Six Nations Crisis- “Canada’s Pandora’s Box?”

[Okwaho]

Boy these Caledonains are keeping us busy!

[mister_v]

The Two Row Wampum was made with the Dutch, period. The Covenant Chain was a separate ideal between the British and the Iroquois, along with some other native groups at the time. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Two Row Wampum automatically applied to all Europeans. But I am sure the ideals of the Two Row Wampum were incorporated into the metaphor of the Covenant Chain.

As it concerns the Six Nations, the Proclamation stopped being a factor at the end of the American Revolution when the Six Nations lost their lands in New York State to the Americans and the act of the Crown purchasing land from the Mississaugas and the Six Nations settling that land under the Crown's protection. At that point, the Six Nations became subjects of the Crown (and I am referring specifically to those that settled at the Grand River).

As for the documents pertaining to the land surrenders of portions of the Tract, I encourage you to visit canadiana.org and look up "Indian treaties and surrenders, from 1680 to 1890". It'll take some reading through but you'll find the relevant material.

There is no pickle. Thats only in your mind.

I am from Grand River and I can asure you completely we are not subjects of the Crown. The Haldimand and Simcoe specifically refer to Six Nations at Grand River. Both of them state implictly friends and allies. If you have access to the Time Life book series on Native Americans look at the volume with Iroquois in it. You'll find that we have our own passport and it's recognized in 36 coutries. You are mistinterpreting the arcaic english. If what you are interpreting was fact our Confederacy wouldn't speaking with the government at this very moment. Yes it is a pickle with the valid Crown land patent issue or again the government wouldn't be wasting it's time talking and especially out of court! I hope that puts things into perspective for you.

Indeed the Six Nations are subject to the laws of Canada. There is no misinterpretation. Denying that the Six Nations are subject to Canadian laws doesn't contradict that fact. To attempt to do so flies in the face of the very Deed which gave the Six Nations permission to settle that land.

Passports do not imply nationhood or sovereignty. Sealand also issues passports.

[Okwaho]

The Two Row Wampum was made with the Dutch, period. The Covenant Chain was a separate ideal between the British and the Iroquois, along with some other native groups at the time. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Two Row Wampum automatically applied to all Europeans. But I am sure the ideals of the Two Row Wampum were incorporated into the metaphor of the Covenant Chain.

As it concerns the Six Nations, the Proclamation stopped being a factor at the end of the American Revolution when the Six Nations lost their lands in New York State to the Americans and the act of the Crown purchasing land from the Mississaugas and the Six Nations settling that land under the Crown's protection. At that point, the Six Nations became subjects of the Crown (and I am referring specifically to those that settled at the Grand River).

As for the documents pertaining to the land surrenders of portions of the Tract, I encourage you to visit canadiana.org and look up "Indian treaties and surrenders, from 1680 to 1890". It'll take some reading through but you'll find the relevant material.

There is no pickle. Thats only in your mind.

I am from Grand River and I can asure you completely we are not subjects of the Crown. The Haldimand and Simcoe specifically refer to Six Nations at Grand River. Both of them state implictly friends and allies. If you have access to the Time Life book series on Native Americans look at the volume with Iroquois in it. You'll find that we have our own passport and it's recognized in 36 coutries. You are mistinterpreting the arcaic english. If what you are interpreting was fact our Confederacy wouldn't speaking with the government at this very moment. Yes it is a pickle with the valid Crown land patent issue or again the government wouldn't be wasting it's time talking and especially out of court! I hope that puts things into perspective for you.

Indeed the Six Nations are subject to the laws of Canada. There is no misinterpretation. Denying that the Six Nations are subject to Canadian laws doesn't contradict that fact. To attempt to do so flies in the face of the very Deed which gave the Six Nations permission to settle that land.

Passports do not imply nationhood or sovereignty. Sealand also issues passports.

Another Caledonian in denial!

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period.

Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada.

O:nen

[geoffrey]

She:kon!

Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period.

Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada.

O:nen

Ok, time to cut off the welfare then. Don't deserve a dime if your not Canadian, we don't give yanks welfare.

I think you should pay it all back too, if you indeed were never Canadian. Where's my moola?

[Okwaho]

She:kon!

Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period.

Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada.

O:nen

Ok, time to cut off the welfare then. Don't deserve a dime if your not Canadian, we don't give yanks welfare.

I think you should pay it all back too, if you indeed were never Canadian. Where's my moola?

You have obviously not been paying attention in class.

[cybercoma]

She:kon!

Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period.

Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada.

O:nen

Honestly, you're willing to give up healthcare, education, police protection, court system and social services, etc.? I mean, that's cool if you want to be left alone. Would you be willing to setup all of those things yourself within your communities?

