2 Kidnapped Soldiers Found

[Melanie_]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13432770/

Take a look at these boys' faces. I know this sounds trite and overplayed, but they were so young, and had so much to live for. And what will their deaths accomplish? Just a deeper seated need to repay the killers, continuing the cycle. The whole thing is just pointless - kill an American, kill an Iraqi, keep going and going and going.

[Shakeyhands]

kidnapped? but I agree with you otherwise

[BHS]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13432770/

Take a look at these boys' faces. I know this sounds trite and overplayed, but they were so young, and had so much to live for. And what will their deaths accomplish? Just a deeper seated need to repay the killers, continuing the cycle. The whole thing is just pointless - kill an American, kill an Iraqi, keep going and going and going.

Except, of course, that it's not a cycle of violence. The US has clear goals - to bring democracy to Iraq, to ensure that a democratic government has the tools to maintain law and order, and to establish good relations with the Iraqi government such that it is agreeable to hosting a long term rapid reaction force a la Germany and South Korea. When these goals are accomplished the bulk of the American forces will be withdrawn from the country. Your implication that there is an element of random violence or vengence to America's motives and actions is just plain wrong. The American military takes extraordinary measures to ensure that it's soldiers act within a strict code of conduct that involves no vendetta taking at all, and imposes severe punishments on soldiers who cross that line.

And take a good look at those faces again, because the next images you see of their bodies won't be including those faces or anything else from the neck up. They were found headless, and I'm confident we'll be hearing about the videos appearing on Al Jazeera in the next few days. Every aspect of what has happened, including our own cable news networks' unwillingness to subject their viewers to real torture (as in, torture not involving female underclothing) illustrates the difference between the two opposing sides between which you are so casual to assume a moral equivalency.

[Temagami Scourge]

The US has clear goals - to bring democracy to Iraq, to ensure that a democratic government has the tools to maintain law and order, and to establish good relations with the Iraqi government

Buddy, are you for real? Iraq is completely and totally a command failure at the top. The poor soldiers there have been put into the position they find themselves in as a result of lies and exaggerations. The real enemy is still in Afghanistan, or on the Afghan/Pakistani border. Don't come here trying to tell us there is some kind of coherency entwining planning and policy because the current political administration has shown anything but. They assumed that their men would be treated like saviours, and they went to war on the cheap, but all that has happened is that the soldiers doing to hard work are put in situations that allow this sort of crap to occur.

I'm surprised that you didn't say "Mission Accomplished".

If anything, now that they opened the can of worms, America should be expanding their Army, drafting people if they don't volunteer, and putting the economy on a war footing, which means rationing gas etc.

America could accomplish what you say, but they'll need at least half a million boots on the ground to do it. Trying to kep this fight cheap is laying American soldiers out to dry, but they'll do their best regardless.

There should be at least a full company maintained in every Iraqi town, constantly patrolling and setting up an informants network. what use are troops bunkered down in huge camps, conducting the odd foray into the countryside.

clear goals my arse....

[BHS]

The US has clear goals - to bring democracy to Iraq, to ensure that a democratic government has the tools to maintain law and order, and to establish good relations with the Iraqi government

Buddy, are you for real? Iraq is completely and totally a command failure at the top. The poor soldiers there have been put into the position they find themselves in as a result of lies and exaggerations. The real enemy is still in Afghanistan, or on the Afghan/Pakistani border. Don't come here trying to tell us there is some kind of coherency entwining planning and policy because the current political administration has shown anything but. They assumed that their men would be treated like saviours, and they went to war on the cheap, but all that has happened is that the soldiers doing to hard work are put in situations that allow this sort of crap to occur.

I'm surprised that you didn't say "Mission Accomplished".

If anything, now that they opened the can of worms, America should be expanding their Army, drafting people if they don't volunteer, and putting the economy on a war footing, which means rationing gas etc.

America could accomplish what you say, but they'll need at least half a million boots on the ground to do it. Trying to kep this fight cheap is laying American soldiers out to dry, but they'll do their best regardless.

