Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Am I deluded, or are people just in denial of the facts.

I remember way back when i started this thread, the topic was education of our youth about the true history of Canada's beginning involving Native People.

You really need to read up on your history - you can start by researching the core documents involving Native Rights and Land Claims. What is important to note is that all these documents were signed and sealed by the Crown, and therefore legally binding - even today.

The documents of interest in regards to Caledonia are :

The Royal Proclomation of 1763

The Haldimand Deed of 1784

The Hamilton Port Dover Plank Road Agreement of 1841

Ive posted this information on a response to BigBlueMachine ( just above this post )

And also look for information regarding the Two Row Wampum Belt which i beleive will outline the relationship of the Six Nations Confederacy and The British Crown.

Two Row Wampum Belt

One purple row of beads represents the path of the natives' canoe which contains their customs and laws. The other row represents the path of the Whiteman's vessel, the sailing ship, which contains his customs and laws. The meaning of the parallel paths is that neither boat should out pace the other, and the paths should remain separate and parallel forever, that is, as long as the grass grows, the rivers flow, the sun shines, and will be everlasting, and they shall always renew their treaties.

http://hometown.aol.com/miketben/miketben.htm

In regards to a UN initiative - In early May 2006 Doreen Silversmith travelled to the UN to discuss the situations Native People in Canada face. I welcome the day when these matters are finally weighed in a UN Court.

Links --> UNITED NATIONS DRAFT DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES

http://www.usask.ca/nativelaw/ddirplain.html ( plain language draft )

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/declra.htm - ( full draft )

These are a very informative read - and all sections of the document are important, but please read the paragraph beginning with " Concerned...... "

Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe

As deluded as I believe you are with your opinions I must give you credit for at least conducting an intelligent and civilized conversation; I wish I could say the same for your brethren in Caledonia.

If you honestly believe that you are a seperate and independant nation and the Canadian government and people disagree then this clearly seems to be an issue for the World courts to decide. But you will need to be recognized as an independant nation first. Approach the UN and see if you can get this recognition. Until such time this should be viewed by the Canadian people as a hostile takeover of land and a threat to our national security. National security issues need to be addressed by the military not the OPP.

[sahara]

What does any of what you wrote in your previous post have to do with the original question you posed?

Which was basically - What right do Native People have to access programs they dont contribute to?

I never said not to except benefits only if you are don't claim not to be a part of this country and its laws. THAT was my point.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

I never said not to except benefits only if you are don't claim not to be a part of this country and its laws. THAT was my point.

Well im afraid irregardless of the Native view that they are an Independant Nation, the fact of the matter is that they pay into the same fund as non-natives. Therefore they should have the same rights to draw from said fund.

but you bring about a good topic - ( Firstly lets agree at least in theory that Six Nations is a seperate Nation completely - no ties with taxation etc to Canada ) Bring into being an independant fund for providing health,financial and social support solely to Native people. For instance Six Nations will keep that $120 Million ( actually the figure will be a wee bit higher since that taxation figure is from a single business only ) in taxes that goes to everybodies programs Federally. In turn the government can allocate that $64 Million in transfer payment to other non-native programs. Right off the cuff that puts Six Nations up with $56 Million plus extra in a year to promote Six Nations Programs.

Theoretically, this sounds like a great idea. I wonder if it could ever come to be?

[jrs]

I did read through your links. Keep in mind that these are non-binding and generic dictums.

Look, know matter what we say here it really boils down to the a land claim. I can site and post the original treaty documents (I have them in front of me, i don't even know if you can post jpegs on this forum because I am new here). From what I have read from BOTH sides it appears that Natives feel that either the historic treaties were forged or altered OR that some within your own community sold off lands for their own profit with marginal majority consent of your leaders.

If they were indeed forged then you have a legitimate claim, yes that is right I said legitimate! If however, treaties were signed and the greed of a few natives took precident then you have no claim with us and should inwards for justice rather than outwards.

Do you agree that it has to be one or the other?

[jrs]

but you bring about a good topic - ( Firstly lets agree at least in theory that Six Nations is a seperate Nation completely - no ties with taxation etc to Canada ) Bring into being an independant fund for providing health,financial and social support solely to Native people. For instance Six Nations will keep that $120 Million ( actually the figure will be a wee bit higher since that taxation figure is from a single business only ) in taxes that goes to everybodies programs Federally. In turn the government can allocate that $64 Million in transfer payment to other non-native programs. Right off the cuff that puts Six Nations up with $56 Million plus extra in a year to promote Six Nations Programs.

