Happy “Liberation Day” aka Economic Disaster Day

[BeaverFever]

On 4/16/2025 at 9:44 PM, CdnFox said:

He caused the housing crisis. That was his policies. That has been 100% explored by a number of financial experts at this point, he brought in more immigration than we had homes for. It was 100% his fault

And further to my earlier comments the immigration policy whether beneficial or not went through an actual policy process in that there were various experts and stakeholders advocating for it for a ling time it wasn’t just Trudeau sitting on a throne issuing decrees based on his own uninformed hunches. 

FWIW that immigration is also credited for being the primary reason Canada didn’t enter recession and before Trump’s tariffs Canada had been forecasted to lead the G7 in growth in 2025 because of it. 

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well, i mean if they COMPLETELY lost faith it would be an epic disaster the likes of which we've never seen for sure. 

But like i say the fundimentals are still there.  They may get badly beaten up and i think a recession is pretty much unavoidable at this point or at least severe stagflation but i don't think there's much chance of an actual collapse. 

The fundamentals are a 122% federal debt to GDP ratio and Republicans want to cut taxes while running trillion dollar deficits.

[BeaverFever]

On 4/17/2025 at 7:09 AM, Nationalist said:

I showed you that globalist ideology had nothing to do with the USA becoming wealthy. In fact, since Clinton, the USA has been actively destroying its own middle-class. Perhaps even before that.

You make a lot of stupid statements based on your limited knowledge and lack of research.

As for what Trump is doing...it's about time the USA had a leader who cared more about the people, than Wall Street.

Dumbass. USA became a global superpower in the aftermath of WW2. That is a fact most people learn before high school. It’s not even up for debate.   The US created and lead the post-war world order which only allowed it to become even more powerful relative to other nations. 
 

The “globalist” world order started with Reagan/Thatcher but really took off in the 90s, championed by Republicans and conservatives who called liberals and democrats communists and socialists for opposing the “free market” offshoring factory jobs and corporate mergers that resulted in mass layoffs.  
 

The real reason US factory towns remain “hollowed out” is because of a failure of US domestic policy and lack of a social safety net for people who fall on hard times. In “sink or swim” America those places were left to sink amd that’s what happened. Spoiler alert:  for the few factory jobs that do come back to USA, they won’t be coming  to those rusted out meth-head shitholes, they will be located somewhere new, close to centres of commerce and technology. 

[BeaverFever]

Now the Mad King is tanking the markets even further because he’s butthurt over an opinion

Dow ends down nearly 1,000 points after Trump’s latest tirade against Fed’s Powell

U.S. stocks suffered steep losses on Monday as President Donald Trump ramped up his attacks on Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, prompting investors to worry about the central bank’s independence even as they grapple with the effects of Trump’s ongoing, erratic trade war.
 

All three major indexes tumbled more than 2%, and the U.S. dollar continued to get hammered, sinking to a three-year low against a basket of major currencies. The equity selloff was less intense in Canada, thanks largely to another surge in gold prices to fresh record highs.

Trump escalated his criticism of Powell on Monday, saying the U.S. economy is headed for a slowdown “unless Mr. Too Late, a major loser, lowers interest rates NOW,” in a bellicose Truth Social post which raised concerns over the Fed’s autonomy….

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/markets/inside-the-market/market-news/article-premarket-stocks-dollar-slide-as-trumps-attacks-on-fed-shake-markets/

Edited Monday at 11:49 PM by BeaverFever

[Aristides]

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/investing/2025/04/21/us-exceptionalism-faces-challenges-amid-steepening-of-us-treasury-yield-curve-portfolio-manger/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/apr/21/boeing-investors-brace-for-fallout-from-trump-tariffs

Edited Monday at 10:36 PM by Aristides

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Dumbass. USA became a global superpower in the aftermath of WW2. That is a fact most people learn before high school. It’s not even up for debate.   The US created and lead the post-war world order which only allowed it to become even more powerful relative to other nations. 
 

The “globalist” world order started with Reagan/Thatcher but really took off in the 90s, championed by Republicans and conservatives who called liberals and democrats communists and socialists for opposing the “free market” offshoring factory jobs and corporate mergers that resulted in mass layoffs.  
 

The real reason US factory towns remain “hollowed out” is because of a failure of US domestic policy and lack of a social safety net for people who fall on hard times. In “sink or swim” America those places were left to sink amd that’s what happened. Spoiler alert:  for the few factory jobs that do come back to USA, they won’t be coming  to those rusted out meth-head shitholes, they will be located somewhere new, close to centres of commerce and technology. 

