Canada's Largest Union Votes to Boycott Israel

[Guest Warwick Green]

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything as individuals. Unions were founded on the understanding that all its members may not be unanimous on every issue. But they're run (somewhat) democratically, so if members don't like the direction their union is taking, they can get involved and get their voice heard. If they don't want to get involved, then I guess they can rant about it in online forums.

In most collective agreements payment of union dues is mandatory whether you support the union or not. If I'm Jewish and am represented by CUPE can I withold my dues in protest to their boycott against Israel? No, I can't.

Some democracy.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything as individuals. Unions were founded on the understanding that all its members may not be unanimous on every issue. But they're run (somewhat) democratically, so if members don't like the direction their union is taking, they can get involved and get their voice heard. If they don't want to get involved, then I guess they can rant about it in online forums.

Unions should stick to representing their members interests when dealing with employers. They are supposed to represent the interests of all their members, not just the majority. That is not possible as soon as they get involved in political or social issues. Union members pay dues to be represented and most cannot opt out as long as they are employed at a union company. There is no way they should be forced to pay for a political agenda they may not agree with. That is like being forced to donate to a political party that someone else chooses.

You have hit the essence of the issue. You are forced to pay dues so the union can represent you as a worker. Then a small number of people decide to use the union for political purposes - and the worker has no way of protesting.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The Palestinians are going to have to recognize Israel's right to exist. On the other hand Israel will have to give up territory.

umm, the Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist since 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September 1993.

Arafat letter.

You have hit the essence of the issue. You are forced to pay dues so the union can represent you as a worker. Then a small number of people decide to use the union for political purposes - and the worker has no way of protesting.

I'm a CUPE member and I can vote against resolutions any time I want at general meetings.

[BubberMiley]

. Then a small number of people decide to use the union for political purposes - and the worker has no way of protesting.

Either you don't know how unions work, or you're lying. It's easy to get involved.

[lost&outofcontrol]

. Then a small number of people decide to use the union for political purposes - and the worker has no way of protesting.

Either you don't know how unions work, or you're lying. It's easy to get involved.

Ignorance is bliss.

[scribblet]

Good catch, Scriblett. I saw this yesterday. Made me sick but it is yet another example of the left supporting terrorists.

Yes it is isn't it.What is it about Israel that the left hates so much - maybe its because indirectly it enables them to vent their hatred towards the U.S.

http://www.judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0389

With all of labour’s supposed grievances, why the urgency on this issue? Because according to CUPE(Ont.) Israel does not " recognize the Palestinian right to self-determination." Let us put aside the fact that Israel was the only country to recognize the future Arab state of Palestine after partition in 1947; put aside the fact that within one week of the 1967 war when Israel defended itself from invasion by five Arab states and still offered total withdrawal and recognition in return for peace and was greeted with the Arab states’ Khartoum resolution of “No negotiation; no recognition; no peace”; put aside the fact that Israel has recognized Palestinian self-determination at Oslo, at Madrid and at Camp David and been refused each time by Palestinian leadership; what makes this resolution so egregious in nature - such an affront to truth and transparency - is that it comes at a time when the Palestinian Authority’s own President has challenged the Hamas government to renounce violence and recognize Israel or face a referendum. President Abbas’ own actions put the lie to the pretense that this CUPE (Ont.) initiative was done in the tradition of labour’s fight for universal social justice. The Palestinians don’t question Israel’s acceptance of their right to self-determination. They question only their own capacity to manifest it.

It’s time to call a spade a spade. CUPE (Ont.)’s action is, at worst, a primordial example of a hypocrisy unmasked revealing the true face of anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, and, at best, a knee-jerk Canadian antipathy to any American ally. An antipathy that at its heart is fuelled by a self-doubt driven by a jealousy of others self-belief." wow, right on.

To Lost: Arafat was a liar and a thief, and Hamas does not recognize Israel.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...L&type=politics

Israel, the U.S. and Europe demand that Hamas recognize Israel, accept previous peace accords and renounce violence. Hamas has refused. Its ideology does not have a place for a Jewish state in the Middle East, and over the past decade it has sent dozens of suicide bombers into Israel.

[Charles Anthony]

if members don't like the direction their union is taking, they can get involved and get their voice heard. If they don't want to get involved, then I guess they can rant about it in online forums.

That is not fair. The union is the one taking the employees' money; not the other way around. Between the union and the members, the onus should be on the union to be more responsible with the members' dues -- not the other way around.

