Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[NativeCharm]

Well, I'm new to this forum but I am no stranger to the "Native Wars on Government Terrorism". Nor am I unaffected by the generations of genocide caused by the Queen, the settlers and the current people of power.

It disgusts me that these uneducated half wits in this forum(You're taking up space! ) keep rambling on about the Natives and their racial treatment.

The only benefit I ( and many, MANY others) have had for being Native, is great hair/skin and having a colorful culture ( that was "outlawed") and a vibrant spirit. I pay taxes, I paid my own way through school and I absorb all the bills for my own health. I have no land to call my own and I don't envy those that do. Above All, I SHOP & promoteCANADIAN MADE and that means I, as a NATIVE CITIZEN contribute to my entire frikkin country and am one of those beautiful people that help make this country economically and culturally RICH.

The way I see it...is the (ahem) " non-Natives" have ben uneducated for far too long and this is their own fault. If they or their ancestors would have taken the intiative to educate themselves, then perhaps the people of Caledonia and every other small town built on Native land wouldn't be there in the first place, they would be living in the cities pursuing their own ambitious greed for currency instead of crying about land that was never theirs. Education is not given, it is sought!

Thoughts to Chew:

1. Ship a truckload of pillows to the Six Nation/ Caledonia sites and let them have a good ol' pillow fight.

Just for kicks!

2. Blockade every illegal Native land claim in Canada and see how fast the government responds and reacts.

Imagine: Thousands of blockades of pillowfights with signs that say "Closed for Business, thank you, come again"

The REALity? Perhaps our National Anthem says it the best.

[Riverwind]

It disgusts me that these uneducated half wits ( you silly posters know who you are ) keep rambling on about the Natives and their racial treatment.

And you think throwing insults is an effective counter argument?

The only benefit I ( and many, MANY others) have had for being a Native, is great hair and skin and having a colorful culture ( that was "outlawed") and vibrant spirit. I pay taxes, I paid my own way through school and I pay all the bills for my own health. I have no land to call my own and I don't envy those that do.

Great. That is the way it should be. However, way too many natives seem to think that they should be entitled to more because of their magical DNA.

If they or their ancestors would have taken the intiative to educate themselves, then perhaps the people of Caledonia and every other small town built on Native land wouldn't be there in the first place, they would be living in the cities pursuing their own ambitious greed for currency instead of crying about land that was never theirs.

You presume too much. The ancestors of a large percentage of the Canadian population were living elsewhere when these injustices occurred yet you seem to assume that they should pay higher taxes because of mistakes that were not their fault.

[NativeCharm]

A spade is a spade and a deal is a deal. Simple. Our country is thriving and many of its residents are still living in less than "third world" condition. The "Nobody look at the "Indian" game is becoming stale for everyone and "taxes" are paving the way to everyones futures. Our government is trying to wear a halo to the rest of the planet ~while we're all getting screwed. Either way, the condition of Canada and it's (obvious) unpaid debt to the Native Treaties is a sensitive and REAL issue. It's a historical business matter that requires the necessary education to understand or in the very least...interpret.

All the residents that become affected due to living on traditional Native Land (according to the Treaties) SHOULD BE an expense absorbed by the government because it was their wrong doing. The government will have to pay for the relocation of all the non-Native residents to move~ to other municipalities/townships. Heck they paid for our moves way back when!.

Residents of Caledonia are now on the government welfare list, are they not?

[Riverwind]

It's a historical business matter that requires the necessary education to understand or in the very least...interpret.

The gov't has the power to expropriate anyone's property in the name of the public good. The gov't even has the right to decide what compensation is appropriate. If the courts disagree then the gov't can change the law. If the constitution is a barrier then the gov't can change the constitution.

In other words, native treaties are a moral issue - not a legal one. I see no reason to discard the egalitarian principles of our society in order to correct some historial wrongs.

The government will have to pay for the relocation of all the non-Native residents to move~ to other municipalities/townships.

Hell will freeze over first. History is full of injustice. Creating a new generation a victims will not fix anything.

Japanese-Canadians had all of their property taken by the gov't and were forced to relocate. After WW2 they were forced to give up most of their culture in order to overcome the stigma associated with being Japanese. Yet subsequent generations of Japanese-Canadians are not living in poverty today. In other words, you cannot claim that the current state of native society is a result of a gov't that 'stole' the land.

[NativeCharm]

Oh please tell me what your version of " the curent state" of Native Society is. I'm sure this will amuse me

[NativeCharm]

[

FYI: Once signatures were involved, it became legal.

