Alberta Threatens To Pull Out of Equalization

[Wilber]

We live in a free market enviroment, what ever oil company leases these rights to extract the raw material pays for that right..... whether the price paid for that right is high enough is up for debate, but to whom they pay it to is not....

I'm confused. Whose oil is it then ? I thought it was 'your' oil ?

Natural resources belong to the Provinces whether it is oil, trees or minerals. The companies that extract and process those resources pay for the privilege as well as royalties on the commodity itself. In some cases they may not pay enough but that is another debate. What is so confusing?

If Ottawa wants to tax Alberta's oil energy should they not do the same with hydro electric energy exported by Quebec? Perhaps they should and give the money to Newfoundland to compensate for what Quebec makes from reselling energy produced in Labrador. Fat chance.

[Riverwind]

It's the rest of the country sticking their noses in our business that's the problem......

I think Renagade has made the definitive statement on this issue. Alberta is part of Canada and, as a result, the federal gov't has the constitutional authority to levy taxes on everyone in the country, including Albertans. Furthermore, it is up to the federal gov't to decide how these taxes will be spent based on the priorities of the MPs elected by all Canadians.

There is nothing wrong with this arrangement and it is incorrect and downright silly to suggest that the federal gov't has no right to use money from 'Alberta's ' oil.

That said, it does make sense to complain about how the federal gov't collects more tax than it needs to fund activities within its consititutional juristiction and how this over taxation creates many distortions, inefficiencies and opportunities for political pandering. But this is a seperate issue that has nothing to do with 'oil' or 'Aberta's business'.

[Michael Hardner]

Natural resources belong to the Provinces whether it is oil, trees or minerals. The companies that extract and process those resources pay for the privilege as well as royalties on the commodity itself. In some cases they may not pay enough but that is another debate. What is so confusing?

So the oil never belongs to the company that extracts and processes it ? I think it does, which is why it's confusing that somebody who lives in Alberta considers it their oil. It might be their tax money, but that's a different thing isn't it ?

[stamps]

Canada is a lose confederation.... what the federal government does with it's tax money is everybody's business, but the federal government trying to control our resources through the back door by means of gross over-taxation of our oil & gas sector is not exceptable to Alberta brother, and it will not happen....

[stamps]

So the oil never belongs to the company that extracts and processes it ? I think it does, which is why it's confusing that somebody who lives in Alberta considers it their oil. It might be their tax money, but that's a different thing isn't it ?

Nice try..... Alberta nor Canada is Cuba brother....

[Wilber]

Natural resources belong to the Provinces whether it is oil, trees or minerals. The companies that extract and process those resources pay for the privilege as well as royalties on the commodity itself. In some cases they may not pay enough but that is another debate. What is so confusing?

So the oil never belongs to the company that extracts and processes it ? I think it does, which is why it's confusing that somebody who lives in Alberta considers it their oil. It might be their tax money, but that's a different thing isn't it ?

The oil belongs to the Province as long as it is in the ground. The trees on BC Crown land belong to the Province until they are logged. Of course they belong to the company at some point, just like they belong to you when you buy a liter of gas or a 2X4. What is so confusing?

[Michael Hardner]

Nice try.....

You need to be more clear. What did I get wrong ?

[Michael Hardner]

The oil belongs to the Province as long as it is in the ground. The trees on BC Crown land belong to the Province until they are logged. Of course they belong to the company at some point, just like they belong to you when you buy a liter of gas or a 2X4. What is so confusing?

Ok then. I find the jingoistic angle on a lot of these stories frustrating, and often these things are manipulated by certain parties for their own purposes, ie. politicians. Take Mr. Tobin's detainment of European fishing vessels off of Newfoundland a few years back. That won him votes in.... Toronto ?

Strange.

[Wilber]

The oil belongs to the Province as long as it is in the ground. The trees on BC Crown land belong to the Province until they are logged. Of course they belong to the company at some point, just like they belong to you when you buy a liter of gas or a 2X4. What is so confusing?