There should be at least a full company maintained in every Iraqi town, constantly patrolling and setting up an informants network. what use are troops bunkered down in huge camps, conducting the odd foray into the countryside.

clear goals my arse....

Sorry, I was out committing some serial killings. What was that again?

[newbie]

The US has clear goals - to bring democracy to Iraq, to ensure that a democratic government has the tools to maintain law and order, and to establish good relations with the Iraqi government such that it is agreeable to hosting a long term rapid reaction force a la Germany and South Korea.ce between the two opposing sides between which you are so casual to assume a moral equivalency.

Wasn't the main goal to get Bin Laden, which turned into invading Iraq on a lie, which turned into overthrowing Saddam, which turned into finding and destroying Saddam's WMD....do you see a pattern here?

[BHS]

Wasn't the main goal to get Bin Laden, which turned into invading Iraq on a lie, which turned into overthrowing Saddam, which turned into finding and destroying Saddam's WMD....do you see a pattern here?

Um, no, I don't. See a pattern. What you've written more resembles a scattering of windblown leaves than a Japanese rock garden

For instance I thought, in your prefered meme, that the idea that Saddam having WMD was THE lie. So, to which lie are you refering in the phrase "...which turned into invading Iraq on a lie..."? Is there an even greater lie that precedes the WMD lie? What is it?

Also, invading Iraq included the goal of overthrowing Saddam all along, so I couldn't really say that invading Iraq "turned into" the overthrow as if it had never occurred to anyone until the project was already underway.

Let's call getting Bin Laden the "main goal" of The War on Terrorism Strategy Phase I (being the neutralization of Al Qaeda's HQ and infrastructure and Taliban support in Afghanistan).

Strategy Phase II is the establishment of a long term base of operations for a rapid reaction force in the centre of the Middle East, the region of the globe perceived to be the source of international terrorism. There was no such obvious "main goal" for Phase II, but one of the bigger goals was target selection. It was really easy to achieve this goal. As you've pointed out, the US administration (and the administration before it) already had the goal in mind of deposing Saddam. Congress actually passed a resolution in 1998 declaring it's intention to achieve regime change in Iraq. The US military had already undertaken the objective of containing Saddam and preventing him from re-arming. Also, Iraq is geographically central to the Middle East. An invasion aimed at producing a US-friendly democracy in Iraq amiable to the idea of a long-term US base on it's soil killed many birds with one stone.

Strategy Phase III is long-term, low intensity, and has no clear-cut goals. It's like the Cold War phase of the War on Terror. The general objectives are to prevent terror at home, to root out and destroy terrorist infrastructure abroad as needed, and to convince the other peoples and governments of the world that rejecting and eliminating terrorism is beneficial to everyone and that we need and want their co-operation.

[Temagami Scourge]

Newbie:

For instance I thought, in your prefered meme, that the idea that Saddam having WMD was THE lie. So, to which lie are you refering in the phrase "...which turned into invading Iraq on a lie..."? Is there an even greater lie that precedes the WMD lie? What is it ?

I thought you were pretty clear in what you were implying, so I'm at a loss for a reason why BHS missed the obvious. I think half the problem is that the Bush Administration has lied so often that even BHS needs clarification as to which lie is "the " lie.

"Let's call getting Bin Laden the "main goal" of The War on Terrorism Strategy Phase I (being the neutralization of Al Qaeda's HQ and infrastructure and Taliban support in Afghanistan )."

See...This is a lie. If you recall Newbie, we were told by the Bush Administration that Bin Laden would be brought to justice, not "neutralized". Neutralization is simply a euphemism for "we haven't got him."

The rest of BHS' post is basic information that you can get from websites like "Jane's Book of Military Tactics" or Time magazine. The rest BHS has to offer is a prescription for spending money.

