carepov Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 Please watch the first 60 seconds of this view for an unfiltered view of the ceremony where 4 dead bodies were returned to Israel. Two of the bodies were of Ariel and Kfir, ages 4 and nine months at the time of their capture. Autopsies revealed that the boys were strangled to death then their bodies were mutilated to make it appear that they died in an air strike. One body was supposed to be of their mother but it was not, it was an unknown person. The fourth body was an 83 year old peace activist. If you are pro-Israel, chances are you already know this and it will not come a much of a surprise. To the anti-Israel people, to the apathetic, and especially to the moderates: does this news surprise you? Does it affect the way that you see this war? Quote
cannuck Posted February 22 Report Posted February 22 I was what you describe as a "moderate" at the start of Gaza war but seeing Hamas continue to hide behind the civilian families of Gaza - using images of their losses for propaganda effect - and watching them hijack most of the aid supplies and hold those citizens hostage to pay for "aid" to fund their war made me a lot lest tolerant of Iran's interference. I still can't condone much of how Israel has rejected the 2 state model either. Quote
carepov Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 11 hours ago, cannuck said: I was what you describe as a "moderate" at the start of Gaza war but seeing Hamas continue to hide behind the civilian families of Gaza - using images of their losses for propaganda effect - and watching them hijack most of the aid supplies and hold those citizens hostage to pay for "aid" to fund their war made me a lot lest tolerant of Iran's interference. I still can't condone much of how Israel has rejected the 2 state model either. Israel has accepted the 2 state model, subject to Palestine accepting the existance of Israel. This seems like a reasonable stance, no? Quote
eyeball Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 47 minutes ago, carepov said: Israel has accepted the 2 state model, subject to Palestine accepting the existance of Israel. This seems like a reasonable stance, no? Especially if Israelis are allowed to continue making Palestine smaller with each new settlement. Sounds like a great deal. 1 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cannuck Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 8 hours ago, eyeball said: Especially if Israelis are allowed to continue making Palestine smaller with each new settlement. Sounds like a great deal. Which is exactly not accepting the 2 state model. Quote
carepov Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 Don't you get it? The majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank do not want a 2 state solution, they want to kill or exile all jews from Israel. Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 On 2/23/2025 at 8:06 AM, carepov said: Don't you get it? The majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank do not want a 2 state solution, they want to kill or exile all jews from Israel. Yes we all know that and we all know the majority of Israelis feel the same way about Palestinians. This is what being at war for nearly a 100 years will do to people. Like I said, they need to be kept separate from one another for a generation or two until they can calm down enough to start thinking straight again. If OTOH you want to pick sides the hatred will just spread the way it has been until its global. Do you plan on giving an inch? 1 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
SpankyMcFarland Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 On 2/21/2025 at 4:49 PM, carepov said: Please watch the first 60 seconds of this view for an unfiltered view of the ceremony where 4 dead bodies were returned to Israel. Two of the bodies were of Ariel and Kfir, ages 4 and nine months at the time of their capture. Autopsies revealed that the boys were strangled to death then their bodies were mutilated to make it appear that they died in an air strike. One body was supposed to be of their mother but it was not, it was an unknown person. The fourth body was an 83 year old peace activist. If you are pro-Israel, chances are you already know this and it will not come a much of a surprise. To the anti-Israel people, to the apathetic, and especially to the moderates: does this news surprise you? Does it affect the way that you see this war? I know Hamas are a fanatical death cult. That does not invalidate Palestinian personal rights, like property rights, or the aspiration that all nations have to a state of their own. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 On 2/22/2025 at 10:02 PM, carepov said: Israel has accepted the 2 state model, subject to Palestine accepting the existance of Israel. This seems like a reasonable stance, no? If it were as simple as that it would be reasonable, yes, but a two state solution has been explicitly opposed by many in Israel since its creation. Neither side has managed to achieve a settled consensus across the political spectrum for a peaceful transition to two states. Quote
carepov Posted March 3 Author Report Posted March 3 On 2/28/2025 at 11:56 AM, eyeball said: Yes we all know that and we all know the majority of Israelis feel the same way about Palestinians. This is what being at war for nearly a 100 years will do to people. This is absolutely not true. The vast majority of Israelis would gladly live peacefully next to a Palestinian state that would not attack Israel. Proof 1: There are 2 Million Palestinians living peacefully in the state of Israel today On 2/28/2025 at 11:56 AM, eyeball said: Like I said, they need to be kept separate from one another for a generation or two until they can calm down enough to start thinking straight again. If OTOH you want to pick sides the hatred will just spread the way it has been until its global. Do you plan on giving an inch? Again, the majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank do not want a 2 state solution, they want to kill or exile all Jews from Israel. What "inch" can they give, i.e. what can Israel do to change this fact? Quote