Ok then. I find the jingoistic angle on a lot of these stories frustrating, and often these things are manipulated by certain parties for their own purposes, ie. politicians. Take Mr. Tobin's detainment of European fishing vessels off of Newfoundland a few years back. That won him votes in.... Toronto ?

Strange.

I can see why Albertans are testy on this issue. While I have lived in BC most of my life, I spent over 5 years in Edmonton during the seventies. The place was booming because of the Arab oil embargo and the tar sands project was getting going. I moved to Toronto for a short time before moving back to BC. I can remember my Alberta plates getting me the finger occasionally while driving in Ontario. I was back in BC when the NEP got going strong, making Canadian oil for the domestic market substantially lower than the world price. Americans were flocking across the border to buy gas in BC. Of course the oil companies left Alberta because they could make more, exploring and drilling elsewhere and the bottom fell out the Alberta economy. I know people who just walked away from their homes and mortgages. Those who remember aren't about to let Ottawa do it to them again.

[Black Dog]

I see MH's point. Albertans will huff and puff about "their oil" when Ontario or the ROC eyes a piece of the action. Meanwhile, no one bats an eye when the Alberta government slashes royalty rates, allowing foreign oil companies to extract that same oil for a song and then sell it back to us at inflated prices. It'd be kinda funny if I didn't, like, live in Alberta...

[stamps]

Nice try.....

You need to be more clear. What did I get wrong ?

Your right Fidel, we do'nt own anything, it's all the big evil corporations fault, they control everything, let's nationalize the Oil and Gas sector so we can all benefit from OUR oil...... it's nice in theory but too bad it does'nt work that way in reality.... maybe a move to Cuba would be to your liking, Trudeau(spl) was a big fan....

[Wilber]

I see MH's point. Albertans will huff and puff about "their oil" when Ontario or the ROC eyes a piece of the action. Meanwhile, no one bats an eye when the Alberta government slashes royalty rates, allowing foreign oil companies to extract that same oil for a song and then sell it back to us at inflated prices. It'd be kinda funny if I didn't, like, live in Alberta...

I'm glad Albertans are huffing and puffing because they are sticking up for all provinces whether they know it or not. As for the rest, that's between Albertans and their government, not the rest of Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

I can remember my Alberta plates getting me the finger occasionally while driving in Ontario.

Are you sure it wasn't your driving ?

And do you realize that you're driving OUR cars ? ( Not really, but I'm using roughly the same logic that people use for natural resourced to manufactured goods produced in Ontario. I have never heard anybody here refer to the auto plants as 'our factories', but the time is coming when this will happen. )

[Michael Hardner]

Your right Fidel, we do'nt own anything, it's all the big evil corporations fault, they control everything, let's nationalize the Oil and Gas sector so we can all benefit from OUR oil...... it's nice in theory but too bad it does'nt work that way in reality.... maybe a move to Cuba would be to your liking, Trudeau(spl) was a big fan....

You're doing a great job of building castles in the sky there, that is to say building arguments that I would never make. I guess you missed the point, which is that jingoistic ideas of you 'owning' the oil industry aren't really that useful.

Your countryman (provinceman ?) Wilbur did a better job of explaining that the oil actually does belong to the province until it is extracted.

[politika]

Who does Ralphy think he is King of Canada? He can't do this its in the treaty or constitution.

He is apart of the federation and he should contribute to it and not complain because once the oil reserves run out they are goign to have to rely on the rest of Canada.

Once the oil in Alberta runs out Canada will not be able to squander away tax dollars on useless programs that beefit only a small minority of people such as bilingualism. This initiative has become nothing but a make work program for Fransophones, while the vast majority of Canadians speak English as the working language of business both in Canada and around the world.

Let's also not forget the many other wasteful programs initiated by Liberals like sponsorship, the gun registry, etc., etc. Sure we all nedd funding for necessities of life, and I'm sure Alberta does not mind contributing to the pot so that all Canadian's can have those necessities, but every time we turn around the Liberals were dreaming up new programs on which to piss away our tax-dollars. Quebec continues to while and will continue to whine until our federal government grows some balls and tells them that they are not a country, but merely just another province within Canada, and they deserve nothing more than the rest of the provinces are entitled to. If they don't like it the option of leaving is always available, and please don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Good point, and we are at an agrement

But I was not refering to Quebec, I refered to all the provinces geting equalization.