Theoretically, this sounds like a great idea. I wonder if it could ever come to be?

The logistics of independance, borders, security, infrastructure, self-contained education, debt-sharing etc. would have to be ironed out. If something could be arranged I am confident that people in this area would welcome that. However their would be no going back for either parties.

[scribblet]

The logistics of independance, borders, security, infrastructure, self-contained education, debt-sharing etc. would have to be ironed out. If something could be arranged I am confident that people in this area would welcome that. However their would be no going back for either parties.

There is also the matter of passports, would they be part of NAFTA, etc. etc. something similar to the matter of Quebec wanting to separate, all or nothing. If you wish to be considered a separate nation fine, but that also means no more money from the ROC.

From what I have read the land was sold to the gov't, there is no question there. The question seems to be money, where they compensated properly or not. If not, then it should be back to to table to talk, there is no excuse for this lawlessness, and neither is there an excuse for the gov't not to act on this now.

The situation in Caledonia seems to worsening although I'm sure, it will be seen as 'racism' by the some because a group of people feel they need to protect themselves as they are not getting protection from the province. I don't agree with vigalnte type actions but what are they to do if the authorities will not act to protect them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

Homeowners in the neighbourhood told an information meeting of the Caledonia Citizens Alliance on Tuesday they are “terrified” by gunshots in the ravine behind their homes, masked men roaring through the ravine on ATVs, and attempts to burn wooden fences between their homes and the disputed land.

Others told of a cache of gasoline-filled bottles commonly referred to as Molotov cocktails stashed near their homes.

“We're hurting over there,” said resident Kevin Clark. “We need help. It is terror there, not just anger.”

The plan calls for residents to “repel the aggression by creation of a large presence and advance together as one unit peacefully, if possible, until the offending persons remove themselves from the property and back into their own area.”

David Hartless, author of the plan, said the intention is not to create vigilantes.

Residents would not pursue protesters past the “borderline” (yellow police tape), he said.

“This is only a defensive act,” Mr. Hartless said in the letter. “The OPP response has been largely ineffectual and it is now apparent that in order to protect ourselves, our families and our homes, we must do so collectively and present a united front.”

[Riverwind]

but you bring about a good topic - ( Firstly lets agree at least in theory that Six Nations is a seperate Nation completely - no ties with taxation etc to Canada ) Bring into being an independant fund for providing health,financial and social support solely to Native people. For instance Six Nations will keep that $120

Your logic is flawed: the $120 million is an excise duty - not an income tax. American companies that wish to sell cigarettes in Canada must pay the same duty and they have no right to get even a penny back.

Your example illustrates why 'Six Nations' is _not_ a sovereign nation no matter what the natives would like to believe.

[Charles Anthony]

“We're hurting over there,” said resident Kevin Clark. “We need help. It is terror there, not just anger.”

The plan calls for residents to “repel the aggression by creation of a large presence and advance together as one unit peacefully, if possible, until the offending persons remove themselves from the property and back into their own area.”

This sounds like people are getting ready for impending guerilla warfare.

To anybody who has been there recently: am I correct?

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

I am not an expert in taxation LOL I was making a theoretical argument - but i guess you missed the point i was making.

ONE business on reserve pays $120 Million a year, and the band council only receives $64 Million to fund programs. And despite this people still think the Natve People do not contribute taxes *shakes head*

They contribute DOUBLE the tax ( or duty or whatever name youre comfortable in refering to it ) what they receive back in transfer payments.

As far as Six Nations being sovereign, the history of the relationship between the Six Nations and the Crown is very clear, but just like the land claims we just need the government to admit their validity despite the mongering of some of the population. UN anyone?

Income Taxes - River! - Thats a whole new kettle of fish!!

but you bring about a good topic - ( Firstly lets agree at least in theory that Six Nations is a seperate Nation completely - no ties with taxation etc to Canada ) Bring into being an independant fund for providing health,financial and social support solely to Native people. For instance Six Nations will keep that $120

Your logic is flawed: the $120 million is an excise duty - not an income tax. American companies that wish to sell cigarettes in Canada must pay the same duty and they have no right to get even a penny back.

Your example illustrates why 'Six Nations' is _not_ a sovereign nation no matter what the natives would like to believe.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

I agree Charles - sounds like the residents of Caledonia are thinking about escalating the situation.

Actually let me correct that - the residents listening to the hate factions stirring things up.

Ive been there MANY times, and i have not seen or heard any evidence of weapons on the protest site. Oh wait I lied ! I saw a man walki... i mean weilding a walking stick.

