The Iranian Letter

[KrustyKidd]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad sent a letter to U.S. President George W. Bush on Monday -- marking the first public contact the heads of state of the two countries have had since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Rice dismisses Iranian letter to Bush

NEW YORK — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice dismissed a surprise letter that Iran’s president sent to President Bush on Monday, saying it did not seriously address the standoff over Tehran’s disputed nuclear program.

In an interview with The Associated Press, the top U.S. diplomat said the letter from Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was 17 or 18 pages long and covered history, philosophy and religion. It was not a diplomatic opening, she said.

“This letter isn’t it. This letter is not the place that one would find an opening to engage on the nuclear issue or anything of the sort,” Rice said. “It isn’t addressing the issues that we’re dealing with in a concrete way.”

Very strange. If this letter were simply ramblings of Persian philosophy then the White House should have absolutely no problem releaseing it in full. So, what's in the letter that they don't wish to show?

[Black Dog]

IMO, this letter, regardless of its content, is a screen for some very active back channel chatter.

The U.S.'s dismissal is a play to the home crowd (after all, it doesn't look good for the party of the War on terror to be seen as too happy to chat with them crazy Islamonazifascist whatever they ares), but they know it's a signal. (If Ahmadinejad made one mistake it was sending a 17 or 18 page letter to Bush: there's no way he'd read anything that long... )

Both parties know they can only rattle sabres for so long before the threats lose their impact. The time is coming for them to pull 'em out and put 'em on the table.

[Michael Hardner]

I've heard that these two countries talk far more than either side lets on. There are definitely some reasonable voices in the Iranian government that the US could deal with.

[theloniusfleabag]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a very simple man. I expect that what was in the letter might have been similar to what one might have seen issued from Byzantium to the Western world, about how noble and poetic Islam is (or can be), contrary to western opinion. He probably included some of his own poetry, as Osama Bin Laden did in his 'messages' to the West. Then, I assume, he made the claim that for Islam to once again rise to it's former glory, it must have nuclear power, and claimed that the 'West' has no right to interfere.

[KrustyKidd]

I'm with Black Dog on this one. I think that there is some references to Iran's friendly dealings with Israel involved as well as some key demands for Iraq that the US does not wish to meet. The US cannot allow the Sunni world to know how deep they are in bed with the Shiite Iranians and nor can the Iranians let the Muslim world know they aided the US or, in the very least, worked alongside them in some capacity.

On another point, the timing was pretty interesting as Rice was hosting a dinner with other members of the UNSC where the major issue being discussed was Iran.

I do think there is nothing really of substance in it rather the message was the message itself. Meaning 'now you know that we know that we need to have relations in some way. And, if you don't start getting off your high horse and give us something, we are going to make public a few items that would make you uncomfortable. Oh, and those agreements we made about Iraq, don't even think about trying to back out of them.'

As well, with this letter, it is official that they extended an olive branch and scored big time points with Russia and China on the USNC.

[GostHacked]

Here is the translated transcript of the letter from the Iranian President.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0605/...tter/index.html

This guy sounds more sane than 3/4s of the current world leaders. It is a little preachy on the last two pages, but he poses some great questions that need to be answered honestly(hahaha) by world leaders.

Overall the letter was a great read.

[KrustyKidd]

Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the Almighty and justice and the will of God will prefail over all things.

Will you not accept this invitation? That is, a genuine return to the teachings of phrophets. To montheism, and justice to preserve human dignity and obiedience to the Almighty and his phophets?

Guess I was right - the message is the message. Meaningless claptrap, but all with a severe left wing slant designed so that there would be no response. Very strange comming from a far right individual.

[Shady]

This guy sounds more sane than 3/4s of the current world leaders

This maybe the all-time most ignorant statement ever. Is this how you feel about all holocaust deniers?

You people are hilarious. I can't believe you'd fall for such a calculated ploy. Iran's President is psycho. He believes in the 12th Imam. Do a little research, educate yourself. He wishes Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth. He's also a holocaust denier, and all I hear from you idiots is praise. How do you know this letter was even written by him? And well written? So the F what? So was Mein Kampf. You people are ridiculous, completely ignorant, unbelievably irresponsible, and immensely scary all rolled into one. You're all a bunch of Neville Chamberlain's. Sorry to be so harsh, but you guys really need to get your heads out of your asses.