If I took your money (or any other property) and then told you what hoops you have to jump through to get it back or to make me use your money in your favor, at least I would recognize that I was not being fair to you and it would still be abuse.

If I'm Jewish and am represented by CUPE can I withold my dues in protest to their boycott against Israel? No, I can't.

Some democracy.

I think this is a grave injustice and represents an abuse of the principle of democracy.

The only option to you is to quit your job -- certainly, not very fair.

Unfortunately, the same thing can be said about all aspects of democracy.

If I do not want to support Trudeaumania, what choice do I have? My taxes will still go there.

If I do not want to support AdScam, what choice do I have? My taxes will still go there.

If I do not want to support the soft-wood lumber resolution, what choice do I have? My taxes will still go there.

If I do not want to support our military action in the Middle East, what choice do I have? My taxes will still go there.

et cetera....

To play Satan's Lawyer, at least as a member of the workers' union you have one choice: quit your job.

[scribblet]

Can't resist posting this letter from the NP

National Post

Published: Wednesday, May 31, 2006

Re: CUPE Joins Boycott Of Israel: Union's Ontario Wing Condemns 'Apartheid Wall,' May 29.

As a social worker at an Ontario Children's Aid Society and therefore an obligatory member of CUPE, I am outraged at CUPE's recent "unanimous" vote to boycott Israel. I was never consulted about CUPE's concern with the problems of the Middle East. What hubris on the part of the union's executive. What a flawed and uninformed assessment. Why is it that when Jews try to protect themselves from terrorist slaughter, people like Sid Ryan and the CUPE hierarchy feel they need to intercede on behalf of the terrorists? Is Canada so bereft of social issues that CUPE needs to focus outside our borders to express social concern?

I am ashamed that I am obliged to count myself a member of Sid Ryan's union.

......... Toronto.

© National Post 2006

[lost&outofcontrol]

Yes it is isn't it.What is it about Israel that the left hates so much - maybe its because indirectly it enables them to vent their hatred towards the U.S.

http://www.judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0389

With all of labour’s supposed grievances, why the urgency on this issue? Because according to CUPE(Ont.) Israel does not " recognize the Palestinian right to self-determination." Let us put aside the fact that Israel was the only country to recognize the future Arab state of Palestine after partition in 1947; put aside the fact that within one week of the 1967 war when Israel defended itself from invasion by five Arab states and still offered total withdrawal and recognition in return for peace and was greeted with the Arab states’ Khartoum resolution of “No negotiation; no recognition; no peace”; put aside the fact that Israel has recognized Palestinian self-determination at Oslo, at Madrid and at Camp David and been refused each time by Palestinian leadership; what makes this resolution so egregious in nature - such an affront to truth and transparency - is that it comes at a time when the Palestinian Authority’s own President has challenged the Hamas government to renounce violence and recognize Israel or face a referendum. President Abbas’ own actions put the lie to the pretense that this CUPE (Ont.) initiative was done in the tradition of labour’s fight for universal social justice. The Palestinians don’t question Israel’s acceptance of their right to self-determination. They question only their own capacity to manifest it.

It’s time to call a spade a spade. CUPE (Ont.)’s action is, at worst, a primordial example of a hypocrisy unmasked revealing the true face of anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, and, at best, a knee-jerk Canadian antipathy to any American ally. An antipathy that at its heart is fuelled by a self-doubt driven by a jealousy of others self-belief." wow, right on.

To Lost: Arafat was a liar and a thief, and Hamas does not recognize Israel.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...L&type=politics

Israel, the U.S. and Europe demand that Hamas recognize Israel, accept previous peace accords and renounce violence. Hamas has refused. Its ideology does not have a place for a Jewish state in the Middle East, and over the past decade it has sent dozens of suicide bombers into Israel.

Nice cherry picking of information. I'll re-quote what I posted earlier:

Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist since 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September 1993.

The Camp David accord was refused by the Palestinians because:

Israel sought to annex almost 9% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories and in exchange offered from Israel's own territory only the equivalent of 1% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. In addition, the Israel sought control over an additional 10% of the Occupied Palestinian Territories in the form of a "long-term lease".

The Palestinians did consider the idea of a land swap but proposed that such land swap must be based on a one-to-one ratio, with land of equal value and in areas adjacent to the border with Palestine and in the same vicinity as the lands to be annexed by Israel. However, Israel's Camp David proposal of a nine-to-one land swap (in Israel's favor) was viewed as so unfair as to seriously undermine belief in Israel's commitment to a fair territorial compromise.

