Canada set to announce biofuel strategy

[Kiraly]

Canada set to announce biofuel strategy

The Canadian government will soon announce a biofuel strategy that will mandate that all gasoline sold by 2010 must contain 5 percent biofuel, a renewable energy source, Agriculture Minister Chuck Strahl said on Wednesday.

"I will be rolling out our biofuel strategy in the days ahead and I'm working with Environment Minister (Rona) Ambrose to ensure that farmers actually benefit from our commitment to 5 percent biofuels," Strahl told a news conference in Ottawa.

[geoffrey]

Burning food is hardly a reasonable solution to the energy crunch. I thought we were looking for sustainability. Ethanol is a ridiculous concept, people starve so we can drive our SUV's?

Now if they are talking about McDonalds grease in cars, thats a different story. I don't know how I feel about smelling like fries all day though.

[CoachCartman]

I haven't wrote on here since the election. I read here almost everyday.

Burning food is hardly a reasonable solution to the energy crunch. I thought we were looking for sustainability. Ethanol is a ridiculous concept, people starve so we can drive our SUV's?

Now if they are talking about McDonalds grease in cars, thats a different story. I don't know how I feel about smelling like fries all day though.

The above post got my blood boiling, so I guess its time to post.

I hauled a load of grain the other day to an inland terminal. I had 19.351 tonnes on the truck. Price is 96.00 bucks per ton. Deductions from that were freight; have to pay to the freight to the nearest port, Vancouver here, no matter where it goes, 632.07.....Elevation; elevator charges, 215.01.... Cleaning; making it export standard, 73.20.... Drying; drying it to standard, 211.22.....They added on 71.44 for a trucking premium; a little extra to entice me to haul there.......My check for that load was a whopping 654.50. After the dockage and Shrinkage were subtracted, my load was down to 17.86 tonnes. 96.00/ tonne X 17.86 = 1714.56.

I thought I'd show an example of an actual grain ticket so some people would see how it worked. As for a picture of 19 tonnes of grain.....20 L ft x 8 W ft x 5 H ft.

This grain was not feed for animals. Somebody will be eating it someday.

In Canada, most people do not seem to care whether there is an abundance in grain stores. If the farmers don't have a crop people, assume we can buy it from anywhere else. After the starving in Europe, during and after WWII, they learned their lesson. That is why they won't lower their government support for farmers.

In order for farming to survive in Canada, farmers must find new markets. People say diversify. We have.

They say don't seed certain crops cause the price is bad. There is only so many options and we use all we can. Crops must be rotated or they can get diease.

One of these new(er) markets is the bio feild. The former government, in its wisdom, was giving out grants for ethanol plants. All went to eastern Canada except one. That one is no where me. Farmers around here are building their own. Initial price for feed wheat (bottom of the barrel, not fit for human consumption) is 4.50 a bushel. Thats 165.34 a tonne. If the Conservitives follow through and make the Canadian Wheat Board optional ( don't have to pay the freight then to Vancover). My load of 17.86 turns in to 2032.69 with the deductions taken off.

2032.69 or 654.50......which would you rather have, keeping in mind that this grain sold to the ethanol plant would never have entered the human food chain????

Bio diesel; Sask already pooched the cat on that one. ADM was looking at building a bio plant in Sask. They wanted some tax concessions from our NDP government, they said no. Now it is being built across the border in the U.S.A. So now we can export our canola to the States instead of processing it right here.

[Hicksey]

Bio diesel; Sask already pooched the cat on that one. ADM was looking at building a bio plant in Sask. They wanted some tax concessions from our NDP government, they said no. Now it is being built across the border in the U.S.A. So now we can export our canola to the States instead of processing it right here.

The NDP refused to fund a cleaner and slightly more efficient fuel than petro-diesel? Wow.

I thought only the Green Party were more ardent environmentalists. By this decision you would never know that.

[shoop]

People starving???

The people who do go hungry in Canada are not going hungry as a result of limited supply.

Biofuel is a winner on so many levels. More demand for Canadian Wheat, more income for Canadian farmers and less consumption of petroleum reserves.

Burning food is hardly a reasonable solution to the energy crunch. I thought we were looking for sustainability. Ethanol is a ridiculous concept, people starve so we can drive our SUV's?

[geoffrey]

People starving???

The people who do go hungry in Canada are not going hungry as a result of limited supply.

