Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

so don't try to pull this "false" crap. you go to Rev can's site and show us your proof.
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/govt02a.htm
Most of the economic activity in Canada is based on services provided in the big cities.

Riv, Buddy ol' Pal...if you are using the statcan site as a source of "reliable" data, than you're really stretching your rubber arm and the one leg your standing on is looking kinda wobbly.

I know you can do better than that. Have you tried looking for info in the Department of Caucasian Affairs?

Temagami Scourge · June 21, 2006

Happy National Aboriginal Day!

Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe · June 21, 2006

Thank You

Hope everybody has a Safe and Happy Solidarity Day!!

Happy National Aboriginal Day!

scribblet · June 21, 2006

Now I hear somebody's threatening to block train tracks. Anybody heard about this? Is this true?

There is mention of more aggressive tactics here. If they are successful at getting away with violent and illegal blockades it will embolden them to step them up. They are losing a lot of good will over this and any more attempts will erode that further.

It is time the gov't stepped in and took a firm stand against violence and agression, and stop the double standards.

http://tinyurl.com/l6r6l (Toronto Star)

CALEDONIA—As the dust settles around the site of a native standoff in Caledonia, a troubling picture is emerging of how the community descended into near anarchy under the watch of the Ontario Provincial Police and could be poised to slip even further.

Rumblings that Six Nations members are prepared to use aggressive tactics to claim more land along the Grand River are growing louder, and some townspeople say they've lost faith that the police will protect them — and their land — if protestors stage more uprisings.

Since native protestors began occupying the Douglas Creek Estates development in February, police have been widely accused of turning a blind eye to lawbreakers, including those who dug up portions of the highway with a backhoe, lit tire fires and blocked the road.

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

"At what point does it become politically impossible to pay it?" Mr.Williams said.

This is why the specifics of signed aboriginal treaties are irrelevant and why the only path forward is a political solution that is fair to both the natives _and_ the majority in the country that had nothing to do with the injustices in the past.

This is why I made the the point that the legalities are irrelevant because the gov't can change the law if necessary. This is why it is a mistake for natives to presume they can demand anything they want simply because the 'law is (currently) on their side'.

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

"At what point does it become politically impossible to pay it?" Mr.Williams said.
This is why the specifics of signed aboriginal treaties are irrelevant and why the only path forward is a political solution that is fair to both the natives _and_ the majority in the country that had nothing to do with the injustices in the past.
This is why I made the the point that the legalities are irrelevant because the gov't can change the law if necessary. This is why it is a mistake for natives to presume they can demand anything they want simply because the 'law is (currently) on their side'.

What exactly is the MAJORITY in this country? the caucasians? the immigrants? The bottom line is there are outstanding balances owed by the government...NOT the taxpayers. Don't carry all the burden on your shoulders Riv. You keep mentioning "FAIR" for both sides then present some ideal suggestions then! Cause Frankly, I don't think sticking our heads in the sands is gonna make us forget that the government ROYALLY F***ED US OVER..all Native Nations...and is CONTINUING to do so, even with current Land titles....They want the resources from within our lands but will not profit share, but I'm sure you and your enlightened self knew this.

The classic case of the greedy white man is a legal issue because they are breaking their own laws and we are merely indentifying it and making a stand. Don't be jealous because you don't have a claim, perhaps if your ancestors ALL went to war for OUR country (repeatedly) sacrificed a few customs, and a few generations then MAYBE, just MAYBE you'd have a legitimate ground for denouncing the accountability that is due to the Native people's of this country. We have an investment to protect.

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

If you want the laws to be changed in favour of the governments mismanaged funds and inability to honour respectable business agreements, then you are simply asking for riots and quite possibly Civil War. You may as well run around and burn all the money you can get your hands on. Something like this will impact our economy with merciless force. You conveniently keep forgetting our population stats. WE ARE THE FASTEST GROWING POPULATION in the country and your ignorance is breeding generations of racism. Kindly refrain from implying that we are not strong components and contributors to this rich country.

If you were to cancel all the treaties and say " SORRY, wasn't us" you can bet your pink bottom that the entire country will create Mayhem, unless you have failed to learn anything of our people in the last 30 years or so. We are getting stronger, bigger and MUCH faster than anyone else. Your " majority" is dying off. In fact, it will be OUR people that will be your health attendants pushing your wheelchairs and counting your money. Pretty picture aint it?