Israel's proposal divided Palestine into four separate cantons surrounded by Israel: the Northern West Bank, the Central West Bank, the Southern West Bank and Gaza. Going from any one area to another would require crossing Israeli sovereign territory and consequently subject movement of Palestinians within their own country to Israeli control. Not only would such restrictions apply to the movement of people, but also to the movement of goods, in effect subjecting the Palestinian economy to Israeli control. Lastly, the Camp David proposal would have left Israel in control over all Palestinian borders thereby allowing Israel to control not only internal movement of people and goods but international movement as well. Such a Palestinian state would have had less sovereignty and viability than the Bantustans created by the South African apartheid government.

This isn't "anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism" but about fairness.

**added**

30 Years Of U.S. UN Vetoes, look at how many vetoes the US did against motion condemning state sponsored terrorism on Israel part.

Look at his one, it's almost like they "have" something to hide:

2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

[Argus]

"We believe the same strategy will work to enforce the rights of Palestinian people, including the right of refugees to return to their homes and properties."

We know what that part means don't we - complete demographic anniliation of Israel - kinda shows CUPE's bias doesn't it

Interesting. Boycotts and divestment played a big role in ending South Africa's apartheid policies in the '80s (policies which were also justified on the grounds of demographics), but these days it seems more of a symbolic gesture. Sadly, it' sonly a matter of time before we start hearing of CUPE's "anti-semetism"?

And the Left has been quite active in its opposition to boycotts since then, particularly to boycotts of places like Iraq or Iran or Libya. Boycotts, they say, only hurts the people, not the government.

Ah, but all the rules are different in dealing with the Jewish state.

And yes, of course this is anti-semitism. The Left in the west has embraced anti-semitism for some time. Israel is the modern great-satan, and Jews, well, they're guilty by association, and because most of them support Israel. BTW, I'm guessing of those 900 "unanimous" votes there were precious few Jews. Maybe they don't let Jews vote in CUPE.

[Argus]

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything as individuals. Unions were founded on the understanding that all its members may not be unanimous on every issue. But they're run (somewhat) democratically, so if members don't like the direction their union is taking, they can get involved and get their voice heard. If they don't want to get involved, then I guess they can rant about it in online forums.

Nice in theory, like Marxism, but doesn't work in the real world.

I belong to a union. The only time I ever see them or get involved with them is during contract negotiations, when everyone troops down to vote in favour of a strike because without a strike vote the government won't even bother to negotiate. Then we go back to approve the settlement. That's it. For me, and virtually everyone.

The only people who actually attend regular union meetings are the bitchers, whiners and complainers, the chronically unhappy. It is these people who vote for the local rep, and the rep is, of course, not only one of them but tends to be the political sort. In turn, the reps vote for their leaders. Those who climb the union ladder are almost all ideologues and zealots, all with their own agendas, and little time for the ordinary worker.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The only people who actually attend regular union meetings are the bitchers, whiners and complainers, the chronically unhappy.

Why don't you attend the meetings, you could vote for the policies you believe in. If the "normal" people like you would attend the meetings then you could change your union's policies.

[August1991]

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything as individuals. Unions were founded on the understanding that all its members may not be unanimous on every issue. But they're run (somewhat) democratically, so if members don't like the direction their union is taking, they can get involved and get their voice heard. If they don't want to get involved, then I guess they can rant about it in online forums.

So I guess Bubber (and LO&C), when the next Canadian (democratic) government brings in a back-to-work decree, removes a union's right-to-strike or otherwise passes restrictive union legislation, the unions will just accept it since we live in a democracy and all and we have to be unanimous in our solidarity.

And make no mistake, this CUPE decision makes such legislation more likely. Unions just lost a little more support from ordinary Canadians, and the NDP just lost a few voters. Most people can see that CUPE has no business taking positions on the Israeli-Palestinian dispute.

For a nebulous, purely symbolic statement about a dispute half a world away, CUPE has hurt the interests of the workers it is supposed to defend.

[Argus]

Politics is tied to every decision they make in some way or another. Choosing to invest in Israeli products makes as much of a political statement as choosing not to.

Nonsense. The only thing which should affect investment decisions made on behalf of their membership should be the safety and profitability of the investment.

[Guest Warwick Green]

The Palestinians are going to have to recognize Israel's right to exist. On the other hand Israel will have to give up territory.

umm, the Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist since 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September 1993.

Arafat letter.

You have hit the essence of the issue. You are forced to pay dues so the union can represent you as a worker. Then a small number of people decide to use the union for political purposes - and the worker has no way of protesting.

