebanese people in hopes they'll demand Hizbullah be reigned in. I don't think that will be the effect, but it seems to be the intent.

I don't know if the Israelis can achieve that.

That I can agree with. They spent 20 years trying to destroy Hizbullah which led directly to the current situation. There's nothing to suggest this current campaign (directed as it is at the parts of Lebanaon where Hizbullah is not active) will work any better.

[injusticebuster]

In 1947 Israelis kidnaped,executed 2 British sergeants, and it worked for them, they got what they wanted.

In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to increase the cost of British mandatory rule and influence British public opinion so as to encourage British withdrawal. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including the British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

[August1991]

Any evidence of that August?

Well, once you get through the verbiage, this is the article's key paragraphs:

Bisri confirmed that a plastics factory in Tyre, a tissue paper factory in Sidon, a paper mill and a medical supply company in Beirut's southern suburbs and Liban Lait in the Bekaa were all almost completely destroyed. Bisri declined to give the companies' names.

Former LAI president Jacques Sarraf said he was aware of two plastics factories in the South and one in the Bekaa that had suffered extensive damage.

Those are all places where Hizballah would have support. We don't know if the plants were deliberately targetted or were collateral damage. And we only have this guy's word about the true vocation of these plants. Taking all this at face value, this is a blow to the economic strength (tax collecting powers) of Hizballah.

They spent 20 years trying to destroy Hizbullah which led directly to the current situation. There's nothing to suggest this current campaign (directed as it is at the parts of Lebanaon where Hizbullah is not active) will work any better.

They haven't confronted Hizballah directly.

Clearly, the Israelis felt that now is the time to get this job done. Why now? Who knows. This has clearly been planned for quite some time and it appears also that it was designed with stages in mind. To me, that implies they were thinking about world reaction. So far, I'd say the reaction has been muted or even positive. Everyone is fed up with the whacko in Tehran and he may have been the reason the Israelis felt they had a window of opportunity now.

Heck, even the Saudis are onside in that they have stated that they don't support Hizballah. I suspect many Lebanese are secretly happy that the Israelis are dealing with a problem that they know the Lebanese government can't deal with.

Don't get me wrong. The Israelis are perfectly capable of losing this "secret goodwill" by doing something stupid. And it's still not clear to me how the Israelis plan to remove Hizballah as a threat in Lebanon. It's not like the PLO.

----

If that snippet of Open Mike conversation is to be believed, it appears that Bush is no better informed than the rest of us. It's called plausible deniability and the Israelis have always play their cards close to their chest, while cultivating an impregnable - even mad-dog - reputation.

But here's a thought experiment, BD. If Hizballah had command of the same military force as Israel, how do you think Nasrallah would use it? Do you think he would be strategically striking pharmaceutical plants in Israel? Or do you think he would long ago have ordered a ground invasion and a scorched-earth strategy.

If the shoe were on the other foot, Canada would not be organizing cruise ships to go to Tel-Aviv harbour. There'd be no one to pick up.

[Black Dog]

Those are all places where Hizballah would have support. We don't know if the plants were deliberately targetted or were collateral damage. And we only have this guy's word about the true vocation of these plants. Taking all this at face value, this is a blow to the economic strength (tax collecting powers) of Hizballah.

And we only have your word (and Israel's) of a Hizbullah connection. In any case, bombing food and pharmaceutical faciklities will do a lot more damage to the populace than Hizbullah (tax collecting powers? Come on.)

They haven't confronted Hizballah directly.

From 1982 to 2000 that's precisely what they were doing. "Grapes of Wrath" ring any bells?

But here's a thought experiment, BD. If Hizballah had command of the same military force as Israel, how do you think Nasrallah would use it? Do you think he would be strategically striking pharmaceutical plants in Israel? Or do you think he would long ago have ordered a ground invasion and a scorched-earth strategy.

Probably. What's your point? No one is arguing for Hizbullah's moral superiority.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

If the shoe were on the other foot, Canada would not be organizing cruise ships to go to Tel-Aviv harbour. There'd be no one to pick up.