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

What exactly is the MAJORITY in this country? the caucasians? the immigrants? The bottom line is there are outstanding balances owed by the government...NOT the taxpayers.

Government money does not fall like mana from the sky - it has to come from the taxpayers. Every penny that is paid out in native land claims must be taken from non-native taxpayers.

You keep mentioning "FAIR" for both sides then present some ideal suggestions then!

Large but financially responsible cash settlements paid to native bands which would be re-organized corporations. Individual band members would be shareholders in these private corporations and would have the sole right to determine who can hold shares and receive benefits. These corporations would be free to use the cash settlement to buy land on the free market and do anything else that a private corporation is entitled to do (like pay out dividends to its owners).

These corporations and individual natives will pay tax on future income like any other Canadian. They would also be subject to any municipal, provincial and federal laws that apply to land that they own. If the corporations fail because of mismanagement or corruption then the band is SOL - no more coming back to the non-native taxpayers for bail outs.

Don't be jealous because you don't have a claim, perhaps if your ancestors ALL went to war for OUR country

Who your ancestors are means nothing. A Canadian who arrived yesterday from China is equal in every way to a Canadian whose family has lived here for 100s or even 1000s of years. This is a very important priniciple that you want to conveniently forget.

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

We are getting stronger, bigger and MUCH faster than anyone else. Your " majority" is dying off. In fact, it will be OUR people that will be your health attendants pushing your wheelchairs and counting your money. Pretty picture aint it?

My family has a couple native branches: one branch is quite successful and is reproducing at the same rate as any one else. The other branch is reproducing like rabbits but each generation is severely brain damaged due to excessive alcohol and drug use by the mothers during pregnancy. The amoung the great-grandchildren the number of FAS native kids outnumbers the number of normal native kids. So yes, I agree it ain't a pretty picture.

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

Government money does not fall like mana from the sky - it has to come from the taxpayers. Every penny that is paid out in native land claims must be taken from non-native taxpayers.

NATIVES PAY TAXES! Many of our Nations do not have treaty benefits and contribute just as other citizens of this country!

Who your ancestors are means nothing. A Canadian who arrived yesterday from China is equal in every way to a Canadian whose family has lived here for 100s or even 1000s of years. This is a very important priniciple that you want to conveniently forget.

A good start to equalization then would be to take back all the land that was given to (non-natives) that fought for the country. If we don't get what we were promised, then why should they?

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

IS THAT the best you got Riv? HAHAHA. Keep stretching that rubber arm ol' boy! Your extended families condition does not set precedence for the health of our future. Heck, a majority of the "caucasian" people I know are chronic drunks and closet cokeheads, I can only imagine what the mental state of these children will be, given they lack authentic identity and have a DNA history of white collar crime and racist righteousness.

Saying a majority of our children are FAS is like saying a majority of all white people are all inbred.

Temagami Scourge · June 21, 2006

Native Charm:

Heck, a majority of the "caucasian" people I know are chronic drunks and closet cokeheads, I can only imagine what the mental state of these children will be, given they lack authentic identity and have a DNA history of white collar crime and racist righteousness.

Cripes, you need look no farther than Caledonia on any given night to see the impact drink has had on Caucasian youth in this country. They contnue to prove themselves to be brutish and law brealing...even moreso than the Natives, who do little more than shout insults back. Also, since the "camera" fight, the native side has been quiet, and yet it is the Caledonia side that continues to be provocative.

too bad the mainstream media is putting the spin on. We never hear how poorly Caledonians are acting.

But what the heck...this is Canada and things haven't changed much.

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

Karl Walsh, president of the Ontario Provincial Police Association, says OPP Commissioner Gwen Boniface should be "forced to answer" for her management of the OPP response to the reclamation -- a situation he characterized as "anarchy". In the ongoing distortion of the peaceful nature of the reclamation, press and non-indigenous Caledonia residents continue to whip up fear about violence, saying that there are rumours that "Six Nations members are prepared to use aggressive tactics to claim more land along the Grand River" and that non-indigenous people cannot rely on police for "protection".

geoffrey · June 21, 2006

A good start to equalization then would be to take back all the land that was given to (non-natives) that fought for the country. If we don't get what we were promised, then why should they?