I'm a CUPE member and I can vote against resolutions any time I want at general meetings.

As for the first point, Hamas is the governing party of Palestinians and I am waiting for a clear definitive statement from them that they recoginze Israel's right to exist and they are giving up terrorism.

Can you as as A CUPE member withold payment of dues if you wish?

[Argus]

The only people who actually attend regular union meetings are the bitchers, whiners and complainers, the chronically unhappy.

Why don't you attend the meetings, you could vote for the policies you believe in. If the "normal" people like you would attend the meetings then you could change your union's policies.

Because normal people don't attend union meetings. And the unions like it that way. Our union, at least, makes little effort to let members know when a meeting is coming up or where it will be.

[Argus]

Isreal has been a terrorist stae towards Palestine for many years now.

Israel has been a small state surrounded by a hoarde of ravening religious fanatics and bigots for many years now, all of them dedicating to murdering Jews at any opportunity. That doesn't bother people like you, though, or draw any condemnation.

They attack and kill with impunity and the world bodies have done little to stop it.

If we had a group on our border which was constantly launching vicious terrorist attacks I suspect you'd be among those screaming to bomb and kill them to eliminate the problem.

If a public union can start a small but growing sentiment showing Isreal for what it really is, then I have no problems with it.

What Israel "is" is the only democratic state in the middle east. The difference between Israel and its neighbours is that the intifida could never happen in Arab nations because everyone involved would be immediately killed, thus ending the protests. Israel is thus condemned for being more tolerant and less violent than its neighbours. And yet, people like you consistently shout abuse at Israel while blithely ignoring the violence, and anti-semitism of all of its neighbours.

One has to question the motivation for such one-sided condemnation, for it certainly does not arise out of ANY concern for human rights or freedom.

I only wish Canada as a country would also come out and cry foul when events by Isreal happen. Enough of the sympathy for the holocast. Now it is Isreal who is the offender and they are being worse then Hitler about it. Just as Hitler should havebeen stopped much earlier then he was, so should Isreal.

You clearly don't know anything about Hitler, anything about the Holocaust, anything about the Middle East or the Arab world. Your opinions appear to be based on ignorance and bigotry.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Can you as as A CUPE member withold payment of dues if you wish?

I don't know to be honest, I've been told in the past that you could be it never came up. I'll try to find the info.

Because normal people don't attend union meetings. And the unions like it that way. Our union, at least, makes little effort to let members know when a meeting is coming up or where it will be.

It is definitely unfortunate that your union does not advertise when a meeting is coming but (something I don't have a problem with in my local) but you ask your union representatives yourself and ask them. You can't expect them to call all their members every time you have a meeting. If you truly are against the policies of your union leadership then attending the meetings should be a priority. There has to be a small effort on your part.

[Argus]

This isn't "anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism" but about fairness.

Don't make me vomit. As if fairness had a single thing to do with any of the people who hate Israel.

**added**

30 Years Of U.S. UN Vetoes, look at how many vetoes the US did against motion condemning state sponsored terrorism on Israel part.

The reason the UN is constantly condemning Israel is because the UN Muslim block pays off the ragged-assed third world block and together they outnumber everyone else.

But to sane people, watching the likes of Syria, Iran, Cuba and Zambia criticising Israel for its alleged human rights abuses creates only amusement, or perhaps indignation. Most of the countries which organize these regular sessions of hurling abuse at Israeal are brutal thugocracies where any expression of anti-government opinion leads to prison or death.

But again, that's not a problem for you, right? It's about "fairness".

[lost&outofcontrol]

This isn't "anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism" but about fairness.

Don't make me vomit. As if fairness had a single thing to do with any of the people who hate Israel.

Because I denounce Israeli atrocities, I'm an anti-Semite? (I agree that atrocities are happening on both sides by the way)

The reason the UN is constantly condemning Israel is because the UN Muslim block pays off the ragged-assed third world block and together they outnumber everyone else.

So it never has anything to do with actual human rights violation on the part of Israel?

**added**

Why do you not attend your union meetings by the way?

[Black Dog]

At 4:13 p.m yesterday, I wrote: "Sadly, it's only a matter of time before we start hearing of CUPE's 'anti-semetism.'"

At 6:38 a.m, we get this:

It’s time to call a spade a spade. CUPE (Ont.)’s action is, at worst, a primordial example of a hypocrisy unmasked revealing the true face of anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism, and, at best, a knee-jerk Canadian antipathy to any American ally. An antipathy that at its heart is fuelled by a self-doubt driven by a jealousy of others self-belief."