From my perspective, one of the oldest military axioms is "Finish what you started". History is full of magnificent failures by people like Hitler and Napolean, whose shared penchant for creating a new front before finishing off another opponent led to both of their complete defeats. America won't be beaten in the same way Hitler and Napolean were because they could single-handedly take on the entire Arab world and win conventionally, but they will inevitably get to a point where they are nickel and dimed to death.

America shouldn't have turned it's back on Afghanistan and Bin Laden. Bush promised justice, and that's not happening; The U.S. should have invested serious coin into making Afghanistan a model of what a modern, secular Muslim Nation could be in order to show off to Afhanistan's neighbours...and they would have had the support of the world to do so. I'd support U.S. incursions into Pakistan, or some form of joint U.S./Pakistan operations in the Tribal area where Bin Laden is supposedly hiding out....I'm even certain that Saddam would have done something retarded in the interim and gave a more just cause for invasion, but we received the trumped-up version to take him on.

The bottom line? Young american soldiers have been and continue to be compromised by their political leadership. The amount of money the U.S. has spent on Iraq could have made every single Afghan a millionaire, had they chose to go that route.

[Johnny Utah]

Sadly the bodies of the two missing U.S. Soldiers were found, they were tortured and mutilated, there are rumors they were even beheaded. The MSM is trying to blame this on retaliation for the death of Zarqawi, facts are these Terrorists don't need a reason to do what they did..

It didn't take long for the MSM to use this tragedy attacking the Iraq War and Democrats to use it demanding Rumsfeld resign and to go for Murtha's cut&run option. God bless the Families of these Soldiers and God Bless the Family of Matt Maupin who is still missing..

[newbie]

deleted

[Melanie_]

The American military takes extraordinary measures to ensure that it's soldiers act within a strict code of conduct that involves no vendetta taking at all, and imposes severe punishments on soldiers who cross that line.

They have the opportunity to prove that in response to the massacre in Haditha.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2602069_pf.html

Strategy Phase II is the establishment of a long term base of operations for a rapid reaction force in the centre of the Middle East, the region of the globe perceived to be the source of international terrorism. There was no such obvious "main goal" for Phase II, but one of the bigger goals was target selection. It was really easy to achieve this goal. As you've pointed out, the US administration (and the administration before it) already had the goal in mind of deposing Saddam. Congress actually passed a resolution in 1998 declaring it's intention to achieve regime change in Iraq. The US military had already undertaken the objective of containing Saddam and preventing him from re-arming. Also, Iraq is geographically central to the Middle East. An invasion aimed at producing a US-friendly democracy in Iraq amiable to the idea of a long-term US base on it's soil killed many birds with one stone.

So what you are saying here is that the US invaded Iraq for its own gain in the middle east, not for any high minded ideals like freedom for the Iraqi people. Iraq was a convienient spot, with a leader the US didn't like anyway, so they were chosen for invasion to give Americans easier access to other countries perceived to be sources of terrorism. For this, those two soldiers were tortured and killed.

PS: You forgot to mention the easy access to oil that comes with a "US friendly democracy".

[Johnny Utah]

The American military takes extraordinary measures to ensure that it's soldiers act within a strict code of conduct that involves no vendetta taking at all, and imposes severe punishments on soldiers who cross that line.

They have the opportunity to prove that in response to the massacre in Haditha.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2602069_pf.html

It's an "Alleged Massacre" by U.S. Marines in Haditha as there hasn't been any charges filed against these Marines. Don't jump the gun like John Murtha who has already tried and covicted these Marines when no charges have been filed against them in the Haditha situation..

[Melanie_]

The American military takes extraordinary measures to ensure that it's soldiers act within a strict code of conduct that involves no vendetta taking at all, and imposes severe punishments on soldiers who cross that line.

They have the opportunity to prove that in response to the massacre in Haditha.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2602069_pf.html

It's an "Alleged Massacre" by U.S. Marines in Haditha. There hasn't been any charges filed against these Marines. Don't jump the gun like John Murtha who has already tried and covicted these Marines when no charges have been filed..

