A serious discussion on racial profiling respecting mass murder and se

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

we also need to talk about Caucasian involvment in serial killing and mass murder. Bratton is right, it is only harming us to live in denial when we could be doing something proactive to halt this problem. That makes sense, and I'm glad that you've come on board with this discussion.

much appreciated.

Looks like you are dealing with an 'experienced flamebaiter'.

Really, though, serial killers and mass murderers generally cannot be 'stopped' until they are caught, or they kill themselves to avoid capture. The 'misfits of society', as it were. Unless it can be shown that race is somehow a cause, (rather than 'culture'), it is rather disingenuous to claim a 'race' can be 'helped' to stop the abberant behaviour of a few individuals.

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy:

"Aggressive assimilation policies like the residential school system are responsible for the insecure family situations found in Native communities today. Residential schools attempted to strip away Aboriginal culture from Aboriginal children. Studies have shown that children who survived the residential schooling system report overwhelming feelings of loss, depression and loneliness, all a result of being taken away from their family and culture.

This accounts for those individuals who attended residential schools, however, a reasonable question to ask at this time would be: How does the suicide problem affect those who did not attend any of the residentials schools? In assessing the suicide problem, researchers must often look at a variety of reasons for the self destructive patterns in Aboriginal populations. In other words, determining the cause of suicide can not always be reduced to a single event in an individual's life, but must be looked at in the context of their own life situation."

How does suicide effect those who didn't go to residential school? The common answer in Indian Country is that abuse (of whatever variety) has a generational impact. Even the RCAP reports on this impact. When I refer to generational impact, I mean that if Grandpa went to residential school and was abused physically, emotionally and sexually, then the chances of him repeating that act on his own children or on nieces and nephews is far greater. If Grandpa's kids turn into abusers because of what they suffered, then a whole other generation -who never stepped foot in a residential school- are now impacted. Couple these emotions with addictive substances, and then you have the beginnings of a suicide problem.

still, we are beginning to drift off-topic. The other two posts you put up looking at serial killers and mass murderers is very interesting. In essence, we can probably say that there appears to be different "layers" of mass murder, and that serial killers and mass murderers are very different.

This hypothesis I agree with. Mass murderers are always a "one-shot" deal, whereas serial killers like the "thrill" of repeating their crime, and do go to lengths to get caught.

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy: As promised, I brought along links:

How many serial killers do we have in Canada? I only know of Olson, Hamolka/Bernardo, Pig Farmer and the new one now (killing prostitutes?). The numbers of serial killers we have is nothing to be scared off....compared to other more disturbing AND HORRIFIC occurences.

Wikipedia actually has both Canadian serial killers and Canadian mass murderers as topics. Serial killers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cana..._serial_killers

and mass murderers are here:

Wikipedia-Canadian mass murderers

Now, I do have some issues with both categories. In the serial killers category, they include Thomas Cream, who was a serial killer from the 1800's. I do not include him in discussion because we've had more activity of this nature since post WW-II.

I find the mass murderers more distressing because it misses Pierre Lebrun (OC Transpo shooter) and Victor hoffman, the Shell Lake murderer. Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode, nor do I want to use the recent Biker murders or the murder of 14 people in a vault in Montreal because these are more related to purposeful criminal activity.

I've checked through all the names and, with the exception of Lepine and his half-Algerian heritage, all are Caucasian-canadian. There are 10 serial killers (adding Pickton) and 6 mass-murderers (adding Hoffman and Lebrun) in the post WW-II era.

I hope this is a good base to start from.

To be honest, I completely forgot about Fabrikant. I was living in the bush at the time, so news items usually reached me a bit later than everyone else with a T.V. or radio. I found out about Gorbachov's incarceration and Yeltsin's rise to fame after it had all transpired, and they were about at the same time.

[Temagami Scourge]

Mr. Fleabag:

Looks like you are dealing with an 'experienced flamebaiter'.

Really, though, serial killers and mass murderers generally cannot be 'stopped' until they are caught, or they kill themselves to avoid capture. The 'misfits of society', as it were. Unless it can be shown that race is somehow a cause, (rather than 'culture'), it is rather disingenuous to claim a 'race' can be 'helped' to stop the abberant behaviour of a few individuals.

1) I'm not trying to flamebait. I'm raising awareness. I believe that discussing social ills that can impact on greater society can be done as long at it is in an appropriate manner. We don't participate in mindless finger-pointing on this thread. If people want that, they can go to Caledonia.

