Six Nations Crisis- “Canada’s Pandora’s Box?”

[jdobbin]

I like the idea of the State, the Counties, and the Oneida Indian Nation of New York having agreed to stand together to defend any any landowners being threatened. Co-operation as it should be.

Exactly. Why can't the northern Six Nations act more in accordance with the southern Six Nations? Fear and anger is no way to negotiate.

[mister_v]

"New Yorkers will not succumb to threats and scare tactics designed to impose the selfish interests of the Wisconsin Oneida over the interests of our own citizens -- Indian and non-Indian alike -- who want to work and live together with peace and respect," Governor Pataki said. " Let there be no mistake -- we will stand united with property owners against adversaries who do not care about the well being of Central New York -- particularly the Oneida Tribe of Wisconsin."

Thats my favourite part

[jbg]

Cunning linguists, native sovereignty doubters and native culture experts alike. Read these.

http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/02/feb16_1_02.htm

http://www.oneida-nation.net/lcletter.html

OK, want independence, sovereignty? How about no government support from "white man" or the UN?

[Okwaho]

Those links show various Native groups against one another on policy.

You're evading the points! Land title and sovereignty! Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change the facts!

[Okwaho]

"New Yorkers will not succumb to threats and scare tactics designed to impose the selfish interests of the Wisconsin Oneida over the interests of our own citizens -- Indian and non-Indian alike -- who want to work and live together with peace and respect," Governor Pataki said. " Let there be no mistake -- we will stand united with property owners against adversaries who do not care about the well being of Central New York -- particularly the Oneida Tribe of Wisconsin."

Thats my favourite part

But the reality is the fact that they said because the possibility exists.

[Riverwind]

But the reality is the fact that they said because the possibility exists.

There may be a legal claim but I am pretty sure the value of it will be much less than the annual GDP of the US or even the annual GDP of New York state. The cost may be high but it could be absorbed by the taxpayers. In Canada, settling the claim directly is simply not an option - the theoretical cost is simply too high. Six Nations might win a court victory, however, they would probably find that the gov't will look at changing the constitution to allow compensation to be limited to what the gov't decides is affordable - and there is nothing that Six Nations could do to stop the gov't from doing that.

[Canuck E Stan]

"New Yorkers will not succumb to threats and scare tactics designed to impose the selfish interests of the Wisconsin Oneida over the interests of our own citizens -- Indian and non-Indian alike -- who want to work and live together with peace and respect," Governor Pataki said. " Let there be no mistake -- we will stand united with property owners against adversaries who do not care about the well being of Central New York -- particularly the Oneida Tribe of Wisconsin."

Thats my favourite part

But the reality is the fact that they said because the possibility exists.

It may exist but the reality is all those in Centeral New York,the Oneida Indians and the non-Indians will not put up with:

adversaries who do not care about the well being of Central New York

The six nations are like those adversaries, those who do not care about the well being of all citizens in the Caledonia area.

Six Nations have much to learn from their American counterparts.

[cybercoma]

But the reality is the fact that they said because the possibility exists.

There may be a legal claim but I am pretty sure the value of it will be much less than the annual GDP of the US or even the annual GDP of New York state. The cost may be high but it could be absorbed by the taxpayers. In Canada, settling the claim directly is simply not an option - the theoretical cost is simply too high. Six Nations might win a court victory, however, they would probably find that the gov't will look at changing the constitution to allow compensation to be limited to what the gov't decides is affordable - and there is nothing that Six Nations could do to stop the gov't from doing that.

The Constitution and the Government have no power over them and mean nothing to them, they just want to be left alone. So, why should the government give them anything? Just leave them alone.

[Riverwind]

The Constitution and the Government have no power over them and mean nothing to them, they just want to be left alone. So, why should the government give them anything? Just leave them alone.

Well that is the stupid thing about their arguments. They want Canada to given them something and they think the constitution will force Canada to do that but at the same time they same the Canadian constitution can't force them to do anything they don't want to do.