Anybody looking at the site will immediately see a peaceful sit in in progress - these people advocating this walk through want to change that - because it suits their agenda.

It is beyond me how anyone could beleive such an action would remain peacful - AND maintain they are not vigilantes.

“We're hurting over there,” said resident Kevin Clark. “We need help. It is terror there, not just anger.”

The plan calls for residents to “repel the aggression by creation of a large presence and advance together as one unit peacefully, if possible, until the offending persons remove themselves from the property and back into their own area.”

This sounds like people are getting ready for impending guerilla warfare.

To anybody who has been there recently: am I correct?

[Riverwind]

As far as Six Nations being sovereign, the history of the relationship between the Six Nations and the Crown is very clear, but just like the land claims we just need the government to admit their validity despite the mongering of some of the population. UN anyone?

The wording of treaties mean nothing. The Six Nations is _not_ a soveriegn nation based on the internationally accepted definitions. For this reason, the UN will not recognize the Six Nations claims. The UN does have some conventions regarding fair treatment of aboriginal peoples, however, these conventions do not include treating every self-defined aboriginal group as a soveriegn nation.

[Riverwind]

I agree Charles - sounds like the residents of Caledonia are thinking about escalating the situation.Actually let me correct that - the residents listening to the hate factions stirring things up.

I have made the case on this forum that granting special rights to certain Canadians based on their ethnic background is wrong and will lead to an increase in racial tension and violence. What is happening in Caledonia now is proof of what I have been saying. In this situation, the gov't allowed native groups to repeatedly break the law because they were native. This has created resentment among the non-native population that will poison the community for years to come.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

.... the gov't allowed native groups to repeatedly break the law because they were native. This has created resentment among the non-native population that will poison the community for years to come.

The numbers of charges laid against Native people country wide does not support the assumption that they repeatedly break the laws and got away with it.

Posters in your camp say the numers of Native people in jail are disproportionate, then go right into the argument that Natives are getting away with crime?

So............... Which is it?

Again i ask - What laws be specific. The laws of Canada - is not a valid response - quote an article from the criminal code

[Riverwind]

The numbers of charges laid against Native people country wide does not support the assumption that they repeatedly break the laws and got away with it.

The charges were only laid when the crimes committed by the protestors got the point that it was no longer possible to ignore. It would have never gotten to this point if the gov't had enforced the original court order to remove the blockades.

Again i ask - What laws be specific. The laws of Canada - is not a valid response - quote an article from the criminal code

Setting up a blockade in violation of a court order is breaking the law. I beleive the offense is 'criminal contempt of court'.

[Argus]

“We're hurting over there,” said resident Kevin Clark. “We need help. It is terror there, not just anger.”

The plan calls for residents to “repel the aggression by creation of a large presence and advance together as one unit peacefully, if possible, until the offending persons remove themselves from the property and back into their own area.”

This sounds like people are getting ready for impending guerilla warfare.

To anybody who has been there recently: am I correct?

Sounds more like a citizen militia to me

[Argus]

I am not an expert in taxation LOL I was making a theoretical argument - but i guess you missed the point i was making.

ONE business on reserve pays $120 Million a year, and the band council only receives $64 Million to fund programs. And despite this people still think the Natve People do not contribute taxes *shakes head*

They contribute DOUBLE the tax ( or duty or whatever name youre comfortable in refering to it ) what they receive back in transfer payments.

if you're talking about a casino, the money given in taxation is money the government would have gotten anyway from the taxes on whatever the white people who go to those casinos bought with the money.

The government much prefers businesses which contribute to the nation's productivity growth, which build things, if you will, which export things.

[scribblet]

If the native violence wasn't escalating, and the province was actually doing its job, the citizens of Caledonia wouldn't feel the need for a citizen's militia. I certainly hope that someone doesn't have to die before any action is taken.

Criminal contempt of court would not have been tolerated if this had been a 'non-native' group, another example of race based preferential treatment.

[Canuck E Stan]

Good article by Lorrie Goldstien on the reason for trouble in Land claims. According to Goldstien the culprits are the governments,both Provincial and Federal:

Why, no matter who's in charge, does nothing ever get better for aboriginals?

What could be more insane than the disastrous situation Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Prime Minister Stephen Harper (because no land claim can be solved without the active presence of the federal government) have allowed to develop in Caledonia over the past 104 days?

Caledonia is a classic example of the breakdown in the social order that occurs when politicians abdicate leadership.