2) I see what you infer regarding how disingenuous it is to claim a race can be helped. However, if you look at my above post on serial killers and mass murderers, all are Caucasian. I also note that, although I agree that serial killing and mass murder can happen anywhere in the world, caused by anyone, that is clearly not the case in Canada.

I will agree that, if we were to help those in the Caucasian-Canadian community, we would have to divide assistance to the French and non-French caucasian communities. In this respect, there may be a cultural component as the Franco-Canadian community does appear to have a number of differences and norms not shared by the non-Franco-Canadian caucasian community. This too, could make for some differences.

To make matters even more poignant, the Canadian serial killers are largely Anglo-Canadians, and the mass-murderers are largely Franco-Canadian just from going on names. This is definitely where culture could be a defining feature in this argument.

[betsy]

Betsy re: religion and Aboriginal suicide

Can you provide a credible link that will back up your statement please. Strange that I've never read anything that even hinted anything to do with religion regarding suicides.

I say "strange", because you'd think that the media will jump on this very juicy theory and have a field day bashing Christianity (which they have been doing for any opportunity they get).

I don't think any opposition from the churches will stop anyone...especially the Liberals and the NDP...from doing any studies. On the contrary, any opposition from the churches is a sure-fire way to get the Liberals to proceed right on ahead.

No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back.

Religion was not mentioned in any of the studies. Btw, what is AFN and COO?

[betsy]

Betsy: As promised, I brought along links:

How many serial killers do we have in Canada? I only know of Olson, Hamolka/Bernardo, Pig Farmer and the new one now (killing prostitutes?). The numbers of serial killers we have is nothing to be scared off....compared to other more disturbing AND HORRIFIC occurences.

Wikipedia actually has both Canadian serial killers and Canadian mass murderers as topics. Serial killers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cana..._serial_killers

and mass murderers are here:

Wikipedia-Canadian mass murderers

Now, I do have some issues with both categories. In the serial killers category, they include Thomas Cream, who was a serial killer from the 1800's. I do not include him in discussion because we've had more activity of this nature since post WW-II.

I find the mass murderers more distressing because it misses Pierre Lebrun (OC Transpo shooter) and Victor hoffman, the Shell Lake murderer. Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode, nor do I want to use the recent Biker murders or the murder of 14 people in a vault in Montreal because these are more related to purposeful criminal activity.

I've checked through all the names and, with the exception of Lepine and his half-Algerian heritage, all are Caucasian-canadian. There are 10 serial killers (adding Pickton) and 6 mass-murderers (adding Hoffman and Lebrun) in the post WW-II era.

I hope this is a good base to start from.

To be honest, I completely forgot about Fabrikant. I was living in the bush at the time, so news items usually reached me a bit later than everyone else with a T.V. or radio. I found out about Gorbachov's incarceration and Yeltsin's rise to fame after it had all transpired, and they were about at the same time.

Mass murder stats is drastically changed by now. A person who murders two or more members of his own family falls into the category of a mass murderer. We've seen a slew of them happening steadily in the last few years. And they belong to various racial groups.

[betsy]

Betsy re: religion and Aboriginal suicide

No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back.

According to this link,

"Metis intellectual and activist, Howard Adams, argues that this eurocentric myth, that Aboriginal people are inferior to the Euro-Canadian society, has been ingrained into Aboriginal consciousness. In Adams' own words:

Racial stereotypes also play an important role in shaping a Native's consciousness. Subjective feelings, such as inferiority, are an integral part of consciousness, and work together with the objective reality of poverty and deprivation to shape a Native's world view. Society's ideological system determines one's viewpoint and shapes one's consciousness--most often for life (Adams 1995: 37)."

http://www.ualberta.ca/~nativest/pim/suicide.html

--------------------------------

I tend to believe this.

Some wrongs may have been done to natives in the past....however, no acknowledgments or apologies...or even compensations will ever change what is happening now, unless everyone works together to make that change. And that "everyone", includes most especially the natives too.

One native woman activist (cannot remember her name) criticized the kind of "special status" the natives are getting. She sees how the welfare system is destroying her people.

And she is right.

It is hard enough to go through the growing pains like any other teenagers....but the native youths have more to endure.

It is hard to build one's self-esteem when he knows he actually totally depends on another for his existence....and from the same people his own people have been warning him about.

It is hard to shake off feelings of hopelessness and despair when he is constantly reminded of the painful past by his own people, and therefore he is owed...to be always on his guard....that he is different...that the world outside is out to screw him up everytime... and ending up carrying this simmering anger inside.

It is hard when he seems to always be on the other side of the fence looking in.