[Black Dog]

You people are hilarious. I can't believe you'd fall for such a calculated ploy. Iran's President is psycho. He believes in the 12th Imam. Do a little research, educate yourself. He wishes Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth. He's also a holocaust denier, and all I hear from you idiots is praise.

Yawn. The same hysterical claptrap we've been hearing ever since this guy took power, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the political realities that govern the situation. It's a comic book portrait of a crazed supervillian that has no connection with reality. (Also: the demand that we "do a little research" is pretty funny when paired with such a shallow analysis.)

How do you know this letter was even written by him? And well written? So the F what? So was Mein Kampf. You people are ridiculous, completely ignorant, unbelievably irresponsible, and immensely scary all rolled into one. You're all a bunch of Neville Chamberlain's. Sorry to be so harsh, but you guys really need to get your heads out of your asses.

Actually Mein Kampf was a terrible book. As for the tired appeaser references: don't you get tired of puking that kind of worthless garbage out when there is no parrallels whatsoever between the Anchluss of Czechesolovakia and the Iranian nuclear gambit? Put bluntly: do you know about anything of which you speak?

[Liam]

I am fairly liberal (by most US standards) and am counting the days till Bush is out of power, but I have to agree that only a fool would allow himself to be duped into believing that this letter is some sincere attempt at diplomacy.

[Black Dog]

I am fairly liberal (by most US standards) and am counting the days till Bush is out of power, but I have to agree that only a fool would allow himself to be duped into believing that this letter is some sincere attempt at diplomacy.

No one said it was. But it is significant, if only for the fact that it marks the first formal correspondence betwen the two nation's leaders in almost 30 years. As KK said, the letter itself is irrelevant: what's important is what it represents.

KK, I will take issue with the following:

Meaningless claptrap, but all with a severe left wing slant designed so that there would be no response. Very strange comming from a far right individual.

Did you miss the part where he writes "liberalism and Western-style democracy have not been able to help realize the ideals of humanity" and "have failed?" In that context, this letter looks like a religious, conservative reaching out to what he sees as a kindred spirit.

[Liam]

No one said it was. But it is significant, if only for the fact that it marks the first formal correspondence betwen the two nation's leaders in almost 30 years. As KK said, the letter itself is irrelevant: what's important is what it represents.

No one here has, but I regularly read posts to other political discussion boards and I am embarrassed to say that there are plenty of people out there who sound like they now trust Iran more than they trust the US.

[GostHacked]

No one said it was. But it is significant, if only for the fact that it marks the first formal correspondence betwen the two nation's leaders in almost 30 years. As KK said, the letter itself is irrelevant: what's important is what it represents.

No one here has, but I regularly read posts to other political discussion boards and I am embarrassed to say that there are plenty of people out there who sound like they now trust Iran more than they trust the US.

Giving the US's historic involvment in the Middle East for the last 30 to 40 years, I would say I trust Iran more than the US. I have rarely yet to see the Iranians globetrott around the world shouting FREEDOME AND PEACE AND YOU WILL COMPLY OR ELSE.

And I stand by my words. That letter (when you ignore the religious rhetoric from BOTH sides) raises some good solid questions. Why are you afraid of a different point of view? Does it infringe on your freedoms or rights? I am not an idiot and, I do not need to pull my head out of the ground, or my ass. It is a shame the letter is in a pic file, for I cannot copy paste text from there to show you that it is a great letter.

For your records, I am not a fan of Bush, never have been. And I really am not a fan of Harper or his former counterpart.

[KrustyKidd]

Did you miss the part where he writes "liberalism and Western-style democracy have not been able to help realize the ideals of humanity" and "have failed?" In that context, this letter looks like a religious, conservative reaching out to what he sees as a kindred spirit.

Iran is a large country with a modern intelligence community. All of the resources there advise the council and the President and to think that the best approach to rectify the world's ills (and along with it iran's attempt for regional hedgemony) will be to make your first message to be a proposal to get an ididel nation of 300 million to suddenly convert to fundementalist Christianity/Judism/Islam is laughable.

The message is the message and, what is more, it is designed not to get a return message but, it plays very well in Europe and the Middle East don't you think? Heck, there are even some here on this board that are now on Iran's side. This guy is impressing me more everyday. A very good chess player indeed.