[Black Dog]

And do you realize that you're driving OUR cars ?

[killjoy]

I live in Edmonton Alberta. Was born here. Alberta is a fickle gold-digger.

Seems to me all this anti-socialist, anti-centralist talk comes at a convenient time for Alberta. In the beginning she, (and most in her Western neighbourhood), was always knocking at the East neighbours door for handouts and support. There were times she was completely dependant on others for her very exisitance. She was poor as dirt from her conception right up until the 1950's when she discovered her 'inner worth' and then everyone from around the world came a courtin'. Of course she still needed a little help from her neighbours to get it all off the ground.

Now's she’s' rich and independent. "Canada? Oh I remember him. I had to break it off because he was too 'clingy'. Besides, what has he done for me lately?".

.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes... history is a strange and bulbous thing, isn't it ? I believe the west was also the birthplace of the NDP... then called the CCF.

[killjoy]

I believe the west was also the birthplace of the NDP... then called the CCF.

Oh yeah...Farmers....forgot all about them…the staple of any good social/unionist moment. What ever happened to them in Alberta anyway? Oh yeah. They starved when their natural habitat was increasingly encroached on by wolf packs of derricks.

Yeah, 'cording' Ralphie we don't need farmers any more either, Canada....can you take 'em with you? That's right. Don't let the door hit yer ass on the way out, eh?

Yes... history is a strange and bulbous thing, isn't it ?

Well depends when history starts, eh? I mean if history for someone begins, in the 1970's like it kinda does for many, then yes perhaps ol'Alberta looks like a rather unloved woman...poor gal. :-)

I'm not sayin'....I'm just sayin'....y'know?

.

[Leader Circle]

I can remember my Alberta plates getting me the finger occasionally while driving in Ontario.

Are you sure it wasn't your driving ?

And do you realize that you're driving OUR cars ? ( Not really, but I'm using roughly the same logic that people use for natural resourced to manufactured goods produced in Ontario. I have never heard anybody here refer to the auto plants as 'our factories', but the time is coming when this will happen. )

Actually, My mega cab dodge(we like the big trucks here in Alberta..LOL) was built in Mexico, not in Ontario.

The constitution says the resources belong to the provinces so, I cannot see where that point gets cloudy. Quebec certainly won't be sharing their hydro dollars with NS or NB or anyone in between, so why should Alberta share their money that way?

The problem MH is not the equalization payment itself, it is the basis of it. The"have nots" want the payment to be based on the amount of oil revenue and that is where Albertans have a problem. The could base it on anything but the oil & nobody would complain. Albertans stake their claim to the oil, nobody is going to take that away again.

[Leader Circle]

I live in Edmonton Alberta. Was born here. Alberta is a fickle gold-digger.

Seems to me all this anti-socialist, anti-centralist talk comes at a convenient time for Alberta. In the beginning she, (and most in her Western neighbourhood), was always knocking at the East neighbours door for handouts and support. There were times she was completely dependant on others for her very exisitance. She was poor as dirt from her conception right up until the 1950's when she discovered her 'inner worth' and then everyone from around the world came a courtin'. Of course she still needed a little help from her neighbours to get it all off the ground.

Now's she’s' rich and independent. "Canada? Oh I remember him. I had to break it off because he was too 'clingy'. Besides, what has he done for me lately?".

.

I think your history is a bit muddled. Alberta came calling when Trudeau(not a word I like using)royally screwed the west and Ontario(the continual have) province told them to take a hike, so for Albertans to be anti anything towards Ontario is par for the course.

I am sorry you feel that way about Alberta KJ, maybe you should leave Edmonton and meet some of the people that remember the tough days and maybe your attitude would change!

Alberta is the only place in Canada left where you can truly be free financially, and not dependant on the government and that pisses off the ROC. Yes, the oil is what made Alberta rich, why would anyone want to take that away from them? What is wrong with people having money? Is that a crime now? Tax them to death, but make sure they have great social programs to back that up. Just doesn't fly here.