And not being able to contribute to society adds to the feeling of being "useless"....inadequacy....and failure in achievements. So self-worth of a youth's assessment of himself is not encouraging....but rather grimly daunting.

Society may have this stereo-typing of a people, but this very same assessment is somehow only a mirror reflection too on how a person regards himself.

These subjective feelings are being caused more by the natives in the reserves....and being passed on to the future generation.

And if all those other social ills are rampant within the reserves....then it means the reserve is not doing the people any good. It is destroying your youth. And this will only perpetuate.

Self-pity and finger-pointing will not change this.

I am not expalining myself well here....I'm trying.

[August1991]

I have flipped through this ridiculous thread and although I think you have insightful points to make Temogami, you would do well to avoid the flame-baiting you are engaging in (and you are engaging in it - your comments are largely tongue in cheek and you know it). The moderator here is lenient but harsh when he decides to intervene.

Nevertheless, I'll comment and I might as well start with this post:

Just as Bratton says that we need to talk about the possibility of Jamaican involvment in gang crime, we also need to talk about Caucasian involvment in serial killing and mass murder. Bratton is right, it is only harming us to live in denial when we could be doing something proactive to halt this problem.

First, when police are looking for a serial or mass murderer, they frequently engage in racial profiling. Based solely on a pyschological assessment, they state openly that they are looking for a "white middle-aged male", as was the case in teh Washington sniper case.

Second, the western white world is doing alot to deal with this phenomenon of serial and mass murder among its ranks. There are police, judiciary, prisons, pyschologists. These are all white people dealing with a problem caused by white people.

Third, Temagami, you have been given several examples of non-white serial or mass murders. You have done nothing to show in any demonstrable way that white people are disproportionately overrepresented among the murderers.

Only white Canadians? Here are some more anecdotal examples: The World Trade Center, several thousand killed at the hands of a few Saudi mass murderers. Rwanda, several million blacks killed by black mass murderers. How about Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. It is suggested that Chinese mass murderers, under Mao, killed in the tens of millions.

Frankly, I think white North Americans are doing fairly well. We devote a large number of resources to dealing with the few mass murderers among our midst.

-----

Temogami, your posts are flaming because while you are ostensibly talking about white Canadian mass murderers, that's not really what your intention is at all. Instead, you think you're trying to turn the tables on the posters here by using the idea of racial profiling against them. Well, it doesn't work.

It's a fact that Canadian prisons hold a far larger percentage of Native Indians than are found in the general population. Pointing out that mass murderers tend to be white males doesn't change that fact, anymore than pointing to a female shoplifter somehow changes the fact that most people in prison are men.

IOW, if you think you are helping whites to understand better Native Indians, pointing to white mass murderers is not the way to go.

With all that said, I'll add a final point. The hallmark of North American life is freedom of the individual, and that implies many things. For many on this planet elsewhere, family, community, social, religious pressures confine individual freedom.

Now, you tell me, which society will be more successful inthe long run: the society that allows individual freedom (with its good and bad points) or the society that tries to llimit an individual's choices?

[betsy]

I have to bring up suicide, Tem since somehow I do think that some, if not most factors that cause mass muder-suicides is the same as that of simple suicides.

The numbers of suicides in the reserves, along with the rising numbers of mass-murders (which now shows not confined to one particular racial group), is more cause for concern than that of serial killings.

[betsy]

Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode,

Nevertheless, it stills fall under Mass Murder. Just like the murder of those women by Lepine.

The target or the focus was on women....something about that had obviously triggered the spree.

[betsy]

To make matters even more poignant, the Canadian serial killers are largely Anglo-Canadians, and the mass-murderers are largely Franco-Canadian just from going on names. This is definitely where culture could be a defining feature in this argument.

How can we assume a person's identity by the sound of his name?

Some blacks have French-sounding names. How do we know about a person through his name....or even through his picture? Racial mix is very common!

We have a lot Filipinos who you would mistake for whites! I could never guess the difference between some Filipino name or a Mexican/Spanish.

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy re: religion and Aboriginal suicide

Can you provide a credible link that will back up your statement please. Strange that I've never read anything that even hinted anything to do with religion regarding suicides.

I say "strange", because you'd think that the media will jump on this very juicy theory and have a field day bashing Christianity (which they have been doing for any opportunity they get).

I don't think any opposition from the churches will stop anyone...especially the Liberals and the NDP...from doing any studies. On the contrary, any opposition from the churches is a sure-fire way to get the Liberals to proceed right on ahead.

No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back.

Religion was not mentioned in any of the studies. Btw, what is AFN and COO?