[watching&waiting]

I usually find that I am quick to lose my temper when I am faced with stupidness or just plain brickwalls that do not want to listen to the arguements. I have little time to live 150 years in the past and I do like to think that people in the here and now have a pretty good jude of fair play and the law. So when I see an occupying force in Caledonia, and one where the Judge has now said it must be removed, I find little sympathy for what will probably happen next. I can only hope that the police forces that go to remove these people from the land, will not have to shoot anyone. Also all that have to be forcefully removed should be jailed for the maximum time the law allows.

This is Canada and you will obey our lays or you go to jail. If you do not want to obey our laws then stay on the reservation and never set foot off of it. Support yourselves and wake up the medicine man, because he is going to be needed more then ever. The native land claim will only get solved in the courts and if the natives can not live with that, then maybe they should take a long look at who it is that allows them to live the way they are. I have many friends that are indian and yes they know just how to play that fact to get the most out of it. The smart ones are not the drunks and protesting ones, as htere is no money in that. The ones you see doing this are mostly the lower end of the tribe, who have many issues with alcohol and abuse. That is why you seldon get a sensible answer from protesters.

Now that a court of law has ordered the removal of the protesters, it seems that a show down will ensure. It will probably turn violent and if the police must use force I hope it is of the type of shooting in non life threatening body areas. It will be the protesters who will set the tone, by the amount of resistence they put up. As far as whether the federal government will step in and stop this goes... I do not think it will happen. If this goes one much longer I will say that my view is more and more going to go against the native land claims then for it. Maybe they need to see just how much harm this is doing their cause.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Honestly, you're willing to give up healthcare, education, police protection, court system and social services, etc.? I mean, that's cool if you want to be left alone. Would you be willing to setup all of those things yourself within your communities?

We already operate on those things on our own within our communities.

Now that a court of law has ordered the removal of the protesters....

Well not only have we ignored him and told him he has no jurisdiction, so has the Attorney General, the Premier and the Prime Minister. The occupation of our own sovereign lands is not illegal and even though the government may not yet fully agree, they are more interested in talking about it than they are letting some old fart stroking his gavel, make them do something other than that. Negotiations will progress regardless.

Watching&waiting, you don't have a clue what your are talking about. So rather than making more of a fool out of yourself than you already have you'ld be well advised to silence your ignorance, go in the bathroom and close the door for a couple of hours. Just make sure the fan is on full.....

O:nen

[jdobbin]

It's hard to understand why someone who just wants to be left alone doesn't just leave this forum alone. What's the point? You don't require nor need our support. Why try and convince anyone here about your argument? Why not move along?

[Big Blue Machine]

I usually find that I am quick to lose my temper when I am faced with stupidness or just plain brickwalls that do not want to listen to the arguements. I have little time to live 150 years in the past and I do like to think that people in the here and now have a pretty good jude of fair play and the law. So when I see an occupying force in Caledonia, and one where the Judge has now said it must be removed, I find little sympathy for what will probably happen next. I can only hope that the police forces that go to remove these people from the land, will not have to shoot anyone. Also all that have to be forcefully removed should be jailed for the maximum time the law allows.

This is Canada and you will obey our lays or you go to jail. If you do not want to obey our laws then stay on the reservation and never set foot off of it. Support yourselves and wake up the medicine man, because he is going to be needed more then ever. The native land claim will only get solved in the courts and if the natives can not live with that, then maybe they should take a long look at who it is that allows them to live the way they are. I have many friends that are indian and yes they know just how to play that fact to get the most out of it. The smart ones are not the drunks and protesting ones, as htere is no money in that. The ones you see doing this are mostly the lower end of the tribe, who have many issues with alcohol and abuse. That is why you seldon get a sensible answer from protesters.

Now that a court of law has ordered the removal of the protesters, it seems that a show down will ensure. It will probably turn violent and if the police must use force I hope it is of the type of shooting in non life threatening body areas. It will be the protesters who will set the tone, by the amount of resistence they put up. As far as whether the federal government will step in and stop this goes... I do not think it will happen. If this goes one much longer I will say that my view is more and more going to go against the native land claims then for it. Maybe they need to see just how much harm this is doing their cause.

Agreed.

[Who's Doing What?]

It's hard to understand why someone who just wants to be left alone doesn't just leave this forum alone. What's the point? You don't require nor need our support. Why try and convince anyone here about your argument? Why not move along?

So far all they have done is turn people away from their cause.

[jdobbin]

So far all they have done is turn people away from their cause.

We keep hearing they don't need not want our support. So why do they come here?

[NativeCharm]

We are not "all" saying that. Many of us are from differrent nations and have differrent viewpoints, just like the rest of you.

[jdobbin]

We are not "all" saying that. Many of us are from differrent nations and have differrent viewpoints, just like the rest of you.

