Lowering the flag for slain soldiers?

[Hicksey]

Well if he wants an integral stand on this kind of issue maybe he shouldn't lie about the alternative motives. One of the mothers of the fallen as publicly came out and criticized the non-publication of her son's casket. How can the conservatives claim they are protcting the privacy of the family members when the family members don't want the privacy in the first place?

Because its not up to the government to make that decision. If the families want cameras and microphones at the funeral or want time with the press, I'm sure that in light of Harper's recent policy change they'll get all they can handle. But it is a choice for the family.

[Army Guy]

BD:

And Harper wants to hide it. This is a political issue: politiking on either side of the debate is to be expected.

At what piont has our government hid the fact that 4 soldiers died in Afgan. Because they refused the press into trenton there hiding something, What is it they are hiding ? They're not hiding anything, the left needs an excuse and they've picked a lame one...

Then let's say Harper does not want to give any undue publicity. Obviously, the death of a Canadian serving abroad is a news story and cannot be completely silenced.

This event has been covered , all the hidden corners reveiled, and still the public is not satisfied. And the media has a lip on because WHY, they had to use telephoto lens to see the caskets being unloaded off the plane.

The government made a decision to restrict the media from full access of the unloading process. Out of respect for the families, Yes one family has come forward out of the four, and requested the entire country see the unloading ceremony, "not all have done so", So i guess the country will have to suck it up and get thier casket ceremony else where.

This is not about the principle of retricting the media, it's about the left having something , anything to bitch about, and the media not being able to sell another 30 second spot on thier shows.

It's never been about our soldiers sacrifice it's about our quest to know every dirty detail of the event "OUR right to force everyone to be informed regardless of whom we harm...And now that Canadians are not getting thier fix, there has to be a cover-up.

Freshinit:

That's just it though, we SHOULD be making a big deal about it. If we are going to wave off Canadian casualties like they do in the American media then where does that leave us ethically?

At what piont did our Government wave off Canadian Casualites ? And what event gave you the impresion we are treating this the same way the Americans do.

We have a peacekeeping image and we should maintain it.

Canada does not have a peace keeping image as most Canadians believe, Thats a myth that our previous governments used to equiped our forces. Nothing more.

[Black Dog]

It's never been about our soldiers sacrifice it's about our quest to know every dirty detail of the event "OUR right to force everyone to be informed regardless of whom we harm...And now that Canadians are not getting thier fix, there has to be a cover-up.

It never is about the soldiers. What, you think the CPC wouldn't be acting the same way if the roles were flipped? It's all politics.

[Hicksey]

It's never been about our soldiers sacrifice it's about our quest to know every dirty detail of the event "OUR right to force everyone to be informed regardless of whom we harm...And now that Canadians are not getting thier fix, there has to be a cover-up.

It never is about the soldiers. What, you think the CPC wouldn't be acting the same way if the roles were flipped? It's all politics.

That I'll agree to. Politics in this country has sunk to adolescent bickering and it should be enough to make anyone following any party sick.

[Black Dog]

Politics in this country has sunk to adolescent bickering and it should be enough to make anyone following any party sick.

Politics and adolescent bickering are interchangeable IMO. Really, I'm just surprised that, given the cynical times we live in, that anyone is still shocked when politicians do unsavory things to advance their own agenda. I mean: fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly...

[Argus]

That's why the anti-war activists are politicising this to the utmost! They want to show the death toll...the body count!

And Harper wants to hide it. This is a political issue: politiking on either side of the debate is to be expected.

It's more than a little more disgusting when coming from the Liberals who are responsible for sending the troops to Afghanistan in the first place.

[Argus]

Not really. You can look up the death toll on CBC. Every solider death will be on TV.

Then let's say Harper does not want to give any undue publicity. Obviously, the death of a Canadian serving abroad is a news story and cannot be completely silenced. But one gets the feeling (and statements from the government and DoD have said as much) that there's no sense making a big deal out of these deaths when we can expect many more.

That's just it though, we SHOULD be making a big deal about it. If we are going to wave off Canadian casualties like they do in the American media then where does that leave us ethically?

The American media have not "waved off" casualties, and the Canadian media, by and large, HAVE no ethics.

We have a peacekeeping image and we should maintain it.

We have NO peacekeeping image except in the soft, mushy minds of liberals who know virtually nothing about history or the world. We are about 50th in the world in terms of actual peacekeeping operations, and haven't been much higher in many years.

[betsy]

And Harper wants to hide it. This is a political issue: politiking on either side of the debate is to be expected.