You give the impression that the Arabs in the ME are bent on genocide, and while some may be, the intent that has been stated by those that fight against Israel is more arin to 'policide', or destruction of the 'zionist entity'.

[Black Dog]

You give the impression that the Arabs in the ME are bent on genocide, and while some may be, the intent that has been stated by those that fight against Israel is more arin to 'policide', or destruction of the 'zionist entity'.

Well, the "Zionist entity" is made up of a lot of Jews. Destroying the former neccesarily means killing a lot of the latter.

[Kindred]

Those are all places where Hizballah would have support

That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever heard. The Hizballah are mobile, they have no static military installations or camps or presence.

Isreal is determined to annhilate Lebanon and the Arabs and if anyone has any doubts of that now they are truly in denial and living in a cave somewhere ...........

Stupid CNN or someone reported last night that only 17 people had been killed in the barrage on Beruit and Southern Lebanon, give me break already ....... We dont know what the body count is .... we wont know for a very long time, if ever.

There never was a final count in Dresden, the numbers coming out of Irag in the intial attack were SO untrue and covered up by the "embedded Media" ........ anyone SEEING the damage, SEEING the barrage has to know its a helluva lot higher than is being reported .......

It is indefensible. Totally completely indefensible.

[August1991]

Those are all places where Hizballah would have support

That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever heard. The Hizballah are mobile, they have no static military installations or camps or presence.

Hizballah is a member of the Lebanese coalition. It operates rather as a state within a state. Lebanon is not a federal state so it is hard to imagine its status compared to Canada. Can you imagine the Parti Quebecois having its own armed militia?

Isreal is determined to annhilate Lebanon and the Arabs and if anyone has any doubts of that now they are truly in denial and living in a cave somewhere ...........

I would bet offhand that you don't know Lebanon.

You give the impression that the Arabs in the ME are bent on genocide, and while some may be, the intent that has been stated by those that fight against Israel is more arin to 'policide', or destruction of the 'zionist entity'.

Jordan and Egypt have signed peace treaties with Israel and there are Islareli Embassies in Cairo and Amman. It is Hizballah and Hamas that want to destroy Israel. Many Arabs can live with its existence.

And we only have your word (and Israel's) of a Hizbullah connection. In any case, bombing food and pharmaceutical faciklities will do a lot more damage to the populace than Hizbullah (tax collecting powers? Come on.)

All of those locations are places with Shia concentrations and Hizballah support. I'll bet the Israelis know the owners of each one of those plants and who the owner supports politically. The equivalent in Canada would be destroying any large business owned by French-Canadians who support sovereignty but leaving intact businesses owned by English-Canadians and other French-Canadians. But I have no evidence to support that contention.

They haven't confronted Hizballah directly.

From 1982 to 2000 that's precisely what they were doing. "Grapes of Wrath" ring any bells?

I think you'll agree BD that since their incursion in 1982, the Israelis have done nothing like this.

----

Seen from afar, it appears to be all random mayhem. Well seen from afar, I think all Albertans are conservative rednecks.

[Black Dog]

Stupid CNN or someone reported last night that only 17 people had been killed in the barrage on Beruit and Southern Lebanon, give me break already ....... We dont know what the body count is .... we wont know for a very long time, if ever.

According to the Beeb, Lebanese PM Fouad Siniora says 300 people have been killed in the Israeli offensive, including at least least 55 civilians today. Twenty-nine Israelis, including 15 civilians, have been killed.

All of those locations are places with Shia concentrations and Hizballah support. I'll bet the Israelis know the owners of each one of those plants and who the owner supports politically. The equivalent in Canada would be destroying any large business owned by French-Canadians but leaving intact businesses owned by English-Canadians. But I have no evidence to support that contention.

The same logic could be applied to schools run by Hizbullah, but I don't think anyone would be arguing that bombing such targets would be a moral or effective course of action. Bottom line is such attacks will do more to undermine civilian life and social order than the organization itself.

I think you'll agree BD that since their incursion in 1982, the Israelis have done nothing like this.