"Alleged massacre", I stand corrected. I will be waiting to hear the outcome of the investigation, and you are right, they are innocent until proven guilty.

[Johnny Utah]

The American military takes extraordinary measures to ensure that it's soldiers act within a strict code of conduct that involves no vendetta taking at all, and imposes severe punishments on soldiers who cross that line.

They have the opportunity to prove that in response to the massacre in Haditha.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2602069_pf.html

It's an "Alleged Massacre" by U.S. Marines in Haditha. There hasn't been any charges filed against these Marines. Don't jump the gun like John Murtha who has already tried and covicted these Marines when no charges have been filed..

"Alleged massacre", I stand corrected. I will be waiting to hear the outcome of the investigation, and you are right, they are innocent until proven guilty.

I wasn't accusing you of jumping the gun like Murtha I was only saying watch out you don't because it's easy to get caught up in the hype of jumping the gun when the MSM and Libs like Murtha have already tried and convicted these Marines..

[Shady]

which turned into invading Iraq on a lie

If America lied, then so did Britian, France, Germany, Russia, China, and the United Nations. All of which had intelligence involving Iraq with WMD. The debate was what to do about it, sanctions vs invasion. Don't re-write history. You're the only one that's lying.

I really wish the deaths of these soldiers was used in a different way from you people. Actually, not used at all. It's shameful.

[Black Dog]

If America lied, then so did Britian, France, Germany, Russia, China, and the United Nations. All of which had intelligence involving Iraq with WMD. The debate was what to do about it, sanctions vs invasion. Don't re-write history. You're the only one that's lying.

Er...not so much.

.S. Allies Were Not Persuaded By U.S. Assertions on Iraq WMD

For example, Russia was not convinced by either the September 24, 2002 British dossier or the October 4, 2002 CIA report. Lacking sufficient evidence, Russia dismissed the claims as a part of a "propaganda furor."2 Specifically targeting the CIA report, Putin said, "Fears are one thing, hard facts are another." He goes on to say, "Russia does not have in its possession any trustworthy data that supports the existence of nuclear weapons or any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and we have not received any such information from our partners yet. This fact has also been supported by the information sent by the CIA to the US Congress."3 However, Putin was apprehensive about the possibility that Iraq may have WMDs and he therefore supported inspections. The Russian ambassador to London thought that the dossier was a document of concern. "It is impressive, but not always…convincing."4

French intelligence services did not come up with the same alarming assessment of Iraq and WMD as did the Britain and the United States. "According to secret agents at the DGSE, Saddam's Iraq does not represent any kind of nuclear threat at this time…It [the French assessment] contradicts the CIA's analysis…"5 French spies said that the Iraqi nuclear threat claimed by the United States was a "phony threat."6

IOW the nations in question agreed that Iraq had failed to properly account for its weapons programs, thus leaving open the possibility that Iraq might retain some WMD. But there's a major difference between considering the possibility of WMD programs and the assurances of "imminent threats" and large stockpiles given by the U.S.

Let's call getting Bin Laden the "main goal" of The War on Terrorism Strategy Phase I (being the neutralization of Al Qaeda's HQ and infrastructure and Taliban support in Afghanistan).

Strategy Phase II is the establishment of a long term base of operations for a rapid reaction force in the centre of the Middle East, the region of the globe perceived to be the source of international terrorism. There was no such obvious "main goal" for Phase II, but one of the bigger goals was target selection. It was really easy to achieve this goal. As you've pointed out, the US administration (and the administration before it) already had the goal in mind of deposing Saddam. Congress actually passed a resolution in 1998 declaring it's intention to achieve regime change in Iraq. The US military had already undertaken the objective of containing Saddam and preventing him from re-arming. Also, Iraq is geographically central to the Middle East. An invasion aimed at producing a US-friendly democracy in Iraq amiable to the idea of a long-term US base on it's soil killed many birds with one stone.