I think you know who we are talking about. Basically anyone who might be supportive is re-buffed and criticized for being Canadian with an explanation that only harm can come from non-Natives.

[mister_v]

Well not only have we ignored him and told him he has no jurisdiction, so has the Attorney General, the Premier and the Prime Minister. The occupation of our own sovereign lands is not illegal and even though the government may not yet fully agree, they are more interested in talking about it than they are letting some old fart stroking his gavel, make them do something other than that. Negotiations will progress regardless.

Watching&waiting, you don't have a clue what your are talking about. So rather than making more of a fool out of yourself than you already have you'ld be well advised to silence your ignorance, go in the bathroom and close the door for a couple of hours. Just make sure the fan is on full.....

O:nen

Negotiations have stopped, as they should. When the appeal is denied the government will have no choice but to respect the court's decision and remove the protestors from the site. Because Canadian law applies to the Six Nations as I showed you last night. You are subjects of the Crown, not a sovereign nation.

The land was surrendered, the documents are readily available. The Six Nations doesn't have a pot to piss in.

You can jerk yourself off all you like but please, don't make us watch.

[NativeCharm]

darn quote thing never works for me

[NativeCharm]

Well not only have we ignored him and told him he has no jurisdiction, so has the Attorney General, the Premier and the Prime Minister. The occupation of our own sovereign lands is not illegal and even though the government may not yet fully agree, they are more interested in talking about it than they are letting some old fart stroking his gavel, make them do something other than that. Negotiations will progress regardless.

Watching&waiting, you don't have a clue what your are talking about. So rather than making more of a fool out of yourself than you already have you'ld be well advised to silence your ignorance, go in the bathroom and close the door for a couple of hours. Just make sure the fan is on full.....

O:nen

Negotiations have stopped, as they should. When the appeal is denied the government will have no choice but to respect the court's decision and remove the protestors from the site. Because Canadian law applies to the Six Nations as I showed you last night. You are subjects of the Crown, not a sovereign nation.

The land was surrendered, the documents are readily available. The Six Nations doesn't have a pot to piss in.

If this WAS truly the case, which it isnt...then this incident would not still be happening. If the government DID have jurisdiction on their"subjects" land, which they don't..then OPP would be allowed on Six Nations territory, which they are not, as with many other Native nations. The government knows this and THAT my dear watson wannabe is WHY there has been your so-called "lawlessness" in this particular region. Marshall's decision was nothing more than a public plea for more violence in a situation that has potential to be controlled.

[mister_v]

She:kon!

The Two Row was extended by the British as the Conenant Chain. It is the same treaty in essence.

The British never purchased the tract from the Mississaugas. The Haldimand Tract, as well as the North Shores of Erie to Georgian Bay and Ontario to the Trent and Ottawa Rivers was already Confederacy territory. The Mississaugas had a treaty with us to manage the lands in our absence . The agreement was witnessed in Taiagon (Toronto) in about 1664. The Mississaugas were paid a sum to return to their traditional lands on the north shore of Superior, that's all.

The return to the Haldimand Tract was a reoccupation of traditional lands. The Proclamation was a guarantee that Haudensaunee had absolute autonomy and authority over the lands and that no settlers would be permitted to settler the area. The proclamation was not necessary on our behalf since we knew our territorial limits but it was a law to prohibit setters from landing there. The British and the Crown recognized our sovereignty as allies. There was never any agreement, assumption or capitulation that made us subjects. Nada. None!

Our soveriengty is intact as is our traditional government. We don't need Canadian rule nor are we willing to compromise our land or our autonomy for the sake of friendship.

O:nen

A masterpiece in historical revisionism. Someone who wants to mold history in order to fulfill their modern day agenda. Orwellian really.

The Covenant Chain was a separate ideal from the Two Row Wampum which is natural since it was two different European nations, the British and the Dutch.

The Mississaugas were the superintendants of the Iroqouis? That'd be funny if you weren't trying to be so serious about it.

The Mississaugas held sway over southern Ontario at the time of the Haldimand Proclamation, that is fact. The Seneca settlements in what is now Toronto were abandoned by the late 1680's, that is fact. Moreover, when the Crown first went to the Mississaugas for the sale of their land in the Tract for the settlement of the Six Nations, the Mississaugas were very hesitant to have their former enemies live there. It was only after they had met with Joseph Brant that their fears were set aside.

The Tract was not any sort of traditional Iroquois land. Hence the Crown having to purchase it from the Mississaugas. The Proclamation did not make any indication that the Six Nations had any sort of sovereignty, that was not the spirit of the document nor the intent. But both the Proclamation and the more relevant Simcoe Deed did explicitly say that the Six Nations were under the protection of the Crown. By settling the land under those documents, the Six Nations became subjects of the Crown.