Not on this scale. But it's incorrect to say they've never gone after Hizbullah directly. The invasion in 1982, the occupation of southern Lebanon, cross border incursions (notably in 1993 and 1996) were all operations conducted against Hizbullah with the aim of disrupting its operations. The intent this time seems to be to undercut them by creating an environment unfavourable for them to operate in

[Machinations]

Go for it Israel, kill the terrorists, hang every fool that challenges your government. But randomly bombing subdivisions is absolutely ridiculous and I can't believe Argus supports Israel in this regard. Your ok with our citizens being killed too Argus? Just some minor 'collateral damage'? How many innocent people are ok to kill before it's wrong? Quantify this for me.

In essence I agree. Israel has a right to defend itself. However, this response has been, as they say in news releases, 'disproportionate'.

Israel has at least the appearance (and this in itself can be damaging) of being engaged in a deliberate collective punishment - state-sponsored terrorism. I have no problem with Israel stopping rocket fire from terrorists living in Lebanon, but I am certain that bombing random rural villages many miles from the border (which demonstratably had no military value) does not help accomplish that goal.

There is nothing stopping Israel from halting the large scale bombardments (which seem designed to kill and maim as many as possible) and actually trying to track down the people they want. Israel is clearly in the wrong here, if the release of the soliders and the stopping of rocket fire is the real goal.

Of course, someone might suggest that Israel wishes to make sure Lebanese never allow Hezbollah to become invested in the political process again, by making them fear the results of their own elections.

But hey, call my a cynic - in the US they can elect a near-illiterate mouth breather and no one bats an eye.

[Machinations]

Not on this scale. But it's incorrect to say they've never gone after Hizbullah directly. The invasion in 1982, the occupation of southern Lebanon, cross border incursions (notably in 1993 and 1996) were all operations conducted against Hizbullah with the aim of disrupting its operations. The intent this time seems to be to undercut them by creating an environment unfavourable for them to operate in

Actually Dog you are incorrect here, in a way. Hezbollah was formed as a response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Hezbollah did not exist prior to this. Hezbollah was formed directly by Iran in response to the Israeli invasion.

Israel 'responded' by creating its own Christian militas, inflaming a decade long religious civil war. Let's not forget that US Marines were also operating in Beirut, contrary to what Congress and the american people were told, during the invasion. This was revealed when a car bomb was detonated at the secret US Barracks in Lebanon, forcing Reagan to pull all ground forces out - though presumably, special forces units remained active for some time, as is often speculated.

I suggest Israel is intending to punish Lebanon for the results of the elections. The idea being to make the vast majority of Lebanese, the moderates, fear Hezbollah as much as they do the Israelis. This also has much to do with internal Israeli politics, which are driven mostly by security concerns. Olmert is seen as a lawyer - and his position has traditionally been held by a 'strongman', if you will. Many Israelis will assert in Haa'retz that Olmert is partially using this offensive to display his 'strength'.

State sponsored terrorism in the modern era.

[August1991]

The same logic could be applied to schools run by Hizbullah, but I don't think anyone would be arguing that bombing such targets would be a moral or effective course of action. Bottom line is such attacks will do more to undermine civilian life and social order than the organization itself.

What does bombing an empty school building in a residential district accomplish? Compare that with bombing a newly refurbished plant owned by a wealthy Shia connected to Hizballah. Extra points if the plant may have military production.

I think you'll agree BD that since their incursion in 1982, the Israelis have done nothing like this.

Not on this scale. But it's incorrect to say they've never gone after Hizbullah directly. The invasion in 1982, the occupation of southern Lebanon, cross border incursions (notably in 1993 and 1996) were all operations conducted against Hizbullah with the aim of disrupting its operations. The intent this time seems to be to undercut them by creating an environment unfavourable for them to operate in.

(I'll go on memory so excuse any errors of timing.) The Israelis had a buffer zone along the border and the South Lebanese Army in the south Bekaa. The Israelis pulled out. Perhaps they expected the Lebanese government to assert its sovereignty. Well that obviously didn't happen. With the Syrian pull out, Hizballah has been able to operate unchallenged.