Strategy Phase III is long-term, low intensity, and has no clear-cut goals. It's like the Cold War phase of the War on Terror. The general objectives are to prevent terror at home, to root out and destroy terrorist infrastructure abroad as needed, and to convince the other peoples and governments of the world that rejecting and eliminating terrorism is beneficial to everyone and that we need and want their co-operation.

Why am I reminded of the Underpants Gnomes?

The Underpants Gnomes have a three-step business plan, consisting of:

1. Collect underpants

2. ???

3. Profit!

Where none of the gnomes actually knows what the second step is, and all of them assume someone else within the organization does.

As for the subject of this thread: why are these two dead soldiers any bigger news than any other dead soldier?

[Temagami Scourge]

BD:

As for the subject of this thread: why are these two dead soldiers any bigger news than any other dead soldier?

?

Because they were miserably tortured in a deliberately fiendish manner, over a matter of days, whereas most of the soldiers usually KIA go quickly by IED. Their manner of death trancends any norms, and that may become an excuse to kill Iraqi's out-of-hand for many U.S. soldiers.

Sad as it is, Haditha all of a sudden isn't that bad since this situation occured.

[Black Dog]

Because they were miserably tortured in a deliberately fiendish manner, over a matter of days, whereas most of the soldiers usually KIA go quickly by IED. Their manner of death trancends any norms, and that may become an excuse to kill Iraqi's out-of-hand for many U.S. soldiers.

I'm not sure how many soldiers are killed instantly versus how many linger and die. Then there's all those who are maimed for life: arguably a fate in some ways worth than death. Really, though: capture tyorture and death would be occupational hazards in a place like Iraq.

Sad as it is, Haditha all of a sudden isn't that bad since this situation occured.

???

[Melanie_]

I really wish the deaths of these soldiers was used in a different way from you people. Actually, not used at all. It's shameful.

No one is using these soldiers deaths. This is a discussion forum - we discuss. There is no obligation to participate in any particular thread, so if you find this one distasteful there are many others that may be more to your liking.

Sad as it is, Haditha all of a sudden isn't that bad since this situation occured.

Give your head a shake.

As for the subject of this thread: why are these two dead soldiers any bigger news than any other dead soldier?

Actually, I started the thread because I looked at their pictures and was struck by the futility of it all. Their deaths aren't any more or less significant than that of any of the other 2500+ Americans, and who knows how many Iraqis, in this war.

[BubberMiley]

Then don't jump the gun on those guys in Gitmo either.

[killjoy]

As for the subject of this thread: why are these two dead soldiers any bigger news than any other dead soldier?

They were featured on the news more often.

.

[Johnny Utah]

CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Bodies of Missing U.S. Soldiers Found

Aired June 20, 2006

KING: Congresswoman Jane Harman on Capitol Hill, what's your read on these killings?

REP. JANE HARMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: Oh, tragic. Three families and 25 other families have suffered grievous losses. But we need to resolve now, Larry, to change our strategy in Iraq.

I would call it cut and win. I think we should be redeploying troops now on a schedule set by the generals, focusing on achievable political objectives.

And I should add one more thing. It's time to have regime change at the Defense Department. A new secretary of defense will help change our strategy, and then we will win and honor those deaths and honor the people who still serve and honor our country.

Link

On Larry King Live Rep. Harman(D) used this tragedy to take shots at Rumsfeld and the Bush Administration. That night wasn't a time for politics but of course Rep. Harman(D) couldn't resist..

[PolyNewbie]

The US has clear goals - to bring democracy to Iraq, to ensure that a democratic government has the tools to maintain law and order

Yeah, are you for real ? The USA wants to bring the central banks and their currencies to Iraq.

A Rogue nation is simply one that is not under the control of the central bankers. Its that simple. A Western "democracy" is one that is under control by central bankers & their fiat currencies. We get war, income tax and inflation as a result.

Its why they will go to war with N. Korea and Venezuela as well. These leaders refuse to sell out to the central bankers.

The world doesn't run on religion. It runs on the dollar.