This country desperately needs a statute of limitations on historical injustices. I am pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Canadians would support a constitutional change that would not not deny aboriginal rights nor say that they have no right to compensation but take the power to decide what compensation is fair from the court and give it to parliament.

[watching&waiting]

This thread has shown me that there are some reasonable people within the native communities that have the ability to speak in an informed way about issues, of past present and future times. It may well come to pass that Canada will finally settle all claims or it may just limit these claims to a time frame that excludes them from every getting resolved. I also has seen that there are thise who have absolutely no wish to speak intelligently and are only looking for arguments. Every group has these types and Canada side in this is no different.

I agree with the judge in this case that the protesters must be removed, and while the AG of Ontario may have said that the judge has over stepped his authotity for stopping discussions while the land is seized. It can also come to past that this judge can order the protests illegal and order they be taken into custody just on the fact, that they are breaking the law. He does have that authority and he may well use it very soon. So what would be wise is for the protesters to leave of their own accord, before the courts take them out and jail them for many years, under our present laws. You can not say that you could not see this coming and it would be pretty stupid to sit and wait for it to happen.

On the side of the Native groups, I would say that the claims to land that you use for your way of life, should be mapped out and surveyed at your own cost and them a proper land claim files addressing the con cerns that both side would have. If this is not done,then you will be forever having this same problem. Also try your best to keep your more radical people from getting involved just as the same can be said for the government side as well. I do not ever believe that there will be a settlement for money in this, but there may be a setttlement in land for land. Since this government basically pays for your way of life and you take this each and every month and year, then you must see that if you open this too far, you will also open the support issue along with it. Todays people would be far less willing to allow natives that support then they were long ago. Just remember to open one means you are going to open it all. If that is what you wish then let it happen soon and get this over with.

[jdobbin]

You're evading the points! Land title and sovereignty! Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change the facts!

Stop yelling at me. I've never argued against the treaties. I've argued against intimidation and threats.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well, well. It seems as though this discussion has answered the question that initiated this thread.

My apologies for my absence, I was beckoned by the Mother Earth and the drums. If I had been here, I would have attempted to discontiue the disgusting racist remarks that grew completly out of control. I wish I had the powers to change some of the ignorance that exists in Canada, however some people will never change and they are happy to pretend they have all the answers, and sadly, some of them are here in this forum.

For those of you new posters....Welcome and BIG thank you for participating in this forum. There are many posters here who have attempted to hide their racism through carefully chosen words and fabricated statements, however there are the people here that have asked to be educated and are willing to listen, share and learn for the sake of a brighter future for all generations.

Jerry Fortin: I was most amused by your post..you were NEVER a Native supporter, I'm shocked that you would lie about your false conversion. You're more likely to be a drag queen preaching gay rights before you EVER even attempt to embrace an understanding of Native people's. YOU FOOL NO ONE! Please continue with your act, I truly enjoy watching people make an ass of themselves. (applauds)

As for the gutbusting "Riv", well he's the forums ol' local headlining comedy act, he'd be banned if he wasn't so darned funny ( tosses Riv a buffalo nickel). None of what he has to say should EVER be taken seriously. Him and many of his wannabe buddies have issues with Natives having their own economy or any sort of financial gain. They will say anything, and even go so far as to inventing facts so long as it appears as though Native SHOULD NOT...blah blah blah. He lives in a dream world of his own where Native people and treaties and Canadian history do not exist. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT ever do business witrh this man, as his handshake is as worthless as his word and he will never open his eyes to look at a contract. If he was Native, he'd belong to the trickster family.

I invited many Native and Non-Native people to this forum to witness and participate in discussions in hopes of eliminating racism through knowledge sharing and enlightening discussions. I hope many of us will strive for this goal.

We face many issues with our people and the relationship to Canada, please everyone ~much respect.

Good Morning Native Charm!. You seem to know a lot about me in your opinion. For instance, you claim to know what is in my mind which has about as much credibility as your land claims. You make assumptions and leaps of faith and miss the point. I never said I understood your points or problems, these are things you believe but are not true. You need to get your act together my friend and at least try to debate based on the facts and the issues.