Biofuel is a winner on so many levels. More demand for Canadian Wheat, more income for Canadian farmers and less consumption of petroleum reserves.

Burning food is hardly a reasonable solution to the energy crunch. I thought we were looking for sustainability. Ethanol is a ridiculous concept, people starve so we can drive our SUV's?

Nope, but its not a sustainable energy program. Eventually, and not so far away, we will need all of our argiculture power to feed ourselves and the world. There is barely enough food in the world as is, hence why billions of people are under nurished. Burning it all to fuel our cars is simply a near-sighted appeasement offer to the environmentalists.

[shoop]

Why exactly is it unsustainable?

We have had the "agricultural power" to feed the world for years. However, supply issues internationally has caused many of the problems with global starvation. Why are we going to begin feeding the world in the "not so far away" future?

Who is saying anything about "burning it all"???

Nope, but its not a sustainable energy program. Eventually, and not so far away, we will need all of our argiculture power to feed ourselves and the world. There is barely enough food in the world as is, hence why billions of people are under nurished. Burning it all to fuel our cars is simply a near-sighted appeasement offer to the environmentalists.

[geoffrey]

Why exactly is it unsustainable?

We have had the "agricultural power" to feed the world for years. However, supply issues internationally has caused many of the problems with global starvation. Why are we going to begin feeding the world in the "not so far away" future?

Who is saying anything about "burning it all"???

Nope, but its not a sustainable energy program. Eventually, and not so far away, we will need all of our argiculture power to feed ourselves and the world. There is barely enough food in the world as is, hence why billions of people are under nurished. Burning it all to fuel our cars is simply a near-sighted appeasement offer to the environmentalists.

You use grain to make biofuel. That's how your burning it.

We don't have that much excess agricultural power, not as much as you think anyways. More demand for our grains and oil seed is going to drive up commodity prices at home. Do you really want to be paying that much more for bread?

[shoop]

I guess your silence on feeding the world means you concede that point...

How again does using grain to make biofuel lead us to burning *all* our grain?

Hmmm, there is of course a tradeoff when we create demand for wheat. How much more for bread is worth it for lower gas prices and fewer greenhouse gas emissions???

You use grain to make biofuel. That's how your burning it.

We don't have that much excess agricultural power, not as much as you think anyways. More demand for our grains and oil seed is going to drive up commodity prices at home. Do you really want to be paying that much more for bread?

[geoffrey]

I guess your silence on feeding the world means you concede that point...

How again does using grain to make biofuel lead us to burning *all* our grain?

Hmmm, there is of course a tradeoff when we create demand for wheat. How much more for bread is worth it for lower gas prices and fewer greenhouse gas emissions???

You use grain to make biofuel. That's how your burning it.

We don't have that much excess agricultural power, not as much as you think anyways. More demand for our grains and oil seed is going to drive up commodity prices at home. Do you really want to be paying that much more for bread?

I'd rather pay it in gas prices. Supply push on bread prices means there isn't much as people would like to buy. Not good.

Having higher prices on things we shouldn't use is better than having higher prices on something that we should all consume more of.

What am I to say about feeding the world? There are lots of starving people. Not enough food, we could send some over there... of course in a market solution... I'm not turning socialist haha. Trade it for their cheap gas.

Way better than burning food.

[speaker]

I haven't wrote on here since the election. I read here almost everyday.

Burning food is hardly a reasonable solution to the energy crunch. I thought we were looking for sustainability. Ethanol is a ridiculous concept, people starve so we can drive our SUV's?

Now if they are talking about McDonalds grease in cars, thats a different story. I don't know how I feel about smelling like fries all day though.

The above post got my blood boiling, so I guess its time to post.

I hauled a load of grain the other day to an inland terminal. I had 19.351 tonnes on the truck. Price is 96.00 bucks per ton. Deductions from that were freight; have to pay to the freight to the nearest port, Vancouver here, no matter where it goes, 632.07.....Elevation; elevator charges, 215.01.... Cleaning; making it export standard, 73.20.... Drying; drying it to standard, 211.22.....They added on 71.44 for a trucking premium; a little extra to entice me to haul there.......My check for that load was a whopping 654.50. After the dockage and Shrinkage were subtracted, my load was down to 17.86 tonnes. 96.00/ tonne X 17.86 = 1714.56.

I thought I'd show an example of an actual grain ticket so some people would see how it worked. As for a picture of 19 tonnes of grain.....20 L ft x 8 W ft x 5 H ft.

