blackbird Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 (edited) In New Brunswick hospital patients who are in need of proper health care are being placed in an ambulance bay where there are no proper washroom facilities or running water which is a requirement for proper nursing and hygiene. This is being done while there are 500 vacant beds in nursing homes in the province. This is a shameful failure of the public health care system and of the political leadership in the province. It just proves clearly that politicians and their appointed bureaucrats who are supposed to be taking care of the health care system should never be in that position. They are incompetent and unqualified to do the job. They have no motivation or incentive to do the job properly. That have fat incomes and guaranteed generous pensions. This is a key reason why a strictly public health care system is a failure. Failure is just built into the modus operandi of polticians and the bureacracy. This is what might be called institutionalized corruption. Hundreds of beds empty in special care homes while hospital patients kept in ambulance bay This is only a tiny fraction of the failures of the health care system across Canada. We know thousands of patients are dying on waiting lists and millions do not even have a family doctor while emergency rooms are closing periodically in many places. Compare our failing system with the reported health care system in China. quote Highly efficient China's healthcare system is highly efficient, with the country achieving a remarkable level of healthcare efficiency. In 2022, China was the only country to reach zero inefficiency, meaning it maximized its healthcare spending to deliver the best possible health outcomes based on its level of investment. This efficiency is a result of several factors, including high vaccination rates, widespread use of prenatal care, low government corruption, and a larger share of health spending coming from public sources rather than private. The system's efficiency is a testament to China's commitment to improving health outcomes while controlling costs, offering an example for other countries seeking to enhance their health systems. Forbes unquote In China, if some politician or bureaucrat were found to be failing the citizens, he might immediately get fired and replaced with someone who will do the job properly and quickly. Edited January 19 by blackbird Quote
blackbird Posted January 19 Author Report Posted January 19 In British Columbia, what strong actions has Premier Eby or the Minister of Health taken to alleviate the huge shortage of doctors and eliminate the waiting lists in the past five years for example? What have they done to stop the ER closures in various communities across the province? Nothing obviously. They should be fired. Quote
herbie Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 Gee, read a newspaper and see. And continue to delude yourself that any govt can make things happern overnight. While you're at it, dive up your constant demand we go to a pay system like the USA. No one's listening, you're the oddball. Quote
eyeball Posted January 19 Report Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, herbie said: While you're at it, dive up your constant demand we go to a pay system like the USA. No one's listening, you're the oddball. He does seem to be edging closer to embracing socialism and even talking about the need for more money. He's on a roll, before you know it he'll be suggesting we s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶ raise taxes to make public healthcare better. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
blackbird Posted January 20 Author Report Posted January 20 9 hours ago, eyeball said: He does seem to be edging closer to embracing socialism and even talking about the need for more money. He's on a roll, before you know it he'll be suggesting we s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶ raise taxes to make public healthcare better. Goodness, fixing the failing health care system would be terrible according to you, right? Only more money, a lot more, might fix it. Would have to fire some people though. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 (edited) A topic that I have been posting about on this board, for decades. Some points: - You can't say forever that we are better than the US, in the face of the decline of our system and our system HAS declined - It's possible to reform a system without destroying it or redesigning it completely, and people should be open to other approaches including two-tier which is a feature of other nationalized systems - When dealing with a system it's better to focus on fixing rather than blaming. The system itself is not fully accountable, I know this personally, however it's also not a 'customer system' so that's understandable. The overall focus should be put on the patient, though. - Big changes take a long time, but immediate fixes should start now and be easy to track. - The one system that tracks healthcare performance was put in by Harper - Canadian Institute for Healthcare Information https://www.cihi.ca/en Nobody pays attention to it, and almost no one has heard of it - Without a public that can track metrics and numbers in a dry and mature manner, we are left to the drama and passions of an emotional healthcare debate. But it's a system. The government and public should track improvements without political arguments, ie. how do we improve care with the best value ? Period. - Governments have had this problem on their dockets for over 30 years and the results are not satisfactory Added: "Fire everyone, fire the unions, fire fire fire..." isn't a sound approach. The fact that the system needs repair does not mean everyone involved is incompetent. Edited January 20 by Michael Hardner Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