Tune in to CTV Newsnet, the non-stop news channel. Up-to-date blow-by-blow account from imbedded journalists! And if anyone missed the count, don't worry....replays every 15 minutes or so.

Why, this are the most exposed "hidden" news items there is!

Been wondering...just what is it exactly about the tarmac in Trenton that's so different and turning the Liberals and NDP purple?

[betsy]

Well if he wants an integral stand on this kind of issue maybe he shouldn't lie about the alternative motives. One of the mothers of the fallen as publicly came out and criticized the non-publication of her son's casket. How can the conservatives claim they are protcting the privacy of the family members when the family members don't want the privacy in the first place?

Even if three out of four families all clamor to have a photo-op with their sons' arrival in caskets....that lone family who wishes to maintain their privacy in grief must still be respected. This is not a matter of majority rules.

The three families who wish the photo-ops can still have THEIR OWN INIDIVIDUAL PHOTO-OPS by inviting all the press in their private funerals or ceremonies. No one can claim being denied!

As a matter of fact, even if ALL FAMILIES wanted the photo-ops...the military reserve the right to have their fallen comrades treated in the way the military deems proper inside the military installation!

[geoffrey]

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

Why do you even want to watch it?

Personally, I change the channel, say a little prayer for the families. I won't be so disrespectful to get my evening entertainment by watching our nation's bravest come back in coffins.

[justcrowing]

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

Why do you even want to watch it?

Personally, I change the channel, say a little prayer for the families. I won't be so disrespectful to get my evening entertainment by watching our nation's bravest come back in coffins.

Probably for the same reason people stop at a roadside accident and watch victims hauled off on a stretcher.

[betsy]

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

Why do you even want to watch it?

Personally, I change the channel, say a little prayer for the families. I won't be so disrespectful to get my evening entertainment by watching our nation's bravest come back in coffins.

Probably for the same reason people stop at a roadside accident and watch victims hauled off on a stretcher.

Or this new way of placing anything from flowers to teddy bears on the sites of death by strangers! There's no consistency in this public show of "grieving." I guess whomever gets your fancy or whomever gets the most prominent death coverage by the media gets this type of attention from compulsive mourners. And the younger the dead the more attention they get. Ever seen these displays when tragic victims are elderlies???

Yes, society has a fetish with violent death!

[BubberMiley]

Yes, society has a fetish with violent death!

Isn't that why you want to see United 93?

[scribblet]

Much of this heat over the flag is uninformed hysteria. I had lunch yesterday with a group of ladies, most of whom thought it was awful that the 'flags' were not lowered. They had no idea that it was only the flag on the peace tower, and that it reverting to traditional protocol.

Obviously the media doesn't make it clear, and more obviously people believe everything they read in the papers.

[BubberMiley]

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

I don't understand the sick fetish you have for sweeping generalizations about "the Left."

[Black Dog]

It's more than a little more disgusting when coming from the Liberals who are responsible for sending the troops to Afghanistan in the first place.

The same Liberals who recently re-affirmed their support for the mission. Again, then: what political point is being made here?

Or this new way of placing anything from flowers to teddy bears on the sites of death by strangers! There's no consistency in this public show of "grieving." I guess whomever gets your fancy or whomever gets the most prominent death coverage by the media gets this type of attention from compulsive mourners. And the younger the dead the more attention they get. Ever seen these displays when tragic victims are elderlies???

Yes, society has a fetish with violent death!

You know what, betsy? For the first time, I agree with you. As a society, we've become so removed from the realities of death that we treat every single life lost as a huge tragedy. In the past, dealing with death on an up close and personal basis was a fact of life. Not so much anymore.

[BubberMiley]

As a society, we've become so removed from the realities of death that we treat every single life lost as a huge tragedy. In the past, dealing with death on an up close and personal basis was a fact of life. Not so much anymore.

I'm not sure what you mean by "removed from the realities of death." What, we don't die anymore?

[shoop]

I can't understand his fetish for using the word fetish in debate when it isn't really appropriate or applicable?

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

I don't understand the sick fetish you have for sweeping generalizations about "the Left."

[geoffrey]

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

I don't understand the sick fetish you have for sweeping generalizations about "the Left."

Agreed. My apologies. It's just that its mostly the left that wants to watch this on TV, so I made a generalisation. It should be most people that have a fetish for this death thing are from the left, not most left-wing people have a death fetish.

I can't understand his fetish for using the word fetish in debate when it isn't really appropriate or applicable?

From: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (dictionary.com)

fet·ish also fet·ich

n.

An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices.

An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence: made a fetish of punctuality.

Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.