This grain was not feed for animals. Somebody will be eating it someday.

In Canada, most people do not seem to care whether there is an abundance in grain stores. If the farmers don't have a crop people, assume we can buy it from anywhere else. After the starving in Europe, during and after WWII, they learned their lesson. That is why they won't lower their government support for farmers.

In order for farming to survive in Canada, farmers must find new markets. People say diversify. We have.

They say don't seed certain crops cause the price is bad. There is only so many options and we use all we can. Crops must be rotated or they can get diease.

One of these new(er) markets is the bio feild. The former government, in its wisdom, was giving out grants for ethanol plants. All went to eastern Canada except one. That one is no where me. Farmers around here are building their own. Initial price for feed wheat (bottom of the barrel, not fit for human consumption) is 4.50 a bushel. Thats 165.34 a tonne. If the Conservitives follow through and make the Canadian Wheat Board optional ( don't have to pay the freight then to Vancover). My load of 17.86 turns in to 2032.69 with the deductions taken off.

2032.69 or 654.50......which would you rather have, keeping in mind that this grain sold to the ethanol plant would never have entered the human food chain????

Bio diesel; Sask already pooched the cat on that one. ADM was looking at building a bio plant in Sask. They wanted some tax concessions from our NDP government, they said no. Now it is being built across the border in the U.S.A. So now we can export our canola to the States instead of processing it right here.

CoachCartman, Since the wheat in your calculation is feed wheat, it would eventually enter the human feed chain. The fact that another farmer gets a bigger share of the value of the grain than the producer doesn't take away from that. If the cattleman or hog grower has to compete with biofuel plants, it would just make for another broke farmer. The alternative is to try to organize an effort to get higher returns from the value spent for food in the supermarkets. That is my impression of what the Wheat Board is trying to do. More of the same would be a good step.

Did the Sask Government give a reason why they couldn't give tax breaks to a bio-fuel plant? Perhaps they like a lot of us are fed up with subsidizing the big companies that turn around and gnaw on the hands that are feeding them. Farmers should pay attention to the companies that have gotten tax breaks to establish themselves in rural communities over the years, particularily in agriculture and forestry related industries. It seems like once the tax breaks run out so do the entrepreneurs.

I sympathize with your frustration at your return on your load. The railroad company makes as much money for hauling your load in a freight car with other farmers grain as you get for growing it. The elevation etc charges from the elevator were pretty close to that. So much for the idea that not owning our own elevators would be a good thing for us eh? The worst part is that the flour mills, breakfast cereal makers, meat packers, retailers wholesalers etc. are making record profits selling our food to consumers. I don't think that adding another market to the mix is going to help until that imbalance is corrected.

[Hicksey]

People starving???

The people who do go hungry in Canada are not going hungry as a result of limited supply.

Biofuel is a winner on so many levels. More demand for Canadian Wheat, more income for Canadian farmers and less consumption of petroleum reserves.

Burning food is hardly a reasonable solution to the energy crunch. I thought we were looking for sustainability. Ethanol is a ridiculous concept, people starve so we can drive our SUV's?

Well, yes and no.

Biofuels are a good thing overall. The do burn cleaner than unleaded gasoline. But, while biodiesel has proven to be marginally more efficient burning than petrodiesel, ethanol actually produces less energy than gasoline therefore by adding it to gasoline we reduce the observed fuel efficiency of our vehicles.

So, while I think that both blends of biodiesel (vegetable or animal fat based) are a Godsend in the battle toward the cleanest vehicles possible, because you have to trade some efficiency for your emissions savings I think that ethanol needs to be treated more as a stop-gap measure until cleaner fuel technology presents itself. Or start switching our cars over to diesel. Diesel technology is quick making diesels the cleaner technology in addition to it already having been the more efficient of the two. With 15ppm ULSD coming online later this year, 0ppm ULSD by 2010, and particulate filters I think diesel is now the way to go until electric or hydrogen technology can be developed.

[geoffrey]

Hydrogen and electric are pretty much environmental lies as well.

Hydrogen as a fuel only produces WATER!!! YAY! Couldn't be happier. Except that the process to create hyrdogen gas takes a large amount of electricity produced from fossil or nuclear fuels.

Same with electricity. Go ahead, plug in your car, and watch that coal plant produce your fuel.

There is a bigger picture to all these alternative energies. Most of them are no better.

[Hicksey]

Hydrogen and electric are pretty much environmental lies as well.