The AFN is the Assembly of First Nations and the COO is the Chiefs of Ontario. I know many folk who work with both organizations.

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy: As promised, I brought along links:

How many serial killers do we have in Canada? I only know of Olson, Hamolka/Bernardo, Pig Farmer and the new one now (killing prostitutes?). The numbers of serial killers we have is nothing to be scared off....compared to other more disturbing AND HORRIFIC occurences.

Wikipedia actually has both Canadian serial killers and Canadian mass murderers as topics. Serial killers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cana..._serial_killers

and mass murderers are here:

Wikipedia-Canadian mass murderers

Now, I do have some issues with both categories. In the serial killers category, they include Thomas Cream, who was a serial killer from the 1800's. I do not include him in discussion because we've had more activity of this nature since post WW-II.

I find the mass murderers more distressing because it misses Pierre Lebrun (OC Transpo shooter) and Victor hoffman, the Shell Lake murderer. Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode, nor do I want to use the recent Biker murders or the murder of 14 people in a vault in Montreal because these are more related to purposeful criminal activity.

I've checked through all the names and, with the exception of Lepine and his half-Algerian heritage, all are Caucasian-canadian. There are 10 serial killers (adding Pickton) and 6 mass-murderers (adding Hoffman and Lebrun) in the post WW-II era.

I hope this is a good base to start from.

To be honest, I completely forgot about Fabrikant. I was living in the bush at the time, so news items usually reached me a bit later than everyone else with a T.V. or radio. I found out about Gorbachov's incarceration and Yeltsin's rise to fame after it had all transpired, and they were about at the same time.

Mass murder stats is drastically changed by now. A person who murders two or more members of his own family falls into the category of a mass murderer. We've seen a slew of them happening steadily in the last few years. And they belong to various racial groups.

not drastically, but changed yes. I was giving this some thought to see where a good cut-off point would be. I don't agree with someone who kills two or more family members because that is a family thing and not an "open-up-on-the-crowd" thing. I think the best way to get around this bugaboo is to call "going postal" style killings mass murders, and internal family murder-suicide, or straight murders as "mass killings".

In that way, it may be possible to avoid confusion. Under your proposal, the kid that killed the two people in the GTA last Friday while roadracing would qualify as a "mass murderer", and that is clearly not what we are trying to define.

[Temagami Scourge]

I tend to believe this.

Some wrongs may have been done to natives in the past....Society may have this stereo-typing of a people, but this very same assessment is somehow only a mirror reflection too on how a person regards himself.

These subjective feelings are being caused more by the natives in the reserves....and being passed on to the future generation.

And if all those other social ills are rampant within the reserves....then it means the reserve is not doing the people any good. It is destroying your youth. And this will only perpetuate.

Self-pity and finger-pointing will not change this.

I am not expalining myself well here....I'm trying.

This sounds interesting, and I've seen similar situations myself, but it does not dismiss the type of racisim that the Six Nations' people endured, and continue to endure, at Kaledonia, nor items like Harper's breaking of the Kelowna Accord. Issues like these tend to lend credence to the idea that non-natives dislike you, and this isn't even including the Argus', Geoffrey or Scribblets of this web who also go to lengths to stereotype Aboriginal people.

However, none of this has anything to do with serial killing and mass murder in Canada.

Let's try to stick to the topic at hand.

[Temagami Scourge]

I have flipped through this ridiculous thread and although I think you have insightful points to make Temogami, you would do well to avoid the flame-baiting

Flame baiting? I'm beginning to think that flamebaiting is something in the eye of the beholder considering the manner in which you and Argus complain about this thread. In my quote, there is nothing to indicate a racist bent, is there? If I was here blaming serial killing on some inherent trait, THEN we cross the line.

But that is not what is occuring.

you are engaging in (and you are engaging in it - your comments are largely tongue in cheek and you know it).

Thanks for reading my mind.

Nevertheless, I'll comment and I might as well start with this post:'Temagami Scourge' post date 'May 30 2006, 02:15 PM']Just as Bratton says that we need to talk about the possibility of Jamaican involvment in gang crime, we also need to talk about Caucasian involvment in serial killing and mass murder. Bratton is right, it is only harming us to live in denial when we could be doing something proactive to halt this problem.

August, you have taken the above quote out of context to try to prove your point. You did not include the first sentence I wrote which clarifies this. Even then, what is so terrible about the quote? I have no problem discussing the social ills that have befallen Native people. I do not shirk from the fact that Natives are found at the top of all the bad social indices, and at the bottom of the good ones. All of us here have commented on Jamaican crime like we owned it, so what is so different about serial killing and mass murder? Don't tell me you're in denial too August.