IMV, the Israelis want to rid Lebanon of Hizballah. I suspect the Israeli thinking is that the Shia will not identify with Hizballah if Hizballah is impoverished, humiliated, non-existent. One thing is for sure. The Israelis had to respond. Maybe the Israelis are simply taking advantage of mute world opinion to throw in a few extra kicks. I dunno.

[August1991]

There is nothing stopping Israel from halting the large scale bombardments (which seem designed to kill and maim as many as possible) and actually trying to track down the people they want.

Kill and maim as many as possible? I would say off hand that the Israelis have people on the ground in Lebanon directing the air attacks and assessing damage. If the Israelis wanted to kill and maim, they would do it differently. Have you ever heard of Chatila?

Of course, someone might suggest that Israel wishes to make sure Lebanese never allow Hezbollah to become invested in the political process again, by making them fear the results of their own elections.

Hizballah is hardly representative of all Lebanon, but Hizballah has too much money and too much influence. Unfortunately, it won't leave Lebanese politics soon and I fear that the Israeli approach may not work. Trudeau got rid of the FLQ but that was a different time and place.

But hey, call my a cynic - in the US they can elect a near-illiterate mouth breather and no one bats an eye.

Machinations, your otherwise intelligent posts are marred by such comments. Play the ball, not the man.

[theloniusfleabag]

Just an aside here, does anyone know if the Israelis have used this weapon, and if not, why not?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/mthel.htm

The mission of the MTHEL is based on a Common Operational Requirement developed by the US Army Air Defense School and the Israeli Air Force....

In tests during late 2002, the Army used the high-energy laser to heat artillery shells, which exploded in flight. In earlier tests, the laser shot down 25 Katyushas, both singly and in salvos.

[Machinations]

'But hey, call my a cynic - in the US they can elect a near-illiterate mouth breather and no one bats an eye.'

Machinations, your otherwise intelligent posts are marred by such comments. Play the ball, not the man.

Forgive me.

The man at the depanneur at the corner, he owns it with his family. He has two cute daughters that also work with him that I make a point of flirting with. They were supposed to go to Lebanon this summer to visit their grandmother. My friend became worried, before the trip, and cancelled - thankfully. They would have left only two weeks before the bombing started. My friend managed to talk to his mother yesterday for the first time since this started...he spoke to her for only a minute or two and the line went dead. Put yourself in his shoes - in their shoes. Morality - humanity, these are qualities I respect and I see little humanity in many of the asinine comments here.

Forgive me if I get upset, but unlike the vast majority of you, I have a personal connection to the crisis. The appaling lack of humanity displayed by some here stirred up anger in me that has, in the past, caused me to get arrested. Hence, I expunge it on these boards.

Also, no one has responded to my assertation: Israel is punishing Lebanon for the results of the elections. They wish to make ordinary Lebanese fear Hezbollah as much as they do Israel, so that Hezbollah never becomes invested in the political process again. Now this is clearly the motive, right down to the pamphlets they are dropping from warplanes. But you won't hear that in the mainstream media - might make people think.

August - as to target selection - the Israelis have noone on the ground, AFAIK. For example, a Christian neighbourhood was hit with two Israeli missiles yesterday. Their target? Two water-drilling machines that the media helpfully volunteered 'might have been mistaken for missile launchers'. Never mind that they look NOTHING like WW2-era Katuyshas - they look like civilian water drills. Apparently 'surgical strikes' don't come with malpractice insurance - you know?

[Kindred]

Israel is punishing Lebanon for the results of the elections. They wish to make ordinary Lebanese fear Hezbollah as much as they do Israel, so that Hezbollah never becomes invested in the political process again. Now this is clearly the motive, right down to the pamphlets they are dropping from warplanes. But you won't hear that in the mainstream media - might make people think.

I didnt respond because I thought that was a "given" - I have a connection to this because I am a human being and absolutely appalled by this destruction and annihilation of Lebanon. I am appalled at the lack of response from the rest of the world .......... I am appalled at the Canadians response ........ I am appalled at people trying to justify it and supporting it .......