Your claim of sovereignty is fake.

Listen, I can understand your frustration. If I was trying to rely on BS arguments and getting called on it, I'd be pretty pissed too.

[mister_v]

Another Caledonian in denial!

FYI, I live nowhere near Caledonia.

[mister_v]

She:kon!

Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period.

Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada.

O:nen

Wake up. They do apply to the Six Nations by virtue of those very documents.

Sadly, with you and your ilk, whats probably needed is a harsh day of reckoning. Then, long after the smoke clears, your descendants (who will be prospering as Canadian citizens having not been subjected to your indoctrination of fake sovereignty) will be left scratching their heads wondering why those radicals from the Six Nations made such poor choices.

[Okwaho]

She:kon!

Canada's laws DO NOT apply. Period. You can dream they do all you want. Neither the Haldimand Proclamation or the Simcoe Patent changed that. Period.

Our soverienty defines our passport, not the other way around. Haudenosaunee are independent and soveriegn and ARE NOT subjects of the Crown or citizens of Canada.

O:nen

Wake up. They do apply to the Six Nations by virtue of those very documents.

Sadly, with you and your ilk, whats probably needed is a harsh day of reckoning. Then, long after the smoke clears, your descendants (who will be prospering as Canadian citizens having not been subjected to your indoctrination of fake sovereignty) will be left scratching their heads wondering why those radicals from the Six Nations made such poor choices.

Cunning linguists, native sovereignty doubters and native culture experts alike. Read these.

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/02/feb16_1_02.htm

http://www.oneida-nation.net/lcletter.html

[jdobbin]

Cunning linguists, native sovereignty doubters and native culture experts alike. Read these.

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/02/feb16_1_02.htm

http://www.oneida-nation.net/lcletter.html

Those links show various Native groups against one another on policy.

Overall though, southern Six Nations representatives have been very much better at working with New York and the federal government.

[Canuck E Stan]

Cunning linguists, native sovereignty doubters and native culture experts alike. Read these.

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/02/feb16_1_02.htm

http://www.oneida-nation.net/lcletter.html

I like the idea of the State, the Counties, and the Oneida Indian Nation of New York having agreed to stand together to defend any any landowners being threatened. Co-operation as it should be.

The Wisconsin Oneida Tribe, which is a party to the Oneida land claim but has a separate and distinct government from the Oneida Indian Nation of New York, has threatened to file new land claims, as early as next week, to ask the federal district court to eject certain private landowners from their homes.

The State, the Counties, and the Oneida Indian Nation of New York have agreed to stand together to defend against these new threatened actions. The State will use all legal means at its disposal to have these claims dismissed out-of-hand.

In the unlikely event the lawsuits are permitted by the Federal Court to proceed, the State will fully defend in Court any landowners sued by the Oneida Wisconsin Tribe, and the State will indemnify any landowner who suffers court imposed damages as a result of these new threatened lawsuits.

"New Yorkers will not succumb to threats and scare tactics designed to impose the selfish interests of the Wisconsin Oneida over the interests of our own citizens -- Indian and non-Indian alike -- who want to work and live together with peace and respect," Governor Pataki said. " Let there be no mistake -- we will stand united with property owners against adversaries who do not care about the well being of Central New York -- particularly the Oneida Tribe of Wisconsin."

[mister_v]

Negotiations have stopped, as they should. When the appeal is denied the government will have no choice but to respect the court's decision and remove the protestors from the site. Because Canadian law applies to the Six Nations as I showed you last night. You are subjects of the Crown, not a sovereign nation.

The land was surrendered, the documents are readily available. The Six Nations doesn't have a pot to piss in.

If this WAS truly the case, which it isnt...then this incident would not still be happening. If the government DID have jurisdiction on their"subjects" land, which they don't..then OPP would be allowed on Six Nations territory, which they are not, as with many other Native nations. The government knows this and THAT my dear watson wannabe is WHY there has been your so-called "lawlessness" in this particular region. Marshall's decision was nothing more than a public plea for more violence in a situation that has potential to be controlled.

The only reason the OPP does not remove the protestors is because the Liberal government doesn't have the balls to do so. One does not have to be the Amazing Kreskin to see that.

Even the province's negotiators know that historical fact is not on the side of the Six Nations and one of the negotiators has said as much at a recent community meeting in Caledonia.

The OPP does not work on the reserve because, in agreement with the province, Six Nations has a police department which is subject to the provisions and level of service in the provincial Police Services Act. The same applies for any other reserve in the province which has its own police department. For those reserves which do not, they are policed by either the OPP or, possibly but I am not entirely sure of, the RCMP.

The judge's ruling was the correct one. The Courts are not interested in whether progress was being made or even if there were any negotiations to begin with.