An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation.

[Black Dog]

I'm not sure what you mean by "removed from the realities of death." What, we don't die anymore?

No, but we've reduced our experience with death to the point where its become almost abstract. Think about it: for past genarations, death was something that happened in the home. People died in their homes and the preparation of the body, funeral and grave was left in the hands of family. Today, when someone dies, they'll usually do so in the hospital, after which they'll get whisked away top the mortuary where their body gets embalmed, decked out in their Sunday best and propped up like a mannequin for a quick viewing and then whisked off to the cemetery. Indeed, we have a whole industry designed to hide death from us, even if it impacts us directley, such as in the death of a loved one. So when death occurs in an untimely or sudden manner, its a tremendous shock, an abberation. The resulting spectacle is less about honouring the dead as "keeping their memory alive" in order to stave off our own fears about death itself.

[shoop]

So I guess you are making a fetish out of using the term fetish. It really isn't appropriate...

From: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (dictionary.com)

fet·ish also fet·ich

n.

An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices.

An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence: made a fetish of punctuality.

Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.

An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation.

[KrustyKidd]

People, there is a thing called tradition and ceremony. The military has their traditions and ceremony and those who were one of them will always be one of them. As they come off the aircraft, before they become the families, they are given a goodbye. If you want to take part in that ceremoney, then join the frickin army and do it. If you want to watch play ceremony then watch a movie or the changing of the guards, if you want real stuff then become one of them and then, when they do their real ceremony, you will get to have first hand sight of what is going on.

If you want stats on how many and how they died, read the paper as the military reports the deaths. And, if the families wish to have tv crews filming and giving play by plays, they can request them at the gravesite or, charge tickets if they want. the main point is, this is a military show, not a civillian and, if Harper wished it to be wide open to the tv of the country, the military would more than liekly tell him where to shove it.

You know what really has my goat? All the assholes demanding full coverage who won't even watch it when death #227 is carried to the hearse. A tired cameraman with a reporter doing the old coverage between smokes with the footage not even going on tv. It's the flash, the zing, the pomp or, the politics. In any case, the military will never send them through a meat grinder but the media will as it becomes blasee' Our heros are too good for that and your need to see the military do a sacred ceremony is extremely secondary.

You want figures, you got 'em. You want to see the cermony? Rent Gardens of Stone. You want dead bodies? Go to the internet and, if you want to honor these guys, write a letter and then saying you think the Taliban should be kiled and they are doing a great job and to keep it up, if you own a busineess, give them free stuff till they cant take free no more but don't pull this shit. Honor them on November 11 like you should honor my fahter, his father and me and, all the guys who ever placed themselves on the wrong side of a gun. Particularily those that died. That's after you let the military and the family have whatever ceremony they wish - public or private.

Hey, you want to honor these guys, push for better helecopters, more recruit to get them all more home time. More money to attract more Arab speaking soldiers, more bribe money to find the bad guys etc. This flag crap is hubris. To all those that 'support the troops' when was the last time you called up the local base and said "hey, any wife of a soldier that needs her lawn mower tuned can call me" or fixed her car for free? Never. This is all posturing.

Wanna show support, send money and cap the cake hole. They will appreciate it more. Save the tears for the 11th.

[betsy]

Yes, society has a fetish with violent death!

Isn't that why you want to see United 93?

Please go back to that topic again, and read...carefully. Obviously you've missed my point about United 93.

And this time, don't forget to remove that Liberal tin cap when you read....and please, switch off that Liberal selective-hearing/reading/understanding device....or you'll never get the point.

[betsy]

Still, I personally can't understand this sick fetish the left has with seeing bodies unloaded off planes.

I don't understand the sick fetish you have for sweeping generalizations about "the Left."

NDP + Liberal + their supporting media + their avid supporting public = the left!

Btw, you'd be happy to know that according to polls, family-privacy-and -dignified-grief-be-damned, 66% supports the media should've been allowed to besiege and exploit the home-coming of the slain soldiers in Trenton.

That figure must comprise the combined figures of NDP and Liberals who did not belong to Harper's 41% popularity figure.

[betsy]

Much of this heat over the flag is uninformed hysteria.

I agree. The automatic quick-reflex response is through emotions. Which is being expertly manipulated and played with. The way the media and the spokespeople for the opposition parties sensationalize and deliberately twist it around to make it sounding bad and "un-feeling" of the government to ignore the pleas of a parent who had given up and lost a son surely strikes a cord.

But if one really sits down and reflect on the facts...it's blatant who's the "un-feeling" and irresponsible cad bent on exploitation!