Let us begin this debate based on the reality of events and the current state of affairs. For starters you have knowingly misrepresented my position, and attributed concepts to my posts in the absence of facts. Most recently you have insulted me and used profanity while doing so. These things do little to create any form of credibility and integrity for your position. But we can move on in the hope that you can still decide to enter into a civil debate to advance your cause through carefully crafted arguements designed to convince others of the validity of your statements and the relevance of your points.

As citizens of the same lands we share problems that need to be addressed and resolved in a timely fashion. The way to do that is through calm and reasoned debate with an open minded and fair attitude. Now if you truely seek solutions that is the way it will come to pass my friend.

[NativeCharm]

You've made your point Mr. Fortin. It is no secret how short my fuse is when I am faced with either ignorant people or those that put a false foot forward.

I will save you the humilation of making you eat your own your words and refrain from quoting you. It really "irks" me when people say, " oh now your extremist and you have converted this supporter...blah blah blah". I've watched your posts since coming to this forum and your position ( though you may hide it quite well) has been very clear. So why, WHY would you pretend to be something you are not?

Granted, I'm sure you're not a drag queeen, and I hope you are not offended by that, however from what I have read of your opinion of our people and our issues it seems to be more likely you would sooner be that than an actual supporter.

Also, I don't recall using any profanity in reference to you? Gay rights and drag queens is like swearing to you? I apologize if you are insecure of your sexuality and IF you take that as an insult. Truly I do, I thought you were tougher than that. My bad.

Friend is not a term I use as lightly as you.

[NativeCharm]

Since this government basically pays for your way of life and you take this each and every month and year,

WTF kinda comment is this? ARE YOU KIDDING? It's your type of attitude that keeps the racism alive today.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I am a very different kind of citizen. He who is not my enemy is my friend. Just to set the record straight, I favour native self government. For more than thirty years I have had this position because I don't think that Canadian society as a whole has the right to determine how your people should live. This is supposed to be a free and democratic country but unfortunately the government of this damned nanny state has at some point in time decided to play big brother. I think that this was a very bad decision on their part and it represents what I choose to call " the sins of the fathers". That is the past, it is history and it is now our responsibility to address the problems and seek a resolution to the issues created by the foolish mistakes of those that came before us.

Now having said all of that, you can call me gay if you like. Not true but you are free to say as you please, but once again making possibly inflamatory statements does little to futher your cause. I take no offense and am not in any way troubled by that sort of personal attack. I choose to debate the issues regardless of the abuse I receive for the effort.

There are extremists on ALL sides, they are the true problem. Reasonable people can sit down and discuss the problems and attempt to resolve them in an honourable and respectful manner. The only lasting solution is one in which both sides can come to an understanding and agreement with each other. Grey areas are exploited by zealots and extremists, terms of agreement need to be precise and black and white in nature.

There are problems to be solved that will require patience and trust on both sides in order to achieve a workable solution.

[NativeCharm]

Patience and Trust? Hmmmm. Where oh where have we heard that before? Just as in any relationship, once the trust is gone, there really isn't much of a relationship anymore. Any tokens of trust that has been given to the Natives has been betrayed. Repeatedly.

I believe they have exhausted these much explored avenues long ago. I think the natives have more than demonstrated their share of patience over the past couple hundred years.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Where oh where have we heard that before?

I'm from the government and I'm here to help you...... (old time favourite)

The cheque's in the mail......

I won't c%#& in your mouth.......

The newest one added "Hi! I'm from Indian Affairs. Trust me, you'll get your land back...."

O:nen

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Native Charm if there is no trust and no patience there will likely not be a resolution. If natives choose not to negotiate, that is your business but then you need to relinquish your claims. This is known as a rock and a hard place. The same kind of thinking that got us to this point will not provide the means to get us out of the current situation. We will need to think outside of the box to fix this problem.