Israel's apologists are so predictable. But then what can one expect from an article with a whopper like this:

Israel is not saying it is creating an independent Palestinian state. It is saying it is recognizing it. Israel has no obligation to give any tools to build it. Who helped the 600,000 Jews, a tiny remnant of the 6,000,000 butchered in World War II, to build Israel? They declared the state. They bled for it. They built it. No American arms. No aid from anyone. Just the national will to live fortified by the sight of 50,000,000 Arabs thirsting for the blood of the Jews.

So those weren't British planes Israeli pilots flew in 1948? So Israel has not recieved $91 billion+ in aid from the U.S.A? "Self-belief"? More like self-delusion.

[August1991]

At 4:13 p.m yesterday, I wrote: :Sadly, it's only a matter of time before we start hearing of CUPE's "anti-semetism."

At 6:38 a.m, we get this...

BD, if CUPE wants to take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, of course they are going to be called anti-semitic, as well as many other epithets. What did you expect?

Which raises the greater question, why is CUPE getting involved at all? It does nothing to advance a whit the interests of its members and instead, it will just cause them harm.

If some CUPE members want to defend Palestinian rights and boycott Israel, then let them form their own association. A Canadian public sector union has no business taking sides on this issue. From a leftist perspective, it's just dumb and counterproductive. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[Black Dog]

Which raises the greater question, why is CUPE getting involved at all? It does nothing to advance a whit the interests of its members and instead, it will just cause them harm.

That is the more interesting question. I don't know the answer to that, but if I had to speculate, the rationale is that Israel's close ties with the west mean it is easier to affect change there than in a paraiah state like Iran. Of course that dosn't answer the question of why get involved at all. The only real asnwer there is that Israel/Palestine is both tied to and representative of the greater issues of Islam vs. the west, terrorism, etc.

I don't know if this will hurt CUPE Ontario or its members. But I do know this: reckless accusations of anti-Semetism cheapens the term.

[Argus]

Can you as as A CUPE member withold payment of dues if you wish?

I don't know to be honest, I've been told in the past that you could be it never came up. I'll try to find the info.

Because normal people don't attend union meetings. And the unions like it that way. Our union, at least, makes little effort to let members know when a meeting is coming up or where it will be.

It is definitely unfortunate that your union does not advertise when a meeting is coming but (something I don't have a problem with in my local) but you ask your union representatives yourself and ask them. You can't expect them to call all their members every time you have a meeting. If you truly are against the policies of your union leadership then attending the meetings should be a priority. There has to be a small effort on your part.

It would take more than a small effort. Unions are organized to insulate those at the top from those at the bottom, ie the ordinary members. As an example, I am a federal employee, and thus a member of PSAC, but not a direct member. I'm a member of something called the Union of Taxation Workers, which is an affiliate union with PSAC. From what I can gather, even the people at the top of the UTW have little stomach for PSAC and its leadership, but even they have little influence. The idea that I could somehow affect anything Nicole Turmel wants to do is absurd.

[GostHacked]

This is really starting to piss me off.

Unions should not get involved in this shit period. PERIOD.

Anti-Israel does NOT equate Anti-semitism. FFS people, it is the same as being anti-US, but not getting my hate on for the general public. It is the actions of the government that I cannot support. There is no equal in the world for this crap. Everytime someone bashes Israel and their deplorable treatment of the Palestinians, they are labeles anti-semite. Dude you just lost your WHOLE argument when you say that. Learn the difference. I am not a freakin jew hater or killer or anti-semite. But I really hate the way Isreal is going about things. See the difference ?? No?? Then you might just want to stop posting.

Yes the Palestinians have not helped their cause, but again, when Isreal was created in the Muslim/Arab backyard, someone is going to have a problem with it. Was the creating Isreal the right thing to do? And since I do not thing that was the right thing to do I am labeled an anti-semite??

What about during the cold war? Everyone hates Russia, oooh those bad Russians, out for global domination and want to kill America/freedom/liberty/democracy. And now they are part of the solution. Those who hated Russia, hated Russians. But there is no equal to 'anti-semite' in this case. THEY WERE DAMN COMMIE RUSSIANS right? If you label hating Isreal with anti-semitism, then that should be applied to all countries/people. You cannot just pick and choose to use the term when it seems fit.

Again for all you who do not quite understand

Anti-Zionist or Anti-Isreal IS NOT THE SAME AS anti-semitism.

/blame canada.