Look, I understand how it feels when people talk about the social ills of my race, but I can see farther along and understand that denial does not lead to addressing problems. In this manner, many Aboriginal people are actively working to address our social ills, and I'm happy to see that a great deal of progress has been made. Many more Aboriginal youth are going to school and graduating from post-secondary education. The Jamaican-Canadian community has been working hard for the past few years to overcome "gangsta" attitudes (unlike what our peers say here...oh, and Gwyn Morgan too). Surely if many Canadians can stand up and count themselves in, then why can't the same be true for our Caucasian brothers and sisters.

...and I'll say this again: Serial Killing and mass murder can happen anywhere in the world, and can be committed by anyone of any race, HOWEVER, IN CANADA serial killings and mass murder have been the domain of one subgroup of society. That indicates a social problem. I want to help overcome that problem, as well as not become a victim.

Second, the western white world is doing alot to deal with this phenomenon of serial and mass murder among its ranks. There are police, judiciary, prisons, pyschologists. These are all white people dealing with a problem caused by white people.

See, the above poses a problem for me because you describe a "white" world. Yes, North American society has done a lot of studies on this issue, and then you say that the police , judiciary, correctional officials and pyschologists are all white and dealing with a white problem. August, I can't have this kind of racist tripe on this thread, so please watch what you say, and don't assume that we are all "white".

Third, Temagami, you have been given several examples of non-white serial or mass murders. You have done nothing to show in any demonstrable way that white people are disproportionately overrepresented among the murderers.

August, I've provided numerous examples of non-caucasian serial killers and mass-murderers as well, but, let me repeat again: I'm talking about the Canadian experience. Not the U.S., Not Asia, Not Europe nor Africa, but CANADA. I have listed Canadian serial killers and mass murderers in another post. I've gone through each one to ensure that I'm not in error -which if I was I'd note-, and lord help me, but I'm not.

Frankly, I think white North Americans are doing fairly well. We devote a large number of resources to dealing with the few mass murderers among our midst.

I agree with the research aspects, but I don't believe much has been done socially. What programs have our provincial governments enacted that bring children out of welfare? none, and yet research shows that a number of serial killers and mass murderers resided in poverty. Instead, many Canadians yell and scream that we coddle the poor and give too much, or they are serial malingerers, all of which is crap and is based on the handful of welfare cases people have some knowledge about.

Are we doing anything to find the narcissists at school? No. Are people calling CAS when they see a kid killing small animals? No, but we do for almost anything else.

I think we need to do more.

Temogami, your posts are flaming because while you are ostensibly talking about white Canadian mass murderers, that's not really what your intention is at all. Instead, you think you're trying to turn the tables on the posters here by using the idea of racial profiling against them. Well, it doesn't work.

Am I, or are you in denial? Which one? It basically comes down to feeling whether or not we feel there is a problem. I think there is, you don't feel that way. That seems to be the crux of the argument.

It's a fact that Canadian prisons hold a far larger percentage of Native Indians than are found in the general population. Pointing out that mass murderers tend to be white males doesn't change that fact, anymore than pointing to a female shoplifter somehow changes the fact that most people in prison are men.

You've gone off-topic again. I don't see the relevance between incarcerated Aboriginal people and serial killers and mass-murderers.

IOW, if you think you are helping whites to understand better Native Indians, pointing to white mass murderers is not the way to go.

What? I'm not trying to help anyone better understand Native people. how can you say that anyway given the ingrained beliefs that we already see on these threads! I couldn't possibly change anyone's minds because most are already set. Just look at the Six Nations thread. Read posts #3 and #4...the one's that attracted me to this site. The ideas and notions in those posts never changed an iota, and in fact they still pop up.

listen August, don't get any idea that I'm some Noble Indian here to set the record straight. I've learned a long time ago that people in this country by and large already have preconceived ideas that are unshakeable. I know damn well that the minute my back is turned, that someone makes a comment. If you haven't figured that out yet, then we live in different worlds, but to me, that is reality.

Just be thankful we don't have any Jamaicans on this thread.

With all that said, I'll add a final point. The hallmark of North American life is freedom of the individual, and that implies many things. For many on this planet elsewhere, family, community, social, religious pressures confine individual freedom.

Now, you tell me, which society will be more successful inthe long run: the society that allows individual freedom (with its good and bad points) or the society that tries to llimit an individual's choices?

The society that lets the individual know that they are free to do as they please as long as they do not harm others, and that the individual abides by the social norms. That is the perfect society.

but between you and I, it's too bad the Indian Act only affects me.