[Riverwind]

Oh please tell me what your version of " the curent state" of Native Society is. I'm sure this will amuse me

Your words were:

Our country is thriving and many of its residents are still living in less than "third world" condition.

FYI: Once signatures were involved, it became legal.

Signatures mean nothing because the gov't has the power to change the law if it feels the deals where not in the public interest. In BC, the NDP signed contracts with unions - when the Liberals came to power they passed a law that revoked those legally binding contracts because the Liberals felt those contracts gave too much to a small group of people at the expense of the majority. The union tried to challenge the gov't action in court but failed.

IOW. You cannot claim that we must honour native treaties simply because they are 'signed agreements'. Native treaties are a moral and political issue - nothing more, nothing less.

[NativeCharm]

Well, with all the rocks in the fire, its gonna get hot. Keeping in mind that Canada's fastest growing population is Aboriginal youth, it is fair to say that the laws will be changing. The rampant increase with education and business success amongst the Native people's will dominate the future of our country. Even the recent genocidal tactics can not prevent the evolution of Native society. So it's only common sense to approach the Native issues with sound mind and calculative judgement. Only a fool would deny the increasing presence of Native powers.

[Riverwind]

Please explain how this lovely piece of victim propaganda:

Even the recent genocidal tactics can not prevent the evolution of Native society.

is consistent with this statement:

So it's only common sense to approach the Native issues with sound mind and calculative judgement.

I agree that some pragmatism is necessary to resolve these issues. That is why I said native treaties are a _political_ issue rather than a legal one. However, non-native Canadians should approach any such dicussions with certain principals in mind. First and foremost should be that aparthied is has no place in our society and that past wrongs cannot be used to justify future wrongs.

[NativeCharm]

The only Native issues I see at hand, are the land issues.

[Temagami Scourge]

Native Charm;

Nice to see you, and may i offer a hearty welcome to this site. I see you've met Riverend. I would like to point out one particular item that completely explains River's view of Aboriginal people:

Signatures mean nothing.....You cannot claim that we must honour native treaties simply because they are 'signed agreements'. Native treaties are a moral and political issue

River has been unable to effectively argue any other perspective, so he often plays the "power" card that "his" people have the power, so too bad.

To me, I'd hate to do business with someone who thinks so lightly of signed agreements. Maybe the pertinent question should be whether signed agreements with Aboriginal people are not equal to those made between Caucasians by his standards.

Besides, his idea of "equality" between Indians and the rest of Canada is like challenging us to a 100-yard dash while he gets a 95-yard headstart.

Like we're that dumb....

[NativeCharm]

Hey Tem, thank for the welcome:)

Yeah Riv's cool, he amuses me and makes me laugh!

[NativeCharm]

THIS I LOVE:

"The Canadian federal government gets more money from their royalties on resources than they do on income tax, so to say that the First Nations live off the good grace of the Canadian taxpayer is absolutely false. We want a share of our own land and resources _ we want a share of our own wealth.'' Chief Nelson

[Temagami Scourge]

NC:

Hey Tem, thank for the welcome:)

Yeah Riv's cool, he amuses me and makes me laugh!

You know, I think he might do a cute little jig for us if we tossed copper at his feet.....at least that's the impression I get from his posts.

[Riverwind]

To me, I'd hate to do business with someone who thinks so lightly of signed agreements.

A few facts: native treaty claims are not 'business deals'. Claiming that they are business deals is intellectually dishonest. They are political agreements that must be renegotiated as circumstances change.

Frankly, claiming that treaties must be honoured because the are 'signed agreements' is a pretty weak argument. Most people know that there is a big difference between what is legal and what is right.

Besides, his idea of "equality" between Indians and the rest of Canada is like challenging us to a 100-yard dash while he gets a 95-yard headstart.

Thousands of dirt poor immigrants come to Canada every year. Within a generation they are able to catch up with the average Canadian without any special rights confered by the gov't. Why should natives require anything more to succeed?

[Temagami Scourge]

THIS I LOVE:

"The Canadian federal government gets more money from their royalties on resources than they do on income tax, so to say that the First Nations live off the good grace of the Canadian taxpayer is absolutely false. We want a share of our own land and resources _ we want a share of our own wealth.'' Chief Nelson

...which is exactly why River argues that signed agreements with Natives are meaningless. Simple greed.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

But past wrongs should be learned from, and corrected if possible.

The solution to the problem is simple. Canada has to live up to its obligations, as stated in the treaties.

ALL OF THEM!!!