Hydrogen as a fuel only produces WATER!!! YAY! Couldn't be happier. Except that the process to create hyrdogen gas takes a large amount of electricity produced from fossil or nuclear fuels.

Same with electricity. Go ahead, plug in your car, and watch that coal plant produce your fuel.

There is a bigger picture to all these alternative energies. Most of them are no better.

Which is best in your opinion?

[geoffrey]

Status quo, its the cheapest of all of those mentioned and it's not like it has any more impact on the environment like I outlined.

[hiti]

Oh for heavens sake..... Chucky is pulling the wool over everyone. The Liberals have had the biofuel strategy in the works since 2000 and provided the funding to get the industry started. So now Chucky Cheese comes along and makes like this Liberal biofuel strategy is his very own idea. Seems like all this present government has are warmed over Liberal policies and ideas with a slight twist to make them sound different.

Take note of the following:

Seven projects from across Canada will receive funding to build the country's ethanol future. The Government of Canada selected the companies' proposals for construction of new fuel ethanol facilities as part of a competitive process under the Ethanol Expansion Program. The recipient companies are as follows:

Commercial Alcohols, Inc., Varennes, QC

Husky Oil Marketing Company, Minnedosa, MB

Husky Oil Operations Ltd., Lloydminster, SK

NorAmera BioEnergy Corp., Weyburn, SK

Okanagan Biofuels Inc., Kelowna, BC

Seaway Grain Processors, Inc., Cornwall, ON

Suncor Energy Products Inc., Sarnia, ON.

Expanding the availability of fuel ethanol will help address climate change and create new economic opportunities for Canadians. Ethanol produced from grain reduces greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions that contribute to climate change by up to 40 percent compared to gasoline. All gasoline vehicles manufactured since 1979 can use ethanol blends of up to 10 percent. "These contributions will help provide the capital and confidence needed to make these plants a reality," said the Honourable R. John Efford, Minister of Natural Resources Canada. "By working together with the private sector to increase production of ethanol-blended gasoline, the Government of Canada will ensure that our transportation sector will reduce GHG emissions that contribute to climate change." "This is a very exciting time for the ethanol industry in Canada," said the Honourable Bob Speller, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. "This is a positive announcement for Canadian agriculture, as these plants will create new markets for our farmers, boost our rural communities and support regional development." The 750 million litres of annual fuel ethanol capacity planned by these projects will more than quadruple Canadian production (currently about 200 million litres per year), increasing supply to almost 1 billion litres. There are currently more than 1,000 retail locations selling ethanol-blended gasoline in Canada. The seven projects will produce fuel ethanol from grain (corn or wheat) using proven technology. The Government of Canada is also actively working with industry to research and develop new technology that would produce ethanol from agricultural residues (including straw and corn stalks) and forestry byproducts. Ethanol produced with this technology is expected to result in even greater GHG reductions - from 60 to 80 percent compared to gasoline.

The funding under the Ethanol Expansion Program is part of a larger bio-fuels strategy that also includes the extension of the National Biomass Ethanol Program, research and development under the biotechnology component of the Technology and Innovation Strategy, and an investment in biodiesel.

The first round of the Ethanol Expansion Program has a total allocation of $78 million. Funding for this program is part of the $2-billion commitment to climate change action made in Budget 2003. The Government of Canada has committed more than $3.7 billion to climate change programs and to the development of leading-edge technologies over the past five years.

[blueblood]

Also something like this helps boost the economy too, those plants need workers to process and distribute the biofuel, how can anyone not like that part of it >less freeloaders, but alas this will not put a dent in the ag income crisis as this demand would only boost prices by a few cents, also it will pay off in energy dividends as once the biofuel is in circulation it will pay for itself as you will be using biofuel to grow fuel over time and cutting off our dependance on fossil fuels, the fossil fuel industry won't hurt as you can export fossil fuels, there's a potential for a lot of dough to be made off of this, too bad with current government policy the farmer will get the short end of the stick again, personally i think part of a solutions will be royalties of 10 cents on the dollar straight to the farmer off of every sale of ag products in the chain and the gov't setting up crown corporations to undercut the huge agribusiness corporations, gov't implementing supply management systems for wheat and oilseeds, and if a person has a problem with their food prices rising, buy Co-op brand food and if that's too much go grow a garden or buy a deer tag and a fishing liscence, look if you don't support agriculture and run us into the ground stay the hell out of the grocery store, cuz thats one hell of a convenience to be able to go to a store and buy food off of our backs