[Black Dog]

I think your history is a bit muddled. Alberta came calling when Trudeau(not a word I like using)royally screwed the west and Ontario(the continual have) province told them to take a hike, so for Albertans to be anti anything towards Ontario is par for the course.

kj's point was that Albertans remember the NEP, but forget the times when they were the have-nots and the rest of the country bailed them out. You just proved it.

[killjoy]

Alberta came calling when Trudeau(not a word I like using)royally screwed the west and Ontario(the continual have) province told them to take a hike, so for Albertans to be anti anything towards Ontario is par for the course.

I am sorry you feel that way about Alberta KJ, maybe you should leave Edmonton and meet some of the people that remember the tough days and maybe your attitude would change!

The ol' "If you don't think like me you should leave". My history muddled? Hmm lemmie see. There was the '20's when we were completely dependant on the East. Then there was the '30's when we were completely dependant on the East. Then there was the '40's when we were completely dependant on the East. Through-out there was the common theme of having to actually pay, or force (if they wanted to in the country) immigrants to come out here and make something of the place....As you point out your history seems to begin in the Trudeau era.

Normally I would link you to this sorta thing but if none of this even rings a bell then I really don't want to bother.

Alberta is the only place in Canada left where you can truly be free financially,

Yep. Great to be lucky. Great to not need money from anyone else and so now it's time for more independence. You're really only supporting what I said. History for people like you in Alberta conveniently begins in the ‘70’s.

.

[stamps]

Your right Fidel, we do'nt own anything, it's all the big evil corporations fault, they control everything, let's nationalize the Oil and Gas sector so we can all benefit from OUR oil...... it's nice in theory but too bad it does'nt work that way in reality.... maybe a move to Cuba would be to your liking, Trudeau(spl) was a big fan....

You're doing a great job of building castles in the sky there, that is to say building arguments that I would never make. I guess you missed the point, which is that jingoistic ideas of you 'owning' the oil industry aren't really that useful.

Your countryman (provinceman ?) Wilbur did a better job of explaining that the oil actually does belong to the province until it is extracted.

Your the one building castles brother, the point that the province owns the resources until it is extracted is obvious, your advocating that it should not, that the country should, which it does'nt, and any attempt to change it because certain regions noses are out of joint will not be accepted by Alberta, you can take that to the bank brother........ your the one trying to wrestle away what is rightfully Alberta's, no matter what spin or fruitless agrument you come up with to justify doing so....

[stamps]

Alberta came calling when Trudeau(not a word I like using)royally screwed the west and Ontario(the continual have) province told them to take a hike, so for Albertans to be anti anything towards Ontario is par for the course.

I am sorry you feel that way about Alberta KJ, maybe you should leave Edmonton and meet some of the people that remember the tough days and maybe your attitude would change!

The ol' "If you don't think like me you should leave". My history muddled? Hmm lemmie see. There was the '20's when we were completely dependant on the East. Then there was the '30's when we were completely dependant on the East. Then there was the '40's when we were completely dependant on the East. Through-out there was the common theme of having to actually pay, or force (if they wanted to in the country) immigrants to come out here and make something of the place....As you point out your history seems to begin in the Trudeau era.

Normally I would link you to this sorta thing but if none of this even rings a bell then I really don't want to bother.

Alberta is the only place in Canada left where you can truly be free financially,

Yep. Great to be lucky. Great to not need money from anyone else and so now it's time for more independence. You're really only supporting what I said. History for people like you in Alberta conveniently begins in the ‘70’s.

.

History for the people in Alberta begins with the people whom came out here, whatever that time was, and for my family it was the late 1800's and early 1900's, and all this so called help prior to 1947 you say Canada provided was token at best, when we first were developing our Oil and Gas sector in the province we went to the federal government and bay street for money to help, and were turned away, we then went to New York and with help from Wall street and our brothers from Texas and Oklahoma developed it..... I would suggest that you learn your history Killjoy...... BTW I'm a proud native Calgarian....