blackbird Posted January 20 Author Report Posted January 20 21 hours ago, eyeball said: He does seem to be edging closer to embracing socialism and even talking about the need for more money. He's on a roll, before you know it he'll be suggesting we s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶m̶o̶n̶e̶y̶ raise taxes to make public healthcare better. Here's the way I see it. A democratic system such as ours is not the proper system to deliver a socialized or public health care system. Trying to mix western democracy and Socialism is like trying to mix oil and water. It just doesn't work. The proof is there. A Socialized health care system requires a government that is not pulled in every direction on spending. It is incapable of delivering adequate health care with that system. Politicians who gain power in our system are under tremendous pressure to spend where the biggest demands are or a variety of demands. That means health care will not be the top priority. It is just the result of the structure. Elections are always a popularity contest and not on delivering an excellent health care system which might require a large percentage of the budget. That is the sad truth. That is why a totally Socialized or total public system will never work. Quote
blackbird Posted January 20 Author Report Posted January 20 6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Governments have had this problem on their dockets for over 30 years and the results are not satisfactory Added: "Fire everyone, fire the unions, fire fire fire..." isn't a sound approach. The fact that the system needs repair does not mean everyone involved is incompetent. You believe the existing system can somehow be fixed. Canada and the provinces have had decades to "fix" the health care system and have not done so. That should be enough proof that the system does not allow it be fixed. On my above post I explained why I see the existing health care system as unrepairable. I believe the democratic system we have does not allow a public health care system to succeed. There are many competing interests and the people in charge are under pressure to do everything, not just provide health care. So it is an impossible situation. Maybe you came from a background of being a public servant and somehow believe that government can do anything. I don't believe it can. We have had decades of seeing the public health care system go downhill. I do not see any solution to save the public health care system. We are already at the point where it is costing thousands of Canadians their lives. It is an enemy within. Quote
John Stone Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 More than two-thirds of Canadian adults aged 18 to 79 are considered overweight. The health of the next generation will likely be influenced by the health behaviour of the current generation. Likely diet, lack of exercise and complacent attitudes have some effect on the ever increasing demands placed on health care. diabetes, cancer, heart disease, stroke ....etc, etc, are all linked to obesity. Quote
eyeball Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 12 hours ago, blackbird said: Goodness, fixing the failing health care system would be terrible according to you, right? Are you nuts? Fixing it would be great, why on Earth would anyone think otherwise? Spite maybe but I need my nose like anyone else. 12 hours ago, blackbird said: Only more money, a lot more, might fix it. Would have to fire some people though. We definitely need to hire more people to address the shortage doctors and nurses so, that means more money. Capice? There are 13,000 internationally trained physicians and tens of thousands of internationally educated nurses currently living in Canada who are being prevented from working in their profession due to certification, licensing, and integration barriers. Instead they're driving Uber cars, flipping burgers and thinking about moving to another country. I suggest we fire most of the people who are doing the certifying, licensing and maintaining the integration barriers. Starting yesterday. 1 Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 1 hour ago, blackbird said: That is why a totally Socialized or total public system will never work. Okay. There's still no reason to not make the private portion as universal as the public - I.E. no queue jumping, especially over people with life threatening conditions. In the meantime some 30% of Canada's health services are already privately funded. 1 Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 56 minutes ago, blackbird said: 1. You believe the existing system can somehow be fixed. Canada and the provinces have had decades to "fix" the health care system and have not done so. That should be enough proof that the system does not allow it be fixed. 2. On my above post I explained why I see the existing health care system as unrepairable. 3. I believe the democratic system we have does not allow a public health care system to succeed. There are many competing interests and the people in charge are under pressure to do everything, not just provide health care. So it is an impossible situation. 4. Maybe you came from a background of being a public servant and somehow believe that government can do anything. I don't believe it can. 5. We have had decades of seeing the public health care system go downhill. I do not see any solution to save the public health care system. We are already at the point where it is costing thousands of Canadians their lives. It is an enemy within. 1. It's not proof that it can't be fixed. It's something but it's not proof. 2. Your post makes some points, but it's very general and not specific. You cite an error then go on to say there's no incentive for people to do a good job, presumably because they can't be fired ? Is that it ? Can't we just fix the system, then, by allowing bureaucrats to be fired ? I don't exactly disagree with you, but we need to go a bit deeper as it's a complicated problem. 3. Interesting take but.. it worked in the past right? It works elsewhere right ? What is it about the Canadian approach that leads to failure ? Honest question. 4. Far from it. I'm in management and have been for decades. What I do know is that there is zero public appreciation for what represents good vs bad management. I do think the government does some things well but healthcare is beyond the point of saying it's well run, if only based on the level of complaints. We can't just say "healthcare is poorly run because the government can't do it"... without an engaged public you will end up with a private system with all the same problems, and more expenseive. 5. What have we tried ? If the answer is 'nothing' then why is that ? I heartily agree we need change. I have ideas also Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 10 minutes ago, eyeball said: 1. I.E. no queue jumping, especially over people with life threatening conditions. 2. In the meantime some 30% of Canada's health services are already privately funded. 