It was Clinton and the WTO.!

Your spending spree dreams on welfare only identify you as shallow.

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

It was Clinton and the WTO.!

Your spending spree dreams on welfare only identify you as shallow.

Dumbass.  USA effectively created and controlled WTO, along with IMF, world bank and all the other globalist institutions and USA benefited greatly from them, more than anyone else did  America became even more rich and powerful after the cold war ended ESPECIALLY during the Clinton years but it didn’t start there it started under Reagan. Clinton years were just peak America before the economy crashed under Bush and all the tea party nutjobs started coming out of the woodwork  

American capitalists wanted globalization and they became billionaires doing it.  Republicans were the biggest champions of it. 

Basic social safety nets are not “welfare” and your ridiculous attitude is exactly why USA ids full of destitute shitholes not seen in other first world countries. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:40 AM by BeaverFever

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Dumbass.  USA effectively created and controlled WTO, along with IMF, world bank and all the other globalist institutions and USA benefited greatly from them, more than anyone else did  America became even more rich and powerful after the cold war ended ESPECIALLY during the Clinton years but it didn’t start there it started under Reagan. Clinton years were just peak America before the economy crashed under Bush and all the tea party nutjobs started coming out of the woodwork  

American capitalists wanted globalization and they became billionaires doing it.  Republicans were the biggest champions of it. 

Basic social safety nets are not “welfare” and your ridiculous attitude is exactly why USA ids full of destitute shitholes not seen in other first world countries. 

And so you prove my point. Yes, as I said, American wealth was created a century ago. Since Clinton, that wealth has been squandered. By letting China into the WTO, they siphoned off American industry and manufacturing. Offshoring became the norm at the expense of the middle class.

And social safety nets ARE welfare...Dumbass. 

But thanks for proving my point.

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Dumbass.  USA effectively created and controlled WTO, along with IMF, world bank and all the other globalist institutions and USA benefited greatly from them, more than anyone else did  America became even more rich and powerful after the cold war ended ESPECIALLY during the Clinton years but it didn’t start there it started under Reagan. Clinton years were just peak America before the economy crashed under Bush and all the tea party nutjobs started coming out of the woodwork  

American capitalists wanted globalization and they became billionaires doing it.  Republicans were the biggest champions of it. 

Basic social safety nets are not “welfare” and your ridiculous attitude is exactly why USA ids full of destitute shitholes not seen in other first world countries.

Thanks to the institutions you mentioned, America owned and controlled World markets. Over time though, they stopped spending money to maintain education and opted for tax cuts instead for the wealthiest.... Assuming they could just purchase the competition and stay on top. 

The current administration wants to turn back the clock, but the conditions have changed. It seems that the leadership, and even the investor class is going to bet heavily that they will win this trade war.

[Michael Hardner]

On 4/16/2025 at 9:18 PM, BeaverFever said:

Surely even you must realize that policy especially something this important is the result of ideas that have been studied and refined dor years by a wide variety of experts and stakeholders and are only implemented when they have achieved the highest levels of scrutiny and broad acceptance from some segment of society  Trump’s uninformed and half-baked tariffs ideas haven’t been put on paper much less studied or refined and what he has uttered about them is absolute gibberish to anyone either even a basic understanding of economics. Even many in his own administration don’t support them. It is absolutely unfathomable that the “leader of the free world” is acting in a  manner that would get even a McDonalds manager fired 

Bullseye.

Even the prevailing economic theory of the Chicago school of economics percolated for 20 years or so before it gradually gained acceptance. 

If you want to see something remarkable, watch the talking heads at CNBC, MSNBC, and FOX business ... Those shows that cover the markets ... Trying to get their heads around. What's going on here. 

They're slowly coming to the realization that Trump actually thinks he's smarter than the business world. That the economic orthodoxy they all buy into is under direct threat from The mad King that they supported. 

Most centrists were unnerved by his statements during the last election campaign, and felt there was at least a good chance of him pursuing the trade war and doing damage. 

Those who supported him felt it was rhetoric only, and that he would listen to advisors who would keep him grounded. 

If he doesn't give this up, it could be calamitous.

 

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

And so you prove my point. Yes, as I said, American wealth was created a century ago. Since Clinton, that wealth has been squandered. By letting China into the WTO, they siphoned off American industry and manufacturing. Offshoring became the norm at the expense of the middle class.

And social safety nets ARE welfare...Dumbass. 

But thanks for proving my point.