Any examples?

I think it's humorous for anyone to claim that the government owes Indian groups for mismanagment of funds. The Indian chiefs still are opposed to having their books open to the Auditor General. Not suprising when we fund $10k per Indian and have no results, that money is going somewhere. Our money is going somewhere, and I figure it's those chiefs we have driving the nice pickups and living in amazing ranch homes... sad situation. The common status Indian should be very upset with the way their governments manage their moola.

NativeCharm · June 21, 2006

A good start to equalization then would be to take back all the land that was given to (non-natives) that fought for the country. If we don't get what we were promised, then why should they?

Any examples?

I think it's humorous for anyone to claim that the government owes Indian groups for mismanagment of funds. The Indian chiefs still are opposed to having their books open to the Auditor General. Not suprising when we fund $10k per Indian and have no results, that money is going somewhere. Our money is going somewhere, and I figure it's those chiefs we have driving the nice pickups and living in amazing ranch homes... sad situation. The common status Indian should be very upset with the way their governments manage their moola.

Wow!

What's more humorous is that Caledonia residents are now on Gov't welfare.

I'd sure like to know how "OUR" tax dollars are gonna go to good use on that one. So, if the gov't is giving Caldeonia 1 cool mill, what does that equate to per head? hmmm. We better have some results on that one!

geoffrey · June 22, 2006

They shouldn't be on welfare, they should be suing the confederacy for their illegal protest that caused them financial hardship. Someone has to be held to account for the illegal nature of their protest. If I protested illegally and caused a business hardship, I'd be responsible. Why aren't the Indians of Caledonia?

NativeCharm · June 22, 2006

They shouldn't be on welfare, they should be suing the confederacy for their illegal protest that caused them financial hardship. Someone has to be held to account for the illegal nature of their protest. If I protested illegally and caused a business hardship, I'd be responsible. Why aren't the Indians of Caledonia?

LMFAO BUDDY! Sober up and straighten out. The Caledonian residents have been paying taxes to the wrong people, thats all. If you want accountability, take a number and get to the back of the line! After you're done standing in line for a couple hundred years, write the government and see if you can get your money back, before you get evicted...LMAO.

Canuck E Stan · June 22, 2006

Any examples?
I think it's humorous for anyone to claim that the government owes Indian groups for mismanagment of funds. The Indian chiefs still are opposed to having their books open to the Auditor General. Not suprising when we fund $10k per Indian and have no results, that money is going somewhere. Our money is going somewhere, and I figure it's those chiefs we have driving the nice pickups and living in amazing ranch homes... sad situation. The common status Indian should be very upset with the way their governments manage their moola.

I seen this question being asked a number of times without a reply,is this question difficult to answer or is it a truth that is in denial.

The $10-billion question

Why, no matter who's in charge, does nothing ever get better for aboriginals?

Eighty per cent of the money the federal Department of Indian Affairs spends on aboriginals is transferred not to individuals, but to native bands where it is then disbursed through local chiefs and band councils.

So what's the answer?

Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe · June 22, 2006

That 1 Million was the THIRD installment of monies given to the town.

"This brings our government's support for the local business community to
more than $1.7 million," said Trade Minister Joe Cordiano

link to previous post of mine --->

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....ndpost&p=118017

geoffrey · June 22, 2006

So where is the money? All that money spent on first immigrants, on a completely racial basis, where is it? I don't see major shopping centres, or even the world's largest sweat lodge.

If we are going to have an Indian Act (which we shouldn't), we need to do it differently. Firstly, I don't blame you guys defending your free handouts, I probably would be hesitant to complain if someone was paying my way through university for me, or if I had to be picked first for RCMP or any public service applications. Doesn't make it right, it's not, it's racist. But since cutting off the racist based policies in Canada is apparently a no-no, we should give the $10k per Indian to each Indian and then have the bands tax them. Creates an accountability.

Is there even any status Indian folks that disagree with that method? If so, why?

Canuck E Stan · June 22, 2006

I seen this question being asked a number of times without a reply,is this question difficult to answer or is it a truth that is in denial.
The $10-billion question

Why, no matter who's in charge, does nothing ever get better for aboriginals?