1. how about ONLY for people with life threatening conditions ? And if we are charging for the top tier, why don't we make that conditional on wait times being significantly reduced on the bottom tear. 2. yes... like MRIs Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 Although China is making dramatic strides in medical technology, I would require independent corroboration of any claim made by that country about its health care system. There have been ‘issues’. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Although China is making dramatic strides in medical technology, I would require independent corroboration of any claim made by that country about its health care system. There have been ‘issues’. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China Also independent corroboration of ANYTHING Falun Gong says. They aren't reliable. But also - GOOD LUCK. China puts a tight lock on anything regarding internal affairs, evidenced by the Covid breakout reaction... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that we need an expanded private care system in Canada. Our ERs are being choked by people who should be seen by GPs. Only the acutely ill should have to show up there for care. While on holiday in Europe last year, I walked into a private clinic and got a full allergy screen which diagnosed a dust mite problem I’d had for decades. Lord knows how long it would have taken to arrange an appointment here. In my province all our dermatologists are in the capital, necessitating what is in winter a dangerous drive of many hours for fifteen minutes with a doctor about a rash. In the UK GPs take a one year diploma in dermatology to do much of this work. On IMG (foreign grad) licensure, we need to fast-track this. I’ve seen utterly ridiculous decisions made about how much training foreign grads require, eg, a cardiologist lecturing in the UK was told he needed 3 1/2 years more training to become a basic internist. UK trained surgeons and anesthesiologists will often have 10-15 years of training already when they come to Canada compared to the 4-5 required here and yet they struggle to become eligible to sit the exams. The assessment system simply isn’t fit for purpose. Poilievre had some proposals to improve this. It’s at least one area I largely agree with him on. 14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Also independent corroboration of ANYTHING Falun Gong says. They aren't reliable. But also - GOOD LUCK. China puts a tight lock on anything regarding internal affairs, evidenced by the Covid breakout reaction... On this matter, there’s a massive unexplained surplus of organs for transplant in China. We don’t have to rely on what Falun Gong say. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
eyeball Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. how about ONLY for people with life threatening conditions ? And if we are charging for the top tier, why don't we make that conditional on wait times being significantly reduced on the bottom tear. 2. yes... like MRIs People with life-threatening conditions, no matter who they are, should be at or as close to the front of the line as possible. I'm open to conditions for non life threatened top tier people unless they insist on having their cake and eating it too - that is if they expect quicker access while continuing to whine and influence and lobby the government to provide even greater opportunities to protect their wealth. If so fok em. Get in line like everyone else. I can't stomach the sense of entitled access wealthy people have when it comes to health care - it's not surprising they have it I guess given the comfortable position at the front of the line they enjoy when it comes to accessing politicians. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: On this matter, there’s a massive unexplained surplus of organs for transplant in China. We don’t have to rely on what Falun Gong say. $10 says access to these organs has a lot less to do with universality and a lot more to do with your ability to influence a bureaucrat or public official. I can see how power and wealth go together like peas and carrots here to know they go together well everywhere else too. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 17 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: 1. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that we need an expanded private care system in Canada. Our ERs are being choked by people who should be seen by GPs. Only the acutely ill should have to show up there for care. While on holiday in Europe last year, I walked into a private clinic and got a full allergy screen which diagnosed a dust mite problem I’d had for decades. Lord knows how long it would have taken to arrange an appointment here. In my province all our dermatologists are in the capital, necessitating what is in winter a dangerous drive of many hours for fifteen minutes with a doctor about a rash. In the UK GPs take a one year diploma in dermatology to do much of this work. 2. On IMG (foreign grad) licensure, we need to fast-track this. I’ve seen utterly ridiculous decisions made about how much training foreign grads require, eg, a cardiologist lecturing in the UK was told he needed 3 1/2 years more training to become a basic internist. UK trained surgeons and anesthesiologists will often have 10-15 years of training already when they come to Canada compared to the 4-5 required here and yet they struggle to become eligible to sit the exams. The assessment system simply isn’t fit for purpose. Poilievre had some proposals to improve this. It’s at least one area I largely agree with him on. 3. On this matter, there’s a massive unexplained surplus of organs for transplant in China. We don’t have to rely on what Falun Gong say. 1. Agreed 2. We also have been hearing about this problem for decades. 3. Ok... so... what would cause that ? They could easily make it mandatory to donate organs. So ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 14 minutes ago, eyeball said: 1. People with life-threatening conditions, no matter who they are, should be at or as close to the front of the line as possible. 2. I'm open to conditions for non life threatened top tier people unless they insist on having their cake and eating it too - that is if they expect quicker access while continuing to whine and influence and lobby the government to provide even greater opportunities to protect their wealth. If so fok em. Get in line like everyone else. 3. I can't stomach the sense of entitled access wealthy people have when it comes to health care - it's not surprising they have it I guess given the comfortable position at the front of the line they enjoy when it comes to accessing politicians. 1. Of course. Obvious. 2. Knee replacements take forever now. If we charge people to go faster, then that money should go to improving wait times for everyone. 3. If you had a TINY wait time, but the wealthy paid to go immediately - how would that make you feel ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