1) America became a global superpower after Ww2, and USA built the global international order we know today 

2) After the cold ear, that international order was expanded to include Russia, China etc  Free trade agreements were signed, “globalism” commenced  STARTED UNDER REAGAN 

3) Through the 90s Globalism was championed by Republicans more than anyone, becomes a universally accepted principle by people in both parties   Americas wealth continues to grow exponentially as a result, a need class of billionaires is created.  America continues to be richer than ever before Republicans  continue to bus unions, rill back workplace safety and labour protections and claim the offshoring of factories is just hiw capitalism works  

4) Americas wealth is greater than ever before….However wealth inequality in USA continues to increase as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the middle class is hollowed out. All the wealth is being distributed to the billionaire class and none is shared with the rest of society. Democrats continue to call this out but republicans ignore it  and call this talk socialism and “divisive class warfare”. Republicans continue to say anyone can simply work harder if they want more. 
 

5) Republicans suddenly falsely pretend to care about the destruction of the working class  and promote a bunch of phoney baloney working man policies that are really just a smokescreen to preserve the status quo and just increased pollution, reduced consumer protection etc.   Sorry the factory jobs aren’t coming back and those that do aren’t going back to the obscure rust belt cities where they left 

5) The leading cause of bankruptcy in the usa is healthcare. Basic social safety nets that keep people from becoming financially ruined when they have an illness or provide a temporary source of income when they lose their job is a far cry from what you’re derisively calling “welfare”. 

[Nationalist]

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

1) America became a global superpower after Ww2, and USA built the global international order we know today 

2) After the cold ear, that international order was expanded to include Russia, China etc  Free trade agreements were signed, “globalism” commenced  STARTED UNDER REAGAN 

3) Through the 90s Globalism was championed by Republicans more than anyone, becomes a universally accepted principle by people in both parties   Americas wealth continues to grow exponentially as a result, a need class of billionaires is created.  America continues to be richer than ever before Republicans  continue to bus unions, rill back workplace safety and labour protections and claim the offshoring of factories is just hiw capitalism works  

4) Americas wealth is greater than ever before….However wealth inequality in USA continues to increase as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the middle class is hollowed out. All the wealth is being distributed to the billionaire class and none is shared with the rest of society. Democrats continue to call this out but republicans ignore it  and call this talk socialism and “divisive class warfare”. Republicans continue to say anyone can simply work harder if they want more. 
 

5) Republicans suddenly falsely pretend to care about the destruction of the working class  and promote a bunch of phoney baloney working man policies that are really just a smokescreen to preserve the status quo and just increased pollution, reduced consumer protection etc.   Sorry the factory jobs aren’t coming back and those that do aren’t going back to the obscure rust belt cities where they left 

5) The leading cause of bankruptcy in the usa is healthcare. Basic social safety nets that keep people from becoming financially ruined when they have an illness or provide a temporary source of income when they lose their job is a far cry from what you’re derisively calling “welfare”. 

Lol...again you prove my point. Except it was Slick-Willy who ushered in globalism.

Welfare would be unnecessary if the middle-class were allowed to thrive. Trump is trying to make that happen. That you oppose these efforts only exhibits your partisan hatred and stupidity.

Meh...Libbies..  

Edited Tuesday at 12:17 PM by Nationalist

[BeaverFever]

51 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Lol...again you prove my point. Except it was Slick-Willy who ushered in globalism.

Welfare would be unnecessary if the middle-class were allowed to thrive. Trump is trying to make that happen. That you oppose these efforts only exhibits your partisan hatred and stupidity.

Meh...Libbies..  

No it was not Clinton. He just happened to be president when it took off.   NAFTA was signed under Bush but based on Reagan policies for example. 
 

Oh and more to the topic of this thread here’s all the “made in China” Donald Trump merch at Trump’s own Trump merch store (yes the grifter jn chief  has his own store selling MAGA merch)
 

 

[BeaverFever]

55 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Welfare would be unnecessary if the middle-class were allowed to thrive. Trump is trying to make that happen. That you oppose these efforts only exhibits your partisan hatred and stupidity.

Lol Trump is not trying to make that happen as you can see in real time he is wiping out people’s savings and driving up prices. He could care least about the middle class

Every society needs a social safety net because hard times  happen no matter what. Americas unique problems have a lot to do with the fact that they uniquely don’t have a social safety net that helps people get back on their feet. Instead it has a predatory system that preys on people when they are more vulnerable. 

[Nationalist]

5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

No it was not Clinton. He just happened to be president when it took off.   NAFTA was signed under Bush but based on Reagan policies for example. 
 