[Riverwind]

The message is the message and, what is more, it is designed not to get a return message but, it plays very well in Europe and the Middle East don't you think? Heck, there are even some here on this board that are now on Iran's side. This guy is impressing me more everyday. A very good chess player indeed.

I am sure that the Iranian president knew that hell would freeze over before the Bush regime would accept it. The primary audiance was moderates both inside and outside of the US and it seems to have succeeded.

[Liam]

... And I stand by my words. That letter (when you ignore the religious rhetoric from BOTH sides) raises some good solid questions. Why are you afraid of a different point of view? Does it infringe on your freedoms or rights? I am not an idiot and, I do not need to pull my head out of the ground, or my ass...

I am absolutely not afraid of a different point of view. Ahmenijad (sp) isn't doing anything more than poking a pointy stick at Bush. (Actually, I think Bush quite deserves a pointy stick and worse.) What I find sadly notable is that some people are treating this letter as though it were a genuine invitation to sit down to settle the differences between Iran and the rest of the world. It is a PR stunt. It offers nothing. It doesn't make any attempt to rectify damage done by both sides of this ongoing spat. All it does is point out Bush's mistakes, the failure of the Iraq policy, and rails against the existence of Israel. It is all expressions of a particular point of view, of which I do not fear discussing, but some people are making it seem like the modern day equivalent of Moses' descent from Mt. Sinai with the holy tablets. It is simply not an attempt at closing a diplomatic breach.

Do you know what this letter is? This letter is the equivalent of a hypothetical divorced couple who haven't spoken in years. The spurned wife sends the ex-husband a letter saying, "You will never be a decent husband, you are a morally corrupt individual, you drink too much, you are incapable of being honest, you will never amount to anything, your children have nothing but contempt for you and you will die a cold and lonely death," then having everyone say "Look!! She's reaching out to him!"

[KrustyKidd]

Do you know what this letter is? This letter is the equivalent of a hypothetical divorced couple who haven't spoken in years. The spurned wife sends the ex-husband a letter saying, "You will never be a decent husband, you are a morally corrupt individual, you drink too much, you are incapable of being honest, you will never amount to anything, your children have nothing but contempt for you and you will die a cold and lonely death," then having everyone say "Look!! She's reaching out to him!"

Very good analogy. You forgot the 'you screw around too.'

[KrustyKidd]

It is a shame the letter is in a pic file, for I cannot copy paste text from there to show you that it is a great letter.

This I gotta see. Going to take some serious Holly Wood screne writing to make this read right. Go for it.

Iranian Letter to Bush

[GostHacked]

It is a shame the letter is in a pic file, for I cannot copy paste text from there to show you that it is a great letter.

This I gotta see. Going to take some serious Holly Wood screne writing to make this read right. Go for it.

Iranian Letter to Bush

I was refering to my link off CNN with the Iranian letter. It was in a picture file, so cutting and pasting would be a chore. But I still think it is great. Considering all I hear out of Bush's mouth (either from his mouth or in print) is nothing but 'do it or else'

What does this '(PBUH)' mean?? I am in no ways a religious man, so I claim ignorance there.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear GostHacked,

What does this '(PBUH)' mean?? I am in no ways a religious man, so I claim ignorance there

I am not religious either, but it means 'praise be upon him'.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glos.../term.PBUH.html

Islam recognizes Abraham, (the progenitor of the Jews, referred to by them as 'Ibrahim') and Jesus, as holy figures. Prophets, though, without the 'abject holiness' attributed by their respective followers.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Shady,

He wishes Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth.

I hear this line all the time, but the Muslims in the area would be happy if it was done with an eraser. Only the fear mongers claim that they want to do it with nukes.

I also concur with Black Dog, Mein Kampf was a terrible book. Endlessly repetetive, run-on sentences covering a quarter of a page, it is an annoying read. This after being edited! Still, a valuable read for everyone.

[BHS]

Dear GostHacked,

What does this '(PBUH)' mean?? I am in no ways a religious man, so I claim ignorance there

I am not religious either, but it means 'praise be upon him'.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glos.../term.PBUH.html

Islam recognizes Abraham, (the progenitor of the Jews, referred to by them as 'Ibrahim') and Jesus, as holy figures. Prophets, though, without the 'abject holiness' attributed by their respective followers.