eyeball Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 2. Knee replacements take forever now. If we charge people to go faster, then that money should go to improving wait times for everyone. 3. If you had a TINY wait time, but the wealthy paid to go immediately - how would that make you feel ? 2. I'd rather we do something about the lack of doctors and nurses due to licensing and certification bottlenecks first...immediately in fact. 3. Like a 2nd class citizen. The health system needs more than just money it needs leadership with a better sense of its duty. To paraphrase William Wallace "There's a difference between us. Wealthy people think the government of this country exists to ensure they're always first in line. I think it exists to ensure that line is shortened or erased altogether." What little sense of noblesse oblige there is left is nothing compared to the absent obligations of governments. Here's Braveheart's original quote "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it." Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Agreed 2. We also have been hearing about this problem for decades. 3. Ok... so... what would cause that ? They could easily make it mandatory to donate organs. So ? 2. All the more reason to sort it out. We’ve got to get over ourselves and the way we assess foreign training. Assess doctors on their individual skills, not on their country of origin, 3. Harvesting organs without consent would cause that. Edited January 20 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Michael Hardner Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 Just now, eyeball said: 1. I'd rather we do something about the lack of doctors and nurses due to licensing and certification bottlenecks first...immediately in fact. 2. Like a 2nd class citizen. 3. The health system needs more than just money it needs leadership with a better sense of its duty. 4. To paraphrase William Wallace "There's a difference between us. Wealthy people think the government of this country exists to ensure they're always first in line. I think it exists to ensure that line is shortened or erased altogether." 5. What little sense of noblesse oblige there is left is nothing compared to the absent obligations of governments. 6. Here's Braveheart's original quote "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it." 1. Well sure but you can drink water and pee at the same time also. 2. With a great knee, fixed in no time at all. 3. It needs a public, and some attention to the issues so something gets done instead of a cloud of gloom. There are plenty of nerds out there with eyes and keyboards to help keep a public eye on wait times and costs. I can see wait times as a hot topic in local FB groups now. 4. We need to accept that the wealthy exist, too. Our wealthies are Canadian wealthies. We can't ignore them or demonize them to solve a bigger problem. France is pretty socialist and they have two-tier, 1st class subway cars too when I lived there. 5. Even Marx said that the state would wither away at some point. 6. Maybe but I'm leery of noble Hollywood propaganda... I want a Feudal system... the Lords sit on their @sses until the Vikings come, then they go defend us 4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: 1. All the more reason to sort it out. We’ve got to get over ourselves and the way we assess foreign training. Assess doctors on their individual skills, not on their country of origin, 2. Harvesting organs without consent would cause that. 1. Pretty clear that we need a new framework and that to me would have to include the public sphere, feedback, oversight, governance, and probably funding at some point down the road. 2. Ok, I have never heard of that but my take is.... as long as I have a face and a body akin to my living one then scalpel me up... I'm not going to need my liver, Luigi can have it Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 (edited) The UK has one physician licensing body, the GMC, for 65 million people and four ‘provinces’ (three of whom call themselves countries) while providing at least as good a service as our system of 13 such bodies. One fear in going to one college would be a big rush by doctors to Ontario and BC. I hope reform along Poilievre’s proposed lines isn’t forgotten in the current megacrisis. He made some good points. Edited January 20 by SpankyMcFarland 1 Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
eyeball Posted January 20 Report Posted January 20 1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Well sure but you can drink water and pee at the same time also. 2. With a great knee, fixed in no time at all. 3. It needs a public, and some attention to the issues so something gets done instead of a cloud of gloom. There are plenty of nerds out there with eyes and keyboards to help keep a public eye on wait times and costs. I can see wait times as a hot topic in local FB groups now. 4. We need to accept that the wealthy exist, too. Our wealthies are Canadian wealthies. We can't ignore them or demonize them to solve a bigger problem. France is pretty socialist and they have two-tier, 1st class subway cars too when I lived there. 5. Even Marx said that the state would wither away at some point. 6. Maybe but I'm leery of noble Hollywood propaganda... I want a Feudal system... the Lords sit on their @sses until the Vikings come, then they go defend us 1. While patting my head and rubbing my tummy. Can't everyone? 2. I thought you said I'd have to wait but I get it I've heard that before. It won't change how I feel though and I want that to be closer to top of mind of the system's administrators. 3. Good, I've definitely learned that being proactive when it comes to the health system helps. 4. The measure of any system's success is the buy-in it generates. I'm not interested in breaking things that work. 5. So did Plato. 6. I'd probably be with the Vikings - they had some pretty cool boats. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
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