[Argus]

Argus:

Please. I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place. However, given the rules of this forum I've been warned previously by the moderator for responding in kind to people who have little interest in anything other than insults and attitude. That's why I report such things now. If the moderator says race baiting is okay with him then I'll respond appropriately to you too.

I suggest you heed the moderator's warnings. He has provided you with excellent advice on how to overcome your proclivity for pointless chatter.

If he was worried about pointless chatter, race baiting and insults he'd have closed this thread.

However, I do find this sentence deeply disturbing: "I've dealt with your kind on many other forums. I have no trouble putting you in your place." Do you have a problem with Aboriginal people using forums?

I have a problem with liars, flamebaiters and trollers. As for aborigines, the only ones I feel contempt for are the ones who constantly snivel about their victimhood.

[betsy]

Under your proposal, the kid that killed the two people in the GTA last Friday while roadracing would qualify as a "mass murderer", and that is clearly not what we are trying to define.

No. There was no deliberate intention to murder. Although the racers were racing illegally, the killing was accidental.

[betsy]

I don't agree with someone who kills two or more family members because that is a family thing and not an "open-up-on-the-crowd" thing. I think the best way to get around this bugaboo is to call "going postal" style killings mass murders, and internal family murder-suicide, or straight murders as "mass killings".

But it still meets the profiles of mass-murder provided by experts.

A husband who just lost a job and up to his eyeballs in debts may just "go bonkers" upon coming home to a room full of noisy, fighting kids and a wife who just happened to start a fight at the wrong time. He snaps. That's just it....as experts say, who knows what really caused them to act the way they did. It could have been just one particular word from the wife (or from any of the kids) that made him go for the axe or the shotgun. It could've been just the on-going irritating bling-bling from the nintendo.

We've heard of neighbors shocked and unable to believe that their neighbor could've done such a thing: "He seemd a nice and quiet man."

If experts cannot conclude....how can we? We cannot just take all family-related mass murders out of the equation, for whatever reasons you may have in wanting to exclude them...because that will definitely render this topic (and the attempt at "serious discussion" and understanding we're aiming for), a complete farce.

[betsy]

listen August, don't get any idea that I'm some Noble Indian here to set the record straight. I've learned a long time ago that people in this country by and large already have preconceived ideas that are unshakeable. I know damn well that the minute my back is turned, that someone makes a comment. If you haven't figured that out yet, then we live in different worlds, but to me, that is reality.

Just be thankful we don't have any Jamaicans on this thread.

We all have pre-conceived ideas that are unshakeable. The whites have it...the blacks, the reds, the browns, the yellows, the greens....they all have it.

[newbie]

We must ask ourselves: What can we do to assist our Euro-Canadian brethren overcome this insidious desire to stalk and murder, or just blow up one day and kill a bunch of people at a workplace, or other public venue?

How can the non-Euro-Canadian population help our brothers and sisters? How can we protect ourselves from wanton acts of slaughter?

What a ridiculous thread. At the rist of echoing some other comments wouldn't it be wise to look at the reasons why "your" people are occupying most of the spaces in Canadian jails before judging other races as potential killing machines? As for "Euro-Canadian," I was born here and am not a hypenated Canadian. My grandparents were born in other countries and left their culture and language behind when they moved here. They wanted to totally integrate into the existing society. Instead of racially profiling, how about working towards the definition and identification of all Canadians being equal.

[betsy]

This sounds interesting, and I've seen similar situations myself, but it does not dismiss the type of racisim that the Six Nations' people endured, and continue to endure, at Kaledonia, nor items like Harper's breaking of the Kelowna Accord. Issues like these tend to lend credence to the idea that non-natives dislike you, and this isn't even including the Argus', Geoffrey or Scribblets of this web who also go to lengths to stereotype Aboriginal people.

But what about the tax-payers who had endured? And are continuing to endure? You seem to think that the stereo-typing of natives stem from racism alone. Have you stopped to think that this opinion comes from a segment of society so frustrated at seeing their taxes practically going wherever-nobody-knows and hardly seeing any improvements at all?

It's like having someone living in your house for free while we toil at work each and every day....who would not even help with the house chores. Then have the gall to complain about the quality of food and your skills at cooking when you put food on the dinner table....and complain about the spots you miss in cleaning the house!

Natives have been given lands. They have been given brand new housing. They don't pay any taxes.

Provided with a budget to improve your situation (education, sanitation, etc..,) They all get welfare.