In order to move forward we need to respect each others positions and undertake a resolution process that serves to bring the opposing parties together for mutual benefit. Unless the parties in question can find benefit from resolution then the entire endeavour is a waste of time and effort. This is a simple reality, people will not enter into negotiations to lose ground only to gain ground. It is a process of give and take that must occur in order to have both parties find and promote benefit for their newly modified positions. This is no simple task we are discussing here. There is a very charged emotional environment here that needs to be reconcilled before a solution can be put forth for consideration.

It is possible to create agreement and democratic concensus amongst the parties involved with just a little reasonable intent. That is the challenge that faces us.

[NativeCharm]

Thanks for telling me what I already know.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Native Charm if there is no trust and no patience there will likely not be a resolution.

Not true. The trust ensures that when guys like David Peterson ask us to take down the barracades in return for the return of the Burtch lands, we don't say "ok"........we say "put it in writing without any weasle clauses." Of course when he reneged after all it was easy to justify the re-erection of the barracades to hold him to his written word.

The government has used all kinds of slimy tricks over the centuries in dealing with agreements. At first they cluttered the agreements with jumbled colonial legaltese hoping that we would not understand it. Of course it worked for some First Nations but we had lots of experience with the o'seronni and we insisted they clarify and simply it. Then they tried to imply that our agreements meant that we gave up our rights to challenge them on the language or intent of the langauge just because we made the agreement. Not so, and so when we insisted they were incorrect - that we didn't agree not to look at the agreements and enforce them accordingly, they quickly imposed a law that prohibited us from seeking redress in their courts. Then after a while they further compunded that injustice by replacing our government at gunpoint and installing one of their own - one that would agree with their interpretations of the agreements or else be starved out from existence.

In order to secure their imposed governments and to prevent anyone from going agains their illegal take over, they grabbed our children in the middle of the night with the expectation that they would make them subjects of their abusive masters and thereby silencing any opposition that might occur in the future. That never worked either. And so their next step was to keep us poor and marginalized by their laws and inequity in an attempt to force assimilation either through death or necessity. At my own reserve, people were banned from shopping for material goods, and food off reserve and imports into the reserve were controlled by the Indian Agent. He kept food and human necessities to a minimum and then offered some people a way out by offering them cash for their land and status as an Indian. Once we were enfranchised then we would be given the vote, the freedom to work off reserve and to act like any other Canadian. Those who took the deal ended up without the vote, performing only the menial jobs offer to them and were banned from bars and restaurants by owners support and protected by the government. In return they lost their homes, their property, their connection to their families and even had to deny themselves and their heritage in order to secretly obtain proper employment.

The the government turned to the courts allowing Natives to sue for land claims. Yet the court was overwhelmed with irrelevent historical documentation that the government successfully (in some cases) argued that not only did some Nations give away their land but they gave away their brothers and their aunts and uncles as well. Over the years as we became educated as lawyers and politicians and challenged the rulings, complete with legal documentation to prove the government lied and cheated Indians, then they suddenly decide that the courts are no longer the place to adjucate these disputes. They proposed and implemented a "lands claim commisions" with the sole intent of delaying, ignoring and reducing valid claims through ineptitude and bureaucracy.

I say we have been extremely patient and if not for the illegal, immoral and iequitible behavior on your government's (and the British) these disputes and their ramifications on other people could have been settled back in about 1802. However, your government, knowing in the end it would lose all challenges has successfully delayed the isses to a point where ordinary Canadians stand to lose a great deal in any and every settlement. That is why we no longer follow the Canadian way of settling land issues and why we have changed the rules more in keeping with preventing others from being dragged into the effects through further private development and encroachment. By taking the lands back and putting them in our control development of the Haldimand Tract will essentially come to a screeching stop. And since your government is really just a big business in disguise, working for other big business, hitting them where it counts gets action. It really is interesting how your government's attitude has changed recently by not only validating our title but also recognizing our sovereign government. Seems that by messing with the business interests in the area, the government realizes the long-term impact and is now ready to salvage the best they can out of an untenable situation.