People for the most part dont want to hear the history, the aggression of both sides, they just seem to like the "fire show" and revel in the carnage ......

[August1991]

Also, no one has responded to my assertation: Israel is punishing Lebanon for the results of the elections.

Lebanese elections didn't start this. But I don't disagree that the Israelis want to eliminate Hizballah and will use any means to achieve that end.

August - as to target selection - the Israelis have noone on the ground, AFAIK. For example, a Christian neighbourhood was hit with two Israeli missiles yesterday. Their target? Two water-drilling machines that the media helpfully volunteered 'might have been mistaken for missile launchers'.

Precision bombing is may be an oxymoron. But I think it's more precise now than, say, 20 years ago. The Israelis seem to be using the US playbook in Serbia and Iraq. Will there be a ground war? Dunno.

As to people on the ground, Lebanon is the easiest place to infiltrate and it is unthinkable that the Israelis would not have access to very good intelligence, in real time.

As to your story about the Lebanese shopkeeper, I have deep affection for Lebanese of all faiths but I have to admit that there is not alot that separate them from Israelis. They are emotive people who have a tendency to dramatize or play to the audience.

----

This report seems relevant:

Foreign ministers of 18 Arab countries passed a resolution Saturday calling on the U.N. Security Council to intervene to stop escalating Mideast fighting.

Despite the unanimous vote, delegates at the emergency meeting bickered over the legitimacy of Hezbollah, a dramatic rift over an Israeli action against one of their own that usually would have united them.

....

Moderate states led by the region's political and economic heavyweight Saudi Arabia lashed out at Hezbollah for starting the recent fight, while hard-liner Syria defended its ally.

"These acts will pull the whole region back ... and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal told his counterparts, according to delegates who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the meeting.

Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, including the capture of two Israeli soldiers Wednesday and rocket barrages, were "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts," one delegate said.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, he said.

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem emerged as the summit's lead defender of Hezbollah, saying the guerrilla group carried out "legitimate acts in line with international resolutions and the U.N. charter, as acts of resistance."

Representatives of Yemen, Algeria and Qatar lined up behind him.

AP

So the Arab League is split - look who falls on which side - but then it appeals to the Security Council to sort it out. Well, Arab solidarity always was something of a fraud so maybe it's better that it's out in the open.

If there's big news here, that's it. And the Israelis are perfectly aware of all this.

[Black Dog]

So the Arab League is split - look who falls on which side - but then it appeals to the Security Council to sort it out. Well, Arab solidarity always was something of a fraud so maybe it's better that it's out in the open.

If there's big news here, that's it. And the Israelis are perfectly aware of all this.

Things are starting to break down on Shia/Sunni lines across the region. I wonder if that has anything to with the situation in Iraq, or if it's a simple matter of the western backed Sunni states realizing that, in the post 9-11, "war on terra" world, it's good to remember who signs the cheques.

[Machinations]

As to your story about the Lebanese shopkeeper, I have deep affection for Lebanese of all faiths but I have to admit that there is not alot that separate them from Israelis. They are emotive people who have a tendency to dramatize or play to the audience.

They never mentioned it. I asked the father about it, and he seemed composed when he told me the story, but for a usually jovial and convivant man, he was sullen and nervous looking. He was not trying to get my attention - he was more interested in trying to lighten the mood, and kept trying to change the subject. I persisted, because I have known him long enough and I see him every day, usually joke with him. Not lately, I'll tell you.

The biggest lie in that article is that Saudi Arabia is a 'moderate'. The regime, a monarchy, are American lapdogs with huge personal assets. The people of Saudi are poor and Wahhabism has been encouraged by the monarchy in order to curb perceptions that they are pro-American. It is a disaster waiting to happen. Right now, the Saudis are quaking in their boots that Israel will start a broader war. If they do, and the monarchy does nothing, the people might revolt.

[GostHacked]

Maybe we should all take a look at this piece.

http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/2006/beirut_timeline/