[Nocrap]

Also something like this helps boost the economy too, those plants need workers to process and distribute the biofuel, how can anyone not like that part of it >less freeloaders, but alas this will not put a dent in the ag income crisis as this demand would only boost prices by a few cents, also it will pay off in energy dividends as once the biofuel is in circulation it will pay for itself as you will be using biofuel to grow fuel over time and cutting off our dependance on fossil fuels, the fossil fuel industry won't hurt as you can export fossil fuels, there's a potential for a lot of dough to be made off of this, too bad with current government policy the farmer will get the short end of the stick again, personally i think part of a solutions will be royalties of 10 cents on the dollar straight to the farmer off of every sale of ag products in the chain and the gov't setting up crown corporations to undercut the huge agribusiness corporations, gov't implementing supply management systems for wheat and oilseeds, and if a person has a problem with their food prices rising, buy Co-op brand food and if that's too much go grow a garden or buy a deer tag and a fishing liscence, look if you don't support agriculture and run us into the ground stay the hell out of the grocery store, cuz thats one hell of a convenience to be able to go to a store and buy food off of our backs

The first round of the Ethanol Expansion Program has a total allocation of $78 million. Funding for this program is part of the $2-billion commitment to climate change action made in Budget 2003. The Government of Canada has committed more than $3.7 billion to climate change programs and to the development of leading-edge technologies over the past five years.

Thank you Hiti. I knew that I had heard of this program before when I was reading Chuck Strahl's "announcement" and was going to search the net for archived press releases.

It's definitely a move in the right direction, and am glad that the CPC recognize the Liberal initiative as a viable environmental stategy. It may be sometime before we see any significant results, but we shouldn't just scrap it until we at least try.

I think that the farmers marching on Parliament Hill may have caused a bit of panic for the new government so they had to come up with something fast.

However, the FARMERS STILL NEED HELP and we still NEED KYOTO. Nice try Mr. Strahl but unfortunately most Canadians can read and most people connected to the industry know that this is not a "new" idea. Now go back to your office and give farmers something they can take to the bank.

[Hicksey]

Oh for heavens sake..... Chucky is pulling the wool over everyone. The Liberals have had the biofuel strategy in the works since 2000 and provided the funding to get the industry started. So now Chucky Cheese comes along and makes like this Liberal biofuel strategy is his very own idea. Seems like all this present government has are warmed over Liberal policies and ideas with a slight twist to make them sound different.

Take note of the following:

Seven projects from across Canada will receive funding to build the country's ethanol future. The Government of Canada selected the companies' proposals for construction of new fuel ethanol facilities as part of a competitive process under the Ethanol Expansion Program. The recipient companies are as follows:

Commercial Alcohols, Inc., Varennes, QC

Husky Oil Marketing Company, Minnedosa, MB

Husky Oil Operations Ltd., Lloydminster, SK

NorAmera BioEnergy Corp., Weyburn, SK

Okanagan Biofuels Inc., Kelowna, BC

Seaway Grain Processors, Inc., Cornwall, ON

Suncor Energy Products Inc., Sarnia, ON.

Expanding the availability of fuel ethanol will help address climate change and create new economic opportunities for Canadians. Ethanol produced from grain reduces greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions that contribute to climate change by up to 40 percent compared to gasoline. All gasoline vehicles manufactured since 1979 can use ethanol blends of up to 10 percent. "These contributions will help provide the capital and confidence needed to make these plants a reality," said the Honourable R. John Efford, Minister of Natural Resources Canada. "By working together with the private sector to increase production of ethanol-blended gasoline, the Government of Canada will ensure that our transportation sector will reduce GHG emissions that contribute to climate change." "This is a very exciting time for the ethanol industry in Canada," said the Honourable Bob Speller, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. "This is a positive announcement for Canadian agriculture, as these plants will create new markets for our farmers, boost our rural communities and support regional development." The 750 million litres of annual fuel ethanol capacity planned by these projects will more than quadruple Canadian production (currently about 200 million litres per year), increasing supply to almost 1 billion litres. There are currently more than 1,000 retail locations selling ethanol-blended gasoline in Canada. The seven projects will produce fuel ethanol from grain (corn or wheat) using proven technology. The Government of Canada is also actively working with industry to research and develop new technology that would produce ethanol from agricultural residues (including straw and corn stalks) and forestry byproducts. Ethanol produced with this technology is expected to result in even greater GHG reductions - from 60 to 80 percent compared to gasoline.