Oh and more to the topic of this thread here’s all the “made in China” Donald Trump merch at Trump’s own Trump merch store (yes the grifter jn chief  has his own store selling MAGA merch)
 

 

Quote

To Create Trade Opportunities and Expand the Benefits of Globalization, President Clinton: Won Ratification of the North America Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1993, creating the world's largest free trade zone of the U.S., Canada, and Mexico.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=clinton+started+globalism

Don't you even bother to check before to stick your foot in your mouth?

[BeaverFever]

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Don't you even bother to check before to stick your foot in your mouth?

Dumbass. Thats Ratification.
 

A Canadian-U.S. free-trade agreement was concluded in 1988, and NAFTA basically extended that agreement’s provisions to Mexico. NAFTA was negotiated by the administrations of U.S. Pres. George H.W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, and Mexican Pres. Carlos Salinas de Gortari. Preliminary agreement on the pact was reached in August1992, and it was signed by the three leaders on December 17. NAFTA was ratified by the three countries’ national legislatures in 1993 and went into effect on January 1, 1994

Here’s actual footage of Reagan signing the first free trade agreement:

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:59 PM by BeaverFever

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

  Thats Ratification.

The idea that the "left" (meaning somehow Democrats and Liberal Party) created globalization is just one of the head-spinning ideas that people with no sense of history float regularly.  (Another example is saying that the Nazis who jailed socialists were themselves socialists).

 

Of course the Liberals and Dems were glad to keep the agreements in place after the hard political work was done.  It worked out nicely as you ended up with 8 years of Dems and umpteen years of Liberals due to the economic boon.

Ah well... 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

The idea that the "left" (meaning somehow Democrats and Liberal Party) created globalization is just one of the head-spinning ideas that people with no sense of history float regularly.  (Another example is saying that the Nazis who jailed socialists were themselves socialists).

 

Of course the Liberals and Dems were glad to keep the agreements in place after the hard political work was done.  It worked out nicely as you ended up with 8 years of Dems and umpteen years of Liberals due to the economic boon.

Ah well... 

Mike...

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1994?amount=1

That's some boon. Here's another.

Quote

the average home price in the U.S. has grown from about $140,000 to about $420,400 as of the end of 2024.

Quote

According to the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), prices ballooned from $120,200 in 1990 to $827,100 in December 2023.

And the average income?

So the income has risen 20K from 1994 to 2022, yet the cost of living doubled.

Oddly enough, its the first Trump presidency when the incomes rose the sharpest and most sustained.

Americans, Canadians, Italians, Germans, even the French know the whole bullshit story that the economy is great under globalism, is a lie. A facade. The only people who did well, were the globalists themselves as they've proceeded to buy up all the small business competition and become big box conglomerates. Wallymart did great. Same with Apple. Neither of which I will spend my money on.

Clinton and the globalists brought devastation to the middle and lower classes.

And its past time that ended.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

 

Americans, Canadians, Italians, Germans, even the French know the whole bullshit story that the economy is great under globalism, is a lie. A facade. 

 

I do hear that, but usually the arguments omit global trade stats and GDP figures (which you have also done).  And the arguments are about distribution of gains, which is measured by the GINI coefficient.  So I concur that that argument is valid, but I believe tariffs and cutting global trade will impact GDP and will not address distribution of wealth.

Kudos for citing numbers though.

[Aristides]

The new American dream.

[Nationalist]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I do hear that, but usually the arguments omit global trade stats and GDP figures (which you have also done).  And the arguments are about distribution of gains, which is measured by the GINI coefficient.  So I concur that that argument is valid, but I believe tariffs and cutting global trade will impact GDP and will not address distribution of wealth.

Kudos for citing numbers though.

GDP is very deceptive. A generalization that does not represent the welfare of the citizens. It's used to argue for further globalization but is a lie of omission since it does not address the population.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

GDP is very deceptive. A generalization that does not represent the welfare of the citizens. It's used to argue for further globalization but is a lie of omission since it does not address the population.

Yes that is why I augment it with GINI.
 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:08 PM by Michael Hardner

[Michael Hardner]

Also using REAL GDP per capita, gives you THIS for the USA:
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Real_gdp_per_capita.png 

[Nationalist]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Also using REAL GDP per capita, gives you THIS for the USA:
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Real_gdp_per_capita.png 

And what? The middle-class already knows the sham GDP quoting is.

The US (and hopefully Canadian) economy is getting an enema...and its about time.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

And what? The middle-class already knows the sham GDP quoting is.

The US (and hopefully Canadian) economy is getting an enema...and its about time.

That's where the GINI comes in.  

You are happy that the economy is being upended but you don't understand where it's going.  How exactly will this result in a windfall for working people ?  I never understood that.