Yes, this land have been invaded by whites...followed by various peoples from all over thge world. But it had also been made to what it is now by all these peoples who had come to this place. Too bad. That's the history of this land. Same as the history of my land (which had been colonized by the Spaniards...then freed by the US). If we can't defend it...we lose it.

Be thankful that it was not the Germans who conquered and staked a claim in this land....otherwise, your people would have been among the first to go en masse during Hitler's time. Be thankful that the people who came to this shores were not brutally hostile and intolerant, without any qualms and sense of moral values, and had not decided to rid this place of tribes and natives when they came to stake their claim.

True, that racism still exists....but it exists in every groups in various forms or degrees. It does exists among natives too. Racism is part of life.

[Temagami Scourge]

But what about the tax-payers who had endured?

What, like the two cars, 2.5 kids, the dog, a home, freedom of choice, freedom to pursue their religion in peace?

Boy...I'd sure like to be a tax payer.

Oh geez...I am! I don't live on reserve so I do pay taxes, and as a taxpayer, I think the government has screwed up...but i have to rely on other taxpayers to change the government and hold them accountable.

And are continuing to endure?

Who, the folks at Kaledonia? You mean the taxpayers who are refusing to let their kids play the Six Nations youth baseball team because they are still mad at Six Nations? You mean people who'd use their own kids to strike back at those "non-tax-paying natives".

Well, you have me beat. I can't think of anyway of acting lower, so I guess you are right about taxpayers.

You seem to think that the stereo-typing of natives stem from racism alone.

Well I've managed to screen out Santa and the Tooth Fairy as instigators of anti-Native racism, so you tell me where this flows from? I'm pretty sure neither you or I created it, but we sure like to participate in it, eh Betsy?

Have you stopped to think that this opinion comes from a segment of society so frustrated at seeing their taxes practically going wherever-nobody-knows and hardly seeing any improvements at all?

Heck no....these anti-native attitudes come from all social classes, the rich, the poor etc. The common denominator appears to be the same as this thread.

likewise, if you are upset with your tax dollars, why are you blaming Native people? They have nothing to do with how the government spends our money. Talk to your MP, or write your MP and ask him/her to make Natives illegal if it galls you so much.

It's like having someone living in your house for free while we toil at work each and every day....who would not even help with the house chores. Then have the gall to complain about the quality of food and your skills at cooking when you put food on the dinner table....and complain about the spots you miss in cleaning the house!

Actually, it's more like opening your house to accomodate the new neighbours who don't have a place, and then the new neighbours take over the downstairs and move you to the second floor, and then more neighbours move in and you get moved to the attic.

Then the neighbours wonder who gave you the legal right to live in the attic.

I'm sorry Betsy, but if you feel so hard done by with your taxes and all, then why not move away? Didn't your ancestors come here because things weren't that good in the old country? If you truly feel that you are so "oppressed", than do what your ancestors would have done and feel free to move to a country where you aren't taxed as badly. I pay tax here, and I think Canada is a great country. I can travel all over the place and see all this country has to offer...I can choose to live wherever I want, and I don't whine about my taxes, but I do get upset with legislation.

Natives have been given lands.

This is confusing. Six Nations was granted land, but the other 632 Nations are all on their traditional lands. The 632 First Nations traded a large portion of their traditional lands with the Crown for a number of rights and benefits, but no land was ever given to them, unless by the Creator at the dawn of time. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

They have been given brand new housing. They don't pay any taxes.

Actually, they are owed housing by the agreement stemming from the treaty they singed. Even here the government has not lived up to ther promises as housing is a major need on many First Nations. The taxes are also part of the exchange of land for benefits.

Provided with a budget to improve your situation (education, sanitation, etc..,)

Hunh? Each band is auditted annually. Their audits are on INAC's website so that any Canadian with web access can go on and review the financial details of every band in Canada. Didn't you know about this?

Are you sure you have a clue as to what you are talking about, or are you making things up as we go along?

They all get welfare.

Who? From my knowledge of Six Nations, they are on a par with all Canadian towns and cities of their size when it comes to average per capita social assistance usage. Some places on the East coast are higher because of lack of employment opportunities, but there isn't much difference. I have to assume that you want to insult Aboriginal people as a whole because you are making accusations without factual knowledge. likewise, if you want to see the per capita comparator, subscribe to either one of the Six Nations newspapers. they have that info.

Yes, this land have been invaded by whites...

Again, you are incorrect. The land was purchased by the Crown from the Native people, and the Crown made a number of promises and payments (that they've since reneged on again and again, but that's another story) to secure the land without bloodshed.