The funding under the Ethanol Expansion Program is part of a larger bio-fuels strategy that also includes the extension of the National Biomass Ethanol Program, research and development under the biotechnology component of the Technology and Innovation Strategy, and an investment in biodiesel.

The first round of the Ethanol Expansion Program has a total allocation of $78 million. Funding for this program is part of the $2-billion commitment to climate change action made in Budget 2003. The Government of Canada has committed more than $3.7 billion to climate change programs and to the development of leading-edge technologies over the past five years.

Ethanol should be a stop-gap solution and nothing more. While some gasoline engines with what are referred to in the auto industry as "flexible fuel vehicles" can use up to an 85% blend of ethanol, ethanol contains about 40% less energy than gasoline so they will use significantly more of it. Unless engines are redesigned to run reliably at compression ratios of between 12:1 and 14:1 (currently they run between 8:1 and 9:1) automobiles will not get anywhere close to the fuel mileage they do now. There is much work to do to make high ethanol blends worthy of using.

Oh, and you forgot about Commercial Alcohols, Chatham, ON which has secured funding to double its capacity by 2008.

[Black Dog]

What I find...odd, perhaps?...about the shift in focus to biofuels is this: for the past few decades, urban growth patterns across Canada have seen prime farmland gobbled up by development, development which is only made possible by widespread automobile use. So it's interesting to me that they aren't looking at promoting better models of development, but trying to find "environmentally friendly" ways we can continue to carry on as usual.

[Hicksey]

What I find...odd, perhaps?...about the shift in focus to biofuels is this: for the past few decades, urban growth patterns across Canada have seen prime farmland gobbled up by development, development which is only made possible by widespread automobile use. So it's interesting to me that they aren't looking at promoting better models of development, but trying to find "environmentally friendly" ways we can continue to carry on as usual.

In a sense, I agree. Large cities like Toronto have suffered from horrible urban planning. But it also comes from developers not building space concious designs that people can afford. They are building condos like mad in Toronto, but most of them are unaffordable at prices of $750,000 to $2,000,000.

[Black Dog]

In a sense, I agree. Large cities like Toronto have suffered from horrible urban planning. But it also comes from developers not building space concious designs that people can afford. They are building condos like mad in Toronto, but most of them are unaffordable at prices of $750,000 to $2,000,000.

So: does teh CPC have an affordable housing strategy?

[CoachCartman]

CoachCartman, Since the wheat in your calculation is feed wheat, it would eventually enter the human feed chain. The fact that another farmer gets a bigger share of the value of the grain than the producer doesn't take away from that. If the cattleman or hog grower has to compete with biofuel plants, it would just make for another broke farmer.

The cattleman or hog grower will be able to purchase the "left overs" from the biofuel plant cheaper then buying whole grain. There will be lots and it is high in its nutritional value.

The alternative is to try to organize an effort to get higher returns from the value spent for food in the supermarkets. That is my impression of what the Wheat Board is trying to do. More of the same would be a good step.

Well, my impression of the Canadian Wheat Board (CWB) is that it is geared for selling grain to export markets. It does not look for the niche markets in Canada, it looks more for the big bulk markets. Here, in western Canada, it is illegal to sell your wheat to a mill. Why can farmers in Ontario and Quebec sell to whoever they want legally, both in Canada or the U.S.????

[speaker]

CoachCartman, It would be reasonable for the tailings from the ethanol process to be high in food value, but I think by the time most of the energy has been taken out of the grain there would be proportionally less total feed available for livestock feed. I would worry that as fossil fuels go down the carburator there would be an increased demand for grain for more fuel at the same time as food prices start to rise because we aren't able to pour the fertilizers and herbicides, (fossil fuel derived at least) to our crops.

I think as Black Dog points out the misuse of agricultural lands is going to further exacerbate the situation and we should be looking for solutions like better development models, own production hydrogen or electricity from renewable means, and leaving as much of the crop residue in the soil as possible for future food production and for carbon sequestration.

Perhaps a branch of the Wheat Board could be established which would deal with Canadian needs, if such isn't already the case.

[quinton]

Still looking for ways to continue growth in energy consumption because people still want population-growth-for-economic-growth is absurd.

No form of energy is environmentally sustainable at present population and usage levels.

Not even solar or wind. They have environmental problems too.