We are not "between a rock and a hard place" as you say. Quite the opposite in fact as we hold all the cards and have your government knocking at our door (once again) to share a little with you. I have no doubt that this will eventually unfold with both a lot more money in our pockets, a greater recognition and commitment to settle all of our claims, a new educational component to teach the truth about the treatment of First Nations by Canada and Canadians, a return of most of the vacant lands and farms, greenspace, parks and conservation areas and roads in the tract as well as a whole chunk of money as compensation for the remainder occupied lands. And given that fact that the whole goal of the government in settling these claims is to maintain some continuity for businesses and residents there will be few, if any gains for you.

Now you can cry that I am talking as an extremist but the reality of the situation is that we are not the only nation with land disputes with your government....we are just the first in the new process. Since Ontario, like Alberta is covered with First Nations territories holding treaties with the Crown there is not any doubt that the settlements will be fast and furious or the consequences will be that the net costs (like the value of our trust and the market value of the occupied lands) will grow by the billions each year in interest alone. I'm not sure that you can afford to pay it all back, but if you don't start somewhere by making payments then Canada will be in bankruptcy in no time. And what better way to be taken over by the US than to come in when your money is worthless and starting running the show........

You have a choice, no doubt. Although you keep denying that the result is a net loss for Canada, the net gain for us as we continue to grow. We will collect since that is part of the new process. Pay us now or pay us later but rest assured you will pay us....in full.......

O:nen

[NativeCharm]

and then...What happens if they try to kill us off again? I can see them using the Six Nations as the perfect ploy to initiate mass mayhem, in hopes of killing off as many across the homelands as they possibly can.

[Riverwind]

and then...What happens if they try to kill us off again? I can see them using the Six Nations as the perfect ploy to initiate mass mayhem, in hopes of killing off as many across the homelands as they possibly can.

If you do then you have to cut back on whatever drug you are using. The Canadian gov't is deathly afraid of accidentally killing even a single protester - that is why the blockade has been left alone for so long. Even suggesting that anyone in the gov't has murderous intent towards natives is libelous and perhaps the most pathetic piece of hate propaganda that I have seen posted on this website. Unfortunately, it is typical of the racist hate mongering that fills most of your posts.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

That's just it. We're not sitting waiting. They know full well what happens when they corner a rattlesnake. There we severely bitten at Oka. And they also realize that once the venom is in addition venom will eventually take them totally out of commission.

They could follow the calls for army intervention but they would not be successful. Nor could the army contain a catestrophic nation-wide uprising without also sacrificing their peaceful world image and their citizens. Negotiation is their only recourse and it is not a good prospectus to boot.

We have reminded them that reserves only hold about 15% of our people. The rest live in cities and towns all over North America they cannot "wipe us out" without taking a lot of ordinary citizens with them since we are indistinguishable - just like the Iraqis and the Afghans it would be impossible to sort out the legitimate opposition.

O:nen

[NativeCharm]

Thanks for your reply Tsi. I was only asking because hypothetically they could view it as being cheaper to remove us from the equation. Of course it's not possible and most certainly "may" not even be considerable. However, I'm sure they will consider every other option other than breaking the bank.

[NativeCharm]

and then...What happens if they try to kill us off again? I can see them using the Six Nations as the perfect ploy to initiate mass mayhem, in hopes of killing off as many across the homelands as they possibly can.

If you do then you have to cut back on whatever drug you are using. The Canadian gov't is deathly afraid of accidentally killing even a single protester - that is why the blockade has been left alone for so long. Even suggesting that anyone in the gov't has murderous intent towards natives is libelous and perhaps the most pathetic piece of hate propaganda that I have seen posted on this website. Unfortunately, it is typical of the racist hate mongering that fills most of your posts.

Riv Dahlin, the only drug I'm on is an open mind, you might want to try it sometime. Calling me a racist hate monger only demonstrates your dizziness.