In his novel Skinny Legs and All Tom Robbins writes a section of dialogue between two friends, a Muslim and a Jew, both from Jerusalem. In that dialogue they discuss how Abraham was the father of the Jews through his son Isaac and the father of the Arabs through his son Ishmael (Isaac's older half brother, born to Sarah's maidservant). I don't know if that's entirely reputable, being that it comes from Tom Robbins.

Oh wait, here's a link that seems to back the theory up.

Also, I haven't read through this entire thread, but I haven't seen anyone mention another possibility for the letter: according to a blog I was reading earlier there's a commandment from Mohammed in the Koran stating that it is a Muslim's leader's duty to offer conversion to his enemies before making war on them. This letter would certainly qualify as that sort of gesture. Can someone look this up and confirm it?

[BHS]

Yawn. The same hysterical claptrap we've been hearing ever since this guy took power, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the political realities that govern the situation. It's a comic book portrait of a crazed supervillian that has no connection with reality. (Also: the demand that we "do a little research" is pretty funny when paired with such a shallow analysis.)

* * *

Actually Mein Kampf was a terrible book. As for the tired appeaser references: don't you get tired of puking that kind of worthless garbage out when there is no parrallels whatsoever between the Anchluss of Czechesolovakia and the Iranian nuclear gambit? Put bluntly: do you know about anything of which you speak?

"No connection with reality". Are you saying that he isn't a Holocaust denier, and that he hasn't threatened to nuke Israel given the chance? I mean, I know you're no fan of Israel, but do you really think nuking the place is appropriate?

The second part is pretty funny, coming from you. Shady didn't mention the Anchluss of Czecheslovakia at all, only that both Mein Kampf and this letter were written with a similar degree of literacy. By juxtaposing the two works there is the implied notion that Hitler and Ahmadinejad have a similar notion of how Jews should be dealt with, but that isn't stated explicitly in Shady's post (even if it's true).

But wait - aren't you the guy who's defended the "Bush = Hitler" comparison ad nauseum? Meaning, I guess, that a pathetically weak and endlessly debunkable howler from the fringe carries more weight with you than a legitimate comparison of two men whose stated goals vis-a-vis the eradication of an entire race are practically identical. That's interesting, but not really unexpected.

We argued in an early thread about "taking sides" and you argued that there weren't any sides to take. But when you support the notions that "Bush equals Hitler" and that "Ahmadinejad does not equal Hitler" you really are painting yourself into one half of the house. And it's clearly not the half of the house that I'm in.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear BHS,

Also, I haven't read through this entire thread, but I haven't seen anyone mention another possibility for the letter: according to a blog I was reading earlier there's a commandment from Mohammed in the Koran stating that it is a Muslim's leader's duty to offer conversion to his enemies before making war on them. This letter would certainly qualify as that sort of gesture. Can someone look this up and confirm it?

You shouldn't take 'blogs' as fact. However, this one seems to be correct. It is true, and Osama himself offered conversion (with himself as teacher) to any Americans willing to convert before 9/11, as commanded by the Koran. I had a copy of it printed off of the USC website, but have since used it as scrap paper.

[KrustyKidd]

I was reading earlier there's a commandment from Mohammed in the Koran stating that it is a Muslim's leader's duty to offer conversion to his enemies before making war on them. This letter would certainly qualify as that sort of gesture. Can someone look this up and confirm it?

I have no idea but can tell you that Iran is on the verge of a revolution and screwing the whole sutuation up by going to war with a superpower will not gain the Revoltionary Coucil any brownie points. No matter what conversion opportunities they provide before they devastate Iran.

Wake up for crying out loud. the message is the message. Designed to be non returnable and to be consumed by the two main guests at Rice's eve of vote dinner the day the message (the first in thirty years between Tehran and Washington) - China and Russia.

One poster put it so correct that it was unbelievable 'see, I'm reaching out to him and he won't answer' This is the message to China and Russia, show them how bad the US is for wanting them not to have nuclear power that is under UN control. How do you pretend to be in control to a modern populatin when you have UN inspectors running al over the place? They're all on the internet and know their country if messed up, inspectors and sanctions don't make for a more stable home front.