The spark in Caledonia was the failure of both governments to deal with a native land claim in a just and timely way.

Goldstien also talks about the amount of money that is given to the aboriginals,and how little it does for the individual aboriginals.

Clearly, the major problem is the distribution system for all this cash, a huge government bureaucracy -- both native and non-native -- that stands between every aboriginal and that $7,500 a year. Eighty per cent of the money the federal Department of Indian Affairs spends on aboriginals is transferred not to individuals, but to native bands where it is then disbursed through local chiefs and band councils.

Clearly, as the Canadian Taxpayers Federation (among many others) has argued, this system isn't working. Years of reports by the federal auditor general and even some from within the Indian Affairs ministry itself, have cited a lack of proper spending controls. The system is riddled with allegations of incompetence, waste, mismanagement, nepotism and corruption. And yet, year after year, nothing changes.

One definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

It's probably in the best interest of everyone that the "system" of dishing out money to the aboriginals and the method of solving land claims be updated into something that becomes more efficient and moves a little quicker.Waiting decades to solve land claims seems a little bit excessive, and at the same time watching aboriginals live in poverty while billions are given, definitely needs a hard look and a sharp pencil of someone like Sheila Fraser,plus a commitment by government to implement the changes necessary to make the "system" one that works for the individual aboriginals and the government.Change can be good.

[Riverwind]

It's probably in the best interest of everyone that the "system" of dishing out money to the aboriginals

Take all the money that goes to band councils today and issue checks to each individual band member and then tell the band council that they need to fund themselves by taxing their band members. I am willing to bet the system will get cleaned up so fast that the band councils wouldn't know what hit them.

[geoffrey]

It's probably in the best interest of everyone that the "system" of dishing out money to the aboriginals

Take all the money that goes to band councils today and issue checks to each individual band member and then tell the band council that they need to fund themselves by taxing their band members. I am willing to bet the system will get cleaned up so fast that the band councils wouldn't know what hit them.

The funding amounts per Indian is just ridiculous, I often wonder where it all goes. $40,000 per average family hand out (there is a little more than $10k per Indian spent every year), tax free (equivalent in a working man's income would be about $70k per family).

Having councils tax their members is a good idea. Not giving people money/benefits based on their race is even better.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

If the native violence wasn't escalating, and the province was actually doing its job, the citizens of Caledonia wouldn't feel the need for a citizen's militia. I certainly hope that someone doesn't have to die before any action is taken.

Criminal contempt of court would not have been tolerated if this had been a 'non-native' group, another example of race based preferential treatment.

This Citizens Miltia is nothing more then a Hate gang. The need felt by the citizens of Caledonia is a direct result of manipulation of the situation by certain organised groups that have moved into the area since the protest began. They dont give a lick about what happens to the people directly involved in the situation. Native or Non-Native. There only agenda is to create tension that explodes into violence, and when that is satisfied they, and their insincere support will vanish.

Unfortuneatly the media is only telling half the story - what about the constant abuse faced by people on the site? The groups that come out at night - specifically, the group congregating in the school yard - getting drunk and throwing bottles, stones or whatever else they can get their hands on. Some of this group were carted away and later released - no charges. And there are some people out there who have video evidence of what the people on the site have endured, as of yet no media will show the other side of the story.

Scrib - insisting that the word of an agreement be lived up to has nothing to do with race. But if you want to research an inherently racist document look into the Indian act.

Notes on the Indian Act

The Indian Act seems out of step with the bulk of Canadian law. It singles out a segment of society -- largely on the basis of race -- removes much of their land and property from the commercial mainstream and gives the Minister of Indian & Northern Affairs, and other government officials, a degree of discretion that is not only intrusive but frequently offensive. The Act has been roundly criticized on all sides: many want it abolished because it violates normative standards of equality, and these critics tend to be non-Aboriginal; others want First Nations to be able to make their own decisions as self-governing polities and see the Act as inhibiting that freedom. Even within its provisions, others see unfair treatment as between, for example, Indians who live on reserve and those who reside elsewhere. In short, this is a statute of which few speak well.

Link to article --> http://www.bloorstreet.com/200block/sindact.htm

[Riverwind]

Scrib - insisting that the word of an agreement be lived up to has nothing to do with race.