But it had also been made to what it is now by all these peoples who had come to this place.

Oh, and the Native folks too. Remember, our most decorated War veteran was Tommy Prince, a native from Manitoba. Tom Longboat (from Six Nations) made Canada renowned with his lond distance running, as did Pauline Johnston (also from Six Nations) with her poetry. Graham Greene was pretty good in "Dances with Wolves".

Too bad. That's the history of this land.

What? Ignore any contributions the Natives made and take all the credit for yourself? Geez, why can't you do likewise for serial killing and mass murder as you do for "building" this country?

Same as the history of my land (which had been colonized by the Spaniards...then freed by the US).

Yes, but I don't live on your land and call you and all your people shiftless welfare bums, like you do here. Why not move back and improve your land? I'm sure your people would be happy to see you, all educated and everything.

If we can't defend it...we lose it.

Again, have you any clue about Canadian history? There were no Indian Wars here, like in the U.S. The only time Natives against Europeans was when they were involved in European wars, like the Seven years War, or the War of 1812. the Crown prided itself in the fact that they could come to terms civilly with the Natives and had the treaties to prove it.

The only people who got beat through war in this country were the French, and they are European!

[Temagami Scourge]

Betsy Partie deux:

Be thankful that it was not the Germans who conquered and staked a claim in this land

Thankful? I had two grandfathers and a brace of cousins who fought the Kaiser in WWI. I even had a Belgian guy digital photo the names of some of my relations from the Menin Gate and email it to me so I could send it to my family members. Do you know what the Menin Gate is? That is in Ypres, where they were killed keeping back the German hordes.

My dad, uncle, aunt and another whack of cousins fought in WWII.

I have three cousins from the Korean War. I have relations who fought in Vietnam, in gulf War I and are now in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

If anything Betsy, since my family has proven their commitment to Canada and the U.S., maybe you should thank me on their behalf.

(and that doesn't include my relations who fought in the American Revolution and the War of 1812)

otherwise, your people would have been among the first to go en masse during Hitler's time.

I doubt it, they would have had a hard time chasing them through the forests up north. They didn't do that good against the Russians at Leningrad (which is sort of like Northern Ontario).

Be thankful that the people who came to this shores were not brutally hostile and intolerant,

be thankful that the people greeting their arrival weren't hostile or intolerant either.

... had not decided to rid this place of tribes and natives when they came to stake their claim.

What? Jeffrey Amherst sent pox-infected blankets out to the western tribes as "trade gifts"...you mean to tell me that is not wholesale slaughter? He might be one of the original mass murderers.

True, that racism still exists....but it exists in every groups in various forms or degrees. It does exists among natives too. Racism is part of life.

I agree, but what are we going to do about it? You just spent a post calling my people welfare users who are only living at the whim of your people, so I don't see anything redeeming to build on.

I do know this is off topic, but that's about it.

[Temagami Scourge]

We must ask ourselves: What can we do to assist our Euro-Canadian brethren overcome this insidious desire to stalk and murder, or just blow up one day and kill a bunch of people at a workplace, or other public venue?

How can the non-Euro-Canadian population help our brothers and sisters? How can we protect ourselves from wanton acts of slaughter?

What a ridiculous thread. At the rist of echoing some other comments wouldn't it be wise to look at the reasons why "your" people are occupying most of the spaces in Canadian jails before judging other races as potential killing machines? As for "Euro-Canadian," I was born here and am not a hypenated Canadian. My grandparents were born in other countries and left their culture and language behind when they moved here. They wanted to totally integrate into the existing society. Instead of racially profiling, how about working towards the definition and identification of all Canadians being equal.

newbie: Yes, I guess you are new because you missed much of the prior discussion that preceeded this topic. I can't fault you for that.

I would like to see what you mean when you mention Canadians being equal. Many have said it, but they also don't mean it.

[betsy]

But what about the tax-payers who had endured?

What, like the two cars, 2.5 kids, the dog, a home, freedom of choice, freedom to pursue their religion in peace?

Boy...I'd sure like to be a tax payer.

Oh geez...I am! I don't live on reserve so I do pay taxes, and as a taxpayer, I think the government has screwed up...but i have to rely on other taxpayers to change the government and hold them accountable.

What do you mean? You can't pursue your own religion?

And what about people with two cars, 2.5 kids, a dog and a home. Including the white picket fence. Waterfront. What does that have to do with it? They've worked for it. They pursued and got the American dream.

Well, I think the government had been screwing up for the last 13 years. Big time. But just like you, I have been hoping that the Liberal thinkers will see the light!