carepov Posted March 3 Author Report Posted March 3 On 2/28/2025 at 7:59 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: I know Hamas are a fanatical death cult. That does not invalidate Palestinian personal rights, like property rights, or the aspiration that all nations have to a state of their own. Like individuals, nations loose their rights if they violate the rights of others. Hamas' goal is the elimination of Israel. Hamas has the support of the majority in Gaza and the West Bank. On 2/28/2025 at 8:03 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: If it were as simple as that it would be reasonable, yes, but a two state solution has been explicitly opposed by many in Israel since its creation. Yes there are some Israeli's that have consistently opposed a two-state solution. The vast majority of Israelis would gladly live peacefully next to a Palestinian state that would not attack Israel. On 2/28/2025 at 8:03 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: Neither side has managed to achieve a settled consensus across the political spectrum for a peaceful transition to two states. Again: Hamas' goal is the elimination of Israel. How do you achieve "a settled consensus across the political spectrum for a peaceful transition to two states"? Quote
eyeball Posted March 3 Report Posted March 3 2 hours ago, carepov said: The vast majority of Israelis would gladly live peacefully next to a Palestinian state that would not attack Israel. That was also true of Palestinians a 100 years ago. But then Zionist terror groups attacked them. 2 hours ago, carepov said: Proof 1: There are 2 Million Palestinians living peacefully in the state of Israel today There were also plenty of Jews living peacefully in Palestine and Zionists attacked them too. 2 hours ago, carepov said: Again, the majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank do not want a 2 state solution, they want to kill or exile all Jews from Israel. What "inch" can they give, i.e. what can Israel do to change this fact? Nothing when they feel the same way. I get it that you don't like the idea of an internationally forced cooling off period. So...if you think the status quo is preferable it is what it is. Good luck. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
SpankyMcFarland Posted March 4 Report Posted March 4 (edited) 7 hours ago, carepov said: Like individuals, nations loose their rights if they violate the rights of others. The Palestinians were minding their own business a hundred years ago. There was no Hamas back then when Britain opened the floodgates and let thousands of European immigrants in. 7 hours ago, carepov said: Hamas' goal is the elimination of Israel. Hamas has the support of the majority in Gaza and the West Bank. That’s the situation we are in now. Israel has a government committed to annexing the West Bank. Its members regularly quote from a holy book as if it’s revealed truth. 7 hours ago, carepov said: Yes there are some Israeli's that have consistently opposed a two-state solution. The vast majority of Israelis would gladly live peacefully next to a Palestinian state that would not attack Israel. I’m not sure about that. They elected the current government whose leader has opposed a two state solution all his political life. 7 hours ago, carepov said: Again: Hamas' goal is the elimination of Israel. How do you achieve "a settled consensus across the political spectrum for a peaceful transition to two states"? You wouldn’t start from here. We now have an intractable tribal conflict with both sides convinced of the evil of the other and waving their holy books about as proof. There are many other examples of this, eg Ireland, Sri Lanka and Africa. What’s needed for starters are confidence-building measures. There’s no justification for settlers to be seizing any more Palestinian property in the West Bank, for example, or for dressing up as soldiers and shooting people on sight. Arab countries should grant citizenship to all Palestinian refugees currently in their country - that issue has gone on long enough. If Gaza is destroyed one of the obvious places for homeless people to go would be the West Bank as well as Egypt and other Arab countries. Israel’s bluff should be called on that but the Americans wouldn’t dare to do it. Edited March 4 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
carepov Posted March 7 Author Report Posted March 7 (edited) On 3/3/2025 at 9:21 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: The Palestinians were minding their own business a hundred years ago. There was no Hamas back then when Britain opened the floodgates and let thousands of European immigrants in. Wrong, here is one example of many: "The pogrom officially began on June 15, 1834. It lasted thirty-three days. It was carnage. Armed Arab and Bedouin villagers, as well as the inhabitants of Safed (including Turks), massacred the Jews and raped their wives. The death toll probably exceeded five hundred." https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-before-the-creation-of-the-state-of-israel-1830-1948/ 100 years ago, and throughout history before and after there were millions and tens of millions of people migrating throughout the world, including Arabs migrating into Palestine. Do you oppose any other migration or is it just the thousands of Jews? On 3/3/2025 at 9:21 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: That’s the situation we are in now. Israel has a government committed to annexing the West Bank. Its members regularly quote from a holy book as if it’s revealed truth. Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Israel has handed over control of most of the West Bank to the PA, cooperates with the PA in other areas. On 3/3/2025 at 9:21 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: I’m not sure about that. They elected the current government whose leader has opposed a two state solution all his political life. The current leader pulled out of Gaza in 2005. He was elected once it was crystal clear to the enough voters that Palestinian leaders would not recognize Israel and maintained their goal of the complete elimination of Israel. On 3/3/2025 at 9:21 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: You wouldn’t start from here. We now have an intractable tribal conflict with both sides convinced of the evil of the other and waving their holy books about as proof. There are many other examples of this, eg Ireland, Sri Lanka and Africa. What’s needed for starters are confidence-building measures. There’s no justification for settlers to be seizing any more Palestinian property in the West Bank, for example, or for dressing up as soldiers and shooting people on sight. Arab countries should grant citizenship to all Palestinian refugees currently in their country - that issue has gone on long enough. If Gaza is destroyed one of the obvious places for homeless people to go would be the West Bank as well as Egypt and other Arab countries. Israel’s bluff should be called on that but the Americans wouldn’t dare to do it. A good start would be understand the truth of both the current situation and the historical narrative. A) Compare the Israeli constitution with the one from Hamas. B. Israel has the capability to kill all Palestinians. Heavily armed Israeli solders patrol Palestinian territories with minimal abuse of power. Imagine the roles reversed? C) Israel shares "their country" with 2 million Arabs with full rights, and better standards of living than almost any Arab country. Yet all Jews have been ethnically cleansed from all 22 Arab countries. (Along with other minorities) Edited March 7 by carepov Quote
eyeball Posted March 7 Report Posted March 7 4 hours ago, carepov said: Do you oppose any other migration or is it just the thousands of Jews? Any migration that involved slaughtering the people who lived where migrants settled should be held to account - especially where the justice system of the invaders or whoever supported the migration/invasion can be used against them. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
carepov Posted March 8 Author Report Posted March 8 22 hours ago, eyeball said: Any migration that involved slaughtering the people who lived where migrants settled should be held to account - especially where the justice system of the invaders or whoever supported the migration/invasion can be used against them. I agree. The Jewish migrants purchased their land and lived in peace until attacked. Quote
eyeball Posted March 8 Report Posted March 8 10 minutes ago, carepov said: I agree. The Jewish migrants purchased their land and lived in peace until attacked. They also stole land and have lived in terror since. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
carepov Posted March 9 Author Report Posted March 9 5 hours ago, eyeball said: They also stole land and have lived in terror since. What land did they steal? Quote
eyeball Posted March 9 Report Posted March 9 28 minutes ago, carepov said: What land did they steal? Great...another sealion. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
carepov Posted March 12 Author Report Posted March 12 Here is another look at Palestinian culture: Who's side are you on? 1 Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted March 12 Report Posted March 12 1 hour ago, carepov said: Here is another look at Palestinian culture: Whose side are you on? There’s a very basic fallacy in what you have posted there. Let me illustrate it this way. If a man convicted of beating his wife lived next to you, would his past crime justify your theft of his car or his house? If you want the gold standard for misogyny look at South Asia, eg the Hindu and Sikh rate of sex-selective abortions which considerably exceed the Muslim rate. Would that have justified the British staying there? Quote
carepov Posted March 13 Author Report Posted March 13 9 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: There’s a very basic fallacy in what you have posted there. Let me illustrate it this way. If a man convicted of beating his wife lived next to you, would his past crime justify your theft of his car or his house? If you want the gold standard for misogyny look at South Asia, eg the Hindu and Sikh rate of sex-selective abortions which considerably exceed the Muslim rate. Would that have justified the British staying there? Israel did not steal anyone's car, house nor land. Israel is defending herself against those that want her exterminated. I am pointing out differences in values and culture. Quote
eyeball Posted March 13 Report Posted March 13 6 hours ago, carepov said: Israel did not steal anyone's car, house nor land. You figure these were actually bestowed as gifts by grateful Palestinians? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
carepov Posted March 13 Author Report Posted March 13 8 hours ago, eyeball said: You figure these were actually bestowed as gifts by grateful Palestinians? Land was purchased. "Palestinians" is a term whose meaning has changed over time, however, there has never been a Palestinian state. Here are some questions: between 1948-1967, were Egypt and Jordan "illegally occupying" Palestine? Did they "steal that land from Palestinians"? Quote
eyeball Posted March 13 Report Posted March 13 26 minutes ago, carepov said: Land was purchased. It was also stolen. 27 minutes ago, carepov said: "Palestinians" is a term whose meaning has changed over time, however, there has never been a Palestinian state. And yet it was Palestinians who had land stolen from them. Some still have the original deeds to their property. 30 minutes ago, carepov said: Here are some questions: between 1948-1967, were Egypt and Jordan "illegally occupying" Palestine? Did they "steal that land from Palestinians"? Don't know and don't care because they're not responsible for what Zionist terrorists or Israeli paramilitaries did. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.