The people who signed these agreements are long dead. People living today are trying to use their race as a basis to claim to benefits under these agreements. That is what makes land claims racist. If it was simply a matter of an contract between parties then there would be no issue today because one or both of the parties no longer exist.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

If all the land involved in land claims were restored to its legal owners, im sure a sustainable and self sufficient system could be negotiated. But in order to do this they need the resources and income provided by the land. The UN wheels are a rollin with this issue, so i feel it appropriate to post the opening section of The UN Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples :

Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal in dignity and rights to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, and to be respected as such,

Affirming also that all peoples contribute to the diversity and richness of civilizations and cultures, which constitute the common heritage of humankind,

Affirming further that all doctrines, policies and practices based on or advocating superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of national origin, racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences are racist, scientifically false, legally invalid, morally condemnable and socially unjust,

Reaffirming also that indigenous peoples, in the exercise of their rights, should be free from discrimination of any kind,

Concerned that indigenous peoples have been deprived of their human rights and fundamental freedoms, resulting, inter alia , in their colonization and dispossession of their lands, territories and resources, thus preventing them from exercising, in particular, their right to development in accordance with their own needs and interests,

Recognizing the urgent need to respect and promote the inherent rights and characteristics of indigenous peoples, especially their rights to their lands, territories and resources, which derive from their political, economic and social structures and from their cultures, spiritual traditions, histories and philosophies,

Welcoming the fact that indigenous peoples are organizing themselves for political, economic, social and cultural enhancement and in order to bring an end to all forms of discrimination and oppression wherever they occur,

Convinced that control by indigenous peoples over developments affecting them and their lands, territories and resources will enable them to maintain and strengthen their institutions, cultures and traditions, and to promote their development in accordance with their aspirations and needs,

Recognizing also that respect for indigenous knowledge, cultures and traditional practices contributes to sustainable and equitable development and proper management of the environment,

Emphasizing the need for demilitarization of the lands and territories of indigenous peoples, which will contribute to peace, economic and social progress and development, understanding and friendly relations among nations and peoples of the world,

Recognizing in particular the right of indigenous families and communities to retain shared responsibility for the upbringing, training, education and well-being of their children,

Recognizing also that indigenous peoples have the right freely to determine their relationships with States in a spirit of coexistence, mutual benefit and full respect,

Considering that treaties, agreements and other arrangements between States and indigenous peoples are properly matters of international concern and responsibility,

Acknowledging that the Charter of the United Nations, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights affirm the fundamental importance of the right of self-determination of all peoples, by virtue of which they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development,

Bearing in mind that nothing in this Declaration may be used to deny any peoples their right of self-determination,

Encouraging States to comply with and effectively implement all international instruments, in particular those related to human rights, as they apply to indigenous peoples, in consultation and cooperation with the peoples concerned,

Emphasizing that the United Nations has an important and continuing role to play in promoting and protecting the rights of indigenous peoples,

Believing that this Declaration is a further important step forward for the recognition, promotion and protection of the rights and freedoms of indigenous peoples and in the development of relevant activities of the United Nations system in this field

It's probably in the best interest of everyone that the "system" of dishing out money to the aboriginals

Take all the money that goes to band councils today and issue checks to each individual band member and then tell the band council that they need to fund themselves by taxing their band members. I am willing to bet the system will get cleaned up so fast that the band councils wouldn't know what hit them.

The funding amounts per Indian is just ridiculous, I often wonder where it all goes. $40,000 per average family hand out (there is a little more than $10k per Indian spent every year), tax free (equivalent in a working man's income would be about $70k per family).

Having councils tax their members is a good idea. Not giving people money/benefits based on their race is even better.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

That is incorrect Sir

That is like saying when youre father passes away you could repossess a house that he had sold years earlier. Or if he gave a gift to his neighbour ( an Old War Buddy in this case ) a gift ( the land ) - Upon his passing does that give you the right to take that gift from him?

Race seems to be the paramont point with you River ( and others ), secondly money. You will never be able to understand the reality of what Native Peoples have gone through, even in the past little while. Even the last 200 years is recent history in comparison to world history. I hope that when you pass, someone doesnt waltz in and take any of the inheritance you left your children, and their children.

Scrib - insisting that the word of an agreement be lived up to has nothing to do with race.

The people who signed these agreements are long dead. People living today are trying to use their race as a basis to claim to benefits under these agreements. That is what makes land claims racist. If it was simply a matter of an contract between parties then there would be no issue today because one or both of the parties no longer exist.

[Charles Anthony]

someone doesnt waltz in and take any of the inheritance you left your children, and their children.

Exactly.

Non-natives repeatedly attack native claims as being race claims but they are not based on race. Stop doing that!

Native claims are based on inheritance.

Non-natives continue to close their ears to this fact.