Eighty per cent of the money the federal Department of Indian Affairs spends on aboriginals is transferred not to individuals, but to native bands where it is then disbursed through local chiefs and band councils.

So what's the answer?

80% of$10,000,000,000.00 =$8,000,000,000.00

Question.......Where did it all go? Answer?????????????

NativeCharm · June 22, 2006

80% of$10,000,000,000.00 =$8,000,000,000.00

Question.......Where did it all go? Answer?????????????

It is a difficult question to answer indeed, just as difficult as it is start looking at our national government for accountability. Furthermore, a large percentage of these alleged amounts have yet to be received by communities. In fact, our ENTIRE COUNTRY is under financial scrutiny and only small minds are able to look no further than their own nose.

If the Canadian government takes responsibility for their financial actions, it may clarify their "spending" and "hand outs" ~whether it be for the Natives, the "caucasians" or the "immigrants".

As well it should be known that many bands, nations, townships and municipalities do not receive their following fiscal funds, until proper reports are filed and audits are done. By the time funds get from government down to the people, it passes through a dozen government offices, that all get their "administration" fee's and the sums end up being significantly smaller than the "average" citizen assumes. SO, it is with confidence that I say I'm sure there is documentation somewhere in the governments tickle trunk of "financial affairs", WHERE exactly the money goes. If you think that the $10 bill question is up to the Natives to answer, then you're barking up the wrong tree...again.

Heck... we can't even find out how much they paid off Henco for!

Comparing apples to oranges is doing nothing for either side of the fence.

gc1765 · June 22, 2006

I think it's humorous for anyone to claim that the government owes Indian groups for mismanagment of funds. The Indian chiefs still are opposed to having their books open to the Auditor General. Not suprising when we fund $10k per Indian and have no results, that money is going somewhere. Our money is going somewhere, and I figure it's those chiefs we have driving the nice pickups and living in amazing ranch homes... sad situation. The common status Indian should be very upset with the way their governments manage their moola.

Actually, I think you are quite right here. The money goes to the chiefs, which may give it to the entire band, but sometimes a lot of it is kept. This is a serious problem, but nobody seems to have a solution. Any thoughts as to prevent this from happening? As far as I know the money is related to the treaties so they have to pay the chiefs, and since natives want self-government they don't want the government to tell them how they spend their money. It is unfortunate and I wish there was a solution where all members of a band can benefit from the money and not just the chiefs.

Temagami Scourge · June 22, 2006

I still think the main point is that the government bends over backwards for Caledonians by handing out large sums to homeowners for their "troubles" i.e. listening to people insult each other at night; after only a hundred days, and yet the Crown waits over 50 years to give those few Aboriginal survivors of residential school approximately $7500 each on average for suffering rape, physical beatings and all manner of abuse.

To many of us...it certainly pays to be Caucasian in this country. You get a tiny bit inconvenienced and you get a cool million, whereas we Indians have to wait to get raped and beaten to get less than ten grand....if we make it past the serial killers and pig farmers.

Oh Canada.

NativeCharm · June 22, 2006

I think it's humorous for anyone to claim that the government owes Indian groups for mismanagment of funds. The Indian chiefs still are opposed to having their books open to the Auditor General. Not suprising when we fund $10k per Indian and have no results, that money is going somewhere. Our money is going somewhere, and I figure it's those chiefs we have driving the nice pickups and living in amazing ranch homes... sad situation. The common status Indian should be very upset with the way their governments manage their moola.

Actually, I think you are quite right here. The money goes to the chiefs, which may give it to the entire band, but sometimes a lot of it is kept. This is a serious problem, but nobody seems to have a solution. Any thoughts as to prevent this from happening? As far as I know the money is related to the treaties so they have to pay the chiefs, and since natives want self-government they don't want the government to tell them how they spend their money. It is unfortunate and I wish there was a solution where all members of a band can benefit from the money and not just the chiefs.

I agree that we MUST have accountability, but it's also a fact that cheques are not made payable to "Chief So & SO", it's made payble to that band, town etc etc. Spending money is usually voted by a council and cheques require more than one signator. So it's not fair to say that the chiefs are the root of all Native financial evils.