Ive argued with River about the validity of a signed legal agreement before, and he wriggles like a worm on a hook

In regards NativeCharms's comments youve taken issue with :

He/She may be referring to the Indian act as a whole. ( still havnt read it eh? Riv? )

Secondly - Common Sense and Calculative judgement may mean that somone with sound mind will realise that these issues are not going to go away, and they should be dealt with immediately for the greater benefit

of all concerned.

Just my two cents.

Please explain how this lovely piece of victim propaganda:

Even the recent genocidal tactics can not prevent the evolution of Native society.

is consistent with this statement:

So it's only common sense to approach the Native issues with sound mind and calculative judgement.

I agree that some pragmatism is necessary to resolve these issues. That is why I said native treaties are a _political_ issue rather than a legal one. However, non-native Canadians should approach any such dicussions with certain principals in mind. First and foremost should be that aparthied is has no place in our society and that past wrongs cannot be used to justify future wrongs.

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

Ah man...you have to prove this:

Thousands of dirt poor immigrants come to Canada every year. Within a generation they are able to catch up with the average Canadian without any special rights confered by the gov't.

I don't believe this for an instant, especially according to the latest research. In the olden days post WW II, the notion of the succesful immigrant had truth behind it, but that has been far from the case in the 1980's.

I'm familiar with the Ornstein report, and his study totally contradicts what you state. If you read it, you'll note that Natives are actually better off than immigrants in general, and in particular African immigrants. Here is the full report:

http://www.isr.yorku.ca/download/Ornstein-...o_1971-2001.pdf

Buddy, you keep digging these holes for yourself...

[Riverwind]

"The Canadian federal government gets more money from their royalties on resources than they do on income tax, so to say that the First Nations live off the good grace of the Canadian taxpayer is absolutely false. We want a share of our own land and resources _ we want a share of our own wealth.'' Chief Nelson

That statement is completely false. The federal government collects close to $200/billion per year in income and consumption taxes - revenue from all other sources is a mere $30 billion. My facts are easy to verify on the stats can website but I suspect you are not interested in facts that undermine the confortable 'victim' bubble you have created for yourself.

[NativeCharm]

Thousands of dirt poor immigrants come to Canada every year. Within a generation they are able to catch up with the average Canadian without any special rights confered by the gov't. Why should natives require anything more to succeed?

Landed immigrants access the same social benefits, health, education, housing etc, and are able to do so because we contributed to the wealth of the country. Canada is a multicultural farmlans because we sacrificed for the harvesting.

Many of our Native people's do not live the same way as the currency chasers, so they do not have anything to "catch up" to. Their way of life is completely different than other citizens. A way of life that all Canadians should protect, as it is a part of our Nation's heritage.

Who determines the success of a society?

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Dont accept any cheques from River LOL

Signatures mean nothing.....You cannot claim that we must honour native treaties simply because they are 'signed agreements'. Native treaties are a moral and political issue

[Riverwind]

I don't believe this for an instant, especially according to the latest research. In the olden days post WW II, the notion of the succesful immigrant had truth behind it, but that has been far from the case in the 1980's.

The relative decline in the success of some immigrant groups compared to the Canadian population does not explain why natives are not able to do better with the benefits they already have.

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

That statement is completely false. The federal government collects close to $200/billion per year in income and consumption taxes - revenue from all other sources is a mere $30 billion. My facts are easy to verify on the stats can website but I suspect you are not interested in facts that undermine the confortable 'victim' bubble you have created for yourself

To coin an immortal phrase uttered by Arnold in the T.V. program Different Strokes : Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis? I've offered examples from our own government estimates when discussing Aboriginal funding, which you promptly ignored, nor have you a clue about the Indian Act (that's what I like about you...how you argue things using baseless resources, or crystal balls), so don't try to pull this "false" crap. you go to Rev can's site and show us your proof.

Boo yah

[Temagami Scourge]

I don't believe this for an instant, especially according to the latest research. In the olden days post WW II, the notion of the succesful immigrant had truth behind it, but that has been far from the case in the 1980's.

The relative decline in the success of some immigrant groups compared to the Canadian population does not explain why natives are not able to do better with the benefits they already have.

I see you forgot this part of the same post:

...If you read it, you'll note that Natives are actually better off than immigrants in general, and in particular African immigrants.

Must be that renowned selective thinking...

[Riverwind]

so don't try to pull this "false" crap. you go to Rev can's site and show us your proof.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/govt02a.htm

Most of the economic activity in Canada is based on services provided in the big cities.